Welcome back, loyal listeners of the Stacking Slabs podcast to season two bonus episode 13 of the WNBA card podcast.

My name is Caitlin. I go by at cold lunch cards on the Instagram machine and everywhere else on the Internet, and I'm joined by my amazing cohost, Brett McGrath at Stacking Slabs.

And we're excited to continue to deliver collector driven and community focused content to your headphones, to your radio, to wherever you're listening today.

We appreciate you being here, and we're excited to be, back on the mic talking WNBA, talking WNBA cards. Brett, how are you doing today?

I'm doing well. No. We did not dip because our teams lost, and we'll just I guess, we're talking we'll hit it head on. Our teams lost. But it was time for a break. Caitlin had a little getaway, and, it's nice to get away for a minute.

But I also realized, Caitlin, as we decided to take a pause, it was probably in, like, the most important time in the WNBA, which is fine, but that gives us plenty to talk about today.

So I'm excited to catch up on what's happening, in the finals as we record this. Also, share some perspective of our season as a fan and, most importantly, like we always do, talk about cards in our collections.

How was your trip? My trip was great. Thank you, Brett. And for our Patreon viewers, you may notice, a background that you've seen once before.

I'm back in the Bay Area for a trip. So I'm moving all around the country. My trip was amazing, but, like you said, we did kind of dip, at the perfect timing for our teams. It was a rough ending to the season, and we'll get into it.

But, I'm heartbroken to say the least. There's always next year as they say. I want to we this is like we've been doing these, and it's crazy. We're coming up on the third season of the WNBA card podcast.

And, we've been doing these bonuses episodes that kinda serve as the buffer in between these two seasons, which I'm excited about today's topic and what we'll be digging into.

But wanna just preview going into next week, we'll be starting season three. And, obviously, these conversations wouldn't be possible without you, the listener.

So we appreciate your support, all the messages, mail bags, sharing your cards on Wednesday, all the things you do to keep us motivated to continue the WNBA card podcast.

And also, as we continue to try to grow and scale this brand within stacking slabs, it's really important for us to have support from the outside, and we are really excited to bring on Card Ladder as an official sponsor of the WNBA card podcast going into season three.

It's undeniable. Card Ladder has been such an important tool in the, growth of this show. I use it in every episode. I am constantly digging through the data. Card Ladder is my favorite tech tool in the hobby.

So if you listen to Stacking Slabs content, you know I'm a big fan, and you know I've, bring on, those team members regularly for content because not only do they have a great product, but they're awesome people.

So why don't you get ahead of it? If you're not already, go sign up for Card Ladder and, support the brands supporting the WNBA card podcast. Absolutely. I agree with everything you said there.

A great brand. I use them. I feel like every day I was using them on my plane ride. So, yeah, love the brand. Thank you guys for supporting the WNBA card pod, and we're excited to have you there for season three.

Alright. Caitlin, do you want to we got it. We gotta talk about, oh, the w. We gotta talk about our teams. We gotta talk about the finals.

I feel like we need to talk about the fee exit interview of it all before we almost talk about it. And I can't remember there being a moment from a media perspective that I saw the tweet and I watched it, and I was like, oh my god.

I was like, this is gonna send shock waves. And it was the momentum around it, and it was like a, I don't the the the momentum was insane.

You had people, players latching onto it. You had media outlets latching onto it. And I didn't know what to expect. I wasn't really obviously, the the the reason an injured Fi, who is very passionate, very vocal.

You give her a hot mic at the end of the season. And she's not, like, ever been really controversial, but she's very, adamant and passionate about what she believes in.

And for it to all go down the way it did, I thought we should talk about it, especially because it's your favorite player of your favorite team. And I I my take on the situation was, like, good for her.

Like, this is this it's these moments in sports when you feel like you've got nothing to lose and you communicate what you believe in to drive change and not only do that, but then do it in such a tone that was so measured.

Usually, when we see these, people get very emotional, and, we think about the emotional side outside of, like, the message.

But it was so calculated and so on point. And I think it'll be something that probably, changes the trajectory of what's possible with the WNBA.

So you've mentioned leadership, when talking about Nafissa Collier ever since we started this podcast, and I'm not sure there's a better moment of that in action than what we saw.

So we haven't even really outside of a few messages here and there, we haven't even really got a chance to talk about it. So let's talk about it.

What do you have to say? I'm proud. That's that's what the headline here is that, like you said, Nafisa Collier is my favorite player on my favorite team, and it goes far beyond the play style on the court and the outcomes on the court.

And this is just another example of fee stepping into that role of being a leader, both on the team and for the league.

It was just so fun. I saw the the tweet, the, tweet with the video while I was on vacation. I remember looking over to my partner and saying, look at what fee did in the entire the entire Internet kind of exploded.

Like you said, players latched on, coaches latched on, fines were given out, NBA players chimed in, players from other leagues and sports chimed in.

It was really exciting to see the momentum around players rights and players pay, and I'm just excited to see where it goes.

I think Kathy's on the hot seat and she knows it. And with fee canceling her meeting with Kathy, it raises the stakes even further.

I think, one of the points that I loved out of fee's messaging was if I didn't know what it was like to run a league, maybe I wouldn't feel this way, but I do.

And I love that so much. She just stood on business and all the players backed her up.

There's that graphic going around saying everyone agrees with fee. And it just makes my heart so full to see my favorite player, doing what's something bigger than just basketball.

And I think it just demonstrates I I sent you, I think, a tweet that said, like, Nafissa Collier is Maya Moore's successor in more ways than one.

And this was just another example of that, just being, you know, the leader of the league and pushing things forward.

And I think the entire messaging, it was like you said, it hit. It was very strategic from the WNBA PA, and I was just so excited to see it.

I think these are the conversations that need to be had with the growth of social media, with the growth of the league. They have the players have the leverage, and it's it's about time that they start using it.

So proud of fee, proud of my leader, and excited to see where it goes. Hoping to see some changes at the leadership level and excited to see, hopefully, some sort of momentum moving forward that is beneficial to the players.

So I've had some time to, like, let this marinate, and I know the ending of the season didn't it didn't end the way you wanted to.

And I I the like, this is, like, completely opposite endings, but I'm thinking about the the result after the fact.

I I I watch Nafissa Collier who gets hurt. Her team loses. She doesn't get a trip to the finals, and it's a total bummer. However, no one is going when people think about this season, no one is going to remember that.

People are going to remember the comp press conference and what she did. And it's similar to and it's totally different, but, like, I'm just drawing the comparisons in my mind.

But I think about just, like, me as a Pacers fan and, like, the Pacers not winning, and, that being terrible, and Tyrese Halliburton getting hurt at the end.

But, like, I feel like people aren't people aren't, like, don't have that as a lasting image.

People remember, like, his buzzer beaters and all the good moments. So it's like, in an interesting way, it's like you've got a team that lost who look like the front runner the the whole time, and that sucks.

And people aren't going to call fee or the lengths of failure. People are going to remember this moment and this message because it was unprecedented, and we've never seen anything quite like it.

I'm curious, like, has how are you like, that's that's how I absorb it, but I'm interested to kinda get your response, especially as we kinda maybe get into how the season ended for our teams.

Mhmm. It's tough. I think in this podcast, I've reiterated over and over both in collecting in my fandom that winning is everything. And I do stand by that.

And if I could choose, I obviously understand the weight of these comments, and I think they were necessary. I think I think if we would have won, the comments would have happened. Anyway, I don't think this was just because they lost.

Let me get that out of the way. But I'm disappointed to say the least. I think that the links were the best team in the playoffs. I think they're the best team in the league. I think fee was the best player in the league.

And I think, you know, our hopes and expectations were championship or bust. And to not see that Bull Met two years in a row in heartbreaking fashion is the epitome of Minnesota sports fandom that I'm now a part of.

And, it just felt very unfair, you know, like, last year, game five, controversial last call, lose the finals.

In another world, Fi wins that, the Lynx win that, and she goes home with a ring and a finals MVP. This year, you know, it was the revenge tour.

We were supposed to be back. Everything was slated to to be Minnesota or or nothing. And, you know, that injury struck at a tough time. Once fee went down, my hopes kind of went down the toilet.

I I didn't really have like, I I had some shreds of, like, oh, but they're pulling through, you know, they're up. And but in the back of my head, I knew, without our leader, it's it's not the same team.

Fee was strongest player on our team. She was the person that was, you know, keeping us at the front. And to see her go down, especially with, like, thirty seconds left in the game, just just kinda felt I just felt sad.

Like, there there hadn't been a sadness like that in fandom in a long time. And so while the the game and the result was heartbreaking, I do think Fi's messaging is, like you said, what will be remembered.

And I'm thankful for that because I I can imagine how Fi probably went home and wanted to, you know, soak in her misery of being hurt and not delivering on expectations for herself, for her team, for her fans.

But instead, she she did what what needed to be done, which was to call out leadership and to make a change. So, as much as I hate the outcomes, on the floor off the floor, I'm very happy about about what happened.

This is year two of going through this, and I I'm not trying to pour salt in the wounds. But from your perspective as a fan, what needs to change going into next year? Does anything? From a Lynx perspective or from a league perspective?

Because one is one way longer than a league. Let's stick with the Lynx. Okay. From the Lynx, I think I saw a tweet that said, the links are one Angel Reese away from two championships. And I agree with that.

The links, if you remember in the draft, had the opportunity to draft Angel Reese and traded their pick to the Chicago Sky, which then we drafted Alyssa Peely, who was a good player but just wasn't the same as Angel Reese.

I think offensive rebounds, especially against a physical team like the Mercury, are what bit us in the ass. I think that we need a true big.

I think Elan Smith is a great player, co defensive player of the year. Shout out to her. But she's undersized and everybody knows it. Playing through fee is very important, but she needs some other threat down in the paint.

On the other side, I think the front or the the point guard could use some work. We all know my thoughts on Courtney Williams and how I I love her as a person.

I love, you know, when she's on, she's on. But the inconsistency has been tough to deal with. And she is only in her second year of playing the one guard, And that's a lot of expectations to lead a team to the championship.

So my two points that I think we need to see some changes are, a true post and a true guard, which are not easy to come by.

So wish us luck. The final thing is, if you were watching that Minnesota Mercury game where Sammy Whitcomb ended up making the game time three, I was really disappointed in the coaching.

And I just didn't wanna put that out there because it's not just all on the players.

I found, you know, I rewatch the place so many times and not one single staff member on the Minnesota Lynx bench was calling for a foul when we had a foul to give.

They addressed in the postgame press conference and it sounds like, you know, they understood that that was their mistake and they owned up to it.

But little things like that can change the trajectory of a season and not only a game, but a season.

And I'd like to see some of those details executed by both the staff and the players a little bit better. I think, you know, going into the next year, this this windows, I suppose, that people like to call it, it's still open.

And and we need to capitalize. And, I think it's the same. We run it back the same as we did last or this year, which is championship or bust.

And, I'm hoping for the best, but good god, I don't know how long I can do this Minnesota sports fandom. I'm used to the Wisconsin sports fandom, which is just, like, unwavering winning, just greatness.

Minnesota fans, I'm with you now. I understand the pain. It it's tough. It's really tough. I'll be brief. I have to react to the season end of my favorite team, the Indiana fever.

Man, after that game ended the way it ended, I reflected that I don't think ever in my life I will be a fan of a team that suffers and sustains the volume of injuries that the fever did.

And it was it was only poetic in the worst way possible that Kelsey Mitchell fell victim of the fever injury bug at the end of it. I it was it was the moment that that happened, Caitlin, that I knew they weren't going to win.

Although, they put up a hell of a fight. It took me a long time to get over the Caitlin Clark of it all. It is undeniable. She is the moneymaker. She is what brings in the crowds, her theatrics and everything else. Just her.

She's one of the most interesting sports figures, I think, I can ever remember in my lifetime, and to have her here and to be excited to watch her do her thing. But just an injury plagued season, it just never really got off the ground.

So that sucked. But then I got settled in, and I got bought into everything else that was happening around Caitlin Clark, whether it was Aliyah Boston, really coming into her own.

Obviously, Kelsey Mitchell and everybody else who contributed to that team. So my I didn't quite have this. I I know I didn't have the same sadness as you.

It was a for me, it was like, holy shit. I can't believe they they went that far. And there was a moment where I was like, this group is going to make it to the finals, but that just wasn't meant to be.

So final note for me is, man, I'll never forget. I messaged my dad last season when Steph White was doing her thing with The Sun. And I texted him, and I just said, hey.

Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could get Stephanie White as a coach of the fever? She's something special. And I thought that, and I've always admired her. Obviously, she's got a lineage and legacy here in Indiana.

But to see what she did and overcome adversity and have the team focused, new members coming in and to go as far as they did, I'm very, very optimistic about the future of the Indiana fever.

So really great season. Unfortunately, it had to come to an end, and we've we've got we that that felt that felt therapeutic, Caitlin. That was, like, holding a lot of that in.

How are you feeling right now? It feels good. I think, yeah, the fever surpassed all of my expectations. They were a fun team to watch. They're physical. For a moment there, I thought they had it, Brett.

I when Kelsey Mitchell went down, things kind of, you know, turned sour. But for a moment there, I was thinking to myself, if these if these do this, we're gonna have to have some conversations.

And, it was close. And shout out Odyssey Sims. We've been talking about Odyssey Sims since the podcast. One of, like, my favorite players to watch throughout the playoffs has been Odyssey Sims, and she stepped up.

Without her, you guys wouldn't have been in the same position. And that's the beauty of the w right there, that a player can get cut and come back and make a major difference on a championship competing team.

So what what a fun playoffs so far, but it's not over yet. By the time this releases, I don't think it'll be over. So where where we at, Brett?

Yeah. I I just wanna say this on the Odyssey Sims front, 27 points in her final game coming off the street to be a solid contributor. I totally regret not going after her twenty nineteen optic gold vinyl that was on eBay.

I was like, I look at I think about that all the time. It's like, I should've just bought that. But who I wouldn't have known she would've had the impact she had on me as a fan Yeah.

At that point. So let's talk about the finals. As we're recording this right now, the Las Vegas aces are up two to zero on the Phoenix Mercury. There will be two games. I get here's the start here, Caitlin.

There'll be two more games by the time this episode goes live. Will this be over with, or will they still be playing ball? Oh, boy. This is gonna get clipped, and, like, I'm gonna get absolutely roasted.

I I think they're still gonna be playing. I think that they're the Mercury have a lot left in the tank. They're not a team that really goes away. They're similar to the fever in that regard that you just can't give up on them too soon.

I think AT has a lot to fight for right now. I think this is very personal for her. And, I I could not see the Mercury going away in four, in a sweep.

That being said, the aces are in control. But, yeah, I I still think that the Mercury have a push left in them. Do you agree? I agree. I'm on your side. I can't see a a AT led team getting swept.

It just the the way game one. The way it all went down. And I was thinking about this, Caitlin. I don't know if I have ever seen a player that had had the performance that Alyssa Thomas did in game one.

And we're talking dominant, like, just shy of a triple double, all over the place, impact. What you'd imagine, like, Alyssa Thomas at level 100, what she would do. Like, that's what she was doing, and then she misses the free throws.

And it's like, I can't ever remember really watching a player have such a fabulous game and then just come up short. And I'm trying to gain reason. How did this happen? Like and I don't know. It's like, she played all but one minute.

So was it a fatigue thing? I don't know. But that after that went down, I was like, man, they're gonna really have to mentally recover from that because they likely should've won that game, and it was just a fun to see it.

I'm not sure. Yeah. It's tough. They can call Stewie up and ask how she dealt with it and still won the championship last year.

I'm sure she'll have some advice for them. But I I don't know. Yeah. I agree with you. I just think an AT led team doesn't give up. I think the Mercury have a lot of grit.

Nate Tibbetts talk talks about grit and locker room a lot. And, while the aces look good, they don't look great. I'm sorry. I'm just gonna maybe they'll sweep and we'll come back and I'll be wrong.

But when you're, you know, key players, Dana Evans winning in the finals or in the in the finals, something ain't going exactly to plan is all I'm saying. Is is I I I guess I should have done this.

Is the Dana Evans, are we to the moon yet on her cards? Because it's like, holy cow. Talk about this is what happens though with championship teams. Right? You've got this, like, contributor coming up, like, two levels.

But her play in, like, shot making has just been incredible. Yeah. And every time I'm on I'm at I'm, like, watching, I'm like, was that Jackie Young? Because they have, like, the same hairstyle and the same shoes. And I'm like, damn it.

That's not Jackie Young. Because I'm always cheering for, I'm cheering for personally right now since I don't I really have, like, a dog in the in the game. I'm I'm rooting for Jackie Young finals MVP, Brett. So I love it.

Mind me up. Yeah. That's that's my, kind of, like, agenda. I don't have any cards. I don't have any, like, leverage, I suppose, in her. But she's one of the players that has stuck out to me, and I'd love to see her get her flowers.

So yeah. But Dana Evans and Jackie Young have been two kind of silent assassins that are playing well, while Asia, you know, puts up impressive numbers but isn't quite commanding, the team like like we were expecting.

I I expect that to change going into these next couple games. Asia, I'm sure, will put up, just as impressive numbers in the box score as she does impact on the court. So my expectations. Yeah.

Asia Wilson's Asia Wilson. But when I think about, like, the fever series, Jackie Young Yeah. Crushed us. And then you look at game two and her performance in the fourth quarter, Jackie Young, and it's like we talked about this before.

It's like, what would a Jackie Young led team without AJ Wilson look like? And I I mean, we're seeing what's possible, and it's it's it's fun to see a player.

And I've been following her for a while now because of her her, where she went to school and my allegiance, but, man, it's it I'm I'm glad you kinda hit on the Jackie Young of it all because it's been really fun to see her, take over.

Absolutely. It's it's hard not to get attached to some players in the playoffs based on both their personalities because where he's seeing heightened media attention, but also their player performances on the court.

And so Jackie Young has been the player that really has become sticky to me. And I'm like, man, I'm feeling compelled to buy a Jackie Young card now, so I'm hoping for the best.

With that being said, I don't know. I guess we'll see. Once this comes out, if we look like we're we're gonna we might be, totally wrong. Maybe the ace is sweet, but we'll keep everybody updated.

Anything else on the, finals front before we get into the lead topic, which I don't even think I introduced, poor poor me, poor effort by me, which we're gonna be talking about the psychology of the PC and the origin behind why we're talking about it.

But anything else you wanna hit on on the, finals front?

No. Just excited to watch. It's been a good product. Excited for hopefully, there's not a lockout during the middle of finals. I think that's a possibility. So we'll see how it goes. But I'm excited to get into this topic.

This is something that I, you know, we we took a week off, and that's a week of marinating on this idea. Put a lot of effort into answering, the mail here, and so super excited to talk about this. Okay.

So I know Caitlin has a ton of energy around this because when this topic came up in a group chat that she's in, She immediately said, we need to talk about this, and then also has created a graphic to help illustrate her feelings around this topic.

So we're gonna get into all that, but let's set the stage. Obviously, help us understand what inspired this, who inspired this, and why you wanted to talk about it so much.

Sure. So we have a WMEA CardPod group chat on Instagram that was born out of the national meetup that we coordinated, this summer.

And a member of that group chat at r underscore e underscore Mac posed a question, to both Brett and I, but also to other members of the chat and other members of the WNBA community around how we think about our PC.

And there it was a long question. I think it had multiple prongs, and it really just got me excited to reflect on my PC.

And I'm I I think we can we can get into kind of what was born out of this question, which was this chart. In true consultant fashion, I had to make a slide on this.

And so we we'll we'll dig into it for our Patreon viewers. Brett's sharing it on the screen. But I'll kind of voice over what it looks like, so that you guys have an idea of what I'm talking about.

This will also be posted to at w m e a card pod on Instagram so that while you're listening to this, you can reference the chart if you're more of a visual, person.

Alright. So the chart, as I'm looking at it, is, very, Caitlin is definitely showing her professional background here by, the creation of this visual, but it's also really good for guiding it.

So maybe start with the explanation around kinda connection versus depth and the, I always get the is it accesses?

Yes. We'll go with that. Yeah. We'll go with that. I'll I'll explain them. So the x axis, which is the horizontal axis, is called depth.

And this has a scale ranging from zero to four. This is how many cards I have of a specific player. So I thought about putting purchase price or value, but it just felt simpler to wrap my head around quantity.

So just keep that in mind is that while I may have one card of player a and five cards of player b, the monetary value or purchase price of that one card of player a might outright outweigh the entire total of player b.

So that's just something to keep in mind. And like I said, this scale goes from zero to four. So for any particular WNBA card in my PC, I have no more than four cards, which is very interesting to reflect on.

And zero is also included here, which means that, you know, I want them in my PC and I've I've carved out space for them, but there hasn't been a card that I've identified to make me really pull that trigger yet.

So that's the x axis. And now on the y axis, which is going up, it's the vertical axis. This is what I called connection. And this is how much this player means to me personally.

So it ranges from low to medium to high, with low meaning the connection is just a casual fandom that I enjoy watching them for some particular reason, but that I don't feel like, you know, really connected to them.

Well, well, high means that this player represents a core part of my basketball fandom or collecting identity.

So a player falls into one of these kind of spaces with a count of card and a connection. And then the last thing that I want to hit on before we before we move on is the legend, which is the color of the players.

So each player has a box surrounding them. And that represents my reason for collecting the players. Now this exercise took a lot longer than I initially anticipated, but there's five total buckets, and we'll get into them.

But some players do appear in multiple buckets, but the color is the primary kind of driving force behind why I collect them.

And we'll address those in a moment. But, Brett, that's kind of setting the stage of what this chart looks like and, what the framework is here. I think, ultimately, this is great, and I love it.

Love the preparation to help us talk about this topic. Maybe walking through the framework, I think, ultimately, kind of what me and probably the listeners are trying to identify is, like, how you think about collecting.

So let's maybe start there. Like, how how does this help kind of you think about organization around what you're collecting or what you might be going after?

Yeah. This has been really helpful to kind of help me understand, the full picture of my PC. I think so many times we buy a card and it goes into our case or it goes into a box or it goes into a binder.

And then we look at it, you know, once in a while. But we're not looking at everything laid out on the floor or the entire breadth of the collection as a whole.

And so, by showing this, by showing every single card in my W M B I P C, it helps me understand the trends that I'm following, whether whether I recognize them or not at the time of purchase.

But it also helps me show kind of where where gaps are or where places exist that, you know, there's a disconnect between what my PC is and what I want my PC to be.

And so this visual helps me understand those places of where I think I can improve and where I think maybe I'm, quote, unquote, over leveraged.

And what I mean by that is, what if I, you know, have a low connection to a player but a really high count of cards? That signals to me that maybe my maybe, the connection is higher than I thought it was or it's time to pair down.

So this this framework really helps me objectively look at my PC, and it it helps me with prioritization to understand, you know, why impulse buy one card or been smashed one card, but hesitate on others?

This is kind of diagnosing the trends and habits that I'm following when maybe we don't think about them when we're in in the moment of of buying a card.

I want you to look at the chart that you created, and you said gap, and I'm interested.

When you look at this, the visual, what is for you the biggest gap based on the way this is laid out right now? Oh, it's clear as day, Brett. We have a Myanmar problem with zero cards.

We've been talking about that. Yeah. And we've been talking about it. I've got zero cards of Maya Moore, and she's in the high tier of connection, meaning that, you know, this is a player that I truly respect on and off the court.

She means a lot to me. She's also shown in blue in in blue box, meaning that she is associated with my team fandom.

It's really kind of this this perfect marriage of all the reasons why I wanna collect a player, and yet she hasn't found a place in my PC. So this is a gap that I I need to address.

I need to address it. And and it's interesting to reflect on because it's not like I don't see my Amore cards. You know? It's just trying to figure out how to get her kind of moving to the right of the x axis in terms of that depth.

So this is this is the biggest gap, that that really was called out to me, and I think, you know, it demonstrates a a sort of sense of urgency that I need to I need to get on this Maya more problem immediately.

Let's talk about the, maybe, evolution of this. Obviously, you just put this together. And I don't know prior to you putting this together if you've you were organized around this or thought in a similar way.

But maybe talk about maybe how from a from one collecting season to another or one WNBA season to another, how this might change? Oh, I anticipate this being constantly changed.

For everybody's perspective, if you're not counting the little boxes, I currently have 13 players in my PC and 23 cards across those 13 players with five players in the zero category, meaning that I want them in my PC, but I haven't found a card to represent them.

So, while I anticipate, some of these players moving to the right, meaning that, you know, I'm chasing specific cards of of those players and I expect to have more of them in the future.

I think that, like you said, one of the things that will impact this is the seasons. I think especially with the WNBA, we're heading into, after the finals, probably the most historic free agency of all time.

I think changing teams impacts, my likability of players. If you're coming to my team, obviously, I may root for you. And if you're going away from my team, you know, there's a little bit of sourness there.

If you're going to Liberty, things get a little bit more complicated. So, yeah, those free agency moves, player performance, and, you know, the availability of cards.

If prices of of Maya Moore start to just creep up there, which they are, by the way, they keep going up and up, it becomes harder and harder to continue to, acquire more cards.

So I think, you know, those kind of aspects of free agency and teams, player performance on the court, and then the availability of the cards themselves are factors that could change where some of these players are seated, in the in the chart.

We don't need to dive into this too deep, but the Maya Moore of it all has me contemplating this question.

And that question is, how do you balance the retired athlete versus the active player? It's so tough. If you look at if you look at the chart, there are more active players than retired players, but there are quite a few.

I think there's one, two, three, six, six or seven. That's nice. Six or seven, retired players. And, and I'm sorry guys that that was bad. Okay. There's six or seven retired players when the rest are active players.

And while I tend I I think I do tend to favor players that are currently playing because the excitement is there, I think there needs to be a balance because of the respect for the game that I have.

And when I think about my PC, I don't think about it in short term. I don't think about this season.

I think about in the next ten years, what am I gonna want to show, you know, as that what am I gonna show that's gonna represent my fandom? And it it isn't gonna be one specific season or one specific era.

It's gonna be in caps. It's gonna encapsulate the entire league. And so I've I've I've tried to at least make room for some of those retired players to show my respect, to the game.

But I definitely I tend to be overtaken by the hype and the excitement of winning in in in real time and favor those active players. Oh, you're not alone, Caitlin.

You're not alone. Okay. So let's talk about these these are these players the boxes on here are color coded. Let's explain the meaning of the color codes and essentially put into words, like, why certain players are in your PC.

Sure. So that was kind of the first question that that person, Ari Mac, posed to the group chat was, how can you put into words why certain players are in your PC?

And so that was kind of the driving force of of this chart, and that's where the colors come from.

And like I said, there's five total buckets, with the first being team fandom. So this is a player that I like because of their contributions to my teams. And when I say teams, I think I think it's multiple, Brett.

It's the Minnesota Lynx, which are my WNBA team. But I think there is room here for Minnesota Golden Gophers, which is where I went to school, and it's where Lindsey Whalen hails from.

And that is why I say teams instead of just team because I don't know if I would collect Lindsey Whalen if she just played for the links and came from a random team.

But I want to collect her because of her connection to both my pro team and my college team. So that's that's the blue.

The green is hometown hero. So this is a category of two players, Natisha Heideman and Enrique Ogunbowale, which I like them because they either grew up in the Green Bay area where I'm from or Wisconsin, generally.

And I watched them playing up where I played against them. So with Natisha Heinemann, you know, she went to a rival school, Green Bay Southwest.

And so I got to see her growing up. I got to play against her. Then Enrique Ogdenwale went to a small school down in the, Madison, Milwaukee area. And so I remember going to watch her at the state championship putting up 50.

And I remember being, you know, a little kid and just being like, wow, that she I remember people talking like she's going to be one of the best players out of the state of Wisconsin at any sport.

And, it was. She was she was incredible in high school and she carried over to Notre Dame and then carried into the league.

So that's that's green as hometown hero. The third category is red. This is playing style. And this is a unique one because it kinda it's it's different.

It's it's just because I like this player because, they play the game that I like, which is, how I used to play basketball casually, which was a shooter with a little entertainment forward tendencies, meaning that they like to shoot, they like to, you know, have a little bit of, pizzazz, I suppose.

This would be players like, Marine Johannes, who has the infamous one legged threes. Doesn't play a lot of defense. There's not a lot else going on. Just a fun player to watch.

And the second player that I'm trying to get in this category is Rekia Jackson. This is another player that I've kind of talked about a lot on the podcast where, coming into the league, I just believed in her.

I thought she was the most ready for the league out of her rookie class as she's got a unique style of play, and just as super fun to watch.

So like I said, red is playing style. The final two, we're gonna go with orange, which is hobby or cultural significance.

These are players I like because they mean a lot to the game of basketball or to the hobby. They're legends who have cemented themselves as trailblazers.

These are players like Diana Taurasi, Sue Bird, Asia Wilson, Cheryl Miller. These are these are players that I think, you know, have really a foothold in the WNBA card collecting community.

And without them, I don't think you have I don't think I have a complete WNBA collection. And then rounding it out with our fifth category is an interesting one. It's purple, and this is called collecting journey.

And these are players I like because they remind me of the time when I got back into the WNBA and back into collecting WNBA cards. So these are players like Caitlin Clark, Paige Beckers, Angel Reese, Cam Brink, Sonya Citron.

And I also included Olympia Scott because this was a card that was given to me by a listener as a gift, and it reminded me of, you know, how much this means to me and how much these players really have an impact in the things that we're doing collecting wise are all part of this bigger journey of collecting.

And so these are players that I that I don't put in there because I particularly love how they play basketball or they don't play for a team that I root for. But because it's it's connected to my hobby collecting journey.

So those are the five categories, Brett. This is so or, Caitlin, you're making me wanna do this for myself. And I don't the last thing I need is more work, but I just might do it.

The next question that was presented was, why do you have depth with some players in a single card with others? This is a hard question to diagnose because sometimes collecting doesn't really follow, you know, all these rules.

We can set up these these these guardrails. We can we can make charts, but at the end of the day, you know, sometimes we bin smash a card and we're like, well, that's it.

We we this is the one and we keep it forever. Other times, you know, we think very methodically about a card. We go back and forth on whether or not we wanna purchase it, and it ends up staying in the collection.

So, it's interesting to think about. And when I look at my my chart here, there's only four players with two or more cards in my WNBA PC. That's a lot of one player PCs right there or one card PCs right there.

But I think when I think about why certain players have more cards than other others, they all have either medium to high connection, meaning they have to have a lot of, connection to me. They have to have a lot of meaning.

And I think, you know, as I continue to to reflect on this chart and what it tells me, a PC, you know, is is a full picture. It's it's an entire story is being created by the full breadth of the collection.

And I think that, you know, in order to have a complete collection that satisfies what I'm trying to build, there's certain players that have more cars and certain players that have less.

And for me, if I show you a a picture, which I'll I'll post it of my entire WNBA PC, you should be able to make some conclusions about me as a collector and as a fan.

You should be able to see what areas I prioritize, which players I like, and it should make you think exact like, it should make you think about the fact that, you know, this might not be exactly what I I collect, but I can see the type of collector that would collect like this.

So while certain players are represented more heavily, in terms of depth, either by count or value, either monetary or sentimentally, it's it's just it's really about balance.

And when I think about balance, that means the players I like more are represented with more cards. So we've talked about numbers a little bit and how that changes.

Maybe I wanna move to I think this was the last question that was, presented, which is how often do you move players out of your PC, and what is the reason or what is the cause of that? Yeah. This was interesting.

I I for anybody that knows me personally, I methodically track. I've tracked every single transaction in my card collecting journey since I got back into it. So I have a an entire spreadsheet with thousands of lines of data.

And I went through and filtered by WNBA cards sold and looked at the names there and picked out which ones were previously considered part of my PC and weren't just, something that I, you know, set up without a show.

And there were three names.

It was a reekay, Logan Ballet, Sue Bird and Rekia Jackson, which I thought was interesting because they're all sitting in this, zero category of I want to collect them, but I haven't found the correct card yet.

And I think that's the reason why cards move out of my PC. I haven't had a player that I've collected and abandoned.

It's been cards that I've collected and abandoned. And so while I'm I'm still looking for the one that kind of constitutes, you know, a correct representation in my PC of these players, they haven't really moved out of the PC.

I haven't had that experience yet, but but it could happen. I just don't see it.

As I look at this chart, there's no player unless they did something just crazy, like turned into a villain. I don't foresee them leaving my PC. They turned them into a villain. You could just, sell them to black black hat. You know?

Exactly. That's the get out here. If somebody turns into a villain, you could just sell him to somebody that PC's villains. Exactly. Okay. As we round this out, we are almost done. And who knows? We might be done with the WNBA season.

Thinking back just with your collecting organization, like reflecting on what you've done this year, what what are some things you want to talk about or what comes to mind regarding just like this structure and what's happening in your collection?

Sure.

There were a few things that I, you know, I I thought really deep and hard about reflecting on this because and I implore everybody to do the same because it's just so eye opening to see, you know, what you think you have may not be what you're actually building.

And I think that's really important to to reflect on.

So there were kind of three things that stood out to me. The first thing was links over everything. I think, you know, when you look at the chart, there's not a ton of blue, but that is what is driving my WNBA collecting is team fandom.

And I just love the link so much. I love the players on my team. And, this this year has proven that even if they they don't win it all and meet expectations, they are the forefront in the the Cornerstone of my WNBA collection.

The second thing is being open to breaking my rules that I set out. I think at some point when we're too rigid with these guardrails that we put up, we kind of lose some of the flexibility that's so beautiful and collecting.

And this is a perfect demonstration. One card is perfect demonstration, which is the Kayla McBride Black Fly Night, one of one select that I have.

I remember seeing that in the case at the National and thinking to myself, I just need it. I hadn't seen it. I didn't really think about it before I saw it. And I immediately had to make a play for it.

And that was me breaking some of my rules, which was, you know, I'm not a huge fan of select. Well, now I am now now I am because I bought this card and I saw it and I held it in person and it just it checked all the boxes for me.

So that was the second kind of thing this season taught me was to to be a little bit more flexible. And the third thing is to keep tabs on my PC.

You know, players movement in and out of the PC depth, whether that be counter values, understanding where my PC is at a certain time helps me kind of stay in check when it comes to spending sprees, when it comes to curation, when it comes to storytelling.

I think, you know, my entire PC, like I mentioned, is built around this long term goal of having cards that show, and represent me as a collector and the experiences that I remember from my WNBA fandom.

And I think, you know, if we're keeping tabs on them, whether it be through creating a chart, whether it be through talking through it in a group chat, It really helps you look at it objectively from an outsider view.

And so so keeping tabs on things has been, like, kind of the third thing, that this season taught me about my PC.

Caitlin, you might have to, get your credentials because I think you might be able to teach a core you we're gonna get your PhD in how to collect.

I don't know if I've I've listened to a lot of content, but I don't know if I've ever seen anybody or heard anybody, go into that much detail.

Yeah. Anything before we move on, anything else in closing you wanna touch on? We covered a lot of ground.

I think in reflection, you know, it just it made me realize that I've got a a tough entry exam to get into the PC, when I'm evaluating whether a player or a card, can come into my house and get a spot in the case.

It's it's a tough it's a tough test to pass. And I'm excited to see, you know, where this off season takes takes that. And if there's any new players that kind of meet that that new that new test, and I'm just excited.

I think we're at the dawn of a new era of the WNBA with CBA and all those other things. And I think it's gonna affect the way a lot of us collect players, and I I'm excited to see how it goes.

Awesome. That was fun. Like Caitlin mentioned, that'll be posted on WNBA card pod Instagram, so check it out. Got to hit the one card that sold this week that I wanna talk about.

And this was the most interesting card that sold, and maybe not necessarily for me because of the card, but just something within this sale that I think we should all be looking at looking out, especially if we're selling our cards.

So the example that I'm sharing on the screen pulled from Card Ladder, shout out Card Ladder, the number one best sponsor for the WNBA card podcast and official data provider.

But we are looking at the 2,001 Ultra WNBA Lauren Jackson PSA 10 rookie card.

This card sold via e auction for $2,599 on October 5. Now, when I saw this and I see a card like this, my moves and instincts are always first. Like, let's check out the population.

So we dig in into the population. There are 14 examples of a PSA 10 of this card. I'm like, cool. Well, the next, next move I make is looking at when was the last when was the last when was the last PSA 10? And I filtered this wrong.

Same grade. When was the last PSA 10 sold of this Lauren Jackson? The the last copy sold 07/24/2022 for $1,714. And I think that is the story. The story is although and it looks at the time of when it sold, there was a Pop nine.

I think one of the most important factors when we sell cards is the time in between sales, especially when you've got a copy of a card like this, which is a base card.

But there's a lot of rarity around technical grade. So the to me, this, is the epitome of the growth of the NBA NBA card market in action, where you've got three years removed.

You've got a card going from $1,700 to $20. 20 almost $2,600. And during that time period, it's not like, you know, Lauren Jackson is on billboards or in commercials. Right?

You just have an appetite from collectors who might be Lauren Jackson collectors, who might be storm collectors, who might be chasing key rookies, who might be building this set, who have been waiting around for access to a copy of the this card.

And not only any copy, a p s a 10. And when you see a three year stretch of a single card, especially a PSA 10 of a player that is iconic in nature Mhmm. It's going to go up in value, in all likelihood.

So that is the story for me. I thought it was cool to kinda dig into this, but I wanna get your reaction on this sale. Yeah. The first thing that stuck out to me with this sale is how damn cool this card is to me.

The photo, it almost looks like she's out like a JC Penney photo shoot background. Do you know what I'm talking about? She looks great holding up the draft night jersey, the silver foil in the name.

The card has always stopped me in my tracks personally. Whenever I see this card, it just it throws me back to that time period, and it's such a piece of its time.

I think, you know, the player itself is the second thing that I'm drawn drawn to Hall of Famer, three time MVP, two time champ, one time finals MVP, three time scoring champ, seven time All Star, six six Aussie with international appeal drafted to a storied storm franchise.

I think all the factors are there for collectibility. Not only that, but she's a fun player. She was a fun player to watch. And I think, like you said, the third and kind of final element that stuck out to me was the rarity of it all.

Being low pop, so condition sensitive. Just couple that with how cool the card is and how cool the player is. This is a recipe for, increasing value.

And I I'm excited to see that play that collectors are seeing the value in that. And like you said, to see it go up almost a grand, in two years is a demonstration of the growth in the card market.

And also, it's it's showing to me that people are starting or or continuing to look back as as rookie prices and rookie hype continues to build. Looking back always presents an opportunity.

After I read those accolades, it made me think, you know, it still seemed kind of undervalued because of the player, today put up those kinds of, that that kind of trophy case, we'd be having those conversations at different price points.

So this was a cool sale, and I'm glad you called it out.

I think that I've already mentally, in my mind, a topic for season three is Lauren Jackson, I feel like, is on the Mount Rushmore of, high accolades in winning and, low collector base.

Although, I know there's but I just feel like I've there are this card to me, based on the circumstances and what she did, likely should continue to increase in value over time just based on what she did.

But I think this is the fun part about, like, sets like Ultra and these historically great WNBA players. Like, not all the attention is on them right now.

All the attention is on the younger players as this market is beginning to form, which presents really fun opportunities for those who wanna get in and start collecting and not light their money on fire when it comes to WNBA cards.

I love that. Yeah. This this was a cool card. I'm excited to see if, you know, sometimes these sales, these bigger increased value sales, trigger another collector to put it up on the market, another copy.

So I'd be interested to see if that happens and if we see some more sales kinda fire off of Lauren Jackson cards.

I have no pickups. Although, there are cards that are out there right now that I want. Oh. But the the the the asking price, Caitlin, it's like they're they're waiting for me to make a move, and I'm just like it's like cat and mouse.

So I'm just I'll be hopefully, maybe at some point, I'll be able to report something. I don't know if you got any I don't think you got any new w cards. I know you got some new hot air balloon cards.

How about Yeah. Yeah. That was that was the only pickup this week is my trip to New Mexico. I went to the International Balloon Fiesta, and they had hot air balloon cards. But no w cards similar.

There's a lot of cards I'm looking at just trying to evaluate the PC, get over this this season, to be honest. I'm still kind of soaking in my misery. So, once I'm out of that, I'm sure I'll mask it with some some card purchases.

Alright. Collector of the week. Yes. Our collector of the week is at g r Fisher period cards. This collector's bio clearly shows that they, primarily collect Celtics NBA cards, but I just love this this account so much.

They collect some really cool WNBA cards along with other leagues, sports, and even non sports. They have great taste in cards all around.

Just to shout out some of the WNBA players that this collector collects, Cam Brink, Kiki Irifin, Caitlin Clark, JC Sheldon, Satu Sable, Julie Van Lew, Stewie Page, the list goes on and on. Just a fun slate of of players collected.

The cards themselves are beautiful. And something about the photography featured in this account, serves as a pattern interrupt when I'm scrolling Instagram. Every time I see a photo, I can tell it's g r Fisher cards.

And, seeing WNBA cards within, this account was super fun. There's over 800 posts on this Instagram account, so I implore everybody to to take a look if you don't follow them already. Just some really awesome cards across the board.

Former chief marketing officer, at Collectors and PSA. And this is what I love about the hobby because before we hit record, I was I asked I said, hey, Caitlin. Do you know that this was and she's like, no.

And I was like, no. That's that's perfect. So Yeah. Great cards. Always cool to see those connections, pop up since I had no idea. But that was our collector of the week, for the bonus episode. Alright.

Let's get into the mailbag and get on out of here. Yes. We've got two questions from two of the very best in the hobby, Brett. We've got our first question coming in from at m j s underscore sports cards, and this is tied to our PC.

So this would be interesting. How do each of you define personal collection? And if personal collection is just one sector of your collection, what are the other sectors? And I know this is a big question, Brett.

So just boil it down as best you can. So everything that I buy, I buy because I am interested in enough to consider it PC. Now I also have the nobody's safe here. Nobody's safe here, guys and gals.

I very much treat my PC like I'm the, CEO or the GM of the operation, and there's only so many spots. There's only so much salary cap space. There's so layoffs happening is what you're saying. And Exactly.

Exactly. So I, yeah, I I never well, I have in the past. And this I have bought a card in the past that I have no interest on because I I'm buying it because I think it's a good store of value, and I'm gonna sell it eventually.

But what happens is the so I buy so many other cool cards that I eventually, like, need cash flow for my PC and end up getting get rid of it. So, yeah, it's I don't like, I just I stay very focused.

And the w collecting is probably the most interesting because I've shared that most of my collecting is a a lot of one player PCs because they're I like specific cards or parallels and specific players, and I don't need to go super deep in them.

So, yeah, that's my mindset kinda GM approach, only buy stuff that I know, only buy stuff that I'm connected to.

And I think the interesting part that I've learned over this course of collecting is that the cards that end up when I have to sell something end up selling for the most are the cards that I really, really enjoyed and have certain attributes because other people enjoy those too when they hit the market.

So that's kinda my mindset. What about you? We take a little bit different approach.

I think, we've talked about this in the past that I set up at a few more shows than you do. So in terms of my full collection, PC is definitely like the top where I have the most money and the most cards into.

But I also have two other categories. The second is kind of like holds or plays. These are cards that I I like and I, you know, I try not to buy any card that I don't like and one keep.

That's kind of the rule here. But holds and plays are players like Sarah Strong, Juju Watkins, you know, these younger players that I think, you know, I like, I believe in, I watch.

And I think that, you know, I'm getting into them at a price that I think is affordable that could make me a little bit more money to eventually pay for another PC edition.

So that's that second category. And then the third category is something they call inventory.

This is things that I bring to shows for the sole purpose of selling. So they don't even end up in my card case. They have a a separate home that they live in, and they don't touch the PC and they don't get held for very long.

And those are used for the same purpose, which is to hopefully get some capital to deploy into some PC cards. But, yeah, PC for me are cards that mean more to me than the money that I invest in them.

They typically represent a player or a team or a moment that was bigger than sports and represented fandom. So I've kinda got those three buckets, but sometimes, you know, things things change, and we'll see. Never say never on cards.

The my visual in my mind when deploying capital is set is just like a like, the up an an airplane or, like, a a big helicopter just, like, dropping bags of money with parachutes that are, like, going down into specific cards, and then they fly over to your mailbox.

We're gonna need to make a visual of that. Wait. Wait. Set it.

Okay. Let's get into that. Isn't that what AI is for? Yeah. Oh, god. No. We'll we'll I'll make one so that AI doesn't have to make it. Okay. Second question comes from at Iowa Dave Sports Cards. This long question is mostly for Caitlin.

So thank you, Iowa Dave, for that. Last episode, you talked about Elena Della Don and how she suffered her injuries and retired just before the Caitlin Clark boom. Let's consider now Maya Moore the same way.

She's a legend, but she retired at the age of 29 in 02/2018, well before the Clark boom and in the final year of the Rittenhouse contract, meaning she completely missed the community boom as well.

As a Maya Moore superfan, do you wish she had hung around longer to reach the generation of fans who entered the W with Panini and then Clark, or as part of you glad she retired after 2018, an icon from a previous era of collecting?

First of all, Iowa Dave makes incredible content of his own, and that is shown through this writing here. This question was amazingly written. I'm excited to talk about it.

And I do have an answer, which is that it's kind of a double edged sword. On one hand, I I wish Maya Moore had played longer. She absolutely could have still been playing, today and would wipe the floor with your favorite player.

But it just wasn't meant to be. You know, we all know that she she stopped playing for something bigger, fighting for prison reform. And for that, I really can't feel any regret and I can't hold any remorse against her.

And her playing career almost feels mythical as a result of that early retirement. If you saw her in her prime, you knew what you were watching. You knew you were watching some of the most pure basketball ever played.

And it was respected by everybody, both in the WNBA community, but also the NBA community where she was sponsored by Jordan was going to be the face of the Jordan brand from the women's perspective.

And that said, you know, it did make me think, what if?

What if she came in in the Panini era? What if she was still playing when Clark was here? What if Clark played with her idol Maya Moore? What if she had brought more championships to Minnesota?

You know, all those things are questions that I do ask myself and as much as I love Maya Moore and wish that she would still be playing basketball today, part of what makes her so special is that she left the league at the absolute top.

There was nobody that was playing better than her and I would make the argument that she is still the GOAT.

And her mystique, the way she left, her legacy both on and off the court, It only grew because she walked away at the time that she did.

So I just think, you know, to answer Dave's question, as much as I wish she was still playing selfishly, I completely understand why she left and I almost think it it helps her collectability to a certain degree.

That was an awesome question and a great answer.

This was this was a this was extra bonus for everybody, I feel like. I really enjoyed this. I loved hearing your mindset and mentality, and I'm maybe more fired up than ever before to get into season three next week.

Absolutely. This was special bonus episode 13 of season two. We went over an hour here for you guys and continue with the listener questions.

Like we said, this entire episode was born out of a question asked in a group chat, and that's just the power of the WNBA card collecting community. So we appreciate you all listening and we'll see you in season three.