Welcome back, loyal listeners of the Stacking Slabs Podcast Network to season four episode three of the WNBA card podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin, and I go buy cold lunch cards on the Instagram machines and on a couple of other corners of the Internet. I'm so, so excited to continue bringing collector driven and community focused content to you all this season, but I'm even more excited to introduce today's guest. I'm joined by none other than Anne Marie. And if you don't already know who Anne Marie is, I am honored to be the one to introduce you to her.

In addition to being my twenty twenty five national roommate, Anne Marie is the founder of one of the most popular women's sports card Instagram accounts out there, women on tops. And folks, that's with two p's, just to make sure. Her resume really speaks for itself. She's an associate professor of sports management with her research and teaching focused on sports marketing and sports consumer behavior, especially as it relates to what we all love, women's sports. She writes about sports cards and collecting for the athletic, and she's frequently invited to speak on panels and podcasts covering the business of sports cards.

So with all that in mind, I am super excited to have Anne Marie here with me today for this episode that we're calling a league without a blueprint, the first WNBA cards. We're gonna be digging into the late nineties and early two thousands when the WNBA first came onto the scene and the cards that came with it. I cannot wait to dive into this with you today. Without further ado, welcome, Anne Marie, to the pod. How are you doing today?

Hello. Thanks for the introduction. Let's nerd out. Let's talk cards. Let's I sound like a total tool.

Boring. Yes, sir. Business people. Let's talk cardboard. Yes.

Let's talk cardboard. I guess to to tip us off today, Anne Marie, I wanna give you some space to introduce yourself if you feel like I hadn't covered kind of your background and and why you're joining us today on this specific episode of the podcast. Well, I'm old. I mean, I you know, that's really my specialty here is that I've been collecting women's sports cards for a long time. So this you know, I'm at the point now where it feels like the year 2000 was, like, five years ago, ten years ago.

So talking about, like, 1997, like, when I graduated high school and, like, you know, 2001, 2004, like, it it doesn't seem you know, it's it's like one of those things when I'm in, like, my whatnot shows or I'm on on podcast and people refer to WNBA vintage cards, and I'm like, no. Like, you're in time out for five minutes. So, like, every everything is cool. I'm an open book. I love chatting.

The only thing that I request is that you not refer to this as vintage WNBA because that will make me put a pen through my eye. 100%, we will not. And for the listeners, our previous episode, we talked about actual vintage women's basketball cards. So if you wanna learn more about that era and the actual character is characterization of it, check out the episode with Cindy at Giant Legends. But today, we're not talking about vintage.

We're just talking about the late nineties and the early two thousands, an era that I am not too familiar with because for context, I was born in 2001. So this is an era I look back on with, no personal memory, but a lot of admiration and respect. And I'm excited to kinda dive into why you started collecting this era, how you got to that point, and then we'll get into the cards and the manufacturing landscape and the education component. But tell me about tell me about your personal collection in this era. Yeah.

So, you know, during this point, I had started collecting, like, lot of people, like, men's cards. It was a way I connected with my father. You have 1992. You have the SI for kids card. Mia Ham card comes out.

You know, like, I see it. I still have the card that I tore out of the SI magazine, and I look back at, past Anne Marie and wish she cared a little bit more about corners at that point, and edges, and, you know, would follow that was was a real like, you can't it was just it was like a it was like a a a a huge, just light bulb popped out, and I I I I really wanted to focus on women's cards. You know, before you know, what I was collecting at this point was because it was I was living it. You know, I I remember going to the first home liberty game at Madison Square Garden. You know, I remember buying the Rebecca Lobo jersey that I wore to the championship clinching game against the Minnesota lynx, a team I know that you, you may root for.

I mean, I was wearing the exact same jersey, that I bought in in 1997. I was at the I was actually I remember driving up to the first actual WNBA preseason game that happened in Storrs, Connecticut. It was Lobo's first game back. Right? And that was actually the first of his 2,000 people there.

I posted on my Instagram that I had found cleaning out stuff. I had taken some of the I because they just left them out, the, like, score sheets from this game, which I thought was so funny that I found a bunch. So I collected in this period because I lived in this period. You know? Like, I think when you think about, you know, 1997 and and, again, prior to 1997, right, we had 1996, we had upper deck sets, Olympic sets, you know, and SI cards.

That was really what we had because the Olympics was the moment for for women's basketball. Every four years, that's what we were looking forward to. So we also had the ABL prior. Reebok, Skybox had an ABL set that had that had come out, and there was a lot of giveaway packs for that. But 1997 is gonna be the origin story for WNBA collecting.

You know, when people say, like, what did it feel like? Yeah. Right? I mean, I think we were you were collecting history in real time. Right?

Everything was new. Right? This wasn't this wasn't like an investment. Right? We're not chasing investments.

One thing, you know, we can talk about, we weren't really, we weren't chasing parallels. Right? It wasn't it was really, it it felt foundational along with the league. I mean, it was very community driven. There was a lot of, like, just this sort of, like, energy building that we're building something.

And I think to a certain extent, collecting followed. Style wise, I would say during this time, particularly thinking about, like, 1997 through, like, even, like, '99 1999. Like, those early years, a lot of Olympic college, like, carryover in terms of, like, what people followed, what we trusted because the ecosystem from the league was so new. I mean, even going from, like, 1997 to 1998. Right?

1998, you had expansion. Right? You have the mystics, you have Shakamen. So the league is expanding while our card offerings are expanding. And I think in a lot of ways, you know, it it was it was also a different time period in the hobby.

Right? Like, I would say very much looking back. Right? Much more set building focus, team building focus. This wasn't a hit chasing period.

You were the hits a lot you were chasing were players on your team or players that you like. I would like in this period to I would say it felt more like NWSL community card collecting even today. Right? Okay. Yeah.

Then even, like, NBA card collecting. Right? You know, our access points were very different. Right? We there was no breaking.

Right? That wasn't something that was that was happening. It was local card shops. It was shows. It was early eBay.

It was message boards and online communities. It was the people that you met at games. Right? So I would say even this period because I think for me, like, when I think about when you said, like, okay, early years of of of WNBA. Like, I think of it as we have these, like, distinct errors in WA collecting.

So, like, I would say our first error is gonna be 1997 to 2004. Right? That's gonna be the first chunk. This is the pre Rittenhouse era when then there was a shift where something's changed and evolved. And I think in a lot of ways for for collectors like me, you know, when Prism comes on to the scene in 2000, that still felt like a step back from the products that we had in 2000.

Yeah. I think we had better products in 2000 than we did in 2020. Certainly from the quality measure. Absolutely. But even just from, like, what it what it included.

Right? I mean, we, WNBA collectors, would go almost a decade without a relic. Right? I mean, we just accepted so little. Right?

Right. Right. So, you know, for me, I think, like, the biggest change, if I'm thinking of, like you know? And and I guess maybe some of the rookies will change this. We weren't we weren't, I think, parallel or value play chasing in 1999 even with a holds claw.

I mean, maybe Sue Bird captured that, but it didn't even feel like it. I I didn't even think even in 2004 with Terasi, I think collecting felt closer to to to fandom than to a parallel market and to, like, a value, investment play. That is very interesting. It it does sound a lot like what I hear from the NWSL community where it's more team driven, more team collecting than player collecting or parallel collecting, like you were saying. I guess to sort of set the scene for folks, even for folks like me who I wasn't there for this.

Right. Can you paint the picture of what it felt like take take cards kind of out of it for one sec and just talk about what the league felt like in 1997. What was the excitement, the culture around it? Did you does it feel different? I'm sure it does than than it is.

Yeah. I mean, it has to. You know what I mean? I mean, 1997 and, again, it's I think it's all very contextual. Right?

Because sometimes it's when, like, trying to describe what 1997 felt like, you almost have to understand what also sports and and women's sports felt like in 1997. Right? That there was a newness. Right? Like, was but there was a growing energy.

Right? And a lot of the decisions, again, I think it's interesting looking at this period with cards because you really have, the first couple years of WNBA when you just look at and this is where my, like, nerdy professor hat and consumer. You know, you had rapid growth in viewers, and then you basically have a fall. You have, like, 2002, 2003. You basically have ESPN and others making decisions that basically put WNBA on the back burner.

And, really, to a lot of to to a big part of it, 2020, you know, '3, where we are now is just picking up from a decade that we lost because of decisions that were made that people didn't I mean, it was really one or two people at the league and ESPN that said, I'm not interested in women's basketball, so we're gonna drop it from ESPN, ESPN two, and we're gonna make it hard to we're we're gonna create an environment where our worldview of what matters is gonna be reflected. Not because it wasn't authentic, but because we just didn't put it out there. You know? So, you know, I think, you know, again, you really have I think when you look at how the WNBA and viewership change, you actually kinda see that in the cards. Right?

So you've got I would say there are, like, four sets, four time periods that are key, let's say, sets during this time period. Right. Right. And I'm gonna say markers. Right?

Just to keep me from talking for four hours about this. You gotta start at 1997 Pinnacle. Like, Pinnacle Inside is gonna hold the WNBA license for two years before they go out of business. Right? 1997 is gonna be the inaugural year because you have to understand during this period, defining a like, early WNBA rookie logic is kind of messy.

Okay. Like yes. Like, what is Lisa Leslie's rookie card? She has cards in 1996. She has SI cards.

She you know, I think about Cynthia Cooper, who in 1994 with Lisa Leslie has a European card. Right? The comic card, which, I did a a video with a collector where we I I at the National, I show Cynthia Cooper her 1994, comic Italian card, which she had never seen before, and she, like, freaks out. Right? 1997 Pinnacle, Inside WNBA comes out in cans.

And when I mean that, I mean, like, literal cans, like, cans you buy beans in. It's the same can format that they use for some of their men's products. So, like, well, there's no ripping packs in 1997. I'm literally in my dorm room with a can opener opening cans. And inside the can, jostling around, I can see the PSA and grading people going crazy, is a thin cellophane pack with cards.

Right? And in this set, right, you don't have you have only, like, two inserts. Right? You've got my town. You've got team development.

They're every 19 cans. Oh my god. Right? And then you have these, like, white trivia cards, which are just weird. They're not really cards.

Right? So you've got two parallels in this. You have court collection, which is gonna be one out of every seven cans, and they're gonna be like a a foil, a traditional foil. And then you're gonna have executive collection, which are gonna be like a foil. Yeah.

You're already clapping because you know it's coming. Like, a foil with more of, like, a little bit of a prism sort of glare, they're gonna be every 47 cans. Right? So you've got cans, which is, like, bizarre. Right?

You've got so so this is gonna be our first. Right? Limited inserts, this ridiculous delivery model, and and two basic parallels. So that's what we're introduced to. I'm gonna say the next marker is gonna be 1999 for a couple of reasons.

Right? 1999, I would argue, is going to be the greatest rookie class for a WNBA card product. I would put that rookie class up against 2018, 2019, 2024. Right? Wow.

Massive rookie class. You not only have a massive rookie class, you have some veteran players are going to make their first WNBA card. So while you've got an incredible rookie class coming in, you've got the first Don Staley card. You've got the first Katie Smith card. Right?

You'll these these, like, iconic hall of fame members that are also having their first card. Becky Hammond will not have her first card until 2000. That's gonna be part of it because of the draft status and stuff. So her card doesn't hit until 2000. There's another thing that's gonna make 1999 important.

Right? It we're gonna now have two sets. We're gonna have w 1999 is gonna have a hoops WNBA, which is gonna be, like, I would say, a lower sort of like the done risk maybe of today. Right. And then you're gonna have the the FLIR Ultra is gonna come into the market.

Now remember, they're picking this product up because Pinnacle has gone out of business after 1998. Right? So FLIR Ultra, you now have, which is gonna be more of, like, what would be considered, like, a higher brow set. Like, I remember not here being like, oh, there's FLIR Ultra now. Like, that's, like, the like, that's the expensive that's the micro beer.

Right? But here's an so and Fleer there's a couple of things here. This is gonna be the first autographs. This is gonna be where we're gonna see autographs for the very first time. Now in the '90 nine Hoops products, autographs are gonna be in one every a 144 packs.

Right? So autographs are not, like, are not going to be, like, featured that we see in some of these products. Right? Right. In in Ultra right?

And autographs are gonna be promoted as a big hit. I'll say this. First time you're gonna see autographs. Right? Ultra is gonna do their fresh ink autographs.

They're gonna all be numbered to 400. So it's not, like, still, like, you expect I don't even know if they were one per box. Right? So $99.09, you're gonna have two options we have. One is gonna be kinda billed as more premium.

You're also going to have this is gonna be the introduction of medallions, which are gonna be something where we're now gonna take things that are gonna be commonplace within the NBA, and we're gonna see them now in the WNBA. These are gonna have the gold medallions. Right? And they're gonna have which and you're gonna have platinum. Now the platinums aren't a one of one here.

Platinum's are gonna be the 99 of the vets. They're gonna be the 66, I don't know why, of the rookies. Right? There's also gonna be three insert sets here. So we went from two insert sets in 1997 to three insert sets.

Okay. Next, we're gonna go to 2,000. Why would I mark 2,000 as gonna be is gonna be important? For one big reason. This is where we're gonna finally have memorabilia.

So 2,000 FLIR Ultra, this is gonna be the feel the game, which are actually gonna be shoe cards. Right? And they're gonna be, like again, they're gonna they're gonna actually mirror the one in 40 one in 144, I don't know why I remember this, Packs. Right? You're also going to have a real limited edition autographed memorabilia cards, which are gonna be numbered to most 22.

They're gonna be between, like I think it's, like, twelve and twenty two. The other thing with 2,000 and FLIR Ultra, why I think it's an important marker, this is where we're gonna see our first die cut cards and actually our first redemption. People forget this. In 2,000 ultra, you have a redemption auto to 500. That would be teaspoon, Theresa Weatherspoon.

Right? You have autos and also gold parallel autos. This is the first time to 50. So 1999, we see our first autographs ever. 2000, we see the introduction of a memorabilia, which is gonna be shoe.

You're also gonna now see a parallel, right, in autographs where you're gonna have your just your, like, regular autographs. Right? But then you're gonna have a gold parallel autograph to 50. This is also where you see masterpiece, which is gonna be a one of one and die cuts. Gold medallion, plat one of one masterpiece and platinum 50, and then the 25, these are gonna be die cuts.

So this is the first sort of, like, die cut card we're gonna have. Trophy case is gonna be the die cut insert here. The last significant and this again, when I'm thinking of significant sets, I'm not just thinking significant because, you know, 2,000 is going to have, is gonna have, you know, super these are, like, sets that were significant. It's gonna be Fleer tradition. Fleer tradition, I feel like, is one of the forgotten sets.

Here's what's interesting about Fleer tradition. It's 204 cards. So it is a large base. Right? But this is what they did.

They took the rookie cards, which they're gonna call, like, draft rookies in this set, and they're gonna make them all redemption. So cards and I remember this. I will I will remember this when I will forget everything because I was chasing these MFers. Card one sixty six to two zero four are all redemption exchange, which was one out of every 30 packs. Why do I remember that?

I graduate like, what do I remember of the year 2002, you know, 2001? Graduated college, stupid annoying redemption exchanges, which are gonna be important for when we think for collectors, right, in the FLIR tradition. Autos, they are gonna have autos, and there's gonna be two parallel to autos in this. There's gonna be very rare. You never see these coming up, but they'll be FLIR tradition 2,001 autos that are called pluses.

What a stupid name for a parallel. But those are numbered two player jerseys. Right? There's also gonna be numbered. The other forgotten thing, and I still have these damn vouchers, they included WNBA ticket vouchers.

That's pretty neat. That's actually pretty neat. I I it's funny because I don't remember if I ever sent one in, but I I still have, like, four I remember I could put Cynthia Cooper's on them, four ticket voucher cards. I don't know if I sent them in now what would happen. But to me, those are, like, four big moments during these period between, like, 1997 and and 2004.

For sure. Like, labeling them sort of as these inflection points that represent the growth that the league is experiencing and especially in cards. I suppose I wanted to touch on a question. I I've been writing notes as you walk us through this timeline. Quiz.

Don't worry. Yeah. We'll have a quiz at the end. I'm gonna take my, seltzer sponsored clear clear clearly American by Peach. Go ahead.

Beautiful. Okay. I love it. Okay. So the the question I kinda wanna dig into with you is this idea you mentioned in in talking about the different time frames or inflection points is this idea that there's no really rules around collecting in the WNBA in terms of defining what one's rookie card is, what the most, I suppose, coveted parallel is.

I wanna talk to you about how we determine that both at the time when the products were releasing or if you think that today, we still look back and we think to ourselves, okay. Is the '96 Leslie the true Ricky card, or is it the '90 seven? You know? These types of rules that So there are, like okay. So thinking back and, this is from my I'm a qualitative researcher.

Right? This is from my perspective. I would say during the time period, nobody cared. Nobody cared. I mean, it was just one of those things where, like, these weren't investments.

Right? We weren't thinking of we weren't, like at least I wasn't. I mean, maybe some smart people were. I would have certainly bought more cards there, but I don't remember having conversations about, like, investments and what parallels mattered. Right?

Like, we just didn't. I mean, there are some really important, like, arguments here. And, again, I think there's some norms that have been accepted in the hobby about what counts as a rookie. So Yeah. I was on a, like, a a tag committee, right, for PSA where we're talking about, and I'm I'm not a big grader as as as you know.

We're talking about the sort of, what do they call them? Like, the checklist for PSA. The the what are they called? The Population reports and stuff? Or Yeah.

You know how, like like, nerd collectors will try to get Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever they're called. Right?

And so, like, a good example of this would be Teachha. Right? Her rookie card. Right? So Teachha's in a insert in 1998.

Hers would be I believe it was the number ones. Right? But it's an insert. Right? So do people consider when we were thinking about how you would do this for PSA, do you consider her 1998 insert her rookie or the 1999?

Well, there's some rules. Right? A rookie card is it has to be pack inserted at random at a in a product that is the first appearance at the highest level in a pack pulled set that is widely distributed. Inserts don't count. So if you look for PSA, her rookie card is nineteen ninety nine even though she had the nineteen ninety eight card.

Right? Because those are the norms. Right? It's why, like, for instance, like like, young guns in in PWHL hockey and in hockey are considered part of the base set. Because if it was an insert, it would fall out of that traditional definition.

Right? So, again, here's where you get into the argument on Alisa Leslie. Right? Do you consider the 1996 tops Olympic 1996 tops USA widely distributed enough? Now, again, I could say at that point, the Olympics is the highest level of play.

I think most people would say it's 1997 because we're giving more deference to a domestic league. Right? I could also again and again, this is where you go. I have, you know, the 1994 Cynthia Cooper joker card. Lisa Leslie has a 1994 joker card there as well.

That's not a pack driven widely distributed set. I can live with that. Right? So yeah. Go ahead.

So so I think, like, we fit them we fit them in. Right? I think WNBA is easier to fit in than, like, PWHL and women's hockey has a, like, much, I think, much more clear you know, soccer has a much harder definition because you have stickers. WNBA, I think it's easier. PWHL, I think it's much easier, but people don't like it because it doesn't privilege the new collectors wanna privilege PWHL.

New additions, not the team Canada, even though it goes against those definitions. So but I don't think these are arguments we were really having. They weren't? Okay. So if these weren't arguments you were having when the cards were coming out, when did you see this kind of shift?

It was it was it recently, these conversations around rules and value? I think it yes. I think more new but I think maybe Rittenhouse once Rittenhouse again, Rittenhouse gets the license. They're mostly known for and they change the distribution model where they go to scale back I hated Rittenhouse. Ugh.

Now I look back. I love the product, but I hate it because it got more expensive. Yeah. Because and it was bad for the WNBA. Right?

Because they made sets more limited. Right? So, like, again, you know, there's what? 200 and, what, 225 Maya Moore based rookie cards total. It's stupid.

Right? So what the WNBA needs is they need wide distribution. They don't they don't like, if you're the w even today. Right? The WNBA doesn't need rookie royalty.

WNBA wants wide distribution. They wanna build a big house that lots of people could be in because card you know, the biggest the biggest predictor of spend for fans is fan avidity. One thing that here are things that increase fan avidity, gambling, fantasy sports, sport cards. Right? So they don't want exclusivity.

Right? Rittenhouse pulled an exclusivity. Right? So I didn't like them at that point. Right?

So I think we maybe people start thinking about it as these things got but, like, again, we're talking about, like you know, I go back sometimes on my eBay history, and we'll see what I paid for things in 2018, 2019, and it's, like, criminal. Yeah. Shickening. Like, so I I think these are sort of, like, newer conversations, right, around it. I just don't remember having them.

Or if I did, I didn't listen because I probably would have bought a lot more Diane I I would have definitely gone for the, you know, Diana Terrazzi's platinum, you know, out out of you know? I I I I I would have definitely gone for her medallion cut out of 25. Right. Right. Was he You know, again, these are and I like, there were way more set collecting.

Way more set collecting. Way more set collecting. Way more a focus on that than of, you know, and I'm a good example of that. Right? I didn't buy a million superb rookies.

It would never occur to me to buy a million superb rookies. Because you had one. You didn't need a million. One of each. Right?

And then I had picked up a couple of them. I think later, like, at one point, I think I owned, like, five of the Maya Moore to 31 rookie autos. I just found them and would just buy them up. And then, you know, I think a change in my collecting, and I think this change was in, like, maybe even 2,000 when I was like, I don't need to hoard cards. Me having five of these 31, it's not spreading joy.

It's not it's not benefiting hobbies. So I just I mean, I just in, like, one year Oh my gosh. I wish I was there for that. That would've Yes. Others were.

Yeah. But I you know? And I and and and I I I see that happening with even PWE my collecting NWEs. I mean, it was just, like, from a hoarding mentality to, like, you know, like, this is again, the WNBA landscape has shifted, and it shifted for a number of reasons. Popularity of WNBA.

We had what happened in the card market, breaker culture. You know, this was there there it was just it was a different language. It was a different language. 100%. One thing that I wanted to hit on, I heard a term.

And if people have tuned in to podcasts that you've been guests on before, they've heard this term. But if if they haven't, if this is their first time, I kinda wanna dig into this idea of fan affinity. Yeah. Maybe we could talk about how that applies to the WNBA during this time compared to how it looks today and incorporate Weave and Carte, the the the arena Yeah. Into that.

So I probably I mean, my students would say if there's one term that I talk about every single class period in marketing, it's gonna be fan avidity. Biggest predictor of spend. How big of a fan you are. Right? And, this is the central most important.

Now women's sport fans have a higher fan avidity than men's sport fans. Period. Period. Right? And it it makes sense.

If I wanna watch an NWSL game or PWTGO or WNBA game, I can't just, like, trip over it on my TV. Right? Like, it's getting easier, but, like, it takes effort to find that. And that effort builds identity, that that labor. It's like kind of like there's a certain labor in collecting there's always been a labor in collecting women's sport cards where you can't go down to your neighborhood store or watching women's sports.

Right? So that increases our avidity. Right? So with that, like, women's sport fans, when you look overall, this isn't just cards. Right?

We will spend more on sport than men's sport fans. Right? Because that's a reflection of that avidity. Now avidity grows through things like fantasy sport gambling. Like, the vast majority.

Right? Over 85% of money that goes into professional leagues from gambling isn't direct payments from gambling interests. It's through indirect increases in fan avidity. Mhmm. Through people who gamble and bet on sports watch sports.

They buy more sport content. They again, same thing with cards. Cards act in very similar ways. Right? We follow sport more.

We watch more games. We learn about the identities. We follow sponsors more. Right? So card collecting does that.

It's a and this is why it's dangerous when leagues why it's a bad decision when leagues, for instance, will say, I'm gonna go with a bigger manufacturer who's gonna put out less products than maybe with a smaller manufacturer, I e, like, Parkside, that may put out more products that are more tied to fan communities because what they need is not higher expensive cards leagues. They need cards to be used to carry their torch and to build new fans. Yeah. So when you look back at the era that we're focusing on for today, the 1997 through the February, these are kinda, like, rough estimates. But the this era, when you look back on it from your vantage point, we're sitting in 2026, is there anything that you would have changed if you were in charge of the distribution, the manufacturing, the marketing, the entire system that drove, WMBA card collecting, would you have changed anything, or do you think they had it right?

Well, I mean, it's it's I've been sitting in a cheap seat. And, again, I would say 2004 is a really important point because that's where Fleer loses the license and Rittenhouse comes in. Right. And Rittenhouse is going to fundamentally change the distribution system. Right?

So that's why I say 9097 to 2004 is a really neat sort of package. Mhmm. I wouldn't put cards in cans. That's like a I guess that's an easy one. I kinda like it, though.

I kinda like the nostalgia factor. You didn't have to open them. Like, this where I'm like, I didn't like opening them then. I don't like opening them now. Here's the thing.

I think they did a lot that they got right that then we retreated from. Right? Like, I can say like, I think about these sets. Like, I can think about, you know, 2,003 ultra. You got all star game materials.

Right? Where you have game worn. Game game worn from all star games. Right? You've got you've got nameplates.

Nameplates to 50 from game used jerseys. Right? I think about, god, I think about 2002 Fleer Authentics. Right? You got ticket cards.

Ticket cards. Yeah. Game ticket cards in there. I think about, god. I I think about, you know, '19 I think of even Dominion.

Right? You got Girls Rock die cut cards or, you know, all these. And then you look at what we were left with a decade twenty years later, and it sucks. They have certainly retreated in the innovation aspect of the job. Think know?

And this goes back to the, like, so much of some of the attitudes has been just be glad for what you get. You know? And it and, again, and that was the same at you know, that was the same attitude that WNBA players got in 1997. That was just you could argue that's the same attitude that sometimes they get in CBA deals today that, like, hey. Guess what?

You're a second class citizen, but at least you're not a fifth class citizen. Wonderful. Like like, I just again, I think part of it is looking back at some of these sets, you're just like, man, we didn't realize how good we had it. Oh, that makes me so sad. And and and so I suppose that kinda brings me to a question that I had for you, which is why do you think, you know, that we had it good, we had all these different innovations, things were growing, they were experimenting with inserts, with die cuts, with different technologies, different distribution methods.

Why do you think it matters to the why should somebody be collecting this era of sports cards today when, you know, most of the focus is on twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five WNBA cards? What's so important about this era? What can you So I think there's a difference. Right? And I think this is where you see different ecosystems.

Right? Is that you've got I think you have idea of card buying is a fragmented space now. I think when I looked in 1997, it was collectors and sellers. Right? When I go on whatnot, I see a lot of sellers that have products from the last six months, seven months that don't really know the product, right, that are hyping up, that are often telling wildly untrue things.

Right? Make a mule. Now I think now I think we've got collectors. We've got investors. We've got short term flippers.

And I don't use slippers in a negative way. I think all these people are actually required in the ecosystem. Yeah. Right? This is the value judgment.

Right? We've got we have people with very limited memory, right, who are just interested in the short term, short sale sort of flipping mentality. Right? So for me, I think why people care about this era, I think each of those groups would have a different reason for caring about this era. Right?

I think you care about this era because print I mean, print runs will get shorter under Rittenhouse. Right? So the print runs are are you know, print runs I I think about, like, a 2,000 Dominion, and I feel like the print run was astronomical. I think these print runs are gonna be higher than they're gonna be under Rittenhouse. But you're gonna have, like, you know, still pretty lower print runs.

Right? So, like, you know, a Sue Bird Authentics, right, rookie, which was is only gonna be to 2002. Right? That's still, you know, that's still gonna be a lot less than the thou you know, how many cards of Caitlin Clark do we have in our Wow. Hundreds of Sue Bird, again, with all parallels.

Right? Sue Bird has a 2002 Authentics to 2002. There's the parallel set, which is front row to 99. Right? Then you've got you've got the FLIR Ultra 2,002, which is gonna be that's gonna be a redemption.

Important when people are buying boxes. Right? And you're gonna have a gold you're gonna have a gold medallion rookie to 25. That's it. That's it.

The two parallel rookies she has is a front row and a and a gold medallion. Right? So, again, things for the long term and short term, if you're like, couldn't care less, I'm a yeah. Those are gonna you see those holding value. The for the collector, I mean, this is where they started.

Right? Like, this is this is the history. Right. Right? So, you know, a big part of, I think, this period when you look at, like like, drivers of consumer behavior.

Right? You've got superstars who now are, like, the sort of, like, singles, the driving demand. But here's where I think it's gonna be important for you're gonna see some cards of role players, particularly for people that are looking to complete sets or they want sets that are in pristine condition. These are role player cards that might even sell better than some of your vets. Why?

Because they can be harder to replace in good conditions. They were frequently less frequently saved or graded, and they're annoying for set builders to find twenty years later. Right? So, like, again, for investment things, you can look at them in in in sort of in different ways. Yeah.

I mean, a lot of my cards I mean, again, coming out of these packs maybe weren't in great condition, but a lot of us also weren't using top loaders. We were using binders. So some of them did well because they were in binders. Right. Know?

And some of them, you know, they they weren't instantly graded. They weren't pack pulled and went instantly graded, so condition sensitive. Or, you know, like I said, for 1997, they came in a can. So when you find good executive you know, if you're looking at an executive collection, which was one in every 47 cans banging around, right, like, those grades can be really grade sensitive. Absolutely.

Again, part of it is I just I we it's just a deaf very different fractured buyer today than there was, I would say, in 1998. Yeah. To kinda expand on that, something that I was interested is is you've been on both sides of the table in card collecting. Right? Like, you've been a buyer and a seller in some regard.

I'm much better at buying than selling. You're much better at buying than selling. Okay. Good to know. I already take note of that.

Terrible. Yeah. I I I sell because I I need to clear off my desk and to to to to buy more. Yep. Right.

And so what might be sitting on your desk could be something from 2024, or it might be something from 1999 or something in between. Do you think you've seen an uptick in interest from collectors to these early years, or do you think that it's something that might happen more so in the future? Yeah. No. I think there's been a big uptick.

I think a bigger uptick has been in Rittenhouse, I would say, because of our memory. Right? So, like, again, it's a it's still shocking to me how cheap some of these, you know, Holdclaw or Katie Smith or Don't sell these, like, great legends in the FLIR Ultras go for cheap. I think there's been more of an interest in those stars in Rittenhouse. Yeah.

Because you have a little bit more of the ex And, you know, I don't see it as much for these. I see I think there's there's a real underinvestment, actually. I think these cards might still be under underinvested, particularly when we look at some of the die cuts, some of the platinums. I think the platinums we see go through the roof. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. The rarity and scarcity, definitely. And this is where this is where it's up to an individual collector. I don't get it.

Like, this is where I'm bad. I don't understand the excitement sometimes over, like, a platinum Cynthia Cooper 2,000 card. I just Okay. I well, because I'm like, what's the significance? Right.

2000. This is like, I get, excitement over a 1997. I really get the excitement out of a 1994, like, card. I get excitement out of you know? But I'm just like, it's a but I'm like this in general where I'm just like Yeah.

Different flavors for different people. Exactly. But those cards doing really, really well. Yeah. 100%.

Well, that we're we're talking about cards, and one of the segments that we have on this show is called canning contribution. Yeah. So that's kind of a good segue of how to get here. So if people listen to the last episode, what happens is we ask our special guest to pick out four cards, kind of a Mount Rushmore for the era that we're discussing, that define sort of what they think of as being kind of cornerstone cards of a collection of this era. And so when we talk about it, you know, we've discussed the different technology improvements.

We've talked about different cards. We talked about different players. And I wanna hear from you what you think is somebody who was there. Somebody who is there. Hard.

I love you somewhere there. Like like, I feel like I need to wear a shirt that says, like, I am from the nineteen hundreds. Like, literally, like, you're right. I was there. You were there.

I was there. I was an adult. I could drive. Right? I could I could drive.

I am Hit us hit us with the with the current. Older than the WNBA. Okay. This was very hard for me. Okay.

This was this was difficult. Right? Because there's so many potentials. Alright. So here, I'm gonna go and order it with year.

Okay. K. Which maybe you can see in here. Okay. I'm gonna start with the and this is always hard with the camera.

Right? I'm gonna start with this is the executive collection, Cheryl Swoops. I think this is one of the iconic photo cards. If there's any iconic great photo in the 1997, like like like, pinnacle inside, it's gonna be Cheryl Swoops, number 26, executive collection. This, I got a p I this, I got a 10 in.

Not these these grade very hard. But I'm not a real grade grade whore, but use your use your 10. Alright. Love it. I'm gonna talk about redemption here.

Right? Okay. I'm I pulled this one because and and I'm this is the and you don't have to listen to me. You can listen to advanced statistics. This is the greatest WNBA player in history.

Right? And her rookie card was in 2001. And I'm gonna say her my top rookie card for her is going to be the tradition, which is gonna be the annoying Anne Marie hated this set because these were all redemptions in every 30 packs. And this was a card that I pulled. Ann Marie pulled the redemption, greatest WNBA player of all time, Tamika Ketchings.

In and, again, I pulled this. It ended up being a 10. Proof that you can put a card in a binder and in a Rubbermaid tin and move it from shitty apartment to shitty apartment, and you can still get a 10. Wow. There you go.

The greatest player. I love the I love the exclamation of greatest of all time. Well, we can we can debate that, but I do like You don't need to debate it. Just look at it it again, you don't have to listen to me. Just look at w just look at advanced statistics.

It's simple. Okay. This to me, if you wanna say the kinds of here is a good exam. This is, I think, in this whole time period, if I had what kind of cool cards there are, there is this cool card. Now I will say, I have had this card personally autographed by Sue Bird.

Right? Here is the kind of stuff that we had that you just don't see anymore. This is Sue Bird rookie relic card. Now you know do you know, Caitlin, why this relic card is the coolest relic card that was ever made? I do.

Why don't you tell them? Why don't you tell them? Because the jersey in this card is from her first WNBA game. They just don't make them like that anymore? We can't I mean, we can't even get player associated.

K? This is her very first jersey from her WNBA game. So I had I I had her sign this card and authenticated. This to me is like, if you like, it doesn't get better than this. And yet we accept so little.

Right? And then I guess I can't not have die the Diana Taurasi rookie. This is her base rookie. Here's the annoying thing about this card. The red borders now, again, I'm not a grade person, really.

I'm happy. I have an I have this in a nine. I'm happy with my 8.5. It it is a really hard graded card. It's a really hard graded card.

But this is, again, probably of the Mount Rushmore's of cards. I mean but here's what I'm gonna say. You know, the Katie Smith platinum medallion rookie 1999, that's a grail card for me. This I would say what's hard about this time period is it wasn't about the grade. It really wasn't about the flip.

It wasn't about a short term hold. We just didn't talk about it in those terms. So I think I think really the best represent representative of the Mount Rushmore of this era was whatever the hell cards you were collecting. If only we could bring some of that philosophy back to the hobby. Maybe that's the purpose of this era is to bring back that passion driven collecting instead of I mean, I think it's still there.

It's just in pockets. And it's a lot harder to do that these days. 100. Right? You know, it's just it and and there's so much noise.

Right? There's just there's so much noise. So, you know, there's also I think people like, I would say this. Right? Like, I get this question a lot from the same kind of people that call it vintage WNBA will be like, you know, it's so much easier now to get cards.

It really wasn't that hard back then. We had eBay. We had we could message people. We had fan communities. Right?

Like, whatnot, you know, whatnot didn't just suddenly make it easier to get cards. Right? It made it easier to sell cards. That's the difference. Right?

And and I think what's important to understand, and I see this a lot. Joy from Harrisports articulated this perfectly to me. Right? Where and I see this a lot where people will be like, WMEA cards are so much better. Look what they're worth.

Look at all these things. And I'm like, expensive cards that are worth a lot is not a priority of a collector. It's a priority of a seller. Collectors, I don't celebrate when the cards that I love are now $800. Sellers celebrate that.

That's a key difference. Right? That's a key difference. And a lot a lot of people conflate the desires and wants of both as if they're the same, and it's very different. Very insightful, Anne Marie.

That's that's a great way to kinda round out, and I wanna give you the opportunity. I had a question for you, which is kind of a final note to the audience today of, like, advice to somebody that's going back to collect this error. Maybe they haven't collected it before or maybe they paused and they got distracted. How do you think you would advise somebody to deafen that kind of noise that we're hearing in the hobby today and to just focus on their collecting? I think part of it is, again, it's like the just like, you know, in, you know, the sirens.

Right? And he had to put cotton in the ears of the sailors to keep from falling over. Just, like, find what you're interested in. Right? Find a player you're interested in.

Right? Go there's so much access today. Find people that have the same common interest as you. Collect what you like. Really collect what you like.

There's you know, again, I would say this. If you're look one thing I would say is when you find a card that you want, especially if it's one of these short numbered, you may not see it again for years. That's the other thing. I think WNBA cards have always been undergraded not because there wasn't the market wasn't there, but because people were keeping them. Right.

Right? Like, grading to a large extent is a product of an investment driven market. Right? I don't I have so many cards that literally have just it never would occur to me to grade them because they're not like, during this era, we weren't grading, and I think a lot of this era still isn't graded because they're not leaving our collection. So if you see a card, buy it.

Because a lot of these are like like, I'm thinning my collection down right now. Like, I'm I'm having some whatnot shows and, like, thinning them down, and it is it is it is very it is very hard. It is very stressful. Right? And I'm running them at a dollar.

Right? Because I'm just like, I don't need all these cards. Right? But a lot of these cards aren't being moved. Mhmm.

So my advice is when you see it, buy it. I love it. Yeah. A final parting note would be of of Anne Marie's is to enable you to buy the cards that you love. I love that advice.

That's I need that. It will create another point. Yeah. It's kinda like, you know, I was talking with friends about how, like, you know, you need we need to normalize doing things we love even if we're bad at it. Right?

Like, if you wanna be a if you wanna take tap dancing, take tap dancing. You may suck at it. We need to normalize doing things that bring joy even if we're not good at it. Like, you know, maybe one of the things that we look at in the future of WMB collecting is gonna be how the hobby maybe maybe it'll end up resetting itself. Maybe it goes in one extreme and then come back to another extreme, but, like, just normalize collecting what you like.

I love it. This has been an insightful conversation as all of yours that you have are on card collecting. It's been a pleasure to dig into your brain and kind of live vicariously through you in the air. Old. Look at you.

You're like, tell us tell us about the war, Anne Marie. Tell us about the cards that came in cans. Tell us, is it because cardboard was too expensive? Tell us, Anne Marie. What was it like?

Well, I think the the listeners will greatly appreciate that perspective. I know that I did. I thank you so much for joining us on the WNBA card podcast. And next next, episode, we're gonna dive even further into the era of the superstar in these emerging, rookie cards and different manufacturers entering the scene. So stick around if you guys are interested in learning more from different collectors.

But this week has been an incredible episode with Anne Marie at women on tops on Instagram. If you do not follow her, you're missing out. Get over there and hit her a follow. Alright. Thanks, Anne Marie.

Thank you so much.