The last time we were all together was in real life, in person, and we're back to our normal state, which is staring at each other, through a bunch of boxes on a computer screen and talking through microphones.

Yes. This is another episode of Card Ladder confidential coming at you with Josh and Chris from Card Ladder.

If you are new to this show, this is how we start all of these episodes with a cold open question. No one knows what's coming at them.

And I'm just going to zing it, and we're going to, we're gonna get a response here. So the cold open question, gentlemen, had the lead with just, like, the background context that last week, a Jay Cutler card sold for $12,000.

His twenty twelve black finite. Now we've seen it before with other cards and categories and sets.

I think about like PMGs. I think about rubies. I think about, like, exquisite stuff where the sets identity becomes just as important, if not more important than the player itself.

My question is, what are the indicators that you look for when you think a set might reach that status? Pretty deep question.

I'll just, like, pause, and I'll let whoever wants to jump first start the conversation. I've got a take, but it's, like, a few levels deep. So I don't know if it's alright. Let me just I'll just start. I'll just, like okay.

So what what I immediately think about this is actually a tension, I think, that the black finite has, and it's something I think about because I'm a huge black finite and just prism black and optical vinyl and select black one of ones.

Like, I'm a huge fan of all those cards, but something I think about is, you know, one of the main theories and it's just a theory.

It doesn't mean that it's correct. But one of the main reasons why something like the PMG green out of 10 in basketball or 15 in football or, the the rubies out of 50, the star rubies out of 50.

One of the one of the main reasons given for why these are so, pricey, and even players who, you know, don't, by themselves, command a market premium, but because they're in this set, they do.

One of the reasons given for that is because there are set builders.

There are people who will spend exorbitant amounts on a Carrie Kittles card or something. Nothing against him. But they'll they'll spend way more because Kittles belongs to this star rubies set or this PMG green set.

And so even though the person buying this card isn't necessarily a Kerry Kittles collector, they are a collector of this set, and they're trying to complete the star rubies or the PMG green set or something.

And here's the the tension. Well, nobody's completing black finite sets. Yeah. They're they're all one of ones.

Nobody's completing that set. And nobody's completing optical vinyl one of one sets. Nobody's completing select black one of one sets. So the so I just I think that this actually tests that theory a little bit.

This this idea that, that if it's a if that that set collecting is something that raises the price of something, that that that maybe we're we're so if I were to try to bridge the gap, maybe we're maybe set collecting means something a little bit different in the ultramodern era.

Maybe set collecting is no longer getting, let's say, twenty twelve person football has 300 or 400 basic cars. I don't know how many. But maybe set collecting does no longer means that.

Maybe it means, you know, getting black finites of one of ones of things that that are in my own custom curated set, like like like the project that Josh is working on with, you know, hall of fame level, skills position players from the golden era of fantasy football.

So I I just think I I that's a tension I have is that, that that traditionally, when we look at how sets elevate cards, the primary reason given is that there are set builders who are competing against player collectors, and it's just this big mix of people competing.

And and it's really fueled by set collecting, but but I've I'm not sure if that applies in the context of, like, a twenty twelve prism black finite one of one.

Josh, comments, reaction? I'll just pick up the easy answer. It's the first year of Prism. It's seen as, like, the best card of the individual player, that's not their rookie and in and in many cases, better than their rookie cards.

Like, for example, I would value the Antonio Brown twenty twelve Black Friday more than any of his rookie cards because his rookie card selection is bad.

And I think maybe the Jay Cutler collector that picked this up might feel similarly.

They might they might enjoy this more than, like, a super factor rookie or whatever. Present just the best. And basketball doesn't have a black from 2012, so I think there's, like, this extra urge to, like, get a one of one from 2012.

And so there just might be more people flooding over to grab those 2012 football first years, the pylons and the, black finites, which I understand.

And so, you know, that just seems like the simple answer to me. Prism's the best shiny product. It's the first year. I I actually really love both of these answers in a way. I think, Josh, yours is the most straightforward and obvious.

And Chris, yours is got has me, like, maybe wanting to toss one more question out. And I know it's a cold open question. There shouldn't be follow ups, but I'm very intrigued by this.

Knowing that the set collector in the nineties influenced the supply and demand and the pricing of these cards that exist today, and we see these values, in all these sales that pop up and these prices continue to increase for the most part.

In this era, the Panini era, I think we can call it maybe the era of the one of one where there's one of ones on top of one of ones. Do you think that same behavior in terms of set collecting and pricing goes up?

Or does that not happen because at the end of the day, most collectors are going to be chasing and going after these one of ones that have eluded them over the years.

And I'll make a disclaimer. I know one of ones existed in the nineties, but it was nowhere near as prolific as it is in today's collecting.

Terrific question. That's exactly where my brain went when I had a few seconds to think about, like, the implication of this all.

So I I acknowledge the existence of set collectors, obviously. You can look on Instagram and see people building sets, PMG red sets, PMG green. Well, there's one very prominent person who's been building a PMG green set for a long time.

That's how difficult it is to build, star rubies, etcetera. They definitely exist, and, I think their impact on the market is undeniable, especially at the level of, cards of players whose base version would be considered commons.

But, I am not a set collector, And, I've tried set collecting. I tried putting together the 2018 prison basketball luck of the lottery gold set, and I've made decent bit of progress, but it just didn't excite me.

It just it didn't I I gave it a genuine, good old fashioned college try, and I just didn't like it. I, however, am a type collector.

I like to collect I'm a best cards collector. I'm I'm a, honestly, person who has, sometimes when the trade off is presented of a good card of a great player or a great card of a good player, I choose the latter.

That's pretty much how I would describe my Christian McCaffrey collecting philosophy. So I am a type collector.

I I want I I actually don't care about getting every black font at one of one, but I really care about getting it for a specific player that I collect or a, you know, whatever, a a specific group of players that I collect or something like that.

So I I I very much understand the motivation behind wanting to get one of my PC players, one of my favorite players, first ever Prism Black one of one.

I I I really intuitively grasp. I can feel it on a visceral level how how important that is as a collector. So I relate to the type collecting.

I I wanna get that prison black one of one. And I and I have to think outside the box a little bit to understand and put myself in the mindset of of how passionate set collectors can be. That's a good way to warm up.

And what let's just, like, dive into, you guys wanna talk about sports cards as an investment? You you get into the investment theory of everything. I was just having this thought, and I, you know, thinking about this word in investing.

And I just thought about it for a minute. And I was, like, made a purchase. And a lot of purchases I make at this point, it's like, I buy the cards because I love the cards and I want the cards.

But it's when you, like, when you're spending thousands of dollars on a card, like, I don't know. You have to have some sort of, like, investment, thinking going into that, to justify the cost or at least I have to do that.

But, you know, if we talk about investing publicly, it's like there's, like, a negative connotation around it. So maybe, like, let's kick off this investment side of this chat, and maybe, Josh, I'll kick it to you.

Like, do you feel that? And if so, like, why is investment treated like such a maybe dirty word or taboo word in kind of the collecting circles that we typically interact with?

Probably because investing is a synonym that people like to use for what they actually mean, which is flipping, you know, in the short term.

And so, like, collectors are kinda keen into that phrasing of, like, oh, I'm a I'm a long term investor.

I'm here for the long haul. And then they see that card. You know, you sell it to that person. You feel like you're placing it with a collector or someone that's gonna hold it, and then they sell it at auction a month later.

So I think we've just been burned by the over usage of that term so much that we just now associated it with something bad.

Whereas if we focus on the term itself investing, it it could mean a few different things. It doesn't necessarily mean, like, I'm buying this card to invest in it and make money in the future. That's obviously part of it.

But, like, for example, the three of us are invested in this industry. We're investing time, money, you know, basically our lives into building businesses, investing in the cards, having skin in the game, etcetera.

It's like, I think investment can be multiple things. It's just been bastardized and taken by people trying to take advantage of the space.

So that's probably where the negative connotation comes in. I wanna before we move over to you, Chris, Josh, the you're investing your, like, professional livelihood and your hobby is cards.

You're investing your money. So it's, like, all of your investment, outside of, you know, your family and friends is, like, pretty much in the hobby.

Like, do you think about, like, how do you do you separate, like, your work and your cards in the buckets in terms of, like, you thinking about your financial portfolio, or is it just kinda like all one in the same?

I am heavily over indexed on sports cards, both financially, time wise risk, all of the above.

I that's why I actually, I would probably criticize the other end of this more where there's like people trying to tell you, how to navigate the space and then you never actually see anything they're buying.

You have no idea if they even own cards. It's like, how can you tell me to, you know, buy or sell specific things when you don't actually have any skin in the game yourself? I'd actually take the, the other side of that.

I'd I'd prefer to hear the advice of people who are just a little bit nuts. Like, they just they spend way more than they should on cards because it it's like that person clearly knows they're willing to take in the risk. You know?

Is is that so I do my favorite story posts from you are when you're like, you put something out there because you it was, like, very apparent you just, like, saw something that, like, made you feel, like, a negative reaction, like, advice from someone who's, like, not showing you anything or whatever, but, like, is preaching to everyone.

Is that, like, when you have, like, that visceral reaction enough where you, like, take it to your story sales?

Is it is it come from a place of, like, dude, I'm, like, spending everything I got, every ounce of energy, all my money in cards.

Like like, who are you to go, you know, give your advice to anyone else? Is that, like, where it's coming from, or is it maybe something different?

You said it, not me. Chris, what what's your what's your reaction in all this? Well, yeah, I think, I think Josh hit the nail on the head with the top especially with the top line, and now I'll come in with some tangential details.

That's that's kind of the flow that we've established in this episode already. Yeah. I have three.

Okay? I have three reasons why I think the word investment is taboo. And I don't intend these to be comprehensive or exhaustive. I think there are many other reasons, but these three jumped to my mind, and I feel like three is a lot.

First one is because there actually are a lot of finance professionals or finance adjacent people in card collecting, and they and also, like, real estate professionals and business professionals and people for whom the word investment has a more technical definition and also that it sort of means something more traditional.

And and cards at best are a, quote, unquote, alternative asset and that the nature of behavior relating to buying and selling them for the purpose of making money is probably more accurately described as speculation rather than investment.

And I see that you've noted that sort of speculative nature too in the show's notes. So I think you're you're you've already anticipated that point, but, but that that's one of the first things that comes to mind.

I remember when I used to do a lot more posting about sort of the perform the price performance of cards, I would get a lot of people who had backgrounds in finance sort of reaching out to me, and they just they had a visceral dislike for measuring cards in terms of how their prices has have performed over time.

Especially, they didn't like when it was being compared against the performance of stocks or more traditional asset classes, even like real estate, things like that.

So I I think there's a level of, expertise, professionalism, professional background that just sort of doesn't like mixing the word investment, which has a technical and a more refined definition with their hobby of collecting cards.

They I I I think, like, the more accurate word is that they would say is probably speculation, that that, that an investment is something that that probably has some sort of intrinsic revenue generation that, that is that relates more to a business or something that has clear measurables, something that that is that is a revenue producing item or entity, and that cards arguably have some sort of intrinsic value generation, hypothetically, if you, like, sold it, rented it to a museum or something.

But really, there's the the value is is, is is is personal utility. It's collecting. And so, like, that that that's, like, a really fine technical point, and and there's a lot more to it than what I just sketched.

But I think that's that's something worth acknowledging is is is the is the finance the the technical distinction that that people familiar with finance might make there.

And also just that that they generally don't like intermingling a word like investment, which means something pretty serious, in their professional backgrounds with with their collecting hobby.

The second point I'll make is that I think, when the word investment comes in, it's it's a threat that prices are gonna increase.

It's a it's a threat to collectors who are trying to collect cards that if investors are coming in that their end goal is to make things worth more money than when they bought it so they can sell it for more.

And and that that's a threat. That's just that is basically at its core, that is a threat to collectors who who are angling to build collections, and they can build better collections if cards are cheaper.

So there's the the the presence of investment as a philosophy and as an approach to this market is is interfering with their ability to build the best collections that they can.

Now the flip side of that coin very briefly is that those collectors also experience price increases in the value of their collection as the result of investors coming in too.

So there's two sides to that coin, but but, but that's why investment can sort of be taboo. And then the final the third point is that we it it collectors have a really hard time relating to people whose end goal is to sell cards.

The investor's end goal is to sell their cards. It's to turn cards into money and to do other things with the money.

Maybe to buy more cards, but certainly the end goal is to sell cards. And collectors, the end goal is to have more cards. The the the collecting itself is the end goal for a collector.

That's maybe one of the cleanest ways to make the distinction between a collector and investor. An investor is somebody whose end goal is to turn cards into money, and then a collector's end goal is turning money into cards.

So there there's few there's a few points. Very good points. I love the breakdown and kind of the framework around it.

Maybe before we jump off of this topic, I'm curious. I know I know you all spend a lot of money on cards. Chris, most specifically because you talk about what you're buying on your podcast, which I've commented.

I appreciate your transparency. And, Josh, I just see your collection and know you spend a lot of money, based on what you collect.

Maybe as we close this out, like, how how does, like, the way you think about your participation in sports cards in the market shift when it's when you're investing so much of that, personal, finance into sports cards?

Like, where's does the line blur between kinda, like, your passion for sports cards and, like, sports cards as a long term investment? Like, we look at portfolios. Maybe, like, how do you process those two things? You love sports cards.

That's why you're spending so much money on it. But at some point, it's like, well, this is this is money that's gonna maybe help out my family down the road type of thing. Maybe talk about, Josh, how how you think about it.

And you've you've been buying big cards for a long time, so maybe, maybe break it down. Yeah. I mean, I do have kids and a wife and a family, so I probably think about this a little differently than maybe some other situations.

So on this specific topic, I usually think about having just, like, a backstop for for my, you know, future in my life, financially. And then, like, literally, like, pretty much everything else goes to cards.

So, like, my backstop is pretty conservative, I guess. I don't I'm not gonna say any type of number or anything, but, like, you probably have a number in your head of how much money you would need to, like, feel safe in the future.

And maybe you're not hit that number right now, but you're working towards it or you have some sort of, goal to, like, build up to that.

So I usually think about it in terms like that. But, like, literally all of my free time and money, that's not you know, I'm not, like, buying cars or I'm not buying any of this other kind of stuff.

It's it's literally just like, how do I squeeze by this month and tell myself it's okay to spend another x thousands on cards?

Chris? Yeah. I completely agree with that. I've I've I approach it the same way. And, and the the only thing I'll add is that, a, life is short. Yes.

And, b, collecting gives me a genuine rush, gives me genuine excitement, makes me feel as alive as any activity that I can think of that I do, gives me a boost of energy to pop out of bed in the morning if I know that there's, like, a negotiation that I'm working on on a card or something.

And I can't wait to see if there's been any new DM activity in between me going to bed and, me waking up.

So that's that's the other part that I'll add to this is that, is that, man, I love collecting cards, and I've, you know, I'm I'm just like Josh.

Like, literally, above and beyond the basic responsibilities and even sometimes not even fully respecting those. I I everything else is is really focused on just making a great collection within my means.

If, a lot of people, like, see our cards at at National, for example, and they'll just, like, subtly hint to Chris and I, like and you guys are spending a lot of money.

You like, what's your long term financial thought about this? And both of us are just kinda like, there isn't much thought to that. We just really, really want these cards.

It's really that simple. And we just some with a lot of people, it seems like we're crazy. And we, at least for me, I kind of enjoy that part of it. I, I've always run the theory of whatever you're doing with your money.

If people look at you and they think that what you're doing is insane, it's probably more right than wrong, especially if you have some passion behind it. That was great. I appreciate all the transparency and thoughts.

I wanna move over. It seems like we're doing this every month, but we're just coming off the national. And you know what? It's a good time to bring this back up because I wanna ask you guys, why is this happening?

What the hell is going on? So we're talking we got the industry tab here up in card ladder. Looking at July's number, we have $308,000,000 in card ladder sales, which we're talking about last month in June.

All time high at 306. We've surpassed that. We're going up, baby. Cards to the moon. Hashtag invest. We're really excited.

Although, I'll say this. I was at the national, and it it just it felt different, and it felt different in a good way to me. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I have a lot of confidence in what's happening right now.

I'm curious on your all end. What factors do you think are driving this surge in the industry right now? Maybe, Chris, you wanna jump in and start us off?

Well, one thing that I've noticed, I think this happened in 2021 and 2022 and that it's happening now, is that there are a handful or maybe a few dozen of new people, especially, well capitalized people, people who say things like looking to deploy a few million into sports cards or something like that.

And they, get hooked up with a marketplace or an auction house, and they start receiving advice like, hey.

Look. Here's the next big auction that's coming. Here are the best cards that we think are gonna be in it. If you're looking to get some exposure to cards, here's where you should be targeting.

And they start targeting them, and all of a sudden, you know, you can get, like, a few auctions in a row where you just get these massive, massive outlier results.

And I think one plausible explanation is just what I said, that there's just a a few new big fish who have come in who are looking to spend, you know, half a million in a particular in one particular auction, maybe more.

And they're receiving advice and feedback, from people who are more experienced, people who maybe work in the industry or friends who have brought them in, And, they end up, you know, spending a ton in a short amount of time to give themselves the exposure that they want.

And then I think they also end up finding out really fast, like, oh, this is really fun.

And, like, you you start uncovering this huge social media world, and you find out pretty quickly that, that this is a very sort of, open access community where there's there's not there's not there's no gatekeeping. You know?

If you if you come on to Instagram and you splash around, you know, a handful of really big cards and then you start firing off some of your thoughts on Instagram and, like, on your stories, like, you can build up thousands of followers very, very quickly.

And people will be interested in what you have to say, and people will be approaching you to sell you cards and or trade and to get to some of the stuff that you've been able to procure, and you can start building it.

But it's I mean, this is a very, very, low barrier to entry to to start building up.

I mean, if you're coming in as a well capitalized person, you can also come in as a thoughtfully curating collector who, you know, is it has novel discoveries about cars that are interesting and so on and so forth.

But I think I think that's I'll just stop there. I think that's one factor.

I think we I think we've had an influx of maybe a few dozen, big fish who are are really competing heavily and are realizing quickly that they really enjoy this space and and that it's it's a lot more fun than just, you know, allocating some money to an alternative investment class or whatever, but that is actually this is actually something that that really engages them.

Josh, outside of the addition of high note in high net worth individuals putting their money in sports cards, are there any other observations you made, you know, pre Athanational or Athanational, that have you thinking about kind of this surge in the market?

Yeah. That's, I think, the number one answer that Chris gave. And those people that we know and we're thinking of are all sports cards. The other answer is Pokemon is just, like, obliterating records left and right.

And it's actually if there were Pokemon content creators listening to this, they'd be, like, screaming at us that it's they get all the credit for this, basically, the the rise in the total volume spent.

I wanted to add one more thing, though.

The 308,000,000, this isn't, like, some sort of, future pump to, like, invest all your money in cards. But, like, 308,000,000 is still just, like, a a very small number compared to many other industries.

Like, we were Chris and I were talking at the national, like, how much money people spend on houses and just how many houses exist and how many ones cost over a million and just, like, the market cap of homes and bit and Bitcoin.

So, like, if two or three people come from those industries into here, we're gonna we're gonna notice.

Like, you're just you're gonna see 300 to three ten because those there's just so much money that that's in other industries that people may wanna just, like, reallocate into this for for a test run for a month, and it's like, oh, we just went up 10,000,000.

I wonder why. So this has me thinking, and this maybe gets into COVID bubble era versus today, what's similar and what's different. I think about the cast of characters then.

Dude, we could literally spend the rest of the time talking about the guys that were famous or quasi famous that were talking about sports cards. I'm looking at Kendrick Perkins, Vegas Dave. I mean, the list goes on and on.

What since we're still talking about high net worth individuals and probably celebrities too getting into this and think industry in general is more promotional around those, individuals in the space maybe than it was when we're in the pandemic.

We were just at home, and people were just maybe seeing these, celebrities ripping packs through Instagram live.

I'm I'm interested in learning kind of your observations on, like, how is this era right now that we're we're we're in, you know, without Pokemon, but just sports cards.

Like, what are you seeing that's similar to, the pandemic that kinda causes you to put the sound the alarms a little bit, and maybe what's, different?

Chris? Yeah. I think one I I let me give one of each. I think here's here's what's different.

I think I think, in 2021, 2022, and 2020, the people who are coming in were really ground level. They were people returning to the hobby, maybe who had collected card one cards once as a kid and just sort of it was the pandemic.

People were staying at home. They were looking for things to do, and, they got interested in, you know, breaks.

Sort of, watching breaks filled the, need to watch live sports, which weren't really happening at that time. And you could sort of look at the types of cards that were bubbling at that point, and it was a lot of base stuff.

It was, you know, Tim Duncan, nineteen ninety seven ninety eight, Topps, paper, PSA 10. You know, like, literally, that card is down, like, 98% from its peak.

It was a lot of stuff like that where it was like, these are cards that, you know, if a a plausible explanation for why these would be the cards that we're being targeted is because this is stuff that people coming back to the hobby without much sophistication would look at as things to buy.

Oh, I remember this one and, like, oh, the price of this one is skyrocketing, and so I let me let me hop on this before it's too late type of thing without really careful consideration of how population reports relate to the total pool of buyers and how, you know, supply and demand are ultimately gonna shape over time.

And I think this time around, you can look at, I don't think it's so many I don't think it's such like this this, return, this this this grassroots sort of return to collecting.

I think this time, it's more, people who have been around for a little while, who gain more exposure, maybe sit were sitting on the sidelines for a few years, and or, like, high net worth individuals who are coming in, who are being advised, and who wanna deploy capital.

I think they are, I think we can look at the type of cards that are being targeted now, and we can see that that it's it's not so much, you know, the the base PSA 10 high population stuff that's that's running.

But instead, it's it's a little bit more focused on rare, difficult to obtain cards.

Then you also have to acknowledge the repacker presence and the repacker centric cards like Kabooms and Downtowns, which also are collected heavily too.

But, but there's a lot of market pressure on those as as those are those seem to be really popular hits for for repack products. So I think, like, there's is a is a different type of buyer.

It's a buyer targeting a different type of card. And and so I I think those are I think I think that's a that's a difference. But and then here but here's what I noticed that's the same.

The the similarity that I wanna call attention to is that in both cases, there's there's just a bit of a lack of humility among people who are calling their shot when they look at how the market is shaping.

And, you know, we're definitely in a red hot bull market right now. And there's just the excess of self congratulatory social media posting is something that I noticed that is very similar from back then and it's similar today.

Everybody's a genius. Everybody's Warren Buffett. Everybody, you know, is is is just, dispensing advice and giving their opinions on the on on why, you know, we're just scratching the surface and there is no top and blah blah blah.

And that's something that I see that's very similar back then and now.

The cards are different. Some of the players are different in the market, but but that the the this sort of this this arrogance is I I I think it's that that's a big thing that I see in both environments.

Jump on in, Josh. Yes. I have to triple down even though I'm only the second to speak on what he on what he just said at the end there.

There's a lot of that going on, especially from people who are in the new wave that we've been talking about. It's like, the you know, they don't even have, like, the perspective of the 2021 rise and crash.

So it's like it's speaking just from a in the current trajectory since I joined six months ago, it's only gone up. Therefore, it will only go up forever.

And there's a lot of that. That's very similar. I also have noticed that the Pokemon rise is the equivalent of the 2021 sports rise. Like people are spending $5 on cards with population over 10,000.

It's it's actually quite incredible. If you pull up the the ladder page on card ladder and you sort by market cap, it's like MJ Fleer, Mickey Mantle 1952, and then, like, the most random Pokemon cards.

I mean, they're probably not random. People will be screaming at me that they're, like, the the best Pokemon cards of all time, but they're, like, they were printed in the last ten years.

Oh, so sorry. No. Just keep the ladder. Go back and go to sort and then do market cap. Switch that, yep, to market cap.

And it's like MJ Fleer, Mickey Mantle. Oh, Umbreon twenty twenty one. Like, which one sticks out? Oh, Pokemon Pikachu with gray. So the the this Pokemon stuff is more equivalent to the 2021 rise. It makes me far more nervous.

And the sports stuff is definitely more one on ones or, you know, rare high end rookies, which is good, but, like, that stuff still went up and then back down even in 2021. So the the over exuberance and arrogance is what I would echo.

And then the only thing I added is this little Pokemon nugget. Dude, this PSA 10 Pokemon Pikachu gray felt hat full art PSA 10 $1,100. 41,000. 41,000. Yeah. That's like that's like Griffey rookie levels, dude. It's crazy. That's nuts.

I wanna talk about some cards, but before we do this, I wanna talk about just, like, is is there any factoring in of, like, strong market right now, maturity of collectors who have been building collections, who maybe got back in in pandemic, but are still here?

Like, do you factor in, you know, their confidence and investment and commitment in building out their collections?

Do you think that has any which I would imagine would be, like, the most pure positive impact in this number, but I don't know. Is that something that you it's it's hard to, like, quantify.

Right? But would you consider that as you're thinking about just, like, this era of the market that having a maybe a positive impact with the growth? Since the market got red hot, but but really more so since the national.

I mean, I remember 2021, 2022, like, people would run by me and many others, I'm sure. Do you think I should buy this now? You know? Like, what what do you think about this purchase I'm contemplating?

And then that went silent for years. And now, like, in the last, like, week or two, I've gotten probably 15 or 20 people since the national just being like, hey. Like, I'm really excited. I'm thinking about buying this card.

What do you think? Like, like, the level of excitement. And this and this is coming from, you know, long time collectors. So the level of excitement about jumping in but also apprehension is that we're in a red hot market right now.

You know, that's that's one of the paradoxes, the ironies of a red hot market is that, you know, when the market gets hot, we all kind of get an extra surge of energy or excitements, and all of a sudden we get motivated to start buying cars, and it's just sort of builds an inertia.

And, but, anyway, yeah, I I've I've I've been chuckling when, when people have suddenly been asking for buying advice again after, like, years of nobody wanting it.

Now it's back. So when you know we're we're heating up, talking about heating up, I wanna talk about some three examples. And I picked these cards mostly based on social media reaction of these sales.

The first one, Josh, and specifically, I wanna ask you about this one, is the sale of the o eight zero nine, UD exquisite emblems of endorsement, LeBron, game use patch card out of 10, SGC 8.

5 out of 10. So this card sold for on Golden for $408,000 in in March 2023. BGS nine copies sold for 55,000. So, dude, what's up with that, man? You're the LeBron guy. Help me understand this. What's going on?

I do. I can't explain this one. This is a so there's a few, I won't call them random, but there are there are a few inserts within the exquisite run that are definitely way more valued than the rest, and this would be one of them.

Mhmm. This one's highly valued in the Asian community because the patch symbol, like, means something in Chinese, I believe. I think it's like sky or something. So, like, this one's always been very popular.

It's only numbered to 10. And, you know, a lot of the LeBrons are numbered to 23 or sometimes 50 or 25. So, like, the fact that this one's 10, it does make it, quite a bit more desirable, a little bit harder to get.

Saying all of that, it doesn't make any sense. Click the one below it, and it should give you an estimated value of the b g s nine.

I believe it's much lower than what it's like. Yeah. Click on that guy. Yeah. I mean, come on. I think we might have an explanation on well, it's the patch, dude. No, dude. Come on. Look at the patch on the SGC. It's the same card.

I know. Chris, do do you, this LeBron, like, what when you saw this sale price and, you know, dug around a little bit, like, what was your reaction? You don't see that little bit of red creeping in there in the top left?

Three color three color, baby. I think that's worth $400,000. I don't know. Also, if one in which Josh called my attention is he's much better at evaluating autographs than me.

If you kind of look close with that autograph, that's that's a very generous 10. But this is on par with this set. These are usually pretty smudgy. Yeah. Well, look.

I mean, this this isn't this this card is one of several that had literally an eight, ten, six x experience from that particular auction, which I I wanna start, just circling back to the observation I made earlier sort of about a few big fish coming in and deciding to deploy a bunch of money in one auction trying to pick out the best cards, and this is obviously one of them that was that was running in that auction.

So I'll give you let me give you, two other card examples that, we don't need to bring up on the screen or anything.

I'll just tell you very quickly. One of the other shocking results that eight 0. 5 x, its previous sale from 2023 was Steph Curry's 2009 Bowman Black out of 48 in the grade of BGS nine.

That card was $12 in 2023. It sold for over $100 in the same auction. So this LeBron, this eight this literal eight x ing of the previous BGS nine comp, that's not unprecedented in this auction.

That Curry actually went up by even a slightly bigger multiplier. And then also, there this is also happening at a at at more of a grassroots level.

Again, too, it's starting to happen. I saw Splendid Sports Cards point out that the 89 upper deck Ken Griffey Junior PSA 10, that card peaked at around 5,200 during 2021, and then it came way down to, like, the $2,000 range.

And that card is is on a rocket ship again. It's already exceeded $4,000. So, like, even a card like the 89% Griffey PSA 10 high population card, that card is is rapidly approaching, it's it's pandemic heights as well.

So, like, this this is not isolated. Like, this this LeBron is a terrific example that somebody spent almost half a million dollars on this card when the prior sale was an eighth of that.

But but this level of multiplying, it it happened several times. Let's move over to this Brady twenty thirteen PSA 10, pop two, Tom Brady Gold Prism, the second year. Just wonderful card.

2013 shine is unbelievable. I probably did not see more I saw more, like, reaction in posts about this card. It's probably because I'm surrounded by Brady collectors and shiny Brady collectors at that in my through my hobby experience.

This card sold in June '22 for the and this was the nine five sold for $72. And now in 2025, we're at a 160. Man, I'm I'm, like, the last one that is going to, like, say, prism is overhyped or overrated.

Like, I'm a I I waved the prism flag, very proudly. But I see a sale like this, and I'm just like, wait a minute. This one looks a lot like what was was happening during the pandemic.

What was your reaction just I don't know. Both of you buy into Prism stuff, like, seeing a sale like this in Prism, Tom Brady. Like, what were your thoughts when you saw kinda where this one went?

Same as the last one. Like, these are just, they're just kind of made up numbers to me at this point. Like, it's hard for me to argue that it's overvalued or undervalued or whatever.

It's like it's a PSA 10. It's an early Brady. Two or three people felt strongly that this is it, and they need it. They'll they'll never get another chance. You know? I don't know. 160. It just seems, random enough.

It makes it make I don't know, dude. I there's I don't really have an explanation. The last PSA ten sale was almost a year ago on the nose. It was three hundred and sixty eight days ago, and it sold for 40,000.

So this card more than quadrupled in the space of a year. So the and and I'll just for listeners, this 08/06/2024 sale was alt sold on alt, confirmed paid according to card ladder, and this new monster 160 k sale is golden.

Does what what role does marketplace play into this? Because, this sale is, you know, astronomical.

The last sale of LeBron was a golden sale. Like, you know, the job of golden in any of these other marketplaces is to promote and find buyers. Like, that's the nature of what they do, but, like, I don't know.

Like, is that a factor in this in these types of sales? Do we have to should we be looking and evaluating that? I'm, like, scrambling to say something more clever than my last let me put it like this.

I own stuff You know, people know I own a lot of LeBron stuff. And so it's if we're talking about these 400 LeBron sales, these high prism, high prism stuff, I think it's important for me to mention, I do own a lot of this stuff.

So any of any of my opinions are obviously biased towards these specific cards. I would love for that LeBron to be worth $400.

You know? It obviously, like, makes it obviously makes the rest of my collection worth 10 x and, you know, one of those, like, hey. If that's worth this, what then what what's my card worth?

You know, the famous, line. It's like, it would be great, but I'm you know, as an owner of these cards, I'm I'm quite skeptical that if three more of them came to auction, we'd see similar.

And to your point, like, maybe it was the timing or it was the auction house. I generally don't give much credit to one auction house selling for more than other.

We just don't have the data to support something like that, especially at this level. It's usually, like, in the range of, like, a two to 10% difference at best.

So, you know, I don't I wouldn't put much weight into the auction house. We'll we'll just drop the last example, which is the PMG 97 Kobe, graded authentic in '21, which is prime Kobe heat up market time.

This thing sold for 78 k, at Fanatics Premiere. It sold again in July 25 for a 144 k Fanatics Premiere. Same song, different verse.

Is that is that where we're at with, this Kobe Sale? Anything different? The timing of the, twenty twenty one Kobe sale, that's that was, almost perfectly synced up with his hall of fame announcements, I believe.

So I think just to underscore your observation about, the the how how hot Kobe's market was at the moment of that sale.

In the context of looking at a Brady that four x in a year or the LeBron exquisite that eight x in two years or the, the Curry, Bowman, black that 8.

5 x in two years, a Kobe PMG red two x in four years is modest by comparison. But, but also this Kobe has more copies than the cards we talked about.

The Brady gold prism has 10. The LeBron emblems of endorsement has 10, the co the Curry, Bowman, Bowman black out of 48 has 48, and this Kobe has 90. So I don't know. I think that's quite high, but, it's the first PMG, man.

I don't know. What do you it's tough, man. It's I honestly I've I'd be I'd be stunned if if, it's six months from now and, we're not looking back on this and saying, yeah, things were running out of control.

Yeah. That's where I'm at. Alright. Let's, segue as we're kinda nearing the end here. I wanted to I one of the observations I made in my content was about the national was, the business side of things.

And just like I felt like there was a maturity in the hobby based on my observations from the national, top maybe it was just, like, me having great conversations with, individuals who are fully invested in the hobby, new technology, new ideas.

I I felt I left the national experience feeling very motivated there, which I was not expecting. And you you both are business owners in this space.

I'd love to dig into maybe, like, what were your observations on the corporate side like? Did you have similar or different feelings based on kind of what you were seeing at the show this year versus, what you had seen in years past?

Trying to see who's, off of mute. We'll we'll we'll toss it to Josh. Sure. There was definitely a lot more corporate space. We all noted that just in where we were situated.

We we, like, literally couldn't even see a dealer table from where we were. Granted, we were in sort of, like, the corner of the of the corporate area, but the corporate area itself was definitely a lot bigger.

There was more of a presence, and it felt like the booths were stepping it up a notch in terms of, wow factor and, you know, budget allocated towards the marketing side of the the booths.

So that was I think maybe you're talking about that. The only thing I would say on the other side is there I I'm hesitant to give this criticism. But in 2021, I noticed a lot of businesses pivoting into the hot thing.

Like, they would pivot their entire business model into NFTs, for example. Like, oh, we've got our NFT, and you could now vault through an NFT or trade them or whatever. That was, like, the hot thing you had to say.

And the tech industry is guilty of this. You know? They'll just say we've added AI. Doesn't even matter what it is. We'll pivot our whole business model as long as we've got the word AI and marketing.

And I noticed the same thing here with repacks. So I just I I wanted to throw that out. I I sense that the corporate area is, like, jumping into this repack thing and, like, pivoting their entire business to support it.

And I I noticed that from a few areas. So I just wanted to call that risk out that that feels similar to the NFT boom of 2021. Great observation. I am I guess, we could talk about we could probably do a whole another episode on repack.

So maybe it's good not to, like, dig in unless, Chris, you have anything that you wanna comment on on the repack front or just same same question regarding kinda your observations of, what's happening from a hobby business perspective?

Well, do you remember 2020 and 2022 was more of a proliferation of businesses. There was businesses doing everything. There was Yeah. Tokenization of things. There were pop up grading companies, like Fractional.

Fractional. Like, there was there was there were lots of very ambitious reaches, to sort of because it really felt like any anything would just print money at that time and, like, a lot of those businesses crashed.

And but the thing that makes it hard to evaluate businesses in this space is that a lot of them are vanity projects.

A lot of businesses in this space are not held back by their inability to create revenue or profit because these businesses are being invested in by people who mostly just want to own a business in the space.

And making money obviously is a goal and turning a profit is is obviously the the ultimate measuring stick, but they're able to keep these businesses flush with investments for a long time because these are people who are very successful, very resourceful, have had either great success or are connected to people who've had great success in other avenues of life.

Collecting cards. They want to have a presence in it that extends beyond just collecting or speculating or investing or whatever.

And so they want to get involved in the business level. And so they continue to operate businesses that may or may not make money.

And you and, normally, the yardstick of a business, whether a business continues to exist and operate is eventually, it needs to generate revenue and then eventually needs to get get into the black.

And a lot of these businesses don't need to do that because they're they're at the end of the day, they're vanity projects. So I think that makes it tricky. I think that makes evaluating businesses in in the hobby tricky.

But, but I do agree with your observation that there's there's a continuing maturation of businesses. There's a there's a maturation of focus, in terms of what businesses are focusing on.

So the interesting thing about repacks is that, there there are a lot of things to be said about them, but but one thing is that they definitely do they definitely turn a profit.

So, you know, these these these are the businesses that are focusing on those are succeeding at the at the core level of of making a profit.

And and that's that's quite a bit different, I think, than the businesses that were oriented around tokenization and NFTs, during 2021 and 2022.

I don't I don't think that many of those ever really made any money. How as we kinda close this topic out, just one more.

Just how important do you think it is to have, like, in this wave to not have those companies that we all like, I can think of 10 in my head where I could just spew them out that we're here, and they're not here anymore.

How important do you think it is to have stable hobby business, to have new startups popping up, for the market itself.

Do you think there's any direct correlation with the values of sports cards and the stability of the sports card market with the companies in the industry that's kind of supporting, anything to do with sports cards?

Like, do you think that there's a direct, correlation between kind of one or the other? I think with the obvious candidates like Fanatics and PSA and BGS, yes.

Outside of that, like, I just don't know how many other ways you can make money in a collectible space like this. Like, we're kinda running out of ideas and ways to squeeze out money from people.

That's why everyone's so excited about the repack thing is it's, like, a pretty easy way to, like, make money very quickly and, you know, take advantage of, like, the gambling society that we live in now.

But other than that, it's, like, you know, holders, authentication, manufacturer.

I there's just, like, not there's just, like, not that many ways to Storage. Right. It's like AI almost has, like, infinite use cases, so I can understand AI businesses wanting to tailor to that.

There's just so many untapped use cases in every industry, but sports cards is like it's two and a half by three and a half pieces of cardboard.

I you know, it's like, there's not so many ways to innovate. That's kinda the the beauty of our industry, or at least I thought so in the past was like, there's just no innovation on purpose.

This is, like, intentionally supposed to be, you know, a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be, like, bring us together.

And, so, like, I just don't get as excited about, like, oh, here's the new hobby business that's gonna revolutionize the game or some stupid social media post about, like, tomorrow we're changing the game.

And it's like, hey, dude. You're you're you're making a repack. We get it. Chris, any closing remarks on this? I want this episode to end on that earliest this segment.

Alright. Perfect. Before this episode ends, I've definitely been following along and you whether it's Instagram or just your own content, you've all you've been on a craze picking up sports cards, which is great.

That's what we're here for. I wanna maybe end this episode where I give each of you the space to talk about one sports card that you picked up recently and maybe just let listeners in on why you bought it, why you like it.

And whoever wants to go first and is very excited to talk about their card can just jump on it.

I know Josh is backing away. Chris? Yep. I'll go first. And, I haven't really answered any question directly, so why start now instead of doing Don't do it. Yeah. Instead of doing one, we're gonna do two cards.

Okay. This is for the Stag and Slabs audience. Oh, there we go. Stag and Slabs is one of the content reservoirs that features collectors who discuss totally certified. Yes. And after I took Look at that shine, by the way.

I can see it on the screen, and that's that sounds special. The ash holofoil shine is amazing. And after I took an interest in these, I went back and I listened to several stacking slabs episodes with collectors discussing them.

So I'm showing so here I picked up two at the show. I picked up the 2016 Jokic blue one of one and the 2017 Jokic blue one of one, and then I paired it with his, his rookie year, his 2015 totally certified mirror blue one of one.

So, and the thing that makes this a really special run for Jokic is that, totally certified basketball only had three years of the hollow blue one of one, which are the three that I showed, and it debuted for Jokic's rookie year.

So his rookie year totally certified blue one of one is the first blue one of one totally certified, and then the trio is the entire run.

This is this is the three years of the blue one of one right there. So I picked up, those two, Yokshas in a trade with, Waldorf stories, Grant, who he picked them up from MK Sports Cards.

And MK Sports Cards had been sitting on them for years, and I tried to pry them out unsuccessfully for a long time. And then Grant's got a Michael Jordan card that MK really needed.

And then, and then that's what that's that's the only thing that will free a card from MK's clutches is, is an MJ Grail. So that's how that was able to transpire, and I graded them on-site.

That you have to be the only I've never seen anybody with any player run like that in those three sets, so that is quite the feat. Josh, any any cards you wanna talk about?

I have a pretty decent pile from national that I haven't fired off on crossover because we've missed the last two. And so I'm picking from that pile, and I'm going to also cater to your audience and and choose this one.

I didn't actually get this at the national. I was at the national when I bought it, but it was on Facebook. So I don't know if that counts as a national pickup. It counts.

Yeah. It's the 2019 Todd Gurley black finite. I've been I've been just trying to get all of his black finites and optical vinyls for a long time and was bumping my head up against the wall, trying to just find anything I could.

And I got, like, desperate, you know, just, like, going to every corner of the universe trying to find some of these. And I'd found one on Facebook and just made a stupid offer and picked it up.

It's not the most expensive pickup. You know, I've got some, like, other like, Travis Kelce pickups are probably more expensive, but I love that Todd Gurley one. He's my favorite, fantasy football stud, so excited about that.

I was in a DM conversation about 2019 prism, and we were talking about the parallels and how the golds don't necessarily, do it that much for us. But those black finites in 2019 just hit a little different.

And I was like, that's interesting topic with cards when certain parallels hit more in certain years than other. And I think those 2019 black finance. I think the the kind of nostalgia of the era plays a role in in that too.

But, great pickups. Another episode of card ladder confidential in the can. Covered a lot of ground. Everybody go use Card Ladder. Chris, Josh, appreciate the time. Always fun doing this. Thanks, Brett. Thanks for having us.