What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the WNBA card podcast here on the Stacking Slabs Network hosted by my good friend, Caitlin, at Cold Lunch Cards.

This is season three, episode three coming at you. Thank you to Great Lakes Trading Cards and Card Ladder for sponsoring the WNBA card podcast.

In today's episode, we are diving into Bowman Chrome University women's basketball cards, and the question we're exploring is, what would need to be true for Bowman Chrome U to mirror the performance and popularity of Bowman draft picks and prospects in baseball?

That first stamp, that Bowman first stamp has me thinking, and we dive into this conversation on the heels of women's college basketball starting.

And it was a ton of fun. I wanna thank you, the listener of the WNBA card podcast for your engagement and for your contributions to the mailbag.

We get into some of that mailbag today. If you wanna participate, do that at WNBA card pod on Instagram. If you wanna show your support for stacking slabs further, hit the follow button, get the rest of what we're putting out over here.

Tell a damn friend. Run on over to the Patreon group. We are getting ready to talk about Bowman Chrome University.

This conversation was a whole lot of fun. WNBA card podcast season three episode three coming at you. Welcome back. Loyal listeners of the stacking slabs podcast to season three, episode three of the WNBA card podcast.

My name is Caitlin. I go by at cold lunch cards on the Instagram machine and pretty much everywhere else on the Internet. And I'm joined by my incredible cohost, Brett McGrath at Stacking Slabs.

And we're excited to continue to bring collector driven and community focused content to your headphones, to your radio, to wherever you're listening or watching us today. We appreciate you being here as a part of season three.

Brett, how are you doing today? I'm doing well. My mind right now, and this is a preview for the audience, is in college basketball and most specifically women's college basketball.

And I'll say this, like, I don't know about you and you, the audience member, but for me, I am a way bigger fan in 2025 of women's college basketball as opposed to women's college basketball.

And I've asked women's over men's. And I'm trying to explore that, like, why how did we get here with myself, and there's a lot of different factors.

I think a big one is, like, NIL has really changed things. And so as I'm thinking about this in preparation, right, there's a lapse between WNBA and college ball tipping off.

I figured, let's talk about women's college basketball from the perspective of collecting. And we've had a few of these, and so I just felt like this was a good time and a good topic.

But I'm ready. I'm a Notre Dame fan. I'm wearing my my, Notre Dame cap as we record this, in tribute, which maybe not as big of a powerhouse going into this season as previous seasons, but I am I'm ready to go.

I'm excited. How are you, Caitlin? I'm doing well. Like you said, we're we're post WNBA now moving into the collegiate ball sphere all while, our other favorite sports are playing.

So it's been a conflicting, interests for, television screen time, for watching these games. But, yeah, I'm excited about college ball, and I'm excited to talk about it.

Just for some background info, like, I graduated from the University of Minnesota, and as much as I would love to, like, group for them, they hardly ever make it to the NCAA, tournament, which makes it kind of interesting to operate as more of a neutral fan in the zone and a neutral collector.

So I hope to get into some of that. It's odd because I kind of pride myself on team fandom. And in college ball, my team doesn't have much to be excited about, at least at the moment.

There's definitely some highlights in the past and hopefully some highlights in the future, but as we operate today, I'm a fan of, a lot of players at a lot of different schools.

Alright, Brent. Before we get into it, because I'm excited to talk about Bowman Uchrome and collecting and all that, why don't we tip-off with our sponsors today?

At the time of this release of this episode, Great Lakes Trading Cards women's card show will be happening the day after on November 2 at Dual Citizen Brewery between twelve and 5PM.

I'd encourage anybody that's local to the, Saint Paul area or even further out to Minnesota or the surrounding states to make that trek out.

It sounds like they're gonna have some great dealers, some good beer, and lots of good women's sports cards. So, just a reminder, support your local card shop, especially if it's Great Lakes.

And also shout out to our good friends at Card Ladder, the official data provider of the WNBA card podcast, helping power each and every one of these episodes. If you're not using Card Ladder already, what are you doing?

Go sign up. Caitlin, I'm gonna been making a lot of observations. We're gonna dive into the topic. But I just, like, recently have had this excitement brewing in my stomach around collecting collegiate cards.

It hasn't been specific to women's college basketball. I think I shared with you, which I'm not gonna reveal because this is not the time or place, but I recently bought another college card that I'm very excited for it to land.

And just thinking about this time and place we're in in college sports, we're gonna primarily be talking about Bowman U Chrome from, like, a product perspective.

But I also wanted to just, like, kick this off by saying, if you are paying attention, if you are looking at the communications, if you are seeing what companies are putting out, there is a lot of focus around college sports and I think it makes sense.

Right? NIL affords these brands the opportunity to showcase these collegiate athletes in new and exciting ways.

To me, this is the most fun period of time in college. We're treating college, athletes like superstars before they step into the, professional sphere, whatever sports they're playing.

But also, I think, you know, with the current state and conditions of the industry and Panini losing the NBA license and the NFL license ahead, start paying attention to what what Panini is putting out.

I think Panini is emphasizing their role in college sports, which will likely translate into college collecting.

So all of that on top of last week, I can't even recall. Caitlin, I think you were talking about, like, the transition of someone's like Bowman Chromie first into, like, their rookie card as we were talking about Donruss.

And I was like, you know what? Like, let's, like, just dig into that and dig into it from the perspective of Bowman Chrome you. And feels like a good time to just do that, especially before the new season tips off.

So those are just, like, the my casual opening remarks of this conversation. Caitlin, I know you've gotten a chance to digest this agenda, but did you do you have any, like, opening remarks or state statements before we get into this?

I think I am very critical of a lot of products that are put out, especially ultra modern product.

And I think Bowman Chrome, Chrome, but specifically the Bowman U Chrome brand, not Bowman U Sapphire, not Bowman U Best, which are also good products, but Bowman U Chrome is one of my favorite products, not only to collect, but also to buy and make a quick buck.

And so I'm excited to talk about it. This was kind of the the market that kind of transitioned me into the WNBA card collecting space, during the Caitlin Clark boom at Iowa.

So I'm interested to dive in, and, hopefully, this conversation, I can learn more from it as well. So I'm excited. Let's get into it.

So another compelling reason for why this is happening too is the reminder, we have the foot Bowman Chrome You Football product coming out or it will have it will be out by the time you're listening to this, which, I'm, I'm hunt I'm hunting.

I won't say specifically, but if you see any Notre Dame reds or super fractures out there, preferably non auto.

I'm a here's a question for you. Are you, are you the do you prefer, like, a nice parallel with or without the auto for Bowman Chrome?

For Bowman Chrome, I'll go no auto. For Bowman Best, I'll go auto because they're usually on card. Well, that's, that's a great clarifying, point, and I love the way you you operate. But, anyways, you see the cool stuff, get at me.

But what I wanna do and what I can't get my mind off of because it might not be widespread, but if you're in collector circles and you, like, if you interact with a college collector, there's a ton of excitement about Bowman Chrome University.

And I think you see the $78,000 Caitlin Clark Superfractor sale from last year that we spent a lot of time talking about.

And there there just continues to be the steady momentum around this product. There are people and narratives in this space that says, don't collect college cards. I hate these types of narratives. It's like, where do they come from?

Why? Don't collect college cards because they'll lose value once they become pros. Okay. I just set the stage for this conversation. Like, the world we're living in now with NIL is completely different than the world, we have lived in.

So the parallel, no pun intended, Caitlin, that I can't get out of my head is just the lineage and legacy from the baseball draft picks product, draft picks and prospects, Bowman, where you have a an entire segment of the baseball card market that is laser focused on Bowman every year, and they're chasing it from a prospecting perspective, and they've got the Bowman first tag on it.

And those cards, like, thinking about, like, the most desirable rookie cards of these baseball players, like, those are the cards people turn to. Mhmm.

And so it has me thinking about just like, well, since there is a product, although they're they're not in, like, their WNBA farm system uniforms, like, whatever the equivalent would be with baseball, like, they're in their collegiate uniforms, which has an audience and has that first tag.

So has me thinking, like, is there an opportunity to start thinking about these cards from the perspec same perspective that baseball card collectors think about Bowman?

So question out of the gate, it's a hot one. What would need to be true for Bowman Chrome University women's basketball cards to mirror the performance and popularity of Bowman draft picks and prospects in baseball?

I think we're seeing a lot of it. What would be true is an interesting question because I think a lot of the things are already true.

We're setting the foundation, and I think that that's being executed and exemplified because of NIL, like you mentioned. But I'll say this. The first word that comes to mind when I think about this situate this scenario is pipeline.

And that's that's what drives the Bowman baseball collectors, is this idea of not only, like you said, a kind of farm system where it's like before they hit the pros, but it's also about collecting players that mean something to that team.

And I think that that lineage, that legacy, that emotional connection through a pipeline, through a sustained amount of time is what's going to build up the women's college basketball or men's college basketball, Bowman first kind of logo to be equivalent or at least mirror the performance of Bowman baseball.

And I think, you know, we're so early in this. I think the first Bowman product was 2021, twenty twenty two ish.

We're only three ish years into this. Bowman baseball has been going on a lot longer, and Bowman baseball collectors have been trained to kind of appreciate the longevity of that collection.

So while we're still in the early stages, you can definitely see it taking off if that pipeline of both generational talent of players, but also the pipeline of product, which when you hit on it in the opening about how, you know, pay attention to what Panini is gonna be doing, where they allocate their resources as they lose some of these professional license.

I think that pipeline of product has no signs of slowing down. So I think all the things are there for it to be true. It's just about kind of waiting the long game.

As I was digging into this, and maybe this is just something that's on my mind in thinking about products, and this might be jumping ahead a little bit, but I feel like it's it's a good stage setter, which is, do you feel like it is okay for the men's and the women's cards to be all in the same product?

Do you think that's a good thing? Do you wish it were different? Like, what's what's your perspective just based on the current configuration of the product?

As it stands today, at the time of recording, right now, I like it being, like, co gender. I like having both the men's and the women's basketball players in it, because we're still building the women's momentum.

I think we've seen the success and the money has followed, and we're really showing that in terms of, you know, both the league but also collegiately. Fandom is higher than ever. The money is higher than ever.

But at the same time in the hobby, women's sports cards haven't really caught on at the same pace. I think we saw that with Caitlin Clark, and she brought in an entire new market of collectors that maybe wouldn't have without her.

But my point being that when you put men and women at the same level in the same product, it creates the same designs, it creates the same chases across genders, which kind of normalizes the women's sports cards being there.

And let me be clear, I think the men's college basketball cards are benefiting more from the women being in there right now than the other way around.

But I do think that kind of proximity and visibility and equality to men's sports is helping elevate the women's sports cards for sure.

What I think is interesting about these cards in this era and what I what I can't figure out, and you might be able to help me with it or maybe you don't know either, but, like, my question that I keep asking myself is, are these cards are collectors starting to view these as, like, pre WNBA long term holds?

Or are these cards cards that collectors or investors or flippers or whatever label you wanna put are just buying to then resell because the narrative of don't collect college cards, they won't be worth anything when they jump into the pros.

Like, how do you see what people are doing with these cards right now? Is it long term? Is there a potential?

Or is it mostly just, like, short term transacting? Why not both? I think a lot of the long term holds are definitely happening with the big household names like, you know, Caitlin Page, Juju, throw Sarah Strong in there.

Like, you could go down the list of people that folks think have a clear trajectory to successful pro WNBA careers.

That means that, you know, those players have transcended kind of the on the play on the court play and have gone beyond the box score, and I think those players are really the ones that are driving that long term kind of asset view of a card, at least in the market.

But I do think, while I truly believe in my heart of hearts that that's a myth about college cards not holding value, I do think a lot of people, maybe are are thinking that or pressured to thinking that, and therefore, they act in a certain way when it comes to investing and flipping and see these more as short term preliminary, like, pre WNBA cards.

They're just a means to an end to get to the next step. That's not my belief, but I definitely think some people operate like that, which makes it seem like it in the marketplace.

I think, yeah, with women's college hoops, to me, the maybe more than any other collegiate sport or or close, but just feels like the identity of the players that we see in the WNBA.

Like, if I see Stewie having a good game, I always associate her with UConn based on Mhmm.

What her success she had in college. And I can't say the same, like, I watched, you know, Jonathan Taylor do what Jonathan Taylor does and score three more touchdowns this week.

And there wasn't, like, one time where I was like, man, like, he was great at Wisconsin. Although, he was great at Wisconsin, but, like, my my mindset is him already as a pro.

So I don't know, like but that's just the way I look at it. So I don't know if other people kinda feel the same way as they watch professional sports as well. Yeah. That's an interesting thought.

I have so many theories as to why that is, and I think we're get we're gonna get into it here soon. Yes. Okay. So I wanna talk about NIL. And I also wanna, like, shine a light on this, and I led with it upfront for individuals.

But, like, if you just look at the moves, like, what Panini has been doing, and it's like, they're releasing individual, like, you can buy a blaster of, like, Ohio State football cards.

You the look at what they're doing with, these deals, like signing Paige, signing Caitlin.

Like, I think as Topps set the stage for their future, Panini inevitably knew, like, the hand that was gonna be dealt to them, so they have been moving in the background, which I think is good because I think it's what we're going to see is we're gonna see competition between opt in and panini around college cards, which is which is awesome.

NIL, like, I literal like, I'm like, should I care about this?

Like, I'll see some update about, like, some, like, freshmen in high school, and I'll be like but their verbal commit to Notre Dame was like, should I get 12 years old and they're getting paid college.

Yeah. The next number one is a 12 year old. It's like it's like, maybe this is a little weird.

But, anyways, like, NIL, I think the the fact that it exists is, like, opens this whole new industry. So my question to you is how have you observed that NIL has impacted the way we collect women's basketball cards, if at all?

Okay. So I think it's interesting because I think that there's this kind of psychological concept tied to collecting regarding being right and just, like, kind of making a dart throw and being able to look back and be like, I was right.

And it doesn't have to be necessarily that you love the player or felt emotional connection. It's it's more so to kinda, like, just peacock a little bit of, financial acumen.

And I think the earlier collector buys in to a player or feels like they discovered a player early on, the more rewarding that can be either emotionally or financially.

And I think that NIL has kind of become this breeding ground for that kind of behavior, from a collector.

So while it might not feel as natural as, hey, you know, my favorite player on my favorite team, I'm gonna buy them up because I just really like them.

I do think there is something to be said about this kind of discovery mindset, which then creates that emotional or financial connection, not the other way around. This you you struck a a chord with me.

You know why you struck a chord with me, Caitlin, is because while my approach to, like, the Bowman stuff has been heavily weighted on my the way I think about collecting, which is collect my favorite team, I e, like, collect Notre Dame Mhmm.

In this category, there is a component to it that is very, very intriguing to me, and it's exactly what you said.

It's well, I can take this little sliver, which I don't do broadly because I know I'll lose all my money because I've just been around this space for too long.

But, like, I can use a little bit of funds. And because I'm watching these games and because I've read these articles or I've seen Sarah Strong play last year, this this could've been you last year.

Right? And it's like, I'm gonna go buy some of her cards because no one else is talking about her.

And that, like, that's, like, what the hobby is predicated on, and I think I don't think enough people at this point realize that they don't have to give up their collecting and they can scratch that itch this way and point it in this direction, but they people just haven't, like, quite connected the dots the way you articulated it with that, which I think is a really good thing, and it's really exciting when people start to connect those dots.

Absolutely. It's fun. And I think that's, like, the main theme here is that, you know, when we brought up when you brought up the idea of talking about Bowman Huchrohn, I was excited because I've had so much fun in this space.

And I think that college collectors really value the fun and the excitement of that kind of, like, discovery stage.

And it gives you the opportunity to kinda, you know, fail and and try again. Because like you said, you can afford to get in. Even if it doesn't work out, you could maybe you can buy cards for under $5 of some of these players.

You know? Hitting the fun topic one more time. Is it fun because of everything we said? I think the answer is yes. But, also, is it fun because we can buy these cards and, hell, even buy boxes and feel like we can afford it?

Does that factor into the fun here? Absolutely. I mean, like, you talk about the ratio of, like or the idea of, like, leverage.

I don't feel over leveraged in Bowman U Chrome. I don't feel like I'm spending above my means. Whereas if I'm buying WNBA Prism, like, that is a lot of money to be spending on boxes of cardboard, no matter if you get a great hit or not.

Whereas Bowman U Chrome, you know, it's just a little bit more affordable, easier entry price, kind of a an easier lot potential loss to swallow, which I think increases the fund because it brings down the pressure level.

So, again, I'm gonna continue to bring up this parallel between the two, but, like, I understand, like, Bowman, for the most part, these baseball, these players are, like, wearing the jerseys, and so we visualize it.

And I understand with this topic, they're wearing a different jersey for the NBA.

Do you think that the kinda college cardboard legacy cards in this scenario that we're kinda we're posturing about and talking about, do you think this could end up being more important than their WNBA rookie cards?

One, it's always up to the personal collector for your collection. Anybody can have a different answer, but I'm talking broadly, very generally, and with my perspective.

I think with most questions that you asked me, I answer yes and no. And so I'll do the same here, which is that I believe it's predicated on when a player peaks in a person's eyes or in the market's eyes.

So if they have national visibility on a very historic collegiate run, set tons of records, capture the hearts and minds of folks that maybe hadn't tuned into a game before.

I think the collegiate cards are gonna hold their value more than a player who say did the opposite and kind of was underwhelming at the collegiate stage, joined the WNBA and became, you know, a pretty vital player to one of those, 13 franchises.

And I think that in that case, the rookie w cards end up taking over the hobby narrative, but that, you know, it's definitely there's a potential.

And we've seen that some players do peak in college, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. And that people wanna remember them by their college days, their college uniforms, and not necessarily by their WNBA team.

So we've got this podcast about WNBA cards, and part of the reason why we we decided to do this is there was no one else really doing it.

And, you know, just taking that, for example, that just indicates that the WNBA card market, although we're excited about it, it's growing, you you know, year over year or month over month.

It's still nowhere near as mature and is established as many of the other categories.

So, like, I I was thinking about this as you're talking, Caitlin. Like, do you think the fact that, like, the professional, like, the professional, side of this equation is in that build mode. It's not in the established mode.

Do you think that, like, that presents more opportunity for the collegiate cards or less opportunity? And, like, drawing comparisons to, like, well, in NBA, there's a million products and they're gonna come out every other week.

And so, obviously, people who are collecting the college stuff will lose interest or transition to one of the, you know, 20 products that come out on the NBA side. Like, how do you think about the kind of the two sides of that?

It's interesting. You asked about opportunity, and I think was the the main theme here. And I think that, there's opportunity because of that dynamic in both places, both at the collegiate level and at the pro level.

And to kinda set some, like, historical generalized context, you know, historically, women's college hoops have been given the media attention, the, financial deals, the legitimacy because of their proximity to an established program, their legitimacy because of an NCAA tournament that that mirrors the same layout as a men's tournament.

They were given that kind of public perception, whereas the WNBA was never never marketed ever as the equivalent to the NBA.

And because of that, the collegiate level was seen as sort of the main stage, and then you just kind of matriculated into the WNBA.

And there was nothing. There was I mean, like, there are some things, but we have to be real here is that it has grown exponentially the past couple years.

And so because of that, I think there's opportunity both at the collegiate level for that maturity there compared to the WNBA, where we have lots of fandom, we have historical runs, we you know, Stewie is a figure of college basketball.

You know, she's not talked about in women's college basketball history. She's talking about college basketball history, whereas the WNBA always gets that kind of qualifier.

And I think that's the opportunity for the WNBA is they have room to grow in that regard on their own. So yes, for opportunity, I think there's opportunity in both spaces. I love, where you went with that.

And I also say, to me, just as a consumer of collegiate women's basketball content, it feels like there's more it has gotten the coverage, but nationally, there's been more coverage, I think, than ever before.

And there's a lot of excitement and momentum, and you see, you know, the women's team selling out and the men's team's not selling out.

So a lot of energy around, you just post like Caitlin Clark in Iowa, it's like there's still a ton of energy in there.

You're seeing updates of signing, you know, five star recruits. So that program is is becoming, I don't live in Iowa, but I don't know, just as popular as the football team, which is, Yeah.

I don't the women's basketball team in Iowa, they are a loud crowd. Let me tell you that. As somebody living in Minnesota, I can hear them over the thorns, and they they definitely, permeate the, Iowa, Minnesota border.

And they take you know, this is what's disappointing them. I love I'm going on tangent here, but I love that Iowa is expanding and getting their flowers and all these things.

But they're taking away all of our Minnesota high school recruits that are supposed to be improving my program, and they're all going down to Iowa.

So anyways, now I'm just complaining about that. The it sounds like the Caitlin Clark effect is affecting you and Yeah. And your squad. So I think the like, what Fanatics is looking for is like, hey.

Can we translate, or yeah. Translate cards into fandom and fandom into cards and, like, can we, by showing up and marketing our product in these arenas or to these fans, can we get more collectors?

And so I think that's like they've talked about that. And now my question to you is, do you think college fans are becoming collectors?

Like, is that something you think is happening or is going to happen kind of as we're dissecting kind of all the different facets of this conversation? Absolutely. It's already happening.

I think it's no secret, that some folks love college basketball, football, what insert sport here are more than the professional league because of the ties to school identity and a community of belonging and this idea of owning a tangible piece, something you can hold of that belonging.

And I think that, you know, college collectors are discovering or college fans are discovering the idea of collecting, and that's very enticing.

And so absolutely, I think that Bowman You and the college products are converting fans into collectors. I wanna talk about branding and what it how it makes us feel and also, like, branding on these cards.

I can tell you that there is something that I I get lit up inside if I see a Bowman Chrome U card and I see the, let's say, the gold refractor, and then I see the gold Notre Dame jersey, and then I look in the corner and see the ND logo, which is I'm wearing on my hat.

It's like all of those things.

It's like, it can go against any conventional wisdom I had. It like but I'm like pushed towards, like, wow. That card is amazing. And I'm, like, questioning, like, why do I think that? And it's because it makes me feel something.

The presentation is so, like, how do you think that impacts not only, like, how we think about collecting college cards, but just, like, the broader masses of hardcore college fans across the nation.

It's interesting. College fans have such a, like, high affinity for their team.

Like, they just will defend it to they could suck so bad and, like, they're proud of that. And I see like, just to, like, throw it like an example. It's like max tion, you know, like the Mac, it's like, it doesn't matter how bad it is.

I'm here for when it's bad. And so I love them. And I think like, you talk about seeing these different features that show up on a cards that kind of draw you in, when I see the M, the Minnesota M on a card, I'm like a moth to a light.

I'm like, Well, I need that because without it, am I a Minnesota collector? Like, you know what I mean?

So I definitely feel that and I think that the logos, the colors, even like mascots or even the backgrounds, like on the back of some of the Minnesota cards, you can see like Target Center or if they're playing in like an exhibition game or you can see the field or the court.

And I think that, you know, if that element wasn't there and it was kind of an anonymous card where it's like this player just exists in this broader context, it wouldn't have the same draw to me.

So I definitely think, like, the branding and the logos coupled with the lineage of the set itself is definitely, like, major consideration for collectors, at least for us based on what we said.

So linking this back to kinda WNBA, I'll say this, like, before this, I did a quick scan and card ladder of some of some sales, just collegiate sales, and looked at Caitlin Clark specifically.

And people are still buying her Iowa cards, and it's not just exclusive to her. So I'm curious, like, are we seeing true carryover from college to WNBA in card value?

Like, what's what are your observations there? I think so. And I think a lot of people will try to kind of hurt this narrative just because of Caitlin Clark's injury.

Like, the data isn't isn't true clean data because Clark went from college to pros, had a shot, got hurt, and then people might credit the injury downswing to it just being merely because she entered the pros.

So I think it's kinda hard to tell the data wise.

But to your point of just, like, carry over between NCAA and or college to WNBA, I think that having an entry point, an alternative entry point, whether that be dollar wise, meaning, you know, Bowman UChrome is much cheaper than WNBA Prism, or emotional wise, meaning I have a deeper connection with Keaton Clark because I watch for Iowa and say I'm not a fan of the fever.

Well, that might create another entry point for you.

And I think that when we couple that with the idea of watching a player kind of, quote, unquote, grow up in a system, you know, that discovery phase we touched on earlier and go from being, say, use Paige Becker's here.

Go from being freshman of the year to National Champ to Rookie of the Year. We kind of carry over a lot of fans and fandom into the WNBA.

And I think because of that, it creates collective behavior to continue collecting them, whether that be in the collegiate uniform or in the pro uniform. I can say this just in my own personal discovery. I have had Clark Bowman cards.

I've never had the exact card I wanted, and I'm not gonna say that on here, but I will say that in exploring the price point of those cards, even post injury, it is it's it I feel like I missed I could never find what exactly I wanted, but now that I found it, it's like I feel like from a price point perspective, like, maybe you just get sued.

Yeah. So this is is Clark. And I I feel like we've done a pretty damn good job of, like, not, like, looking at everything on this show from the Caitlin Clark point of view, but undeniably, she's the example in this topic.

Do you think she's the blueprint for what we're what we're talking about here, or do you think she's just the one off?

Well, I I'm optimistic. I think she's the blueprint, and I think it's because she really, broke that glass ceiling. You know what I mean? She stress tested what was possible in the male dominated hobby and in male dominated sports.

And I think that the infrastructure that we're talking about, whether that be NIL, the Bowman U product, the media coverage, the better deals that are happening in both college and the pro levels now exists for other players to follow.

And I think that it's helpful to have those generational names and talents like Paige Beckers, Juju Watkins, Sarah Strong, who, you know, are coming up that pipeline.

And if that that infrastructure, that stress test, or those players didn't exist, maybe I would be a little bit more skeptical about, the one off.

But I I truly do think, like, everything there is there now for our players to take advantage of, and collectors have been proven now that, you know, there are sales to back it up, which everybody wants to see a comp.

Everybody wants to see the proof. The proof is there. So now it's just about following the lead.

Alright. Let's final, one on this topic before we move on to the next segue is we started this by talking about baseball, which is find another podcast that'll tie, women's college basketball collecting with baseball cards.

But tying it back to Bowman Baseball, like, from what you've observed, I know you're not a baseball card collector.

I'm not a baseball card collector. But which of those strategies that Bowman Baseball used do you think, you know, will work best for women's, basketball cards or collegiate women's basketball cards in terms of future demand?

One word. And the word is consistency. I think Bowman U baseball, like I said, has kind of trained collectors to expect a certain type of card, certain types of parallels, certain card structure, certain features on those cards.

It also has existed for a long time, and collectors respond to that kind of layout, and they see it as kind of a comfortable, familiar place.

And I think that once we kind of build that that consistency in the women's college basketball ecosystem, we're gonna see similar collector psychology, being happening.

And I think that, you know, responding to both the scarcity of the cards themselves is gonna be important, but also to the story lines within them.

And I think we see that in baseball is that, you know, these guys are growing up in their farm system, and then eventually, you know, some of them move on to the big stage.

And I think similarly, the the same kind of prospecting mindset will carry over to women's college basketball cards, despite the fact that they're shown in not the same uniforms that they'll be wearing at the pro stage.

We're going to, kinda tie this in with the one card that sold this week, ShoutOut Card Ladder, the official data provider of the NBA podcast.

I am showing on the screen a 2425 Bowman Chrome Yu Juju Watkins Auto Gold Refractor at a 50. This card is raw and it's sold for $500 now. Couple things for the audience who doesn't pay attention.

This is not her first. This is her first in the USC here, and Juju Watkins, if you've been living under a rock, has been dealing with a a knee injury. And, it's not like she's going to be ready to go play this year.

And to me, in this area that we've been talking about, that's it seems like a pretty strong sale, but what say you, Caitlin? Like, based on everything we just talked about, like, what's your reaction to this JuJu sale?

Personally, as somebody holding way too much Juju Watkins that I bought before the injury, I thought the sale would be higher. But that is a biased statement. I do still think that, it's a really good a really good place.

And I think that this is a really good price. And I think that the second year of it all is interesting to see play out because Juju is kind of this perfect bridge between the NIL era and WNBA prospecting because she's been here.

She has her first, but it doesn't appear in that collegiate uniform. And when we talk about the importance of branding school identity, seeing somebody in those logos and colors, I think it's interesting to see how it's gonna play out.

And so in that regard, when I put the lens on of just forget that you're losing so much of my Angieju Watkins right now, Caitlin, and look at it, it's a really strong sale because of the fact that it's not a first Bowman for sure.

I agree. Alright. Let's move on to the next couple. Alright. I think we're going to pick ups of the week, Brett, and I have more bad news, which is that I have not picked up a women's basketball card.

I tried. Guys, I am trying, but obviously, I'm low balling a lot of people and they're not liking it, so we'll see. Yeah. It's, there's there's been I'm in a standoff on a a few things, so nothing exciting for me.

But we'd sometimes we live through the vicarious pickups of other individuals, and those people are typically members of the collector spotlight.

So I think we got a new account here to highlight. That was an incredible transition. Give it up for Brad.

Okay. Let's go into the collector spotlight of the week. We're going with at mister madrid collects. This is a Seattle Storm collector that dabbles in other things like soccer and NBA, but we're gonna focus on WNBA cards today.

They have some really cool Storm green color matches that look great. They also collect some old school Storm or WNBA stuff, which I always think is exciting to see. And they're a frequent WNBA contributor. So we really appreciate that.

And if you guys aren't following this collector, it's definitely worth a follow to find, more WNBA collectors on Instagram. Just followed mister Madrid collects. Everyone go give mister Madrid collects a follow.

And I think we got a mailbag this week that's not just us asking each other. I think you're right, Brett. We've got five questions from you guys, from the listeners, from at WNBA card pod on Instagram.

So, Brett, are you ready to tackle these five questions? I'm ready. Let's do it. Alright. Let's let's start with the first, which, is from at dig in paper who had a really timely question here for the the theme of this episode.

Don Ross is first out. So So is this going to be considered age as Paige's true rookie, especially given that she has a Bowman first?

It feels like Don Ross is a rookie, but equally, for Bowman first given how much she accomplished at Yukon, that card should hold as much, if not more value.

Also love the pod. Keep it going. Brett, what do you think about this question? This is, like, such the perfect question. I This is the this is the question we're exploring this entire episode, and I think, yeah, it's I don't know.

I think the attention is going towards the Donerous card in which the Donerous card is sick. Like, it's a great rookie photo? Good photo.

But based on her accomplishments and based on the credibility and everything we just said around the Bowman product, I I don't think we should lose sight of of that product, especially seeing Paige's collegiate career be what it it was and ending in a national championship.

So I think they can coexist, and they both can be, cards that, collectors get really excited about. What do you think? I think I got a little bit harder roles in my collection, Brett.

I think that once this person entered the word rookie into the question, it automatically turned to Don Ross for me. I think that a rookie has to be in my personal collection, the rules could be different for other books.

For me, you have to be in a pro uniform, it has to be a fully licensed card, and it has to be a packed gold card, meaning it can't be, like, from Panini instant or something like that.

And so if we're talking about rookie cards, I believe the Don Russell will be the first, quote, unquote, Paige rookie card.

But to that end, I do think that the Bowman First has its place as the first prospect card, just not the first rookie card.

This is, I completely agree with your breakdown of it. And I what I'm interested in is how the first prospect card ends up sitting next to the first rookie card long term.

But great question. Time will tell. We'll be here to catch up when we see how that goes. Okay. Second question from comes from last week's collector of the week at Ram Jam Sports Cards.

Bauman Yu juju first year in an airbrushed uniform or Bauman Yu second year in a USC uniform? I've had this question in my mind so many times, and it was like, if I get one, what will it be? And I truly value the first label.

However, even in this instance where I can't stand USC as a Notre Dame fan, I think based on aesthetics and just beauty of the card, I feel like I gotta side with the follow-up, which is very, I'm very not used to that being the response, but I think I go USC card here.

What about you? For my personal taste, I agree with you, because of the fact that it just looks more like Juju and how I remember Juju.

And because that year of Bowman Chrome, her second year, is my favorite. To that end, I'll add a little caveat as I do with every question, which is that if I was buying to sell, I would not be buying the second year.

I'd be buying the first year. I think that's a that's a good clarifier there. Number three comes from at card collector.

Why do you think women's college cards tend to be valued more than men's? The easiest thing for me to respond to is the fact that these athletes stay at their school longer longer than the men do.

It just feels like the star men athletes, get out of town as soon as possible, and that feels very different than the way the women's college basketball works.

That was my answer with a little bit more detail on the incentive as to why the men go quicker, which is because the NBA has been seen as the final destination and was rewarded with investments, high salaries, high media attention, all the things that come in that should come with being a professional basketball player have existed for men for years, so they feel more incentivized to go pro earlier.

Whereas in the women's on the women's side, that's a recent exploration that they're working on. So I think that that's kind of a little bit more context as to why we see that and why that might translate into card prices.

Question number four, Brett, from arod. one. This is a fun one. This is a programming note, Brett. If I remember correctly, you guys mentioned something about bringing in guest speakers for future podcast episodes.

Oh, he did. Is that still the plan? Sure. Yeah. It's almost I wanna let listeners know that I love doing this show with Caitlin.

It's so much fun, but there's this show for me, and then there's, like, you know, 10 others. So it's like, sometimes I get very inspired by ideas and it sometimes it's it's it's harder to execute.

It's it's Caitlin and I have been doing these. Caitlin's been on the road. We are doing them super early in the morning. It's and then to throw another schedule in there is is challenging.

So I'll say, I'm not saying no, but it's hard to execute this based on people's timelines and schedules. Caitlin and I will regroup and try to figure out ways to get new voices on here.

But, yeah, this is one of those things we've said, and I've I'll give myself an f on execution. Well, I think I think too, we're only three seasons in, which sounds like a lot to me.

I'm very proud to make it three seasons in, but we're not planning on stopping anytime soon. So there's kind of this endless pipeline of ideas that we're going through, and we're trying to get through them all.

So, stay tuned. We'll let you guys know when and if that's happening, but appreciate you checking up on us on our accountability side.

It means a lot that you're paying attention to those little details that we throw out. Alright, Brad. We have our fifth and final question, and this comes from at m j s sports cards, our dear friend.

How about a little tribute to Iowa Dave's Failing Up series? Can each of you share a collecting mistake you made and the lesson it taught you?

And Brett, for some context, Iowa Dave, a fellow podcaster and amazing host of the Iowa Dave podcast, The Shallow End, had a short series, I think it was like 18 episodes, of short episodes interviewing collectors about mistakes that they made and how they grew from it.

So, just a little programming note for folks, if you wanna go listen to that, it's available on Spotify.

Dave is a close friend of both of us. He makes incredible content. So this is kind of a little tribute to that series he put together. Why don't you, lead us? Okay.

So I would say my mistake was similar to episode 10 of the Failing Up series with Tasty Card Sandwich, which I love that, user day where they talked about being hyper focused on a single lane or a single project and losing sight of the bigger picture.

And so for me, that really echoed for me because I I kind of create these little subprojects within my PC. And once they're there, you know, I define these initiatives. I want to finish them.

I don't want to abandon them, and very few have been completed. And because of that, it makes me kind of ignore the other spaces, whether that be new products, new fandom, new players that I discovered that I like.

I think the example that I'll give is, you know, I've been laser focused on this Nafisa Collier six pack, which I haven't been making progress on.

And all the while, I'm talking about how much I love Maya Moore, and I don't have any Maya Moore cards to show for it because I'm too damn focused on Nafisa Collier.

And so I think that my lesson learned from that mistake is that focusing too narrowly can make you miss opportunities, and more importantly, it can make you miss out on fun.

So I think it's just important to balance that kind of dedication and collection building also with curiosity and exploring. So I think my my next steps are gonna be letting myself kind of be a little bit more flexible in that regard.

For me, I would say there's constant failure happening in my collecting, and I feel like that's okay because you learn from the failure.

But, like, as rethinking about this question, for me, it's generally whenever I veer off the path of my North Star, which my North Star throughout all of my collecting lanes has to do with my teams in my city.

And whenever I veer off of that, it takes me a while and I realize what I'm doing.

And I say to this, like, these funds or these cards that could be funds are excites me way more is turning these into a card that contributes to that area of focus and in my collecting.

I think it's fine. I I like exploring, and it's hard to call, like, exploring failure.

But, ultimately, that's what it is for me. It's, like, when I have to remind myself, like, why I'm here and why I do what I do. And, typically, that call causes me to to reset.

But it's all part of the process, and I I think it's very rewarding when I have those moments where I I need clarity. Yeah. It feels good to take a little detour and then end up back on the main road.

I'll say that. That's always a fun experiment for sure. Well, thank you to our listeners for submitting from at WNBA card pod on Instagram, through the mailbag.

We're excited that we got to answer some of your burning questions, and we'll see you on the other side at the next episode. Thanks, everyone. A lot to think about, a lot to explore. I think the landscape is changing.

It is not the same as it used to be. A lot of different factors in there. Manufacturers changing hands, NIL, new collectors coming in. A lot to think about, but, hopefully, you're enjoying what we're doing here on the WNBA card podcast.

Follow us at WNBA card pod. Appreciate your support, your passion, everything you're doing to support collector driven, community focused content. We appreciate you. Take care. We'll be back. Talk to you soon.