Welcome back, loyal listeners of the Stacking Slabs Podcast Network, to season six episode four of the WMBA card podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin. I go by at cold lunch cards, and I'm joined by my cohost, Mark, who goes by at m j s underscore sports cards on Instagram. We're excited to team up to deliver more and more collector driven and community focused content this season as we record this episode. Quick reminder at the start of this is, you can follow us on Instagram at WNBA card pod.

That's where we post the visuals that we talk about, as we go through each episode. We try to post any updates about the pod, the league, and cards, and so that's where you can find us. Anyways, Mark, you know, we're we're back after a week off. How are you doing? I'm doing alright.

I'm doing alright. Happy to, happy to get get back into the saddle. Yeah. No kidding. I feel like I have to apologize, folks.

This was my fault, not Mark's, for our absence this last week. It was a busy, busy past couple weeks for your host, Caitlin. I went on a Halloween bender, as one does, then got shipped out to Texas for a work trip. And it's just been a lot of things going on in my life, but I'm excited to have this back as a routine on the podcast. So, we're here for episode four.

And today's episode, I'm really excited about. We kinda had extra time to think about it too, so hopefully we'll get some good conversations flowing. But the agenda for today is we're gonna start with a tip-off of what's on our mind the past couple weeks since we last chatted. We're gonna get a finals recap from our dream fan here that should hopefully serve as therapy for any other dream fans out there as well. And then we're gonna get into the meat and potatoes of today's episode, which is all about inserts.

We're gonna talk about what inserts are, what we like about inserts, what the hobby thinks about inserts, and then Mark and I are gonna do an insert draft. So really excited about today's topic, and then we'll close it out with a buzzer beater question as we always do. But before we get into all that, Mark, you know, what's kind of been on your mind this past couple weeks? While you answer, by the way, I'm gonna I'm gonna open up a couple packs from Great Lakes, which, by the way, for our listeners can be, you know, claimed or you can be entered to be... Win the giveaway at WNBA card pod on Instagram.

So while, Mark, you talk about that, I'm gonna rip a couple packs. That's awesome. Thanks, Great Lakes. I think we're also, wrapping up the box over there. So let's see what we pull.

Last couple of weeks, I have been thinking about what my offseason w collecting might look like. You know, it it... It's a fairly long offseason. We do have NCAA women's and unrivaled coming in the new year. But I'm trying to figure out how how to approach collecting in the, in the off season rhythm.

It's also kind of coinciding with the end of the year coming soon, and that's usually when I kinda take stock on, take stock of my collecting as a whole. So just trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. I think there is a a few... I don't wanna call them vintage because, sometimes getting in trouble for that, but I'm gonna... There's a few not modern sets that I wanna dive, a little bit deeper into during the off season.

And I think there are some off season player and set discounts that I'm I'm hoping to take advantage of in the upcoming months. What have you been thinking about? Well, it's a good call out. I think, you know, we're hitting November, which is usually when I start seeing people post their top 100 cards or top n amount of cards. Right?

And it seems like everybody just has this, kind of introspective take on collecting. Maybe that's because more of their disposable income is going towards gifting for the holidays or something like that. But it does seem like the hobby kind of takes a step back to appreciate what they have, and Thanksgiving always brings that up for me too. So I'm excited to see kind of what your process looks for... Looks looks like for reevaluating the direction that you want your collection to go in.

I think even just having the thought, like, the conscious thought of being aware of that and, like, making a decision to, like, think about it instead of just being, like, alright, we're just gonna keep going and going and going is something that comes with time and maturity of collecting. And I I do it every year. I try to do it every day, But at the end of the year, it just feels feels right. So I'm also thinking about that, Mark, and maybe we'll get into that as we record more episodes about what we actually do, but it's been top of mind for me for sure. Yeah.

It's definitely, you... You're absolutely right. Like, November is the time where I'm out of card money. I gotta figure out, like... So it's time to sit down and and think and evaluate, you know, and, think about other ways that I come...

Can come up with a little bit more card money, or do we just have to, enjoy the cards that we have for for the next couple months until until we get reinforcements? Yeah. The great collector dilemma, I suppose, is upon us. Yeah. So that's been top of mind for me, but the other thing that the past couple weeks has kind of been, like, just front of mind for me is this idea of being a collector or collecting as an identity.

I kinda teed this up with the beginning of the episode that the past couple weeks of my life have been busy. I I feel like I've just been doing anything but cards. And yet, when I'm making small talk at a party or I'm making small talk at work or wherever, somehow collecting gets brought up. Now there's a common denominator there, which is me. So, of course, I'm going to bring it up, but I just find myself kinda like talking about cards whenever people are like, oh, are you watching the WNBA finals?

Are you watching the World Series? And it's been really top of mind, and I've been thinking about kind of identity in collecting. And a lot of what I talk about when I think about building my PC is trying to create a mirror, where if you look at the cards that I lay out on the table when I said this is Caitlin's personal collection, you think that can only be Caitlin's because that's her, and she's an individual. And so all these identities that we hold, the identities that I hold, I wrote down a few, I put proud queer woman in Minnesota, that's three things right there. But then I think to myself, what kind of rounds out the top five?

It gets a little harder. I would put collector right there, like right near the top. It it feels so core to my identity, and so in this kind of period the past couple weeks where I've been just so busy I can't feel like I can't even think, and cards are, like, taking kind of a back seat at least actively, collector still comes to the forefront. And I don't know. That's just kinda what I've been thinking about as I've been too busy to, quote, unquote, like, buy or sell or trade cards.

I've just been thinking about collecting as as an identity. When people, this is really great. When when people ask you about it or or, or you talk about it at at a cocktail party or when you're waiving your fee six pack at, like, a Halloween vendor, what are your, like, favorite questions to talk about? What is, like, the question that someone asks you that you just, like, get rolling on? Oh, honestly, like, I feel like the number one question I get is, like, what's your most valuable card?

And I immediately hit them with monetary or sentimental because that's two... I immediate... Every single time I hit them with it, and they always go both. And they're always shocked to hear that the monetary one isn't necessarily the most sentimental. And it always feels like somebody brings up a story or a connection to a collector that they know, mostly cards.

Like, I feel like now everybody's one degree of separation away from a card card collector with this kind of like boom and coolness of collecting. But also collections can come in many different ways, you know. I feel like every time I say I collect cards there's like one person that's like, Oh cars, like sports cars. I'm like, Well no, No. Don't really have that kind of disposable income, but same same process here.

Same process. And so the the question that really gets me going is, like, what's your most valuable card? And I almost always steer the steer the direction of the conversation to sentimental and stories and, you know, I'm from this hometown, and therefore, I collect this person or, you know, this is my memory that I have of, say, their favorite team or whatever it may be. That's the question that I I love to get. What's the last sentimental card that you, that you talked about?

Like, when some... When you Oh, that's a good one. Sentimental. That's awesome. Yeah.

I mean, the last one that I had, I was talking about the brewers, honestly, because, like, the brewers haven't been making their run. And so, like, you get a ton of people that are like, we love the brewers or whatever, like, whatever it may be. And I just remember being like, yeah. I I had this brewers card when I was a kid or this brewers card now, and and people just get so... They're...

I think people are just, like, thirsty for any sort of connection that they can have today, especially to, like, a tangible item. We talk about that a lot in cards. And by introducing that tangible item into a conversation with somebody that's not necessarily a collector, it gives them something to latch on to in the conversation. And so, yeah, I've I've been talking a lot about brewers cards, to be honest. That's awesome.

Yeah. Well, Mark, it's it's time. It's time I've been trying to stall. I just I know. I'm just gonna keep asking you questions.

I don't want to get to this next part. Yeah. So we all know what this is gonna be. I think there's something else that's been on your mind, and and that would be the WNBA finals and your Atlanta dream. As we record here today, obviously, we know the results.

And I just have to ask, how are you feeling? Can you kinda, like, talk us through all the emotions that you went through and maybe how they are today compared to, say, right on Halloween night? Yeah. Yeah. I I think the last time we talked was right after game four.

And it's it's probably really good that we didn't have an episode last week because it would have just been an hour of me sobbing on the podcast, I think. Honestly, I'm taking it kind of hard from a fan perspective. And and a big part of that is that I I really do believe championship opportunities can be so fleeting, and, they can be really rare. Like, the, a lot of folks have been saying, you'll get them next year. You'll be back.

That doesn't comfort me at all, actually. I mean, I I I I appreciate the sentiment, but next year is never promised. Right? Like, it is it's, it... These are these are really rare opportunities where where things come together and you can, you can get to a championship.

Like, we... You know, you don't always get to be a dynasty, and there are other teams that are coming up. So, you know, watching game seven was extremely tough. Game six was very enjoyable on the other hand. Right?

Like... And I was, and that gets me to the other part of this. I am... Even though I I'm super sad that they didn't win the championship, I am so proud of what this dream squad was able to do. I was so thrilled to be able to cheer for them this entire year.

Looking back on it, I remember when the playoffs started, my hope was that they would win a series. Right? Like, that was my... That was what I was really cheering for because I was really worried that, you know, they had been out in the first round the last couple seasons, so I wanted to get them to get a series win under their belt. So it was beyond my wildest expectations.

And so it's balancing that pride and and joy with the the sort of misery of knowing that this was absolutely winnable for them. Right? Like, they absolutely could have won game seven. And all that said, you know, props to the Valkyries. Right?

Like, props to Gabby. We watched the player make that legend leap. Right? That that game seven that people will always remember for, you know, someone just taking over the game, and she did that. And she's someone that I've always really liked.

So I I am, to some extent, happy for them and happy for the Valkyries. Right? Like... And, you know, my overall feeling is, like, thank you to the dream. Like, it was...

It's so fun. And it's it's such a privilege to get to experience the highs and lows of fandom. And, you know, I'll take the heartbreak of, like, a a a sports... Like, that sports heartbreak of a finals loss or a championship loss for, you know, the the the thrill and exuberance of that journey, and it was such a fun team to cheer for. So, you know, still kinda going through all the feelings.

I'm still not really liking a lot of the the Valkyries, card posts on Instagram. Even though I like the card and I like the collector and I like the players, like, I'm not ready yet. I'm just gonna scroll through. I'll get back to you in a couple weeks. But Yeah.

But, you know, that's where I am. I I just have to say I feel your pain as somebody who would... Is and was a Lynx fan when they also just, like, had a very winnable series where it felt it felt like it was... It's right there. It's so painful, and it takes so long to begin to even accept that it didn't go your way.

And then you add in the card ecosystem of it all, and it gets even more complicated. So, Mark, I wish you luck on your your journey of recovery through a finals loss. That one felt truly like heartbreak. I think, you know, a lot of what we talk about in sports and what people talk about what makes sports so good is is the the romance of it, but the romance only comes with, you know, the tragedy, and somebody must be the tragedy, and, unfortunately, that was your dream. I think, like you said, congrats to the Valkyries.

At the beginning of this series, I came on the podcast and said I thought there was no bad outcome for the league nor for cards because of this series. I think the Valky's winning makes the case, kinda like proves the theory of expansion teams and proves that there's a lot of talent hidden in limited roster spots as they exist today. You know? I think that makes me very happy. And I know we have a lot of Valkyries fans that are listening, and I'm so happy for you guys.

But at the same time, it it makes me sad because I really wanted Angel Rhys to win. That is... I I was not really cheering for the dream, Mark. I was cheering for Angel Rhys. The amount of weight that that woman has on her shoulders and the way she carries it so gracefully, even through a loss, I just wanted her to get...

To just get it. And so when I say I think they'll be back, I don't mean that to, you know, as like a consolation prize. I really do think, like, there's certain people who will not be denied. There's certain people that in their DNA they can't take losing, but you can't do it. And I think Angel Reese is one of those people, and so I think she was the key to the game, and it didn't really go their way in game seven.

I had one stat that I wrote down that I thought kind of like unlocked it for me which was my quote unquote stat of the series. This is Angel Reese's half court touches by game. Game one, 47 with a loss. Game two, 60 with a win. Game three, 59 with a win.

Game four, 60 with a loss. Game five, 52 with a loss. Game six, 74 with a win. And game seven, only 31 and a loss. Obviously, it's not a direct causation here, but a lot of correlation between Angel Reece being fed the ball and given the room and the space to make something happen.

In game seven, it just felt like it just wasn't... It wasn't there. It wasn't enough. And so that was kinda, like, my thoughts on the series. I'm very happy for our Valkyries fans that are listening.

I'm very happy for Golden State. I'm happy for the Bay Area. It's a basketball place, but I would be lying if I said I didn't get the outcome that I ultimately wanted. Yeah. And they...

I think I've mentioned it before. Angel has really just risen so much in my estimation, over the past year, and I and I I feel you on that. I am really cheering for her, and a lot of it is because of the hate that she experiences and, like, the the ways, I... The way that I have often put it is, like, I really appreciate her because she shows that you can play with joy and veracity at the same time, and it's and it's really remarkable. And I cannot wait until she wins a championship and they replay that montage of her walking off the court with her mom, like, at at at the end of game seven, and they they use that as, like, the sort of, you know, the the part of the montage that sets you up for, for the for the for the for the victory.

Yeah. It's gonna be great. But let's hope it's with the dream, and let's hope it's in the near future. Otherwise, you and I are gonna have to change the name of this podcast to, like, WNBA heartbreak or or something like that. I don't know how much of this we can take of our teams making it to the cusp and just not getting there.

So, yeah, Mark, thank you for kind of, like, putting yourself through that. I know reliving that. I still remember, like, doing season... I don't know. I think it was, like, season one or two of this podcast with Brett, and we talked about the links that felt like every week, and every week I just couldn't get over it.

I was like, I just can't get over it. I'm still not over it. Like, I still talk about the liberty, like, so bad. So, like, I understand we're gonna give you the room to breathe. I'm gonna try not to bring it up too much, but thanks for putting yourself through that, for today's episode.

Anything for the people. Love it. Well, before we get into the topic of today's episode, which is all about inserts, I did finish ripping the packs that we had from Great Lakes, and we had a couple nice pulls. We got a Natasha Cloud. This is a orange laser out of 299.

Nice. Really pretty. We got a Deereca Hamby green laser out of 399. Some inserts including Kiki net marbles, angel my house. Love this photo that they use.

That. Yeah. We also got my woman, Nafissa Collier franchise features. Better be a franchise feature. Better be One for each of us.

Yeah. We've got Lexi Hull tunnel vision. Pretty good insert there. I know that one's popular. And then as we make our way through just some of the more common silvers.

And, honestly, Mark, we got the two best rookies here. We got Olivia Miles and Azzi Fudd on the parade of the season. That'll be a nice package for someone. Cap it off with a Dana Evans jersey series little patch. Oh, awesome.

So as a reminder to our listeners, all those cards you just heard me rattle off, if you're just listening, those will be photographed and put on our Instagram at WNBA card pod. No cost to entry. Just like, comment, or reshare our reel, and we'll get these sent to you, as soon as we can. We've given away the past three episodes, and I think we've had some happy campers. So those will be available to everybody.

Thanks, Great Lakes, for that donation. Appreciate it. Alright, Mark. Let's do it. We're we're about twenty minutes in.

I wanna talk about inserts. I think the first thing that we're gonna we're gonna start with is kind of an education segment in case we've got anybody who isn't like super familiar with cards or they're new to the WNBA or whatever it may be. I wanted to kind of set the stage before we get into this because there's some nuance around inserts. I feel like even when I was prepping for this I was like okay I'm gonna get the definitions of each of these and I'm trying to write them out and I'm like wait I'm conflicting. I'm conflicting the definitions right now.

So I went to topsripped.com and went to their glossary page and found a definition for insert, a definition for base, and a definition for parallel. I'm gonna read these out because in order for everybody to understand today's episode, you need to be familiar with these terms. So insert cards refer to any non base or non parallel cards, a great definition where we have to go to the two more words to understand the definition. But these are cards typically have their own themes, names, designs, and numbering. Base cards make up the quote unquote base set, which is the most common set of cards in a sports product.

Base cards are considered common cards and make up the majority of cards in a given product. They typically feature a card number on the back of the card making them easily identifiable on that product checklist. And then finally we have the parallel cards. These cards essentially run parallel to the base set, meaning they have a similar look and design but are distinguished by a unique physical quality. Usually that quality is border color, texture, pattern, card material, image variation, or a printing technology that's deployed on that card.

Today, we're talking about inserts. So that's that's kinda like the ecosystem to understand here. And so I wanna kick us off, Mark, by kinda doing a a brief history of inserts. I did a little research on, I guess, the purpose of inserts over time and how they've evolved from a broader standpoint, not just WNBA. And I think that you zoomed in a little bit more onto our league of the W.

So I guess let's start with kind of the broad and then we'll zoom in and you can kind of give the perspective of the WNBA. So in general, insert cards were kind of born or became really popularized in the 1960s with baseball cards. They were introduced for an interesting purpose, which is they were they were put into packs as bonuses in hopes of spurring card sales, and at the time, inserts were much more common than they were today. They weren't necessarily limited. They would just appear in a pack.

Hopefully, it would look a little bit different than the base card, and that would incentivize somebody to buy more. It created this kind of hunt or chase as we think of it today. That same concept lasted about thirty years until the nineteen nineties when the... What I would call the insert revolution really began. In an attempt to differentiate cards in an era defined by junk wax where everything was just the same and there was an oversupply of base or common cards.

The first serial number cards came through in 1991 Donrus with cards serial numbered to 10,000. 10,000. Two years later, Finest created refractors and introduced a new technology that kinda took the hobby by storm. And three years later in 1996, the first product with guaranteed autographs was released in 1996 Leaf Signature Series. Before that, autographs exist and they were in pack...

Like in packs to pull, but this was the first time there were like stated odds and guarantees for them making them an insert into the base set. A year later in '97 we got patch cards with the iconic 1997 upper deck game jersey set, and with the dawn of Y2K people finally, like, were being able to differentiate a rare card from a more common card, and inserts proliferate it. Feels like rarity continues to kind of climb up the collector prioritization ladder in the 2000s with the overproduction kind of era that we're currently in. So when it's serial numbered or when it's stated on the box as a chase, it gives collectors an easy way to think I'm in this group and therefore there's less... One less open seat to occupy or one less available card for somebody else to have.

That kind of mystique is something that characterized what insert... Why inserts kind of became so popular. So that's kinda like the very high level. There's just so many details that go into, like, each of those years and I'm sure before that, but that's kind of the high level timeline of where inserts started to where we are today. That being said, you know, in the early nineties, in the sixties, there weren't WNBA...

There wasn't a WNBA. So the timeline for insert cards have been a little bit different, I suppose, for our league. Mark, do you mind kinda, like, contextualizing within that timeline where we fit? Yeah. So, even from 1997 when we get the first WNBA set, Pinnacle.

Right? Like, there are inserts, from the very start. The Pinnacle set actually does have, subsets that are still part of the base set, but, like, a little bit different in design. For that first 97 pinnacle set, we have style and grace and hoops scoops that are the the subsets. But there are actually inserts like my town and team development.

And my town, is one that I like a lot. It's like an eight card, I think it's an eight card insert set, something like, you know, one in, you know, every 10 or 20 cans. I think I I I saw maybe 19... Yeah. Right?

With the with the with the cans that the... These cards came out of. And they are... You know, those inserts featured some of the early superstars of the league, and you can still get copies of those inserts, pretty affordably. As we get to the late nineties and early two thousands, FLIR Ultra also, had a few releases, and they had some cool inserts the...

When they, when they released. We have, like, inserts like rock talk, WNBA attitude, WNBA attitude, world premiere in their 1999 set. Those are the main inserts in their first set. Aesthetically, they're not my favorite looking inserts, but, like, a really important part of the history. As you get to 2,000, you get the FLIR, does their kind of autographics or hoops, inc type of, type of chases that kind of map on or parallel some of the autographics releases, in other in other sports.

Two thousand Dominion, in particular, has a couple of inserts that, I find pretty interesting and and, like, a nice throwbacks to to look at. Check out Girls Rock and Oh, that's it. And Supreme Court. Really fun insert sets that, you know, are not are not terribly expensive. And then we get into the Rittenhouse area era, right, which is, a little bit strange because a lot of the sets there come in box sets.

Right? And there's also promo cards and autographs that are sometimes promo and sometimes inbox sets. There's also game worn cards. There are a few kind of cards that would qualify as inserts, I suppose, that are here and there, but, like, they're not a dominant feature of of Rittenhouse. While we're here, this would be a good place for me to kind of pause and mention.

Like, last, two weeks ago, I was talking about the, 2008 Rittenhouse, finals game worn swatches, and a friend of the pod, at WNBA win reached out to me and let me know that those are actually not from jerseys. They're, they're actually from the shorts. Mhmm. And, just like a really cool, factoid and, like, a, you know, a nice correction to have, to to know, like... And thank you WNBA win for doing the research and, like, doing the work of figuring out where these, where these materials came from.

After Rittenhouse, we get into, you know, the the Panini Panini area era with Don Russ, in the... Don Russ's 2019 release, and they start having inserts in their sets. But they do a thing that I don't... I personally don't love with inserts where they have inserts that have parallels. Yeah.

So, the inserts are not differ... Not necessarily super differentiated by their rarity in and of themselves, but by the parallels that they have. As we start to get to... Into, Panini doing prism, though, we start seeing some inserts that we are much more familiar with now and an explosion of inserts. Some of the more common inserts like get hyped, fireworks, fearless, and and their parallels, have that through line from 2020 Prism.

Many of them have a through line from 2020 or 2021 to today. Color Blast makes its entry in the second year of WNBA Prism in 2021. And recently, as we've gotten products like Origins, Select, and Donruss, we've got a lot of inserts with a mixture of rarity ranging from one in every few packs, to the so called case hits, which I think, you know, have start... Have started to have a pretty broad meaning. I don't know what case hit means anymore because it seems like everything is referred to as a case hit.

But, you know, I think... You know, and, like, once everything is a case hit, nothing's a case hit. But I think, you know, that's... Like, as you, you know, as the as the w space kind of continues to, continues to develop and we have a lot more of these boxes and cases ripped online, we're starting to get more of an idea of, like, which particular inserts are are actually really rare and which, show up a little bit more commonly. But that ends up, I think, having to be done by the collectors themselves, right, rather than, pack odds or some information released by, released by the, by the companies.

Yeah. It's been an interesting evolution. I think, like, for WMEA, I think the big thing that I take away from this is that we started with inserts, whereas a lot of other lanes, they had to kind of mature into that. We had that right from the beginning. And as we've kind of grown up over the past, say, twenty five, thirty years, it just feels like a exponential graph in terms of the insert availability, which makes it hard for collectors to differentiate between, like you said, something that's truly rare versus something that, you know, is a little bit more common.

So hopefully, Mark and I's synopsis of the hobby as a whole and then zooming in on the WNBA gives you guys a good objective understanding of where we are. But now we're gonna get a little subjective. I I I wanna talk about what inserts mean to me, what they mean to you, how we collect them, our thoughts on the market today, etcetera, etcetera. So why don't we kinda start with this question. What makes a good insert, Mark?

What separates a great insert concept from something that, you know, I would probably label lazy or not so good? Yeah. To me, I'm really drawn to design. Right? Like, a a good insert has, like, simplicity, photography, like, like...

Or some sort of artistic dimension that's just really captivating. I think some element of rarity matters for a good insert, but there should be, like, a thoughtfulness to that rarity. Right? Like, I I personally like insert sets that are either really small checklists that are rare and hard to pull or larger checklists that are less rare. Right?

Like... And and I I like those two formulations because they're challenging to put together, but enough of a challenge for those of us that have completionist tendencies to, to actually want to pursue, like, the the insert set. Yeah. I also think legacy matters. Right?

Like, an insert that appears year over year that has different designs. I think it's really fun to be able to chase someone's insert the... Fill in the blank insert over the over the course of their career. And, you know, having a product that can, you know, can track a career from year one to year 17 or something like that is, is a really fun feature of an insert. So, Mark, you kinda mentioned three things here.

It's design, whether that be the borders, the graphic design, the kind of just, like, overall visual style of the card. That's design. Then you have legacy, which you just described as being kind of the through line, the consistency across years. And then the third that you kinda touched at the beginning was the checklist or the players that are included with that insert. If you had to rank those three for your collection, not for anybody else's collection, what are you ranking as most important, number one, and then least important, number three?

So you design, checklist, and design checklist and legacy. Is that... Are the the the three? Number one is design. Number two is legacy, and number three is checklist for me.

Checklist only kind of... Only comes up for me, if a favored player is there or if a particular player being in that set makes completing the set so prohibitively expensive to put together. Interesting. That that... That's when check...

Checklist plays, plays a role for me. Yeah. I think depending on your identity as a collector, whether that be player collector, team collector, or set collector, each of these variables moves up the ladder. So if I'm a team collector, I think that design and checklist goes up, meaning, like, I I I want it to be all the the starting five plus our reserves, our batch. That...

That's important and needs to look nice together. Whereas if I'm a player collector, I don't really care about the checklist as long as that one player's in there. Therefore, the legacy of tracking it through a couple years or a few years becomes a lot more important. So I agree with your, kind of ordering. I would put them in the same order of design, legacy, and checklist, but I can completely understand where people would flip that or move those around.

Absolutely. Mark, my next question is around, like, comp... Comparing and contrasting previous generations of inserts compared to modern times and ultra modern times. When I say previous generations, I'm not gonna say vintage because I know it's not vintage like we said, but, like, late nineties, early two thousands, I'm gonna consider that a little bit older. Modern's gonna be, quote, unquote, Rittenhouse era ish, and then ultramodern consider that Panini.

Where do you think, like, generations of previous inserts have got things right that ultramodern maybe hasn't or vice versa? So here, I think I've been a... I I... I'm gonna think about this a little bit more broadly than just the w, and I'm thinking Okay. About inserts broadly.

I I do think... I mean, NW is included here with Ultra and, and and Pinnacle particularly. I do think earlier generations of inserts, should be applauded for their experimentation. There was, like, a lot of different insert sets that, that companies tried. A lot of them didn't work.

Right? And that's that's fine. But there are, like, ones that have a lot of staying power where, a company was trying something that's... That was really interesting. The one that I think about, is actually an NBA set at...

From... I think it was 2013 or 2014, and it's Panini Innovation. And it they... Like, it's a set that, to this day, has some of the more experimental inserts that, that I think are super cool. They had, stay...

Like, stained glass inserts, laser cut accomplishments. They had laser cut cards. Their gay... Their, game worn materials were game dated, right, like, and all of those things. And I think certainly, right, like, not everything is going to work, but some things are gonna stick.

And I I I do wish for that kind of experimentation. In the modern era, I think you you see a lot of emphasis on the prestige inserts. Right? Like, the ones that the ones that move at shows, like, pretty frequently, the sort of case hits that are really popular. I also think, you know, sometimes the designs on these inserts leave a little bit something to desire, to desire.

Some of them, let's say, do not make use of the the the rich trove of artists that can, can contribute to to hard art. Right? You know? And, instead rely on stuff that is, you know, that that doesn't have a doesn't have a soul, to it. Right?

Like, in the design. Right? Like, the comparison I always make between, like, some AI designed inserts and others is, like, if you look at, like, nineteen fifties Topps cards. Right? Like, Topps during that time period was employ...

During the fifties, sixties, and seventies was... We're employing some of the best comic artists in the nation. And so you get these backs of cards with really neat designs and, like, these... Like, a lot of thought given to how a card would be designed. And these are base cards.

Right? Yeah. And, you know, I think I think the the sort of experimentation and the sorta... The the the reliance on human creativity are are some of the things that I I I really appreciate about, like, past inserts that we don't see as much with, some of the ultra modern stuff. I couldn't agree more.

I find, like, seeing that it was possible, whether that'd be a callback to, like, twenty twenties, like, they had, like, a artist. What was that? Topps Project 70 or something like that where they they literally employed specific artists to do a rendition on a card. It's like... It just doesn't make sense to me how we can we can regress from that, how we can how we can move backwards in terms of creativity.

So I find the use of AI in cards to be deeply upsetting, especially when I turn the card over and I read it and I think that was not a person that read that wrote that. That's upsetting to me because when I go back and look at the cards that I've kept from my childhood and I look at the backs, I remember reading it and being like, hey, mom and dad, what does this word mean? What does this word mean? You know, I write... Like, these are things that matter to me.

That matters to me. Yeah. Card backs card backs is how I learn math. Right? Like, that's how I...

That that thing, you know, is calculating batting averages Yes. Career averages and stuff. We don't get that anymore. Like, you know, if you don't if you don't wanna write too much copy, put career stats and a couple of sentences of their last season. Right?

Like Yep. I, you know, I think, that is a shame. Yeah. 100%. And I think that's about kind of the emphasis of certain elements of cards that have been prioritized compared to now.

And and and my call out for this question was sort of around how we've started to value the parallel proliferation more than the inserts themselves, and you touched on that with the entrance of Panini. The insert itself has a base card that... Or, like, a a base design with not much going on or it's just the the card itself. And then we've got 25 different colors of that insert to chase, meaning that, oh, if you collect the base one or the one without the numbering on it, that's inherently, you know, worth less than the gold out of 10 because it's a different color. To me, that's kinda not the point of the insert.

The point of the insert is to get a card that looks different from the base set and yet is alluring and and convincing to me that I want to collect something aside from the base card. The base side could have its parallels, but I want the insert to be able to stand up for itself. And I think today, in today's market, across the board, as we've seen the goat... The quote unquote goat market explode, we've seen alongside that a growth in 90s inserts where there weren't any parallels to those to those inserts, it was just the card and it spoke for itself because of the technology that was employed or because of the art on the card or the way that it shined under a light. Those are the things I wanna see come back and maybe push the parallel nonsense to the base cards because that's where I want it.

I want it on the base set. I don't need the parallels on the insert. I want the insert to be able to do the talking. So that's kinda my thoughts on, you know, today. I feel like I'm like a like a boomer.

I'm like, get off my lawn, like, old old timer type, like, soapbox, but that's how I feel about it. My next question for you, Mark, is, if you had to kind of unretire an insert or, like, bring one back from the dead, WMBA specific, what are you going with? Oh, I think, for me, this one's easy. I think one of the best things about Origins, were their inserts. Right?

Like... Or, like, there were, like, really strong inserts in the in the two years that we had Origins. In particular, I really liked, one of the inserts from Origins called Euphoria. It's a really good looking insert set. I mean, and the parallels also look nice, but it's a base set.

The base set in the, on their own, they're just, like, a a a really kinda gorgeous design. I I I I... Like, it it reminds me a little bit of some of the Court Kings, some of the Court Kings inserts, like the the the... Especially with the thicker card stock, but I I really like that set. What would you bring back?

Well, Mark, you stole mine because that's what I was going to say. That's one of my favorites. I feel like I remember when I was doing kind of the, like, through the eras season of this podcast, a lot of people I asked, like, kind of what makes a good card to you in this era. And a lot of what they said was the photo captures the intensity of the WNBA on the game, whether that be through the fearless inserts, the get hyped inserts. To me Euphoria does that the best because there's no the text isn't overbearing on the insert compared to say the fearless or the get hyped or whatever you want to call it.

The euphoria, it just kind of acts as a place setting. It just like uplifts the photo of the player. So I was gonna go with Euphoria, but because I didn't wanna do the same thing, I will pick an alternate, and I'm a throw it back to Rittenhouse. Maybe maybe, Mark, you'll correct me if this is actually an insert or not, but I think it is, which were the, 2008 national team inserts that featured a three split box of three different prey... Players.

The one that I'm thinking of has Terase, Bird, and Cash on it, a pack of huskies, and they're separated by kinda like three individual boxes. It kinda reminds me of, like, the fifties, sixties baseball card look. I just love everything about that. It feels classic. It doesn't feel worn out.

It doesn't feel like it's trying too hard, but it just looks nice. That's a great one. I... And they are numbered uniquely, Right? I think.

I believe they are numbered uniquely. They had... It's like a nine card set out of 667. I think that's all... Is that also the one where there is, like, a Candace Parker rookie Yeah.

The promo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That would... That's a great one. Thank you. Thank you.

I had a lot of fun researching inserts for this set because I'm not a big insert collector, so this was, like, opening my eyes, I suppose. But why don't we kinda get into that, Mark? I'm curious to hear, do you actually collect inserts? And if you do, how do you approach it? Yeah.

I do. I I do collect inserts. My preferred inserts are rare... Rarer inserts, like, something that are actually kind of case hit level inserts. I...

The way that I collect inserts is I like to collect runs of a specific player. There are a couple of insert sets that, if I really like the design and it's a small enough checklist and, like, it's manageable for me budget wise, I'll I'll chase the set. Like, I put together, I think it was twenty twenty three origins blank slate. I think it was a five card set. It was challenging enough.

It was challenging and doable in a way that, that really appealed to me. So for me, there is a pretty large place in my in my collecting for insert sets. You were saying you don't really, do much in in the way of inserts. Do you... Like, can you speak to a little bit of why, or are you just a base base card gal?

It's confusing, Mark. I went through... I took out my case of cards and my two binders of cards, and I took an inventory before today's show. And I was like, how many inserts do I have of WNBA or women's basketball cards? And the answer is I've only collected and kept two different inserts ever in my WNBA or women's basketball collecting, one of which I talked about on the last episode, which is Bowman Yu's image variations.

Right? That's good. And the only other one I have is Maya Moore timeless moments auto. That's it. And to me, I think that really highlights kind of my taste.

You can you can kind of make assumptions based on when I say those two things, what I like. And what I like is that the photo matters, and it matters a lot a lot to me. And so I kinda like inserts that are simple, that are borderless. I I I like when it... It's really focused on the the action that's happening, the action that's being captured, the photo, and then it's just printed on the card, and there's less of a design that goes into it, which I think is contrary to a lot of people's understanding of inserts where everything has to be loud and overwhelming.

To me, I like the opposite. And the reason I tried to figure out why that was because it's not easy to diagnose why we collect a certain way. But what I came up with, my theory on myself, is that it fits seamlessly into the rest of my collection. Meaning that if I lay out all my WNBA cards or all my women's basketball cards, they aren't interrupting the flow of my majority base or parallels of the base cards. They fit seamlessly into that equation.

It doesn't break up the big picture of my collection. It just kind of, like, lets it pass through. I don't know if I'm talking too abstractly, but that's that's how I look at it is that they're not overwhelming the big picture. It's not like, okay, if I put all my cards together in a big a big, like, six by four of of those cards, it's not like, oh, one is drawing my attention to the complete other side. I don't like that.

I like all my cards to be, you know, they all contribute to one bigger picture. I like that. I like that explanation a lot. And I like it because, like, I I think I'm the exact opposite. Right?

Like, I I think I want the the insert because it's a disruption. Right? Because, like, I think for me, I'm looking for the feeling of, like, when I was, like, a kid in the mid to late nineties, and I'm opening a pack. And you're like, look at... Like, you kind of you kind of slightly fan open the cards, and you see that one shiny card that's there that's a little bit different that disrupts, like, the, like, the whole pack.

And you you you kind of notice, like, oh, I got an insert. Is this the one in 12 packs or the one in 72 packs? You know, and it's going to be something that's different from the base cards. So for me, the place that it has in my collection is a little bit of that, just a little bit of that disruption. Right?

Like... And it, you know, I I I haven't calculated how much of my collection are insert sets. I think most of my stuff is still base cards and it... Like, or base parallels of some kind. But I think there is...

Like, you'll probably find that there's, like, a small portion just because, like, there's, like, that insert set where you kind of... Where you're flipping through the cards that, like, makes you pause and, like, wow. That design is really something. It's, really different. The the sort of pattern interrupt that I'm actually looking for that you are, like, kind of Avoiding.

Avoiding. Right? Like... And that's, like... And it...

I think it speaks to what the the insert kind of does and, like, how we might just have different reactions to it. Absolutely. I I think it's interesting how you're talking about when you're a kid and you're opening up those packs and you fan them out and what you're looking for is, you know, a little shiny or a different color or something like that or, like, a different design, I should say, a different design. For me when I was a kid and I I unf... Like I was fanning them out, what I was looking for when I was collecting say NFL and MLB cards was like the award winners or the all star game or something where it had almost the same exact look as the rest of the set but had an extra logo or had a little extra something to it or they're wearing a different jersey.

That to me is what I'm hunting compared to say you are looking for the other side of the coin. Yeah. So it's just so interesting how two people can have such different takes on something, and therefore when we talk about, like, how the market reacts or, like, our feelings on the market, it's very complicated to try to make mass generalizations because two collectors who are, I would say, pretty mature in our tastes have gone completely different directions. So it's it's interesting how a manufacturer then has to balance the conflicting priorities of collectors that have the same amount of, quote, spending power or maturity in the hobby. Balancing that is hard.

So it's not an easy thing to do. But, yeah, we... We've kind of got opposite taste and approach here, Mark. It's good. It's it's a good balance, and it kinda explains to me why you're, so into the image variations.

Yeah. Right? Like, it's the base card that... With the twist to it. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's almost like an Easter egg. Do you know what I mean? Like, you have to know to know with some of these. Whereas with an insert, if you're opening up a pack and you get a fearless insert, you know that that's different.

I want the inserts where I can't really, well, what's what's wrong with this card? How come this doesn't look the same as the one I just pulled? And there's kind of that mystique. That's more of the insert that I'm drawn to. Yeah.

And it's the reward for the the work of reason. For the work. You get, it's your extra credit points. Yes. Okay.

Okay. Now we're speaking. Okay, Mark. I've got two two questions for you here. What's an insert you love that maybe you don't see other collectors talk about as much?

And two, which insert would you defend till the end of time even if the rest of the hobby hated it? I don't think black... Blank slate gets a lot of love. Like Yeah. I I do, I do really like that a lot.

And then the one that I would defend... You know, I... The... There's one there's one insert out of prism, like, you know, the the fairly common inserts that they have. I actually really like kaleidoscopic, and the way that it looks, I think, especially from this 2020 year.

2026 year. Yeah. I'm into it. I, like, I was like, I think, though, that one would be, like, one that I would wanna put together a set of. Yeah.

Why? It just looks, like, there is a clean... Like, there is a cleanliness to the design, but there's still some color and pop there and, like, the sort of player image is, like, centered in a way that I think would would look really cool in a binder, like, as as as, like, a a little bit of a binder run. Yeah. Not to get too, like, weird about it and nerd out about it, but I do think kind of pulling in, like, the the nature elements.

Like, we kinda... The old kaleidoscopes were very sharp edge, kinda like techno space kinda feeling to me. Whereas right now, they're leaning into more of the nature flowery look based on the design, which is a little bit softer, which as I talk about integration into a personal collection, softer is easier to integrate into a collection. Whereas if you get all these choppy lines or, like, these really straight lines that are constantly interrupting each other like I'm thinking kaleidoscopes for kaleidoscopics from a couple years ago. It's a very different feeling.

I'd be curious to hear from the artists who designed that why they would make that change. You know, is this like, alright, maybe kaleidoscopics aren't getting the love we thought they were gonna get so we're gonna take it in another direction or maybe we just wanna switch it up. Either way, I love the direction they took that insert. I think it looks great. This year's looks really great.

Yeah. And cheap. Like, you could buy... Build a binder page for $10 probably for that. Like, it's...

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. For me, an insert that I suppose I don't see people talking about a lot, but...

Or as much as I would think they are, is next next day on card autos from Don Russ. Because autos and relics can be inserts, and this is an insert that just happens to have a... An autograph. And I simply think the on card nature of the card means it should be worth more. And so, I didn't...

I haven't seen these get as much hype as other cards that are, say, sticker autos or different inserts, so I'd go with that one. And then for defending a card, even if the hobby... The rest of the hobby didn't like it, I have two, which is one for college and one for WNBA. For college, I'm gonna go with Flight Club. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's from Bowman U Best, which is a product that has an interesting place in collegiate collecting because it's not the flagship, but yet it delivers a lot of innovation in the insert and the creativity aspect. And I think it really answers the mail on something that's just different looking.

It reminds me of inserts from, say, the nineties or early two thousands. I'm specifically thinking of the first year Juju Watkins Flight Club. It just looks so good. So good. Just in the in the sky with some clouds that make up flight club.

Just really good. And then for, yeah, for... And then I'm gonna go with image variations, for Bowman as well. But I don't know about WMBA. I'd probably go with Euphoria.

If everybody hated them, I would still like them from origins. Those flight clubs, that Juju flight flight club from 2024, that is such a, like, cool looking card. And I think one, that is pretty hard to hit. Right? Like Yeah.

There... I haven't seen a lot of them. And I think you're absolutely right on the next day autos. I I tended to... In my thinking on inserts, I I I wasn't really, including game worn and auto Yeah.

Stuff. But, like, the next day autos, that's some of the best stuff, out of Don Ross. That's kinda worth the price of admission for Don Ross Yeah. On its own. Cool.

Well, Mark, I... We're we're almost done an hour, but I think because we've been gone for two weeks, we do owe the listeners a little bit longer episode episode, if that's okay. So why don't we keep going? Sure. Awesome.

So when you think about staying power, meaning something's gonna stay in your PC for the long term versus something that's just happening in the market, I think, case hits introduce an interesting discussion. What do you kind of make of the current hype around case hits like downtown's color blast's fill in the blank case hit that's labeled on eBay as a case hit? What do you kinda think about that? So I, maybe I'm not the best person to talk about these because I'm not a downtown guy or a kaboom guy or a color blast guy. I like them fine.

Right? Like, I don't I don't... I... They don't make me angry. I I like them all enough.

Right? Like... But I don't love them as much as the hobby does. Right? And I think for me, I tend to gravitate a little bit away from consensus on inserts, when I can, Not because I want to be, like, this kind of iconoclastic guy, but for me, it's it's more affordable and actually a lot more fun for me personally When you get to play in a pond where there are fewer people splashing around and you get to find people...

Find inserts and things that people aren't transacting or, like, or pushing the prices up for, like... So those are, like... I I think they're I think they're cool. Right? Like, I I was just talking to someone the other day.

Like, the... I would love at some point to have, an Asia kaboom, like, from from her first year, but it's just like everybody else wants that a lot more than I do. And so I'll probably find something else. And for me, I think that's one of the dimensions of inserts. Like, I like the inserts until everybody likes them.

And then when everybody likes them, it's like, well, this is probably a card that's worth more to you than it is to me. And then I will probably start to find another insert. And, I think... I don't know if that's particular to inserts, but it... I...

I've noticed it happening more in terms of insert sets because I think, I think those have a little bit more of... They get a little bit more attention, throughout different periods of time. Yeah. I I I would underscore what you said, and and I'll kinda provide my thoughts. But I have another question for you, Mark, which is, do you think that the hobby or the market's emphasis on these kinds of case hit inserts make ordinary or more common inserts feel more disposable?

I... You know, I I I think to some extent, it does, but then it also, like, it also makes them a lot more affordable. Like, you you can take an insert, like, that doesn't get a lot of attention like, Don Russ courtside. Right? Like, it's actually not super commonly found.

It's it's it's a little bit more rare. But those inserts go for pretty cheap because nobody... Like, unless you know the product really well or unless you know the insert set really well, you're not chasing those insert sets. And so, I don't wanna give away too many of the trade secrets that are there. Right?

Like, there is, like, there is this, like, you know... I I think the negative side is, like, they... Some inserts are treated as more disposable, but then the positive side of that is if you're willing to do the research, you can put together, like, some really cool runs of inserts for fractions of the prices of some of these, more emphasized, more pumped inserts. Yeah. I completely agree.

For me, when I'm looking at inserts and thinking about it from, like, the market perspective, it's so hard because there's so much noise. The prices are noise. You know? The demand is noise. And I wanted to kinda bring in this concept from our friends Craig and Carmine over at Crosstown Cardboard.

They have a podcast where they talk about cool to cost ratio. It's this idea that, you know, if something's cool but it's cheaper, that's that's good. That's good return. That's a high ratio. If the opposite is true, that's probably not as good of a card to approach.

The idea that everyone else kinda moves the cost slider up on these case hit cards automatically for me moves the cool slider down. I'm sorry. Like, that's just how it works for me. If if if it costs a lot more, it needs to be ION's cooler than it was before because there's cheap cards that are just as cool to me as these particular cards. And so when we talk about kinda like the effect that case hits have on the more common or the less hyped inserts, I absolutely think that they make them feel...

Make them feel. It doesn't mean that they are. They make them feel more disposable because all that demand, all that purchasing power moving to one hub or one type of cart makes the other ones feel like they automatically have to punch above their weight and be so much more cooler to get that same respect. It kinda feels like they're starting 10 feet behind the starting line while case hits are already 10 feet ahead. It just doesn't feel fair with the way that the market is evaluating them right now.

And so either that tells you that, you know, this is a good buying opportunity to buy other cards or that case hits like kabooms, downtowns, and inserts or those types of inserts, they really are that cool to a lot of people. And so they are going to demand that attention, which is they could be true. It could be true. But for people like Mark and I, those are less intriguing because of just, like, the masses that float to them. Because to me, I feel like in order for me to go with the crowd of that, it needs to be so...

It needs to really, really knock my socks off. Otherwise, I'll just divert my attention elsewhere. And I think, you know, all kinds of... All of this kind of wraps back around to that identity point that you are making at the beginning. Right?

Like... And, the way that you think about your... I... Part of your identity is being a collector, but you are also a very specific kind of collector. Right?

Like... And you were not, like, you know, I I... Like, there are the cool things that you want, but then for you, something is not necessarily cool because other people tell you it's cool. Right? Like, there are a number of other factors that go into deciding when something is cool.

And, like, what you just described to me with your kind of cool to cost ratio where, actually, if the slider goes that... Too far that way, this slider actually keeps moving that way too. Right? Like... So the thing that would draw some people to some of these more popular inserts actually drives you away a little bit.

Yeah. Like, it requires a little bit more for you, for you to be into it. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, everybody has their own kind of, like, sliders, you know?

Like, even the slider itself could be different. But, like, for me, that's that's the way that I go based on a reaction. Mark, I have a question for you, which is, do you think that inserts have become, quote, too dependent on foil, flashy finishes, or artificial scarcity like what we talk about in terms of case hit odds? Yeah. I I I think the answer is yes.

And I think I, like, I think my answer is yes because I think transparency about inserts and their odds, would do the hobby a lot of good. Right? Like... But I think but I think that lack of transparency is part of, like, part of what leads to these things being pumped. Right?

Like... And you're you're getting thing... Cards pumped as, like, case hits where there are, like, several 100 copies of them, like, that are available... That that that can be available. And, like, a a case hit that has a print run of 400 to 500 is different than a case hit that has a print run of 10 to 20.

Yeah. And if we don't know what is what, right, like, we're kind of we're kind of moving without, some critical information to make, buying and collecting decisions that that we have. Like, for me, as someone that's a that's a buyer, if there's an insert that I want that I know only has 10 to 20 copies, I'm gonna move a lot faster on, like, that first copy that I see. Right? Like...

But then if I know that it's one in 24 packs and, like, there'll be 500 copies of it, well, then I can be a little bit more patient. But then I don't think we are in a hobby where patience is something that is always, that that, that hobby companies are looking for. Right? And so, and so we are reliant on these design things, these artificial scarcity things, and, like, I think we have to formulate plans to to navigate that, as best as possible. Yeah.

I agree. To kind of, like, weave back in the design element of it all, I do think, like, when I look at cards today, it's almost like we're throwing everything at the wall, and it's all sticking. Like, it's all... Like, we're just throwing every design element we can think of, every color, every parallel, everything. We're doing it all.

And I think for me, based on, you know, this entire episode of me conveying my love for simple and just, like, back to the basics, I would love to see us go back to things that are a little bit more simple, whether that be the type of card itself being paper instead of chrome, whether that be the insert being based on the different border or a different, like, logo or something happening in the card itself aside from revamping the entire identity of the card. I would love for us to go back from that... Go back to that or explore that or give that a space to breathe to see if it's well received. And I think that, you know, we do have that with blank slate a little bit. We're seeing that a little bit more in courtside, like, those kinds of inserts definitely, but that's what I want.

But I will caveat by saying this is coming from somebody that when I go to a card show, Mark, it feels like I am swimming against the current taste current. It it just, like... Everybody's current taste seems to be heading the opposite direction of mine. So I'm speaking from just, like, cold lunch collection, but, like, somebody else's collection could be totally different. But I just wish we could go a different direction or at least let...

If we're gonna proliferate with the number of inserts and parallels that we do, can we just, like, like, do a little bit experimentation with the simple designs? And I would love that. Yeah. I I think I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, I think bring back the card artists.

Right? Like... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That would be huge. I I would imagine, especially in the WNBA community, that would would be, like, super well received and something that would be valued. So, yeah, that that would be a good idea. Mark, do you think that every product... This is an interesting question.

Do you think every product needs an insert or needs inserts to support them, or do you think it would be possible to have products that don't... That aren't supported by inserts? So this is a great question. I... For me, I particularly want low end products to have inserts.

Right? Like... And this is a purely nostalgic thing. Right? Like, I want, you know, I want the kid that is buying a blaster at Target to have a chance at pulling a rare insert.

Right? Like, you know, one of my favorite, one of my favorite inserts is a retail insert, abstract that I think... That comes out of Select. Right? Like, I think those inserts kind of help, you know, carry some of those blasters in in really important ways.

I don't know. I mean, I suppose the high end stuff needs, like, needs to have, like, their their color blasts to hold to hold things up. But, like, you know, if you just had, like, the gold vinyls and the golds and, like, things like that, I think some of those products would be fine. But I think, you know, for me, it's more important that they're in the low end the low end products than they are in the in the high end products. Like, what do you think?

I'm torn. You know, I agree with your theories around just, like, how they would survive. Right? Like, that they need them to survive in some capacity. But if it was just me in a vacuum of, Caitlin, what do you want for your collection?

What's the perfect product look for you? It would have no inserts. There would not be a need for inserts. There... It would not leave anything...

The base would not leave anything to be desired. And I think the closest we get that... To that for my taste and personal personal present time is Ginter, is the closest that we get where every single base card delivers something to be said about it. I ripped the box of retail box of Ginter, and I was like, damn. These look nice.

Somebody did something here. I would love to see the kind of concept of photos and base cards speaking for themselves, and I think that that's something that Rittenhouse did get close to doing with the limited print runs of base cards. But in my mind, if you're like, Caitlin, create the perfect set, it would be like a stadium club ish card that has really good photos, minimal design, and creative... Like, the creativeness comes out through the fonts or the the very... The the selection of the photo is the creativity.

But I recognize that I'm probably speaking to a very minority of collectors that this is not how everybody feels. Yeah. They... No. That...

I was... I'm laughing because, like, I go to Ginter for the... Like, I love the base cards of Ginter first. Right? Like, they they are gorgeous.

They're beautiful. But, like, one of my favorite things about Ginter is, like, I can open a pack and I get, like, an insert of a bird or, like, an insert of, like, a a a president of, like, a a country in a a a country in Europe from 1930 or, like, a dog, like, insert. Like, the the inserts are, kind of what makes it quirky and fun for me. But, you know, that's like... This is this is like...

These are the different approaches to Yeah. To to the to the hobby that I think, I think both of us are probably, like, representing two different, like, small quarters of the hobby. Yeah. Yeah. We're on opposite sides of the spectrum, and the majority of people are probably somewhere in between us.

But, yeah, it's just interesting how we can operate in the same place. I would say we're operating on similar levels of information and knowledge that we have, and yet we come to different conclusions. And that's what collecting, you know, that provides the opportunity for people to do that. So it's been kind of cool to understand our differences in the niche that's niches that we occupy in the space mark. And I think that brings us to something that I'm excited to do which is the insert draft.

Now the concept here is interesting because I don't know how competitive if we're targeting the same people or the same inserts on our draft board, but what Mark and I did is that we each came up with say 10 inserts that we'd like to draft and we're gonna draft five. And so I believe I'm going to start because ladies first, and then Mark will go two picks, and then we'll go every other. And we're gonna try to build the best five card insert lineup on our own collecting philosophy, not simply, like, the market's understanding. It's just, like, our favorites. Yeah.

This is like... This could be like a wide pool. Are you being... Are you like the New York Liberty? Are you doing, like, international scouting?

Or Never never ever compare me to the New York Liberty again. Oh, no. No. I'm just kidding. Yeah.

This is gonna be fun, and then we'll post on our Instagram, and you guys can vote which camp you're in. So I'll be very curious. Mark, if you don't mind though, I'm gonna take first pick. Alright. With the first pick, I am taking impeccable's timeless moments autos.

Oh, I think this is a great choice. You get so much you get so much history. The, like, the photography is often really good. You get the on card autos. Okay.

Okay. So I get two. I am going to take... With my first pick, I'm gonna take select color wheel. Oh, okay.

Do... Wait. Before we go forward, do you have a specific year in mind, or you're just going with the insert itself? That's a good... This one I have general.

I don't know what the... Is there... I haven't seen color wheel. Yeah. At least I I...

Just in general. Okay. We'll go in general. So that's my first pick. And then I am going to take...

I'm looking at my list here. I'm gonna take, the prism color blast. Oh, okay. Okay. Case hit, mister case hit.

I like it. Those are two of my favorite looking case hit cards. The design on them, the color, I mean, they're both emphasized color. You... You're picking two color inserts here, Mark, which is Yeah.

I like the simplicity of of both designs and, like, the the way that there is, like, a particular color pop in them. Okay. I like that. I like that. Okay.

Here's my my second overall pick and the fourth pick, in the draft. I have a question for you, Mark, which is, do you consider twenty nineteen Dhanrest optic to be an insert or a parallel? That's a parallel. You think that's a parallel? That's a parallel?

Okay. Parallel. Okay. That's a parallel, folks. We've declared it here.

So I'm not going to pick that. I'm going to pick the one that I feel like recently I have fallen in love with, and that is the Origins Euphoria, specifically the twenty twenty four. Awesome. I was thinking about taking this with my third pick, but then I I realized I had stolen it from you once already, and I I couldn't do it twice. Okay.

So I got the, I got the fifth pick here. I am going with, with my fifth pick... With my third pick, I'm gonna go with, Don Russ WNBA 1997 executive collection. So the the throwback to The throwback. Yeah.

Because if you went with the 1997 executive collection, would that be considered a parallel, Mark? That would be a parallel. Okay. See? Now we're Yeah.

We're getting it. I like that pick, and I do like the arena ones that they came out with as well this year. Those are great too. Also good, but just first appearance being executive, that's what the callback is to 1997, the more rare one. I love that pick.

That was in my top 10 list. So you've taken that off my list and color blast off my list, which leads me to my third pick. So far, I have timeless moments autos and origins euphoria. And honestly, Mark, the one I'm going to go with next is a surprising one for me, but I just love it. One and one sneaker spotlights autographs.

Specifically, the Asia Wilson a one where she's wearing her... It's her shoe. That to me is a place in time, a moment in time, history being made on a card. I love it. So I'm gonna go with that one.

I, I overpaid an absurd amount for my Asia Wilson copy of... Like, because I totally agree. This is like, like, you know, I think this and the timeless moments, you're like... You're like league history, league cultural history Yes. Kind of, I I see what you're doing here.

Okay. I feel like we need to shout out some of the, less modern products. So what I am going to go to with my fourth pick, 2,000 FLIR Ultra trophy case. This is a 10 card, die cut set. I think it's, like, one in 12 packs.

Just, I think, like a like a cool little die cut set. If you have a 12 page binder page, something that can take up 10 of the 12 slots there, I I think this is the, this is my, this is my fourth pick. I like it, Mark. That's a good one. I'll also throw it back.

I did wanna get a good... Like, to create a a five card lineup, I did wanna get a good diversity of era. I think if I focus too too much on ultra modern, I'm gonna lose the voting in the polls, I will say. So I'm going to diversify a little bit. And I'm going to go to 1997 Pinnacle My Town.

Oh. Kurt. That was going to be my fifth pick. Good job. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. I love My Town. And why do you love it, Mark? It's like the...

To me, it's that the first... Like like, the first cool insert in the first set. Right? Like, that's... You know, like, I I do...

In inserts, I do like firsts. Yeah. Like, like, the the sort of first appearance of something. And... Yeah.

I like it. That's my same reason. I think Coop, Rebecca Lobo, and Lisa Leslie are in the set, I believe. Right? So it's like a, you know, a pretty strong representation of, like, first year WNBA.

Alright, Mark. Your final pick, it better not be the one that I want. So So I, like, I had another, like, a older insert that I was really interested in, but there's an insert that I can't believe is still available. And so I think I have to take it. I will give a shout out to, like, two thousand one Fleer tradition global game, like a nice little cosmopolitan insert.

That was probably gonna be my pick. But then since this one's available, this is what I'm gonna take. With my fifth pick, I'm taking Origins blank slate. Okay. You're not gonna hear an argument from me.

That is a great card. I also had that on my list. I love the blank slate. Everything about it meets everything that I've been preaching in this podcast episode, so that's a great one. To round out, I guess, mis irrelevant of the draft, pick number 10, last pick.

I'm gonna throw it back again, and I'm gonna go with something that usually isn't up my alley, which is a die cut and something from a long time ago. Well, a long time ago for me before I was born, which is 2000 Skybox Girls Rock. Oh, yeah. Yeah. These, to me, show some sort of similarity.

Maybe I'm, like, just making this up, but a little bit of similarity to the molten, whatever those are called in the in the NBA space, like the molten metal die cut when it's like that. It's a similar shape, I think. So I think I'm gonna go with that because it really caps off just the evolution that we've came... Like, how far we've come and gone from inserts. That's where I would go, Mark.

This is such a cool set. When I was doing research for this, right, like, the two sets... Two of the sets that I was like, I think I might wanna put these together in the off season. It was the Girls Rock and, the the global game Yeah. Set.

They... They're just... They do... They they... And they do kinda...

The the shape of them are are like... I I think it was the molten metal. Yeah. Yeah. Really cool.

So just something different, something where they tried something and maybe it maybe it didn't continue on. We're not... We don't have that legacy element, but we definitely have the checklist and we definitely have the design. And to me, it just brings me back to a different era. And I think that inserts that can do that really are meeting the mark of purpose, having a purpose of being in the set instead of just, you know, checking the box and saying we have an insert.

Those fulfilled the space. So that's where I capped it off. But, Mark, I think we both came away with a pretty diverse, whether that be, era or product assortment. How do you feel about how your draft went? I feel pretty good.

You know? I've been waiting for the email from Yahoo that grades my draft, and I feel confident that it's at least a passing grade. Okay. Well, we'll put this up on the Instagram for folks to vote. I'm very curious to see if you guys felt like we missed a huge one.

I feel like if you're gonna tell me kaboom needs to be in there, unfortunately, I'm just gonna like your message and that's gonna be it because I don't really know what to say. That's... Kaboom didn't make it. They're a second round pick. I think they're a second round pick, Mark.

They look great. I... Like I I... Like I said, if anybody wants to sell me and Asia Wilson Kaboom at, you know, I don't even know what comps are. I think I I am interested.

But, you know, everybody else just kind of likes it more than me. And so I remember I had a a kaboom of somebody. I think it might have been Fi or some, not Fi, somebody else. And I had it and I was like, wow, those look nice in hand. Like, I kinda get it.

I kinda get it. But for my draft, I think I'd rather have, like, say, a girl's rock occupying that space than say a kaboom. But, yeah, we got some case hits. We got some more common inserts. We got some old inserts, some new inserts.

That was super fun, Mark. Before we kinda close out today's episode, I know you're kinda owning the buzzer beater. So what's the buzzer beater this week? Alright. So we just spent an entire episode talking about inserts.

So let's, let's end with some base card love. Okay. What is your favorite WNBA base card? And for me, personally, I am not allowed to pick revolution because that's always my answer. And so...

But if you would like to, that's fine. That's just the... That's the rule for me. Okay. Well, good on you for imposing guardrails on this question.

I like that. Challenging thoughts. For me, my answer was immediate, which is 2023 origins. There are not many products to me that satisfy the extreme level of simplicity that my brain requires in cards, as I just talked through on the episode about how much I need it to be clean, I need it to be not so busy, and yet I still expect some fraction of creativity and artistry to appear on the card. To me, twenty twenty three origin strikes that balance of making the player pop off the background and the background not being distracting, but yet somehow adding.

And so I'm gonna go with twenty twenty three Origins. Origins getting a whole lot of love, in today's episode. Bring it back. Bring it back. For me, it...

This has been, like, a a kind of a recent ongoing development, but the set... The the base set card that has really been growing on me is actually twenty eighteen Rittenhouse. Right? Like, there... There's a way...

Especially now with with Gabby being finals MVP, you know, then... And then, of course, Asia's rookie card. And we have Jordan Canada and Kelsey Mitchell and, like, a a... Like, a bunch of other players that I I... I'm missing out.

Like, there's a way that for me, this set is starting to give me eight nineteen eighty six Fleer vibes that is just, like, like, the sort of set that I imagine when I'm, like, randomly thinking of cards. Right? Like, this kind of iconic looking design and, like, the the sort of cleanliness of the design. The shine. The the the players that are...

They have the shine, the players that are, the players that are featured there as rookies, the the way that it's, like, the last Rittenhouse set right before we get into this, prism, Panini reentry, I think that's the one that I'm leaving with. Like, it's like the last big hurrah. It feels like they really put it all out there before they left and it reminds me of back in the day, I'm I'm not an NBA collector so like I don't have like the knowledge here but like I think it was like Avant, like something like that where there's the box like a... It's like a box with a background around it and then the player appears coming in and out of that box. Twenty eighteen Rittenhouse executes the same concept with a little bit more, I guess, discipline in that the photo sticks within that allotted box.

Add to that the Asia Wilson of it all that she adds so much credibility to that set, sort of how you said with the MJ and the 86 Flir. I think that's an incredible pick and I think when I look at those cards specifically specifically for me the Maya Moore in that set it just... Yes it just looks right. It balances, it strikes that level of simplicity that I require so I think that, Mark, that's an incredible pick and I endorse it. I endorse it fully.

Awesome, well I think that that's the last shot of the of the episode that's the buzzer beater folks. We went a little bit over hopefully, you saved up some time from our absence last week, to take in this hour and a half episode. I can't believe we just did that but thank you for being here. Just a couple quick reminders we're at WMBACardpod on Instagram and all the cards that we ripped on this episode will be given away to one of you guys so check that out. And if you're a video podcast person for some reason and like to see our faces while we're talking, our video episodes release one day early on the Stacking Slaps Patreon.

Mark, any words of wisdom, I guess, to the listeners before we hit end recording? Have a great week, loyal listeners, and don't forget, everyone watches women's sports.