Welcome back, loyal listeners of the Stacking Slab podcast to episode five of season two of the WNBA card podcast.

My name is Caitlin. I go by at cold lunch cards on Instagram and everywhere else on the Internet. And I'm joined by the man, the myth, the legend, Brett McGrath at stacking slabs, my cohost.

And we're excited to deliver some more collector driven and community focused WNBA card content to you guys this week. Brett, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling, okay. I'm, coming off the hills of just coming being back in the saddle after the national and trying to get my life organized. And I'm a man of routine, so I'm trying to get back into the routine.

I will be fine on the other side of this. I'm just, like, in that early stage of, like, responsibilities, things going wrong around the house, and trying to manage it. But I told you, this is where I like to be.

I like to be in front of a microphone talking about sports cards and specifically WNBA cards. So this is gonna be the elixir, Caitlin. I'm telling you. I'm gonna feel like back to normal after we get done recording this.

How are you doing? I'm feeling good. I'm also, like, in the same boat where I'm feeling really excited, post national about the state of the hobby, specifically the WNBA segment.

But at the same time, I'm exhausted. I calculated just before the episode, the number of steps that I took and converted into miles based on my height, and it was about 20 miles of walking at the national.

And I'm feeling it. Not that I don't go on walks often, I do with my dog, but that was just a whole another level, especially just walking the same, building over and over again.

So I'm tired, but I'm feeling, recharged, I suppose, about about the hobby post national.

Me too. I will be the one that will say this, and a lot of people will say this. And then people who didn't go will be like, oh, he's just saying this.

But I've been to several, national shows, and this this one was certainly, my favorite. I think it was just the energy the energy of the people, the businesses, all the conversations, all the ground covered.

Just I I felt like a high driving home, and, I feel like that high I'm like, maybe I'm going through withdrawals right now. And that's what this is.

I'm not sure what you do. I I agree. I was even saying to my coworkers, I was like, wow. How do I move my brain away from cards when I'm talking to you guys? Because every conversation, I wanna be like, guess what I picked up?

Guess who I talked to? But we're getting back to everyday life. So I suppose before we get into more conversation about the national, because that's gonna be a main factor of today's conversation, why don't we plug our sponsor quick?

We wanna shout out Great Lakes Trading Cards Co in Saint Paul, Minnesota, our local LCS sponsor for season two. Each week, I'm going to try to highlight something going on at the shop.

And last week, we talked about their half off value, bargain boxes. And this week, I wanna just talk about a similar concept, which is that they have a case on their wall behind the counter.

And every day, any card in there is also half off, which I think is a good deal. So it's not just dollar bin cards or $5 cards.

There can be $50 cards in there. Walk in and say that's your PC player. They might be half off. So go take a gander if you're local to Minnesota or visiting at Great Lakes Trading Cards Co off Randolph Ave in Saint Paul.

Alright. So should we get into it, Brett? Let's do it. I have a topic that I was thinking about at the national that I I wanted to present, and it's, this idea of first generation WNBA p PC builders.

And this and it's this is gonna be very complicated, and I'm probably not gonna be, like, very clear.

And this is the best part about having a podcast is you can, like, talk through some of these things with, your cohost. But this really came to me as I was thinking about the current state of the WNBA, community and card market.

And, I wanna be clear and say, I'm not necessarily referring to the individuals who predate us who have been collecting cards in this space forever.

I'm more, thinking about, and these people can be a part of this conversation certainly, but I'm thinking about, like, in this moment, in this era of WNBA collecting, the individuals who are invested, who are passionate, who, Caitlin, you, I'm sure, had many interactions with the National.

Like, what are these individuals doing in this moment, whether it's organizing their collections, how they're communicating with others, sets they're going after, things they value.

Like, what are these ingredients that these individuals have that might cause a long tail impact down the road?

The catalyst for this really is, like, my own thinking around the hobby segments, collecting pockets. And, you know, one easy one to think about is just, like, nineties basketball cards, for instance.

Like, nineties basketball cards came out decades ago. But there have been people that have been collecting nineties basketball cards since the nineties.

And the this this this, those individuals really have benefited from kind of the prices, from just the rarity and scarcity because they've been in it from the beginning, and they've built that foundation.

And it's not exclusive to the nineties.

Like, this happens in every era. But I feel like we're at this point right now, especially coming off the national, and I'm sure you have an additional additional thoughts regarding, like, what you saw at the national.

But just feels like this is a good moment in time to, like, pause and start recognizing things we're seeing.

And since we have a podcast about WNBA cards, I think it's advantageous of of us for our audience and for ourself to begin to maybe share some of those things.

So that's where that's where I wanna start from. I guess before we get into it, do you wanna react, or do you have any feedback, as we dive in?

I'm really excited about this topic. It's something that I wanted to talk about and I've been thinking about, but I didn't necessarily have the term to lay the foundation.

So the idea of a first gen collector is exciting to explore, and I'm excited to break it down with you, Brett.

I think this will be a fun conversation where hopefully we'll we'll learn from each other on what we think that really means and maybe how we can become first gen collectors ourselves.

Yeah. So the, again, I'm gonna this is gonna be mushy. There's gonna be a lot of gray area. We're gonna figure this out in real time and just have a conversation about it.

So, really, I don't think this would be possible without The National where I think I certainly had more conversations about WNBA collecting in person in a three and a half day stretch than I've ever had in my entire life.

There's been there's a lot of questions. There was a lot of individuals walking around the show floor in WNBA gear.

Like, hi. Caitlin and I were talking at the card ladder booth. I can't even all my days are mixed, but I like I like totally interrupted Caitlin. She was talking to somebody, and I said, hey.

Look. And I pointed and someone was walking by in a Lynx jersey. It's like, I'm not sure that would have really happened, two, three years ago, but, the WNBA apparel and people looking for their cards at shows was at an all time high.

And I'm just like, if this is the beginning of something bigger, then who are the individuals that are in it and what are they doing? And so, Caitlin, I know you, you had several events.

Like, I saw I've see saw pictures of you on floor trading WNBA cards with individuals. You were at dinners having conversations. Maybe we can start there. Like, those are cool moments.

We didn't necessarily get to talk about those moments on the last pod because I think they happened afterwards. But maybe, aligned with this topic, like, maybe talk about kind of those experiences and maybe what you learned from those.

Yeah. Well, shout out to the listeners. We posted a WMBA card pod if anybody wanted to be included in a national group chat on Instagram, and we got about 25 or 30 folks in that group chat that we're all gonna be attending in Chicago.

And that was the catalyst for a lot of those conversations, deals, dinners, meetups, etcetera.

But I also had conversations and deals and meetups and all those things, organically or offline where I just ran into somebody on the show floor or walking around, and then began to strike up a conversation about the WNBA.

And let me just say this this was my third national.

The first national I went to was in Chicago, and I went for one singular day, which I would never do again because I need more time than that. And then I went to Cleveland last year, and then finally, Chicago again this year.

And this year, it really felt different for me personally as a collector. It felt like the first time that WNBA collecting was really at the center of the purpose of me attending the national.

I found myself wanting to talk about and find WNBA cards more than other segments, which is, not what I did in the past.

And and kinda like you said, I had more conversations in that five day span about WNBA cards than ever before, and it wasn't necessarily with people that were already collecting WNBA cards.

A lot of those conversations also came from people that were just curious.

And from every conversation that I had, I somehow brought up WNBA card collecting. And it wasn't necessarily forced. It was just a topic that I felt so passionate about or people like, what cards are you selling?

What cards are you buying? And then the WNBA always came up, and I felt like the reception to that was very positive. And we can get into more of those experiences that I had.

But, yeah, it was just an awesome national, and it was exciting to meet up with folks that are kind of in this first gen, collector framework, but also people that are just now joining or maybe after the national and seeing the insurgence of WNBA cards are feeling motivated to start to to explore that category.

I don't want all of this to be about values and price, but, certainly, values and price are influential when we're talking about forming markets and forming communities around specific areas.

And so when I think about first generation, I think back to the research phase that I went through when I was first getting back into the hobby.

And let me tell you, I spent way too much time digging through the bowels of blowout forums, like diving back, like, I think the furthest back I could go at the time was, like, 02/2009, 02/2010.

And so to read the discussions in that time frame, 02/2010, but pre, like, technology boom, platforms like card ladder, marketplaces galore, vaults galore. All of that stuff was, like, super intriguing.

And so, like, I think a lot of this, like, I I wanna make this clear. Like, I am not trying to say, like, WNBA collecting is going to be like any of these examples that I share, but I'm just trying to draw a parallel.

And one of the discussions I'll never forget on Blowout was around, precious metal gems. And the the the prices for reds and greens and who's seen what. And, you know, this is before they're prevalent everywhere or can be seen.

And I look back on, like, the value I remember, like, looking back on the values that, like, some people associated those cards with and then going to card ladder and cross checking, and it was just like, wow.

I wish I would have been here in this discussion and had money in 2009 because I would probably be retired at this point.

It was just funny and fascinating and interesting. And I think about, like, if you were the first in, like, the soccer card community, like, same would be true.

And so I think, like, the the the interesting part is we the the hobby and the the markets as they go, it's always people chasing.

You can see, like, rookie royalty right now. It's like people chasing. And these people haven't been here, but it's flashy. And then they go chase the stuff, and that elevates prices, and then prices, end up going down.

However, like, there's individuals that are, like, deeply passionate where they, like, block out the price. And they're like, I don't care about the price.

Like, this is my hobby. This is what I watch. This is what I collect. And those are the individuals who are consistently buying because they're passionate, end up buying the right stuff, and they hold it for a long time.

And those, prices end up going up. So that's why I think, like, this moment really matters for the WNBA community and collector.

And I think these collectors who are doing that out of passion are the ones that are setting the precedent for how the space will be defined, kind of what matters now, what matters down the road, and what will I guess, and this is a word that I don't know why I'm using it, but there there is going to be cards from this this era right now that are going to be considered iconic in Yeah.

Five to ten years. And I don't think it's fair to say this card is iconic now or that card's iconic now, but I just, like, want listeners to, like, get in that headspace, and that's where we're gonna be coming from as we dig into this.

So that's why I think this moment matters, and I've got some questions to explore with you, Caitlin. But I don't know. Any thoughts or reaction based on that?

I think the point about iconic cards is really important, to just, like, ground ourselves and remember that the WNBA started in the late nineties, and we're only twenty five years in oh, twenty five, thirty years in.

And if we look at other sports, the WNBA is growing rapidly and faster than those sports that we look back on, relative.

So I'm excited about that part. And when we look back, you know, we're at the relatively early stages of the league and of the cards that are available to us.

So that's something that, when we talk about first gen collectors, I I just wanna remember that point that we're we're early on still now. Even if you're just joining us now in WNBA card collecting, we're only a quarter of a century in.

Good call out. So let's let's dig into this. So what based on your observations, and at the this is why I wanna talk about it because, like, we are all just in person having a lot of these conversations.

Based on your observations, Caitlin, what are collectors that you're observing or that you spoke to? What are what are they doing now that you believe will help influence future collectors, how future collectors behave?

I think that these first gen collectors, the big word that I keep coming back to is frameworks because they're the people that are leading the charge of determining, by their purchasing habits or by, the conversations that they're having with other collectors.

They're determining what's going to have value in the market, because they're the ones that want to collect them.

And I think that based on conversations, especially those that I had at the national and leading up to the national, I found that, this this kind of shows itself in preference of sets and players and parallels and all the things that come along with cards.

And I it's interesting.

One one set that I wanna kinda talk about, as part of this is one that we explored in season one, which was 2019 Don Ross, the dawn of the Panini era, the transition from what you could kind of classify as modern to ultra modern w WNBA cards.

It seems as though these first gen collectors are very attached to it. And it's not just because it was the first product, though that's a major component. It's about how limited the print run was and how, beautiful the cards look.

It's it's both the rarity scarcity and the aesthetics of it. And the conversations that I was having, you know, you you and I are both Prism simps. So I was expecting more folks to be on the 2020 Prism train, and they are.

They're they they let me just be clear. These are two premier sets in WNBA collecting. But 2019 Donruss is really something I didn't realize these first gen collectors are being drawn to and really investing in.

And it's people of all ages and all backgrounds that are are into this. It could be people that have been there for, twenty years since the start of the league or people that just got in now and are looking back at the history.

That 2019 set is really sticky. And I was very interested, to hear that. And and it's it's rubbing off on me when we talk about this idea of influence.

I'm like, god. Those 2019 gold optics, you don't see them every day. And and it's just so interesting based on so many conversations to keep hearing, 2019 Donner's and 2020 Prizm just continue to be brought up over and over again.

But those are just the Panini era. Another thing that first gen collectors I heard them talking about was pre Panini era and these Rittenhouse, very condition sensitive cards.

It seems like similar to how NBA basketball nineties collectors are very into the grade now, that WNBA collectors are drawing a similar similar parallel with Rittenhouse cards, specifically the rookies in high grades, and those are appreciating at a, faster pace than than the lower grades.

I didn't have a conversation with you about this, but when we parted ways, I, it was on Saturday.

I did some, exploring, and I did what you shouldn't do. I went to, Steel City. I went to Dave and Adams. I went to blow out. I was like, you know what?

I wanna look for some boxes. And I was looking for 2019 Donerous WNBA. It's funny you brought it up because I wanted to buy a box because I've never opened that, and I couldn't find one. And I think it's just funny.

It's like you we've been in conversations with collectors who, when that product dropped, were buying cases of it at the national, and now you can't find it anywhere. So, that makes sense, and it's it's kinda passing my sniff test.

One of the questions kinda counter that I wanna throw back at you is anybody who is has a badass WNBA collection Mhmm. Rittenhouse 2019 Donner's 2020 Prism, like, all revered in at some level within, those that collector base.

What did you hear from the community at the show around rookie royalty? Was this a product that anybody would in in that segment of hardcore collector was interested or chasing?

I would love to to learn that if you heard any feedback. Yeah. I heard lots of feedback. And let me just, like, frame this conversation by saying, you know, not everybody's at the national.

So if I didn't hear your opinion, that doesn't mean it's not valid and doesn't exist. I just wanna say that upfront. This is just a small, sample of collectors that I talked to.

But of the collectors, w m people that I would classify as WNBA collectors, meaning that they're building a collection intentionally around WNBA cards, the common sentiment was that rookie royalty is a beautiful set and that the cards, if you just look at them objectively, they're pretty nice cards, and they would be what we would consider high end, very desirable cards in any other segment.

But people were really disappointed at the method at which they were released, and that spoiled it for them as collectors because it didn't feel authentic from the manufacturer.

It felt as though they were being taken advantage of for the moment because prices were rising, so we had to pump out the best possible product we could, but maybe not with the same approach that, collectors would appreciate.

So, while cards still seem to be desirable, like, some people are like, wow. I would just love a kaboom of my favorite rookie.

That that's completely valid, and they want them. But they feel priced out by people that are now entering the WNBA space, whether that be, breakers or, you know, folks that are running streams.

Those kind of, audiences are driving prices up. So even if they did want to collect them, I think there is some disappointment from WNBA collectors that, they're feeling priced out of their own market. This is phenomenal.

And this is really good feedback where I think, like, this doesn't get part brought up in conversation, but I think, especially first gen collectors, like, you really have to look at and I'm not saying, like, because first gen collectors have that sentiment, because you heard it, Caitlin, that these cards aren't going to be, valued strong and desirable down the road.

I'm not jumping to those conclusions, but I think what I do wanna point out is the fact that things like configuration, distribution, those things really matter.

Like, I don't know anyone who, like, had a box for themselves and opened it up.

It seemed like all of these boxes were getting ripped via breaks, and they were going for high dollar value, where then I go rewind back to all the conversation about 2019, Don Russ.

And you, you know, collectors loved it because it was cheap and no one wanted it. And they were able to sit there and open up cases of it and try to search for the gold vinyl. And, like, the the first gen isn't going to leave.

They'll be here. And I just think, like, I wanted I wanted to, like, highlight that point. Like, the way that the people that are holding cards think about the way cards are released now.

Even the small stuff, like, configuration and parallel structure, like, that really matters. And so I think having an ear to the ground and listening to some of that sentiment in real time is is is really valuable.

And, like, you don't have to take everything you hear and say, this is the way it's gonna be, but just to recognize that I think is important.

Absolutely. It's it's a very interesting and and there were outliers to that that, explanation that I gave of what I was hearing too.

There were people that were really excited and were looking for downtowns and kabooms and, noir and all these different sets.

But I think that the the sentiment that kind of echoed, within at least the circles that I was running in was that why didn't we just get one product called flawless WNBA and put the whole league in it and call it good?

And and instead of taking all the money that you invested into all these different products and the rookies, how about you just put it in game used materials in a flawless product and call it good?

So it's interesting to see how different people react, and and I'm really excited to see how it plays out in the market.

So we'll we'll be keeping an eye on it on the podcast on sales because it it doesn't I mean, they're still setting record high prices today, especially Caitlin Clark and Angel Reece cars. They seem to just be exploding.

We'll we'll talk about a couple of those in a minute. And I'm gonna just we we we talked about a a bunch of stuff already, so I'm just gonna jump ahead to kind of the the definition of first gen WNBA builder.

And what I wanna dig into is, you know, the way I think about this, Caitlin, is the individuals who are waiting for, details about new products, checklists, who are deep in the weeds, who are connecting with one to one with members of the community, have safe searches coming up, all of those things.

And so I I'm curious, like, how do you spot maybe the a first gen collector versus someone who is showing up to hop on a trend, and they're going to leave once that trend is over?

I think the easiest way to spot somebody is if is is value the main thing that you're putting at the forefront of your collecting?

And value meaning monetary value. And monetary value, you know, as an econ major, we could go into a lot of details here, but I'm not going to but the idea of monetary value is that it's it's external. It's coming from your peers.

It's coming from the market. It's set by people other than yourselves. And I think that if that's how you're operating, that's fine. That's I'm not gonna tell you how to collect. You can collect however you want.

But for first gen collectors, it feels like they're the ones that are making those decisions. And in value doesn't come monetarily. It comes sentimentally or it comes in a future in the future value of the card.

And that and that comes with conviction and passion and all these words we like to throw out. I think those are the things that I associate with a first gen collector.

And a first gen collector isn't, isn't going to be rushing into those values or, forcing, buys or purchases. They're patient. They're they're waiting. They're evaluating.

Just so many different words that I can throw out here, but I think the main thing that that really permeates what what separates a first gen collector from somebody that's maybe just looking to make a quick flip or following a trend is somebody that's really just following their gut, and and they're they're passionate about the card that they're collecting.

And if it goes down in value, they're they're okay with that because it means more to them than it means to somebody else. I think these are excellent callouts. I wanna move into maybe community.

And first gen, collectors certainly value community and, shout out everyone who's helping make this podcast feel like a community. Just you your example of the group chat and everything else, I think that's amazing.

And I think one thing in this era that I have learned is, like, the best cards don't always or the cards that are most desirable of Reframe It are aren't necessarily listed in marketplaces, but they come from other, individuals' collections.

Caitlin, I don't know what you're you wanna share or don't wanna share, but I know you made some trades and deals on the floor.

And that activity, I think, is, like, really important and really powerful where you can just sit in face to face with someone who is a fan of the same category you are and, like, you negotiate and work out a deal.

So, yeah, I just think first gen collectors, you know, value community.

I guess I'll give you some spaces. Is there anything you wanna share just in your deal making through Yeah. Kinda collecting, with other connecting with other collectors?

Absolutely. There were there are a lot of pickups that I made, and some of them are no longer with me. I I moved on from them quicker than I anticipated at the national to help, move into different cards.

But let me just say this. I I picked up three major PC editions for my WNBA card collection, and two of the three came from people that I already knew.

And the the last one was one that I just saw in a showcase, and now I know this person, and we've connected online post show.

So it it's so interesting how, you know, even if you know somebody, you might not know what they're hiding in their collection, and that was a big a big theme that came through at the National.

I was sitting in in John Brogi's booth, which was an awesome talk talk about community.

Can we just take a moment? Let's just take a moment to appreciate what John and Anne Marie at Women on Tops put together at the national in all WNBA well, 99.

9% WNBA card booth that was welcoming, inclusive, open to everybody. If you look were looking for a WNBA player, there was something there for you.

Let's just, like, say that first. But, while I was at that booth, I got introduced to a lot of different folks, and, you know, people were like, you wanna look at my cards?

And I I opened up one of the boxes of of a recently graded PSA submission, and staring at me was a Marine Johannes one of one gold vinyl. And I'm like, woah, Ty.

Why didn't you tell me you had this? And she was like, I honestly, like, just didn't know that that was your thing. Like, you know, let me know. And I was like, I'll do I I gotta figure out a way to get this in my collection.

So that that was just a point of community. We ended up getting a deal done, which which a deal done through another card that I did with a collector, a listener of the pod at MJS spark sports cards.

Mark had sold me a card, which then helped fund, that Marine Johannes that I picked up.

But the point being and why I mentioned this this is that that physical space that was created by a first gen collector led to a lot of deals that wouldn't have otherwise happened.

And they and they might not have even known that I was collecting a certain player, and now they do.

So community my whole point here is that community is super important, and it feels like in the WNBA space, the idea of trust in community is more important, than than any other segment than that I've been a part of.

Shout out, Mark. I was heading off to, a very, very long run that I did with a group of collectors, and Mark was going off on his run.

And I spotted him from a mile away because he was wearing I believe he had a fee. It was early, but I believe he had a fee shirt on.

I was like, I think I know who and we stopped and shared pleasantries, for a minute. I wanna maybe dig into the, like, the relationships and Yeah. How do you think relationships are driving the WNBA card community forward?

I think it's the the focal point, and it should be. I I think that, you know, we talk about value coming externally, monetarily, but value also comes externally from friendships and relationships that you make.

And those open the doors to more deals, which are ultimately what we're there for the cards.

But but the people is what makes it really fun and memorable. And so I I had a great national, and while I picked up a bunch of cards, the people that got me those cards, I am even more grateful for.

They they could have not given me any cards or not done any deals with me, and I still would have walked away feeling excited and motivated about this segment of the hobby because it feels like WNBA collectors are just looking out for each other.

And and let me just give a a shout out to a concept that I I just now learned about at the national from Anne Marie, at Women on Tops who's doing great things for the WNBA and women's sports collecting in in general.

This idea of malicious gratitude is something that she introduced me to, which is that, you know, it might not be the most valuable card, but, something that you know somebody's looking for, and gifting that to them.

And and watching that in real time, Brett, was so cool to watch somebody get a a dream PC grail into their collection just because just because.

There was no reason. It was just because, you know, we're friends and and we've got connections with folks and we wanna show our appreciation for them.

I've never seen anything like it with like, what I saw at John and Anne Marie's booth of this idea of malicious gratitude among WNBA collectors.

It was just it was awesome. That's amazing. I, malicious and gratitude don't seem like they should Exactly.

But they do it. A little bit of an oxymoron. I love it. I think this was good. And I think this is a thread that we can continue to pull on as we have this show, but I think it was important.

I what I wanted the really, the reason why I wanted to do is just, like, if you're listening to this show, like, you're a first gen collector, and I wanna just pause everyone for a minute.

Craziness is happening and just, like, get everyone to recognize, like, this unique moment in time. And I think I don't know. Like, I put proposed this question just like and maybe I'll just share it out, and we don't need to answer.

We can move on. But it's just like, if someone looked at your collection ten years ago or in ten years, would they be able to tell you they were part of this first generation?

And I think that's something that I'm thinking a lot about. But I will just say this. I wanna just thank everyone who's a listener of this pod and who I interacted with at the national.

You know, I've learned so much about product from people who've been doing this long before me, and I just think, it's a good note to end on before we kinda move to the next segue.

Yeah. Ditto, Brett. Let's let's move on to the data deep dive today.

Okay. We do the data. We do the card ladder. Hey. I I've I've been doing it a lot on all my shows because I feel like I can't do it enough, but you're where you're rocking the card ladder gear.

What what could do you do you what what nice things do you wanna say about our friends at card ladder? Oh, I have so many nice things to say. First of all, thank you for the sweatshirt. I love it. I'm gonna be repping it on the pod.

But let me just say that that booth that they set up, not only was it, I know you've equated it to feeling like an Apple store. Not only was it just, like, beautifully set up, it was such an awesome space.

I felt like I it was kind of my home base of the national. Not only was it a little bit quieter, and I could feel like I could decompress a little bit, but the people that were there were awesome.

All these accounts that I see specifically on cool cards, I saw a ton of people there, and It was just awesome to be able to tell them face to face how much I appreciate their collection, even if it's not something that I collect, and Card Ladder was the the facilitator of those conversations.

So shout out to them and shout out to Christina, for the all the stickers and the gear and the setup.

She did a great job. No doubt about it. Alright. This is the topic at hand. What I wanted to do using card ladder was look at the data from the week of the national last year comparatively to the week of the national this year.

WNBA sales, $500 or more, and compare and contrast, and just see where we were at last time.

This is where we're at this year. Obviously, we spent the week looking at all the in person deals card cards happening, but, obviously, there was sales happening while we while online, naturally.

So this is what we're gonna dig into. So from 07/28/2025 to 08/03/2025, in sales $500 or more according to card ladder, WNBA related, there was 229 sales that happened, which is an awful lot.

We'll kick it off. We talk about rookie royalty. Mhmm. The highest selling card during that time frame, which I I I mean, there I will look I'm looking at this card, and it's a 2024 rookie royalty Caitlin Clark kaboom.

The they whether you like kaboom or not, I'm not a kaboom collector, but this, like, shot of Clark in this moment, it like, when you see it and you're watching her as a fan, like, that's what you want.

That just means she, like, threw the ball all the way across the court or just drilled a, a logo woman three. Very awesome card. But this thing this thing sold for 17 k.

And I looked at the pop report. It's already a pop 22, which is ironic because Caitlin Clark wears from number 22. So I'm guessing it won't be pop 22 for long. It'll continue to elevate. But, yeah, that card sold for 17 k this week.

Any reactions to that, Caitlin? Crazy. First of all, I wonder if the person who bought this was on the floor of the National and bought it while they were there or if this is somebody that wasn't at the National.

And I would be, you know you know how you can put in in person sales on card ladder? You can submit them. I would wonder I bet more than one of these transacted on the floor at the National.

I would love to see, those sales and how they compare to this online 17 k. So No doubt. Another big sale was the Angel Reese kaboom gold. Again, another great photo that I mean, the Objectively.

Like Objectively, like, that's when I'm when I think about Angel Reese making a play, this is what, like, this is what comes to my mind. Just like this aggressive celebration, like, very passionate.

There's 10 copies of this card. This thing sold via auction on eBay. The Clark sale was eBay too. This sold for $9,000. For me, it's like, okay. At least there's some there's only 10 of these, so it makes it maybe more easier to digest.

But what's your reaction to the sale? $9,000 is a lot of money. And I just find it amazing to see which ones are setting setting these comps in, especially as the national was in Chicago.

I I always just wonder, are these cards going to the fans of the teams? I don't I don't really care if they do or not, but I wonder about it. And I wonder, was this person in Chicago when they won it?

That keeps being the the question of the week of the national sales is how many people are in the national and buying online versus those that are not at the national and buying online.

No doubt. The final card that I wanna feature here is Oh. The Sabrina gold vinyl at a 22 b g s $9.

05 1 of one sold this last week, and it sold for 5,500 via best offer on eBay. This was on my watch list forever. I think it was listed at 10 k, and this thing sold. Someone bought it, and I'm just gonna, spoil an alert to everyone.

Like, you you compare the Clark and the resale with this sale, and I'm like, this person got a freaking deal on this card, which this is the fun part about being a first gen collector.

You can see the madness happening at the top end and be like, well, if that's happening over here, I can go bargain bin shopping.

And how crazy is it? We're bargain bin shopping for one of the best players in the NBA's one of her best cards, which is nuts.

Yeah. This is a cool card. I have nothing else to say since it's Sabrina, but nice card, Sabrina. I expect her sales to keep going up.

She she just seems to be She's one of those players that, like, besides this new rookie class, it seems like folks that are entering that are fresh to the WNBA market, they are very aware of her sales and her market, and she's definitely a draw.

No doubt about it. Alright. So we're moving and remember, I'll I'll repeat it.

We went from this year at the national, 229 sales, $500 or more in the WNBA card category. Now let's rewind the tape to 2024. Alright, Caitlin. There were 11 sales during that same time period last year. 11.

And the highest selling card during that time period was the 2022 Bowman Chrome U, Caitlin Clark refractor auto at a four ninety nine PSA 10 for $2,699. This is a 181% difference in volume of sales and a 145% difference in highest sale.

I don't care if you're a casual. I don't care if you're a hardcore. To see from one national to the other online sales, $500 or more volume and high sale perspective, it it says there's something going on here.

Absolutely. Couldn't couldn't agree more. It's it's very interesting. I know we were gonna talk about toggling between the idea of increased inventory versus increased demand and interest.

And and I kinda wanna get into that a little bit, but it really seems undeniable that there's more people that are buying these cards and that, people are more interested now than than ever before, including last year when I think if we would have recorded this episode last year at the National, we would have been saying similar things of, wow.

This is awesome. Sales are growing. More people are interested. Caitlin Clark cards are setting the market on fire, and now it seems like what we couldn't imagine last year is happening this year.

Yes. No doubt. Let's get in. I'd love to hear your thoughts of how much of the surge you think can be tied to increased inventory that's available versus increased demand.

Yeah. I think it's I think, clearly, there's more cards available, and and better products available of these of these players, these premier players, that's going to lead to higher volume of sales at higher prices.

However, I think it's gonna be I in my opinion, it's more attributed to increased demand and attention.

I was talking to WNBA collectors all during the national, like I said, and a common sentiment that I felt was was we are not in the same market that we were in six months ago.

We're not in the same market that we were in eight months ago, and we're certainly not in the same market we were in a year ago.

And I think that's so true, and I think that's because, more people are diving into the WNBA, whether that be watching or collecting cards or, quote, unquote, investing and flipping.

It really feels like there's more eyes than ever before, and people are collecting with more conviction, because of the comps that are being set in card ladder, it's proof to collectors that the value is going up, and I think it it really empowers them with more confidence to buy at those higher prices.

This brings me to the next question here is, do you think we're entering a new tier of WNBA liquidity for these bigger cards or the grails?

Absolutely. It's it's kind of the same thread that I was pulling on before, which is that, like, with more people entering, you get more confidence.

And I think that those grails are becoming more desired by more people. We talked about the idea of grails being universal, and that kind of concept on a previous episode.

And I think more people are considering considering, the fact that, you know, WNBA grails exist, and they're becoming more and more in demand. And, I definitely see saw that at the national with cases that had WNBA cards.

There were definitely more of them and and a higher price points on those stickers than than ever before. So, yes, I do think that we're entering a new tier of WNBA liquidity for Grails.

So I this is one point that I wanna make sure is clear, and you've done a good job of calling this out, Caitlin, is obviously, like, grail is a term that's maybe personal. Like, it's a personal grail, what it means to you.

But I think, inevitably, there's always going to be a market in any category that's going to pick and choose what they think the best cards are. It's just natural part of, like, markets forming. Mhmm.

And I think what's really cool, and I think what excites me the most about this space is the fact that I can, as a WNBA collector right now, identify grails that are personal to me that I don't believe would cost me tens of thousands of dollars because it's so early, and peep first gen collectors are kind of forming around what they like or what they don't like.

And to me knowing, like, part of the reason why I don't collect nineties basketball or football cards is it's it's it's the the price point of those cards in relation to to my willingness to pay.

There it's just there's too big of a gap.

But that gap in the WNBA is about as tight as it can be. So I feel very excited to spend my money in this category because it feels like I can love something, and I can also get a ton of value for it.

Now tracking it down is is a whole another story. I think that's what's really special about this moment in time. I couldn't agree more. I don't even wanna add anything to that.

I I agree with you 100%, Brett. Alright. Let's move over to collector spotlight. Yes. My one of my favorite segments that we do every week, I'm excited, to spotlight at w sports collector on Instagram.

This is Jenny. She's a Seattle Storm fan. She has an amazing WNBA NCAA women's basketball basketball collection with some other W sports in there as well, like soccer, and has a deep and wide range of very impressive cards.

And let me just say I was lucky enough to have met Jenny at the national.

She's a gem. We actually got a trade done as well, but just an amazing collector. And if you guys are on Instagram, be sure be sure to go, check her out. Awesome, Paige. I'm not logged in online, and I just got booted out.

But everyone definitely follow her. I'm glad we are featuring members of the community. Absolutely. Well, should we should we get into, pickups of the week? We haven't done one of these in a while.

And I know that Brett and I both made some splashes, the past week or so on a couple cards. So Brett, why don't why don't you go first and I'll go second? I can do that. And I it's fun. It's I appreciate the eBay authenticity of it all.

I know collectors don't like to wait, but the benefit of it is, you know, obviously making sure, like, cards get to collectors. And there is, like, a a sicko in me that the delay sometimes you, like, forget what you bought.

I went on vacation and then went to the national and, like, realized all of these, like, whether it was something being graded or eBay authentication, all these packages were coming.

Thank god I had my mail held. It all came yesterday, and one of the cards in that, mail was, you know, me and my, like, 24 black finite simp nature of me.

I just these cards are, like, mesmerizing, but I got a Britney Sykes, the Britney Sykes black finite. I will also say I I bought this card long before she was able to master the, all star dance routine.

But she she is a player I love to watch. I love to watch, her tenacity, her ability to score the ball, and, you know, my feelings, my league past team, the mystic.

So, this card popped up, and I was like, once what it was it was a classic, like, when you see it, you know it. And I was like, this aligns with everything. And this is my first, Britney Sykes card.

And I'll also say, like, part of the reason why I love collecting w is because I I don't have to, like, get a million cards of each of these players, but just, like, this is this could be my only Britney Sykes card, and I'm totally content with it.

Yeah. Let me just say I love this card. I love the I'm gonna call it a triple color match, if I may. It's got the black, obviously, finite technology, the Washington Mystics black jerseys. And is am I seeing this correctly, Brett?

Is that the black commissioner's cup ball is the ball? It is. I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out. Well, now it's gone up 500%. Congrats. This is a this is a true eBay one of one one of one, triple color match.

Congrats, Brett. This is this is beautiful. Now now the next thing I need to do is post it to my story and just say available. Not oh, but she's got a black headband on too. Okay. Wow.

Quad. Quad. What what do you what what do you wanna talk about? Yeah. Let's talk about I'm I mentioned, I made three big and in my in my personal collection, three big purchases, and this one was the first one to kick off the national.

I similar to you, Brett, I get my days mixed up. So if I got this wrong, guys, I apologize. But I think it was Thursday night. I would and if it wasn't, just believe me. It was Thursday night.

We were sitting at the Hyatt Regency, me and a couple WNBA collectors, And my buddy Isaac, who I have been bothering in his Instagram DMs now for what feels like months about a certain card walked up to me with it.

And I I talked about this in the in the last pod, but I do wanna spotlight it and show it because it was only audio on on that, recording.

I picked up the AJ Wilson first year Origins black one of one. So I was super excited about that. And I'm just I accidentally Caitlin, I accidentally clicked out of the window.

So I Oh, yeah. Well, you guys are just gonna have to imagine it. It's it's sitting in in my collection right now, so I can't get it out. But I was just so stoked about this one. And, shout out to WNBA collectors that were sitting there.

Mark was sitting there. Carter at MC Basketball PC was sitting next to me, and they were really encourage encouraging me to pull the trigger. So I'm just super excited about this.

I know I talked about it last time, but that's how much it means to me. And I think, for me, the first year origins of it all means a lot, and I think that's another product that is kind of flying under the radar right now.

I I I had never really paid much attention to origins, and seeing this card in hand was, certainly cool. Awesome pickup.

Congrats. Thanks, Brett. Alright. Should we close out today's podcast with the infamous mailbag? Let's do it. Okay. We have a lot of I have not dug into it yet. So I this is how I like it, though. I like just being on my toes.

Okay. Well, we have a lot of questions to get to. We'll try to get to as many as we can. So thank you guys for submitting, but let's just, start out with a a kind of one set I'm gonna I'm gonna frame this collection.

This question came from at socoolie cards. Just frame it as this, Brett. What was what was the presence at the the WNBA presence at the national like?

And I'll add my framing, which is just give me one sentence to describe the WNBA presence at the national. Noticeable. Oh, I like that. Okay. I would say impressive would be my my word.

Okay. Number two. This is interesting, and we talked about, John's booth at the national, but from at S Holly 2 hun 02/2003, is it better to have a women's sport only booth or showcase or all players and sports together at the national?

And I'd like your opinion as somebody that didn't quite get to see, didn't get the opportunity to walk around as much.

Did you find it helpful that there was kind of this one singular booth that was the mecca of women's sports cards so that you felt that you could just go there and feel at least that you looked at something?

Or do do you think that more, diverse showcases were were better?

I think all in one, like, one setup, one showcase, to me is better. It's just easier to navigate, easier to have conversations, building community. It there's nothing wrong with, like, having some WNBA cards mixed in with other cards.

And I guess your thought is, well, maybe someone will see it and be interested. Yeah. I think that could happen. But I think I'm thinking more, like, at a show.

Like, you're probably if you're looking for WNBA cards or you're probably hunting for them and just having spaces where you can go and find showcases and have conversation is is probably more advantageous.

I agree. I think there's pros and cons to each. And let me just say, two of my deals were done at a WNBA only booth, and one of my deals was done at one of those more diverse showcases.

And, both were great conversations, and both had true first gen WNBA collectors at them. So I think there's different approaches in both of them both of them worked.

I think both of them found success at the national. Okay. Number three from at m c basketball pc. We're one week out from the national. How has that show changed your perspective or approach to WNBA collecting?

I I don't think it's really changed much for me. It's just given me more validation that the energy that I have felt online from collectors exists and it's authentic.

And that's happened that's through just a bunch of conversations that I've had with many of you who are likely listening.

Okay. I'll say the same thing, but something has changed for me from the national, and that's this idea of flexibility.

I feel like my collection right now, specifically my Nafissa Collier collection, is very rigid because I talk about this idea of a six pack and there being a prescribed six cards that I want to chase.

And I love that, and it's very satisfying when I get one of those and can add it.

But at the same time, when I was at the national and, you know, this Asia Wilson or I talked about the Marine Johannes or another card that I picked up, They weren't on my radar as cards that, you know, fulfilled a certain piece of my collection.

And then I saw them and I said to myself, this if I let this go, I'm not gonna be happy.

I'm not gonna I'm gonna be really upset that somebody So I think the idea of being more flexible and open to those cards that when you see them, you're like, oh, that's that's different, and I like that.

I feel more empowered to to make those purchases. Yeah. That's good recognition. Yeah. Okay. Let's go on to okay. I like this. I wanna talk about this.

This is a WNBA focused question, like, the league itself from at Cornerstone Cards. What the hell is going on with the aces, and what what are they missing? And Brett, I just wanted to hear from you. So many thoughts. Okay. Go ahead.

So Caitlin, I texted you. I got, one day, Saturday, I got I left the show, got a break, went and ate lunch by myself, then went back to my room. It was, like, the first, like, going back to the room during the day moment I had.

And I naturally put on the WNBA, and it was links and aces. And I I literally got to see, when I turned on the TV, McBuckets had four threes, and she was four for four.

And then I I gotta see her hit four more in a row. And it was I I'm getting goosebumps, like, right now because it was so absurd.

Like, she was just throwing flames, and it was just everything was going in. And I texted you, and I was just like, the the links are just beating the aces ass.

It was like and it was so weird because you were like, it was you're looking at this team that has got championships in the same jerseys and just getting with Asia Wilson just getting absolutely just destroyed.

And so, like, I in that moment when they cut to halftime, I was just like I I started reflecting.

I'm like, what the hell is happening with the aces? And I'll admit, I at the beginning of this whole show, I'd I said the aces are gonna win the championship.

I feel really stupid about that, but I'll I'll admit it. But, like, I've watched a lot of aces this year, and I think there's, like, three components. There's probably more, but three that comes to my mind.

I think number one, their, their bench is just they have zero bench support, and watching them is validation. Like, if you wanna be a contender in the WNBA, you have to have a bench. There's very, very little bench support.

The team collectively plays terrible defense. It's so bad. And it's it's it's, like, excruciating. I feel bad for aces fan. Well, no. I don't really. No. Don't feel bad. Yeah. Yeah. You've you've on plenty.

But, yeah, their defense is terrible. And then, you know and I'm not I don't think it's singular in one person, and I don't wanna throw her under the bus, especially because she's, you know, Notre Dame fighting Irish.

But, like, you know, Jewel Lloyd and the chemistry, it's the chemistry is not there.

So you've got bad bench, terrible defense, no chemistry leads to a no matter who's on we saw this. I'm gonna throw over to another sport. We saw this last year in the NFL with the Cincinnati Bengals.

You've got literally who played the best quarterback, Joe Burrow, numbers, get the best receiver, Ja'Marr Chase, and they couldn't make the playoffs because their defense was shit.

So it's like I feel like that this is a weird parallel that I'm just coming to, but it I feel like the aces are almost like this year's version of the Bengals in the NFL.

Wow. I love this diagnosis. You should forward this to Becky as soon as possible. Hopefully, we'll help her out. I'm sure she'd listen. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure she'd be very happy to hear from us.

Okay. I have two words for why the aces aren't doing well, and that's Sydney Colson. And I think I do think part of the team chemistry thing is Sydney Colson, and they kinda lost a piece of their soul when Sydney Colson left.

And I'm not saying she was the best basketball player because you guys know how I feel about Sydney Colson's on the court, play style, but I don't know. I don't know, Brett.

Maybe maybe losing Sydney Colson also is that kind of fourth wild card that's leading to their demise. This is a good opportunity for me to just step in because I've been very quiet, and I haven't been very vocal about this.

But I think I can validate you right now and going through adversity and the fever certainly have gone through adversity this year.

And by the way, I learned very quickly at the show that, the the first gen collectors do not like the fever, and that's fine.

I'm all about it. They're my team. They're my city. And you better hope that twenty two doesn't come back and they're playing like this come playoff time because I'll be waving the flag and you're all gonna hate me.

But I don't care what you think because they're my team and they're my city.

But they're they've won five games in a row, which whoever you're are at the time of recording is really, really hard to do in the WNBA, and they're doing it without Clark.

And I think she's not playing a lot, but I think Sydney Colson behind the scenes has a lot to do with the camaraderie I think so too. The new pieces, McDonald and Bibby coming in.

Like, it it's the glue. And so, like, I haven't thought about it until you brought her up in this instance, but I think she's playing a big role about a a big role with what's going on here in Indiana.

Okay. Love. I love the Sydney Colson shout out. Fellow podcaster, by the way. Direct competitor out to us, but, whatever.

Okay. Let's skip forward to another question. We we cannot get to all these. Let's go to at m j s underscore sports cards. What new acquisition, meaning trade or signing, will make the biggest difference on their new team?

And before I toss it over to you, Brett, let me just say how excited I am as a Lynx fan to have Dijanae Carrington on my team. One of my favorite players in the WNBA.

Amazing, amazing acquisition for the links. I feel like we got out, highway robbery on the on the wings, giving up Diamond Miller, Carly Samuelson, and a second round twenty twenty seven pick. I feel very content.

It feels like it's the missing piece of the championship puzzle, and you put two of the top defensive players in the league, DeJuanay Carrington being the only guard named to the all defense first team last year, And then Nafissa Collier, the reigning defensive player of the year, put them together.

I couldn't be more excited, and I think it was a great trade by Cheryl Miller who is here here to win. Or Cheryl Cheryl Reeve.

Cheryl Miller. Oh my god. Cheryl Reeve to win. And I love the idea. I said this, on the way home from the national. I love the idea of putting all our chips in. We wanna win now. We'll pay for it later. Who cares?

Get me the ring, and I'm excited for Dijanae to be on my team. Dijanae is the answer. There's no question. I think it the Links are the best team right now in the WNBA, and adding that piece before the playoff stretch was a huge move.

And you you nailed it. Like, defensively, they're adding her makes them very, very scary. So I'm a big fan of her, and I'm I did not like her.

I feel she felt so underutilized in in Dallas, much like everybody else not named Paige. But, yeah, I think that's a huge move, and you should be very excited for it. Yeah. And wings fans, you know, you can have Diamond Miller.

She's on the up and coming. She's she's playing pretty well, so don't lose hope yet. Hopefully, you guys can figure it out. But I think that's all we have time for today for the mailbag.

Thank you guys for submitting all those questions each week at WNBA card pod on Instagram. And thank you for listening, and and shout out seriously to everybody that we met at the national.

That was the highlight of my national. Like I said, if I didn't come home with any cards but just had the conversations, it still would have been worth it. Thanks, everybody. Peace.