Welcome back, loyal listeners of the Stacking Slabs podcast two, episode 11 of the WNBA card podcast. My name is Katelyn. I go by at cold lunch cards on the Instagram machine and everywhere else on the Internet.

And my I'm joined today by my awesome cohost, Brett McGrath at stacking slabs. And we're here to continue delivering collector driven and community focused content for you guys in the WNBA card collecting community.

So Brett, how are you feeling today? Did you hear that Caitlin Clark is back on the court playing basketball?

Wait. Who's that? I've never heard of that person. 22. She plays on the fever. She's back shooting just meteoric threes from all over the place. So because of that, I feel pretty good right now. How about you?

I'm happy to hear that, Brett. You you needed to be picked up after your drought without Clark as a fever fan. So I'm happy for you. And I'm also happy because there's been no slowdown from the links since we last chatted.

So as a links fan, I'm repping my Nafisa Collier shirt today, MVP playing out of her mind. Front runner. Yeah. Oh, front runner by by far. The only the only player in minus in the betting odds right now and by a lot.

So, that that that's my franchise player, and I have nothing to complain about on that front, especially because, we are no longer the only team that, lost their undefeated streak. So I am happy.

I'm excited to talk about that more later. I will also for the listeners listening, I got my fever hoodie on. It is summertime in Indiana, and it's hot, but, you know, I crank up the AC, especially when I'm doing podcasting.

So I'm I'm a I'm a year round I invest in invest in hoodies. Like, I've got hoodies everywhere because I like a cold house, but I don't like to be, you know, shivering while I'm trying to deliver one of these episodes.

I respect it. Well, we got a lot to get into, a lot of stuff to get excited about.

Tip-off today's conversation with a super fun prompt. Brett, you came up with this prompt and I just gotta give you credit there because I thought it was a fun one that we're gonna be able to dive into.

And today's prompt for episode 11 is what do you think needs to happen in order for another player in the WNBA besides one like Caitlin Clark to break through and become desirable at all time levels, to non WNBA collectors?

That's a loaded question. It's a big one. Why don't you break down what your thoughts were be, behind asking this question and then maybe get into your thoughts about it?

I'm gonna how about this? I'll break down the why behind the question and then, you know, before these episodes, I go through all the notes.

And Caitlin, you left a lot of notes. So I might pitch it back to you before I kinda get into what I have to say. But I think about this question and topic a lot, and I think about whether it's the w or another category.

I think about the strength of the, audio or the strength of the market, what's happening with the cards, who's moving, who's who's up, who's down.

I don't try to, like, overwhelm myself with it, but I really am very curious on just the dynamics of each individual market.

And I think it's safe to say when you look at sports cards as a whole, I always think about Michael Jordan first.

Even though I'm not a Michael Jordan collector, I a lot of what happens with price fluctuations, starts with MJ. And so I wanted to, like, shrink that mindset mentality down to the w.

And I've been in some conversations recently when we're talking about w cards and the w market and what gets stated a lot, which is not something that I I don't disagree with, but it is very much a two market, two markets in the w right now.

You've got the w market as a whole, and you've got the Caitlin Clark market. They look very, very different. The prices are very, very different.

The way the cards are promoted, the way they're talked about, the outside interest, it's just a lot. And I'm not saying that there's not outside interest in the w market from non w collectors, but, you know, I'm looking right here.

I think I showed this off. The fact that I gotta take these sticky notes off, like, literally, this is like PSA's magazine.

Caitlin Clark is on the front of this magazine, which is, it's crazy. So I was thinking about that. And for me, obviously, like, it's I'm very, very biased. I'm a fan. I live a stone's throw from where she drains threes all the time.

And I, you know, I'm happy that she's in my city, but then also there's a part of me then it's been kind of a theme in these conversations where it's like, what else is happening?

And do people even know that there are these great players like, Nafissa Collier, who is the front runner of the MVP and is having just a incredible year?

Like, are there people who aren't dialed into the WNBA who know about her, know she's exist, know that her rookies came out in the debut of the Donner's product in the Panini era of w collecting.

And if individuals on the outside knew all of these things, would they would it increase their likelihood to spend money on those players?

And so, like, all of these things that exist within collecting and market dynamics, interest me, and I'm just curious. So that's why I was like, I think this might be a good topic, and I think it resonated with you.

I have not read of all of kind of what your thoughts are, and that's why before I say anything, I kinda wanted to just pitch it back to you. Yeah. And when Brett says there's a lot of notes here, I did kinda go ham.

I I have a lot of thoughts, and it's not a linear discussion that I'm going to present or thoughts that I'm going to present. It's very complex because I have, interesting views on this question.

I am not an Indiana Fever fan. I am a Caitlin Clark fan, but she is not my favorite player, and I don't think that she is the best player in the league right now. I think the best player in the league is Nafissa Collier.

That being said, we talk about the marketing of players and of cards, and it is undeniable that Caitlin Clark is the needle mover, the one that changes the reach of the WNBA and has changed the reach of the WNBA.

There is no denying that, and I'm not by any means, not saying that. That that is true.

But when we ask ourselves what needs to happen for another player in the WNBA besides Caitlin Clark to break through to people who are not already here in this WNBA segment, I think we need to start by looking inwards and looking at ourself and not to get too philosophical with you guys, but I do think it's important and I think it's because this isn't just about stat lines.

It's not. It's not just about on court performance.

It's also about the rhetoric that comes with it. And that includes the marketing and the reach. Because if it was just about stat lines, agent agent Wilson would be the best performing selling card in the WNBA space.

And we know that's not the not the truth. That's not what's happening in reality. So it's about how we, the people already in the WNBA card space, talk about the league and the card market around it.

And I want to bring up just, like, a simple analogy here to kind of make my point because it's it's very nuanced, I think. So think about it like this.

If I have a hobby friend who collects baseball, something that I know nothing about guys, like I don't know anything about baseball, and they tell me there's this new intriguing young player who's gonna come to the league and take over, their excitement gets me curious about cards.

It makes me wanna learn more. It makes me think, okay, maybe I could make a buck. Maybe I'd enjoy diving into this league. That kind of rhetoric in the way that they pose that is welcoming. It's inviting.

It makes me want to search more and dig in. But if they add in at the end of their little pitch to me that, yeah, this new kid is great, but everybody else in this league, they're just not it. It's not worth your time to look into them.

Suddenly, I'm out. There's no hook. There's no storyline. There's no reason for me to continue looking into this market because it's just not interesting to me. And that kind of rhetoric builds a wall.

It doesn't build a bridge for a new collector. And I think that's the whole point of this. And and I think on the last episode in tip-off, we touched on positivity on what separates the W community maybe from other lanes.

And I think that that's so important when we're talking about bringing in new collectors is the positivity of it all.

And if we want to grow this community of communities of of collectors, we want other players to break through into the community.

We have to make space for them in our narratives and in our rhetoric. We have to give them that time in that place. And we have to stop acting like it's Caitlin Clark on one side and everybody else on the other and you have to pick one.

That is not how it is. You can cheer for everybody if you want or you cannot cheer for everybody if you want. You can have a favorite player, but you've got to respect everybody else in the league.

So, like, that kind of division and rhetoric does not help the collectors and doesn't help the league. But that doesn't mean you can't claim Caitlin Clark is the best player.

You can say that and you can be semi correct. I can also disagree with you, but you can try you can you can make that argument. So my whole point here, and I know I'm kind of extending this a little bit.

I had a lot of notes about it, but it it's the main point to me is that we have to not pigeonhole new collectors by making them think the only option is Caitlin Clark or bust.

We can't welcome a new person in and put them into a box and say, if you wanna make money, the only player you have to invest in, quote unquote, is Caitlin Clark. That is not the truth. So to me, it's not just about who's playing well.

It's not just about the on court performance, but it's about how people like Brett and I and people that we talk to, talk about players and how collectors feel when they start to enter a new market and how we make them feel.

So that's a lot of jumble that I just put out there, Brett, but maybe if you were able to follow along, you could you could provide your your response to that kind of argument.

I I in doing this show, in starting this show, in coming up with this show and working with you on it, Caitlin, I have been intentional about not making this show the Caitlin Clark Exactly.

NBA card show. Although, this episode might be the most Caitlin Clark. A Clark episode. Ironically, it is the Caitlin Clark episode, but it took us to 11 episodes to get to that point.

And the reason for that is because if this were just the Caitlin Clark, card show, I don't think that has it's not interesting to me even though I'm a Caitlin Clark fan, and I just think there is so much more interesting topics to, talk about.

I think a lot of I a lot of what you said resonates with me. I think that one of these dynamics within collecting cards is that it's not all about accolades. It's not all about player performances.

It's not all about statistics. Like, if that were true, then, you know, you could look at nineties basketball cards and Mhmm. Under why, like, a certain player, it like, Penny Hardway is selling for what he's selling.

It's because he's Hardway catching a stray on the on the WNBA card fund right now? It's more of a positive because, like, he's remembered positively in the hearts and minds of, you know, people of my age demographic.

And I just think that I love you talking about the space and being open and accepting of just other players besides Caitlin Clark because I think that's important.

And if you're interested and you get into the category, understanding what's happening and who interests you is really important as well.

I think in this era of the Internet, social media collecting, what's really important is are these are these moments that happen on the floor that are the pattern interrupt for us when we're scrolling.

And for the benefit of Caitlin Clark on top of being a just insanely great basketball player and great shooter and all the things and all the narratives is that, like, she provides clip worthy moments every time she plays.

So every time she plays, there's something that goes on the Internet and spreads like wildfire, and WNBA fans and non WNBA fans see it and connect with it.

And then you go all through the process, and that ends in people wanting to buy her cards. Now she's not alone.

She's not the only one. There's so many more players. But I put this in the notes is that I've been trying to figure out what is it about Clark that allows her to be on this level of popularity that people connect with.

And we just talked about the fact that before this, and we'll maybe leave it for another episode, we were talking about player comps.

And we were talking about, you know, WNBA to NBA comps and, you know, the fun or not fun of going through that exercise.

But one of the things that I just continuously hear from individuals who aren't necessarily w collectors or w fans is they draw comparisons with Clark and Steph Curry.

Right? I mean, this game we're gonna talk about in a in a in a minute is the prime example. Right?

Steph Curry captured the hearts and minds of basketball fans and collectors because he was doing something on the floor that hadn't been seen before pulling up where he's pulling up and his consistency with the three ball for being the size he is.

And then kids were like, man, this guy I can relate with.

And so there's parallels there that I think other fans of basketball are drawing, between Curry and Clark, which might lead to people feeling like they can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on one of her rookie cards.

So, yeah, it's an interesting topic. I there's so many great players, and I think the w is getting better at promoting those players.

And so, yeah, I would just say, like, I don't know. It's it's hard to forecast. Okay. Now this player or this player is going to reach the magnitude of the Clark level.

I don't think that's, like, a game we wanna get into, but I do think, along with everything you said, the more, you know, collectors focus in on players that they love and try to translate that back with their collecting.

There's a lot of very accomplished, very fun, very clip worthy players that are currently playing that I would like to see get elevated. Maybe not to the tier of Clark in terms of market, but, you know, within striking distance.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with with everything that you said. She she is a generational player. You know what I mean? Like, it is so hard to compare others to her with her impact, and that I'll leave it there.

I just think she is one of a kind, and, I'm excited to see her back on the court. It was a a disservice to the WNBA community for her not to be playing. And, you know, it was a disservice to her team to not be playing.

I'm not saying not trying to insinuate blame at all. Just saying, like, it's not good for Caitlin Clark not to be playing basketball. She is one of one and we need her playing.

So, yeah. Like you said, I hope that the rise of Caitlin Clark I'm a firm believer that, you know, all rising rising tide raises all ships, and Caitlin Clark just happens to be the captain of it.

So I'm excited to watch for sure. I think we're we did say that this is the Caitlin Clark episode, so I think there's more Caitlin Clark to talk about.

Yeah. Let's do it. So let's hop into league talk. A lot happened in the headline from this week was the return of Caitlin Clark, much needed for the Indiana fever who had been struggling, a bit cohesion and win wise without her.

And Clark returned against the New York Liberty, the final, undefeated team in the WNBA, and she put up an impressive stat line to say the least.

She finished with 32 points including seven three pointers, eight rebounds, and nine assists. Impressive all around from any way you look at it, and then you put it against the backdrop of playing against, the New York Liberty.

I guess, Brett, as a Fever fan, I wanna hear from you. How did you feel watching this game? How do you feel about Clark's performance? It was so we've got this was a 03:00 tip, which isn't as a a dad of two small, kids, not prime time.

Although we, we got out in the morning. We actually we we celebrated, indie pride was happening. I took my family. We went there. Then I I told my wife, I said, hey. I gotta I gotta go watch this game.

Alright. I'll take my oldest to, go to this rock climbing. And so I had my youngest, and I was running back. And I was like, please just give me a little time. Take a little nap because it was nap time. And so I I queued up the game.

And, you know, naturally, you know, right when the game was tipping, she woke up woke up. Yeah. I brought her down. It's cute. She's one and a half, and she can say basketball, and she knows when basketball's on. So it was awesome.

And then also too, when my oldest got back in, this was like a proud dad moment. She walked in the house, looked up at the TV, and goes, dad, is Caitlin Clark on? And I said, she actually is playing today. So Sit down and take notes.

Yeah. Yeah. Take take notes. So we were I was you know, it was I was chasing kids. I was watching the game, and the the the threes the when the three threes happened that were just so absurd, it was like, oh my god.

There it is again. Oh, wow. There's another. And then by the third one, I just yelled at my wife. I was like, are are you seeing this? Are you seeing what she's doing? Because they were so out of control, and it was like, god.

I needed that back in my life. Like, I miss that so much. And so by the end of it, you know, being a Pacers fan in the the finals right now and the whole playoff run, it's just so stressful, so many close games.

And I had just come off of game four, being at game four of the finals where the Pacers choked it and gave it up in the fourth quarter.

And I was like, don't you do this to me again? And luckily, the fever saved the day. But my biggest takeaway was, man, this team couldn't look more different, and it's incredible what one player can do for a team.

And to me, it was just a reminder, this is why Caitlin Clark is so special. I would love, Caitlin, your reaction on her comeback, or I think it may be a bit better served to say state her statement, game in return.

Yeah. I mean, thank you, Caitlin Clark, for beating the Liberty. That's first of all. And I was, like, it's not often I root against a team, and I'm not trying to be like that.

But, you know, the Links lost their undefeated streak, and I did not want the Liberty to beat us in that streak. So I was very happy that Caitlin Clark put the nail in that coffin and ended it. And I I thought that was a huge statement.

Now I do I do think it was, like, this is my opinion. Without Caitlin Clark, I think the fever are just not a serious team. They're not competing at the same level at all, and I think that's intentional, obviously.

They built this entire franchise around Caitlin Clark, So when she's not there, they better not be doing very good. Otherwise, what's the point of having Caitlin Clark?

You know what I mean? So I was just very impressed by her performance. It's so hard to come off a break where you're not playing, especially due to an injury, put up nearly a triple double.

Okay, nearly. She's close to it. And with 32 points and seven threes was insane. I found it very impressive despite the fact I I gotta put it in there for our Liberty fans.

I know you guys are listening. You did have two of your starters missing. We will say that you still got beat. You still got beat by the Indiana fever on her first game back. So I was impressed.

And similar to you, I'll just put this little story in here. There's no other team besides my Minnesota Lynx, we just removed them. But when I watch them, I, like, physically jump out of my seat than the Indiana Fever.

Like, I'm like, oh my god. And it's like I feel physically moved to celebrate even though I have no, like, stock in the Indiana fever at all. They just get me so excited. Her threes are insane.

And I was just I was just so happy for the game for her to be back. Yeah. You know, you I've said this before, but it's I remember, we call it here in Indy, Peyton Manning's neck year where he was out, because of a neck injury.

And little did we know that he had already played his last game with the Colts. But when the Colts tried to operate operate without, Manning, it was an absolute disaster even though the surrounding pieces were all still there.

Yeah. Caitlin Clark reminds me of that, with the fever so much. But part of the game that got lost in the Caitlin Clark headlines was the fact that I was watching Sabrina play too because how could I not?

She was unbelievable. I I've watched a lot of Liberty this year, and, in terms of, like, her scoring and her picking up slack of some of those starters being out, I I felt like it was her strongest performance.

She had 34 points, four threes. And the whole time I'm watching this where, you know, they're trading threes back and forth and just such both of Clark and Sabrina.

It's just such great players. I just kept thinking, man, this would be a fun I know everyone wants to go Reese Clark, but, like, they're because of the history, their games are completely different.

Yeah. But I just think about, like, how Sabrina and, Caitlin, like, rivalry feud.

Them both rising to the occasion every time they played each other would be a lot of fun to watch. What what was your takeaway just from Sabrina and just thinking about Sabrina and Clark together?

Yeah. Sabrina has tainted me. So, like, I look at Sabrina differently after the finals last year, but she is truly a player that, like you said, rises to the occasion.

And this game was no different. Despite the loss, the impressive stat line, she made up for players that were missing, and she was shooting logo threes too.

So when we talk about a rivalry, I think, you know, the angel Clark the angel Caitlin rivalry is kind of this just media feud. It's not anything more than that.

Whereas if a Sab Caitlin, rivalry could be just like a shootout. Like, I think that that would be so fun if they could feed off the similarities in their game of being, sharpshooters that that could feed families.

And and it could feed families from an entertainment perspective, but it also could feed families from a collecting perspective.

I think that Sabrina's cards as being the the premier rookie to usher in the 2020 class have a lot of expectations baked into their prices.

I think that Sabrina needs to perform incredibly well to keep those up. She did that last year with a finals ring despite going what, like one for 19 from the field.

We won't. Sorry. I had to do it. But she did get a ring. And now if she continues playing at this level, I think her cards could massively also benefit from being in the Caitlin Clark of it all.

So I think that rivalry could be fun, but I'm not sure if it's realistic. The the two teams, despite, you know, this most recent matchup, the Liberty have kind of whooped their ass. Like, there haven't been much of a competition.

And I don't think Clark and Sabrina had any, if if any, overlap in college as well. And I'll just throw in JC Sheldon's name here. I had her in my notes. I think that that's click Caitlin Clark's rival.

Despite playing for, like, not a very good team, she is the one player that throughout her collegiate career gave Caitlin Clark kinda like this pesky defense and and really, like, forced her to get, upset and and kind of just, like, you know, out of her comfort zone.

So that would be my my take on rivalries.

But in general, I think this is my headline. Caitlin Clark doesn't need a rival. She did she's a rival to everybody. And I think we're kinda losing the script by trying to put like, pit her against different players for rivals.

And I think that Clark is one of those people that just anybody. Any game, any person, no matter who you are, you bet, rookie, anybody, it's it's it's gonna be a competition.

But I would love to see them play more. I'm talking about Sabrina and Clark and kind of, I would love to just see them go back and forth.

Three pointer, three pointer, three pointer, and, we could have a shootout. That would be super fun. I haven't even gotten to the point of thinking about the fact that and this is by no disrespect to Sabrina.

I'm I'm talking purely in terms of card prices. Sabrina is like the, junior varsity version of Caitlin Clark in terms of the card market for the w where she came in as a rookie during the launch of Prism.

There's been all of these expectations. She did win the finals. But when I'm buying cards and I look at Sabrina's stuff, I always get hit with, that's probably, like, 200, $300 more than I wanna spend.

I'll just go to another player who I think is probably more accomplished, whose prices are way cheaper. And I think that is one of the interesting dynamics.

And Clark is that on steroids with her prices, but I I I I think that's an interesting, thing to consider when you're comparing them in the the hobby is that Yeah. There are a lot of expectations still built into Sabrina's card prices.

Yeah. And I think it's important to call out that Clark prices wouldn't be able to go that high without Sabrina setting the stage in 2020 and really bringing the spotlight to WNBA cards, at least the the Panini era of cards.

So it's definitely interesting to compare the two, but like you said, yeah, I also don't find myself looking at Liberty cards too often, so I can't really comment on how the prices are.

But I I would say, like, Sabrina cards are certainly something I'm gonna keep an eye on, especially if she keeps up this kind of performance.

And I will finish off with one note on Sabrina because I know Caitlin Clark's kind of the the thread here. But I think Sabrina could benefit.

Like, she's kind of hidden in the super team of it all, where she's on liberty with Brianna Stewart, Jonquel Jones, Natasha Cloud. There's so many great players on one team that Sabrina kinda just gets dumped into that that grouping.

Whereas Caitlin Clark is the star of Indiana, like the whole state. And I think that that could be something there could be something there with the card prices.

You know what that reminded me of, Caitlin? It reminded me of the, like, the move that we just saw of Kelsey Plum leaving Las Vegas under the shadow of Asia Wilson, Jackie Young, and that unit.

And then going off where she's, like, the mama to all this really young team, but she's the star of the show now.

And what a way, like, she's in Los Angeles doing this. And and you wonder and sorry. I don't wanna give you Liberty fans, They're gonna like answer the anxiety.

Although, Caitlin, you probably wanna give the Liberty fans anxiety that what would happen if Sabrina played as the number one in one of these different markets?

Will we see that? I think a lot is going to be up for grabs here in the next year or so. So I'm not trying to speak that into existence, but it's certainly possible.

Yeah. We'll just we'll just leave it at that. We don't wanna get anybody too worked up over that that possibility. There's a big sale of a Caitlin Clark card I feel like we have to talk about.

Let's talk about it, Brett. Okay. So I mentioned earlier about the fact that there it seems like there's a couple different markets, the WNBA card market, and you've got the Caitlin Clark market.

And I say that based on the price of what we're of of these cards. So I'm gonna show a sale that happened this weekend. This is the two that 2024 Prism, Caitlin Clark card number one forty five.

This isn't the action shot. This is her, spinning the basketball with a one up, the photo shoot, her black finite one of one PSA nine sold for $274,500, which is absolutely My god.

Bonkers. You compare that same card. This we this is a thread we've been polygon, so I wanna bring it in. You compare and contrast that with her gold vinyl also in a PSA nine, and it sold for $1.

75 $6. 07 9. So it's this this data is telling me that the black finite if you're looking at the highest end of the market, the black finite is outperforming the gold vinyl.

I think I would need to do a big deep dive to see if that is true across other players, but it's fun when you have these debates on a show like this, and you're talking about the one of one lineage and legacy, and then you're seeing it play out, in auction form right now.

So, congrats, to the millionaire profits or the corporation, I guess. But I don't know. When you see this side by side, what what what do you have to say about it? Wow. I mean, I'm impressed.

I am also, like, personally in the Black Finite camp, but the delta of a $100,000 between the black finite and the gold vinyl when, you know, the variables of photo variation and grade are the same is astounding to me.

I didn't think it was gonna be that big of a difference between the two. But I think the re my, like I I'm just pontificating here.

But, like, my thoughts behind it is that this is first year black finite, whereas the gold vinyl has existed in the past. And now now we're kind of conflicting what we've said in the past, which is that legacy and lineage is king.

But now all of a sudden, it's legacy and and lineage of the parallel outside of the collecting lane, outside of the WNBA that's overruling the consistency of the gold vinyl in the WNBA Prism legacy.

So it's very confusing to me. I I say one thing and then I'm like, well, I just said the opposite, but I'm just so impressed by the sale.

This is, like, a lot of money. And, yeah. It's it'll be interesting to see has if the photo the non variation photo one comes up for sale, how that would also compare.

I would like to see a the 20 card 22 compare and contrast and see if we come to the same conclusions. I'll also leave listeners with a teaser here.

If you're interested on this topic, I there'll be a card ladder confidential episode that drops, next Tuesday, and I have a whole segment dedicated to the black finity of it all in other sports product or a parallel that really started with football, but, at the end of the license, we're seeing it in another sports.

I'd the I won't get into all of it here, but I I I do think there is the first year factor, but then also the the black finite, I believe, in this era is going to be the most memorable, most desirable parallel.

And and it's the the reason for that is we live in the sea of one of ones in the w, but anywhere else. The sea of it's a proliferation of one of ones in the Panini era. That would be a talking point I would hit hit big time.

But I think what it is about these is it's you you you hold them, you look at them, and they just they just hit different. And I think aesthetics really, really matter when it comes down to card prices.

So, anyways, that's a lot that's a lot of money, and it's insane. But I'm glad we got an opportunity to spend some time comparing and contrasting those two cards. Absolutely. Congrats to the winner. That's that's a crazy card.

Alright. Should we wrap up league talk? I know we made this kind of the Caitlin Clark episode. There were some other headlines to come out of the w. I'm just gonna go over them quickly before we move into product pulse.

But, you know, Angel Reese had her first career triple double, very impressive performance. The dream and the mercury are surprising. I think everybody with their impressive performances, in the league.

And then the rookie of the year, competition continues to heat up. Paige Becker's also comes back, puts up impressive numbers, Mystics are still continuing that engine driven by Akiki and Sonia.

So just a lot of things happening in the W. We're also in the midst of the commissioner's cup, which which ends on July 1. And, there's just a lot of stuff happening. We're we're in the in the thick of it for sure.

Just wanna say one thing on the rookie of the year front. Paige, front runner, I in your notes, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. I want I wanted to dig in and just see how far away, the next rookie was in terms of Paige's efficiency.

So, Paige's player efficiency rating at the time of recording is 21, and at 20. 2 is KiKi Irifin, which is like if you if you're stacking all of the players in the WNBA together, she's, like, maybe two away.

So she's right there. So I I think, like, it's pages to lose. We've talked about this so many times, but I think we're gonna get a fun a photo finish at least towards the end.

Oof. We look forward to it. We'll keep you guys updated as those things progress. And, yeah, like you said, the Washington Mystics, our league pass team putting up some fun performances led by KiKi.

So let's wrap up League Talk and move into product pulse. I'm really excited, to talk about this despite contrary belief. We are going to be talking about Brianna Stewart today. So Brett, why don't you lead us through, this segment?

Yeah. So we've done these player spotlights in the past, and I just felt like a good opportunity to talk about Stewie. When I dug into that question at the top regarding, like, what does a player have to do to kinda break through?

Stewie was the player that I just couldn't get out of my mind, and I couldn't get her out of my mind based on a lot of things, based on her longevity in the league, her off the court, stuff, whether it's, you know, unrivaled involvement, you name it.

And then most importantly, just like her championships. Like, she is the champion's champion. She doesn't lose, and she wins a lot.

So peeling off some of the accolades, three time WNBA champion, two times finals MVP, two times WNBA MVP, six time all star, four time NCAA national champion, which is, I think, one of the most absurd, accomplishments ever.

Literally, every year she was at Yukon, she won a national championship. She continues to do it. She, back to Clark. I'm gonna just continue to pull back to Clark because I haven't I've been restraining myself so much in the past.

Let it out. Right? Let it out. She had the interaction after the three in Stewie's face. And, like, Stewie wasn't, like, pissed off or didn't do this, but her and Caitlin had a smile, and it was very playful.

And I'm just like, this is why I watch this. It's like, this is why I watch these types of interactions, these types of moments.

So that hit me this weekend. But I just she is is decorated as it comes, and it's if if you are an outsider, if you're just getting involved in WNBA, WNBA collecting, she's like, all you have to do is just watch Stewie.

Watch Stewie, and you're gonna be really excited about just, the sport and, you know, her market.

And there's a lot of she she has a ton of cards. We're gonna highlight some of those cards, but I don't know. If we're doing a spotlight on Stewie here, Caitlin, what what kind of stuff comes to your mind?

What do you wanna bring up? I I just think the word winner. That's what I think of when I think of Stewie. She wins at all levels. I think when you said, like, four time national championship at the collegiate level, I like goosebumps.

Like, that is not normal. Like, that is, like, actually insane stuff that isn't talked about enough. And the fact that it's also carried out, it would be enough.

I think it would be enough. You win four at the collegiate level, you're in the conversation. But then to go to the the league and win at that level, not only with one team, but two teams, she's a winner.

She is decorated, like you said. And I think that, you know, there is no better leader, in the WNBA right now than Brianna Stewart. And I I just have to say this.

I'm taking off my links cap for this segment, folks. I'm gonna just put it away and talk about Stewie as unbiased as I can because she is a great player and she deserves me to be giving her her full respect throughout this.

So I just wanna put that forth. And I think that there's nobody else doing it like her for as long as she can. I think we we talked about Clark. We talked about Fee leading the MVP race this year.

And the fact that I I do wanna bring up like when we're comparing players and how impressive she is, she is beating out Aja in most of these winning categories. Well, Aja puts up a lot of very impressive individual statistics.

She also puts up a lot of good team statistics too. Stewie is a better winner in the long term right now, which I just think is crazy, to think about, especially because I think her cards are extremely undervalued.

And I know that's something that we're gonna get into here with her catalog. So, Brett, why don't you walk us through kind of, like, where Stewie's cards start and where we are now with Stewie cards?

Yeah. So we've got a rookie year in 2016. This is pre Panini. So you're getting her rookie cards in the Rittenhouse era of w collecting.

And then, obviously, you know, in Drafted by the Storm Panini era, she moves over to the Liberty. So you're getting multiple teams. You're getting multiple manufacturers.

You're getting a I I always hesitate. When I say a lot of cards of the w, I do it kinda tongue in cheek because there's not a lot of cards, but a lot of cards when you're crossing over multiple manufacturers.

I'm curious on your end, Caitlin. Like, what do you think that me like, does for a player in their overall collectability? Do you think it helps?

Hertz does nothing when you've got a player like Stewie who's maybe rookies are in Rittenhouse, but my favorite cards of hers are are in the Panini era prism stuff. Like, what what goes through your head when you see that with players?

Yeah. I think we kinda have to separate it between, like, Stewie and then, like, not Stewie. So, like, you have a player like Stewie who is winning, proven. She could stop playing and she'd still be good.

You know what I mean? In the eyes of collectors. So I think her magnitude because of Stewie's magnitude of impact on the game, I think it helps. It doesn't hurt. And I say that because collectors want to dig deep.

They want to learn more. They don't want an entire era of cards like Rittenhouse to be completely null and to not want to collect them. They want somebody to chase through those years. And Stewie is that player.

She is the premier rookie of the Rittenhouse era, in my opinion. And I think that, you know, because a player like Stewie is in that era, it it brings up and raises the Rittenhouse era, and gives it more credibility and recognition.

So I I do think that her stuff from the pre panini era is impressive.

It sets really good sales, but also it's the top of the Rittenhouse market as a whole. So I think it it helps her, but it may not help as much for less less like, just smaller players that aren't as big of a winner as Stewie.

So when I, led with the question at the top or you led with the question at the top about breaking through Mhmm.

Stewie, I mentioned, was the first player that I thought of. What what, like, what would Stewie have to do to maybe catch mainstream collector attention?

We just talked about all that she's done. Yeah. And everything. But, again, it's like, okay. Her cards aren't anywhere close in terms of market value to Caitlin Clark.

So is is there anything that she could do to kinda break through and reach that next level of interest? I I don't know what else people need. That my response was I my my response in the notes is you don't think Stewie is mainstream?

Question mark. And I say that because I see big YouTubers. I'm just gonna put it out there. Like, I watch content to learn more about cards, and it's also entertaining.

I'm I'm a cardboard collector. Like, I like to watch them. And so I was watching a card collector two video, and I've watched his videos for years. And he has picked up huge rookie Rittenhouse Stewie cards for a long time now.

And that's not that's I wouldn't say that's the norm, but he is a big main quote, unquote mainstream content creator who is buying those and giving them a platform.

So while she doesn't have the same numbers as Caitlin Clark, I do think Stewie is one of those players that if you ask a non w collector that they could kinda they get it.

They understand. And that's because of the backdrop of her winning.

So when you ask what else does she need to do, what else do you need? Like champion times four plus seven. Seven time champion through, college and the pros. I'm just not sure how much more hardware, you need.

And if if you need stuff beyond stats and accolades, how about she created a whole league? How about she's going to redefine the way that women's sports pay structures are created and handled?

How about she's a family oriented person off the court that you like? How about she's a leader? How about she plays for the biggest market in the WNBA?

How about the Liberty have were purchased in, what, 2018 or 02/2013? They were purchased for $10,000,000. Think about that. $10,000,000. That's what the Liberty purchased for. This year, they had a reevaluation.

Now their their valuation is $450,000,000 and projections show that they're going to be the first billion dollar sports women's sports franchise. What else do you need? That's I just throw it back at that.

Yeah. Great stuff. I love the, Ryan Johnson call out. I'm big big fan of Ryan, follow his content. And, yeah, I noticed you know, he does all the videos and buy and a lot of the stuff he's moving right to fund his business.

But then there's stuff he buys and, you know, he's just stashing it away. So it's fun to see kind of validation from someone like Ryan who knows cards and is buying Stewie stuff.

I guess if you're betting on the w category, does it make sense in your opinion? I think I know the answer to this, but to to bet on Stewie? Absolutely. Alright. Let's get into some of I don't know.

Dig into card ladder. Shout out card ladder, the official data provider of the WNBA card podcast. Dig into some of her biggest sales, and this is what I love about doing this stuff. This is her 2016 auto Rittenhouse rookie PSA 10.

Got the nice clean bold on card auto. Quite the photo. Yeah. Quite the photo. $4,800 for this card. We talked about all the accolades, but that just I I I share that example as a, like, this is a peak card for a lot of collectors.

And, again, like, you're you're spending a sub 5 k on it. Yes. That's expensive, but relative to other categories, it's nothing. Crazy. I this just seems like a bargain. That's all I have to say about it. We've got another Rittenhouse.

This is her rookie. I've meant to look at the pop on this. This is a pop this is crazy. This is a pop 35. This thing sold May 7. This is her card number 95 PSA 10 for 4,100, which is, like, that's pretty cool.

Like, you've got a card that's pop 35 PSA 10, and it's still selling for $4,100. Caitlin, my question to you on this card in, like, the written house stuff because it's a little bit uncharted foreign territory for me.

Who who is who is keeping the stuff afloat? Like, who is who is who's out there spending this kind of money on on a car?

Yeah. I they should come forward and tell us and try to sell them to me. I mean, I think that's the real the real thing here. No. But I'll say this. Like, you compare these two cards. Right? I much prefer the non auto version.

I mean, like and I think it's interesting because you have on card autos with some interesting draft night photos, and now you have the classic Stewie hand guide hand on top of the ball on fully on top of the ball shooting.

And PSA 10, I just it's very interesting. Like like you said, this is uncharted territory for a lot of new collectors, but I think once you start digging in, it becomes more and more of a bargain.

Like, you look at the equivalence of this in other sports and you look back on, you know, how condition sensitive Rittenhouse is. I just think this is crazy for one of the premier winners of our generation.

Okay. I'm gonna hit one more card and the it's a punctuation point. I had a couple, but just wanna end with one because can you recall, Caitlin, that black finite, the Caitlin Clark that we talked about?

Do you remember what it sold for? $274,500. That's that's exactly right. Alright. Here's the Stewie. The Stewie sold for 2,800.

Okay? This card sold for $20,100. Golden auction, May 22. I'm pissed off because I didn't know it was freaking there, and I should've just checked Golden. And now it's relisted on eBay for, you know, you know, the game.

I'm not even gonna get into it. But, I mean, all she's done, $2,800, $2. 74 on the Clark, there seems to be a pretty big gap there. That's kind of a big gap. That's kind of a big gap.

And, yeah, this is this seems like a good deal. I will say that. But, yeah, just impressive to me that we can still get great cards of great players for under $3,000. Like, what a what a gift that is in its own right, you know?

No doubt. Alright. Stewie, you're a really good player. I like your cards. It was fun to talk about you. Yeah. And now we're gonna not talk about Stewie for a long time because that was kinda painful for me.

But Did you pick up a card this week? Guys, two weeks in a row, I have picked up a card. I am so happy to share that. And we're going with another Yukon player. We're we're we started with Stewie.

Now we're gonna go to my pickup, which is Brett sharing it on the screen for everybody. This is 2024 Topps Chrome McDonald's All American. Sarah Strong. Game used patch auto out of '25. This card, I think there's a lot going on.

If you're not looking at it, it's like the tie dye technically parallel. So it's got a lot of colors. It's very bright, massive patch window with three colors really chunky, a strong bold blue auto.

And I really do wanna emphasize that game used part because when you turn it well, well, when you look on the bottom, it says game used memorabilia, and then you turn it on its back.

And I've got it here, and it says the memorabilia contained in this card is a game used piece of uniform from the official McDonald's All American game from the featured athlete.

In the era of not many game used cards, that language makes me very happy. And it's pretty cool that I can say I'm holding a piece of Sarah Strong history because I think she's going to be very good.

So this was an exciting pickup for me. It's going in the pile that I like to call night not for sale at this point in time, but maybe in the future.

And just excited to to be picking up, technically, not a WNBA card, but, future star of the WNBA, in my opinion. When you said you think she's gonna be very good, I just wanted to interrupt you and ask you a question back.

You think? Very cool player. Cool card. Yes. One thing we can celebrate with new top stuff, and hopefully, this is something that continues the trend is the game views of it all.

I know that's something collectors have been dying for. I don't have a new pickup. However, I have a recent submission, so this just popped.

I and I I I talked about selling my Select Gold Vinyl, one of one, Aliyah Boston, to a collector last week. A big reason why I was able to stomach that is because of this card. So this is the Aliyah Boston Black Finite.

I just got it graded, came back a PSA eight, which, you know, is isn't bad for this year of prism. It just seems like everything that gets sent in from this year, it doesn't get much love based on just the way these were printed.

But I love black finites. I also shared I love the white fever jersey, and I think it just looks so good with the light jersey and the black finite in the back. This I'm I'm, like, keep looking.

I'm like, alright. When are you shipping this out? It's like doing the final quality, you know, assurance. I'm like, give me this card. I need this card. So I'm I'm waiting to get this one back, but happy that the gray just popped.

That's awesome. This looks great in that slab too. The red really bounces off the the label with the mix of the the fever logo. So congrats on that. I know I know it's not a 10, but an eight's pretty good.

I'm I'm not upset with an eight. I I take anything with a with a black Finite. Absolutely. Well, let's move on from ours from our own pickups, to my favorite segment each week, which is collector spotlight.

And I'm super excited about this this week's pick. This is at j red chicago on Instagram, and I have to give a secondary shout out to at kyle underscore collects for nominating this person for collector of the week.

They have under 300 followers, which I think is a disservice. Everybody needs to go look at Josh's page and take a look at his very Clark heavy collection, but there's some other things sprinkled in here.

He's got a lot of other young and up and coming, WNBA and NCAA stars like Angel Reese, Cameron Brink, Paige Beckers, Juju Watkins, and of course, Sarah Strong.

There's also some other nice diversity outside of the WNBA with some men's basketball and some soccer cards.

But I think the main attraction here is, you know, this was kind of the Caitlin Clark episode. There's a lot of good Caitlin Clark here.

I'll call out, my favorite card, which is the one of one inception. I think Josh has the entire rainbow somewhere on his page, which I just think is so impressive. But, yeah, just scroll and scroll, and you'll see a lot of cool stuff.

Yeah. This is cool. I always love following new pages. Unfamiliar with this page, j red Chicago. I smash follow, and you all should too. Awesome. Thanks for sharing those, and we look forward to see what else you pick up.

So let's move on. The final segment round us out here with some buzzer beaters. Last week, I solicited questions on at w m b a card pawn on Instagram, And we got so many questions that we didn't get to them all this, last week.

So we're gonna answer a few of them that maybe we didn't get to that fell through the cracks. And we've got three main questions, to go with. And I'm really excited about these three.

We've got three, different they're just all very different. So we'll start out with, if you don't mind, we'll start out with my my personal favorite this week, which is at m j s underscore sports cards.

He asks quite a long question here, so so bear with me. As someone that collects both men's and women's basketball cards, one of the biggest differences I've seen is the role that colleges play in the w fandom.

I wonder how you think this will translate to cards. In men's basketball, the general expectation is that non pro uniform cards will go down in value no matter what.

Do you think that college cards of athletes like Paige, Clark, and Angel will follow that same pattern, correlate more closely to their pro cards, or perhaps even outperform their pro cards?

I this is a great question. Shout out. This is really good because I've been thinking about this a lot just, like, on my own.

And I can share just, like, personal experience on my end is that, number one, I think women's college basketball cards generally will have more interest than probably men's long term just based on the duration that these players play in these programs.

It's not there's there's there's no one and done.

Right? It's these players are playing, you know, three, a lot of cases, four years, opportunity to build connections with that fan base, wherein men's, it especially in the NIL era, it seems very more transactional. So that's a point.

I think the other point I have observed about my own collecting is that I like to buy and own college cards, but it's almost better for me when they're playing and playing in college because I view it more like prospecting.

It's like a it gives me that prospecting itch a little bit that I don't really lean into. And so I become, I think, less interested once the player reaches the w.

And if I've had a card in the past, maybe I'm more likely to sell it. And so that's just my general feelings regarding the personal feelings and just some general observations that I've made.

But final final is that I think they're they're building more of a a product structure around kind of this segment with, you know, Bowman University that, leads to probably more sustainability than what existed in the past.

Couldn't agree more. And you talk about, like, the prospecting itch, and we talked a lot about Stewie in today's episode.

And I just think what if, like, Bowman Yu existed when Stewie was in college and she wins her first national championship as a freshman?

You're like, oh my god, this is crazy I just made so much money and then she does it again and you're like, oh my god She did it again back to back and then she does it again and then it's like she three peated and then you're like, holy shit She did it again like every single time I just imagine what would happen if that happened today, which spoiler alert I think it might with Sarah strong Play here folks, but just think about I just think about that when we talk about collegiate cards It's like all these players who had impressive collegiate performances that didn't get that opportunity to collect their cards then, and we do now.

I just think it's very that's just a thought.

But to answer at m j s underscore sports cards question, I think that there's just less of a gap between the pro and the college cards for women's cards in general because pro sports weren't taken as seriously in the mainstream, until recently, whereas collegiate has always kind of been respected at a more equal level to the men's game.

So that's kind of my my more like thought out response, but, I just think it's really exciting. I really like the collegiate cards.

I collect a lot of the bow menu of players that are now in the w that have pro uniforms, and I still go for their college cards. So, I think it's definitely something unique to the to the women's basketball space.

Awesome. Yes. I I love the question. Great question. Alright. Question number two. Brett, this is for you and you only. And this comes from at john cat underscore cards. Brett, who is your all time Notre Dame starting five?

So I sometimes I don't look at the questions in advance, but I saw my name. So I looked at it, and then I started getting, like, very anxious. And I was trying to figure this out without anything, and, my brain started wondering.

And so I spent probably, like, ten minutes trying to figure out where what direction that I wanted. Yes. It's there's a lot of good players, and I'll also say this.

I it I did not follow Notre Dame women's basketball, before, like, 2016, 2017. So there's a lot of years that I just didn't even take into consideration because I wasn't, watching regularly.

So with that being said, I one rule that I make when I do these sorts of lists is I don't do positions. It's just, like, five players. So I'm I'm not like Oh, this could be all of guards. Is that what you're saying?

Very much. So I'd be reaching if it wasn't all guards. So or, so this is the list I have, and I don't like, I I feel okay about it. But Okay. Wait. Before you before you read it out, I also made a list as a non Notre Dame fan.

So I'm I'm waiting here. First. I wanna hear you. First? Yes. Yes. Okay. I'll go in order of my ranking. I I by the way, I put this on a sticky note, so by the end of it, I can Oh, same. I've got it right here.

Okay. Cool. Okay. Ready? Yeah. Enrique, SDS, Skyler Diggins. Well, Scott SD, Skyler Diggins, K Mac, Jayo Mabry. Is it the same? It's I put Jewel Lloyd instead of Mabry, but Mabry, it was I was debating between both of them.

Fair enough. Wow. I'm impressed, first of all, that we went four for five. And please, I think this is an opportunity. Why Jewel Lloyd over Mabry? Oh, I I don't even I I'm not even sure.

That's just where I landed. It Okay. I like them. It's like it was like picking a kid. I like them both about the same. I will say, like, in my ranking, when I close my eyes and I think of Notre Dame women's basketball, Enrique is Yes.

Like, that's she's my goat. So, like, it's her, and then it's everybody else is how I think about it. Okay. Fair enough. Well, I was excited that I got to be included in that question even though I'm not an Notre Dame fan.

So thank you at john cat underscore cards. That was a fun one. Let's move on to our third and final question to round us out here. This is from at m k underscore sports guard.

Who's your most improved player this year, and why is it Kayla Thornton? I love the matter of factness here. Brett, why don't you elaborate here on why it's Kayla Thornton? Or if you have a counterargument, who your player is.

I actually do have a counterargument, although Kayla Thornton is certainly in the conversation. I I think it's, again, we spent all last week, like, glorifying, the Valkyries and just the whole, you know, rollout and everything.

But I think when you when you get a player from a championship team, then that goes over to the expansion.

It's there's just some juice behind it. So I think there that is certainly a good pick. My pick, however, right now and this is I'm gonna be nerdy and bring up some stats.

I'm I'm she's been talked about, but Alicia Gray and this is why. So for her career, she's averaging 13 points a game, four rebounds a game, two assists per game, and 1. 2 steals.

This year, 21 points a game. So that's seven more points than her career average. Five rebounds a game, one more rebound, four, 4. 5 assists per game, which is two more assists in our career numbers, and her steals per game is the same.

Like, that is crazy to be like, it shows the system she's in is a perfect fit for her. But, yeah, when when I see, like, the stats rise and also the team is rising, she's my pick.

I think that she is the okay. I'm gonna about to say something crazy. Like, between the MVP race right now, Fia is leading it, and Gray is nowhere near the top of the list of odds.

And I think that just doesn't make any sense. I think her odds are plus 25,000 for MVP right now, and she is playing at an MVP level.

She is, and she's winning. So I just think that that's that's a great pick, Brett. I did not have her on my list of counterarguments to at m k underscore sports cards.

I proposed two other names, that are objectively not playing as well as, Alicia Gray, but still improved a lot from last season, which is Kate Martin, her teammate.

I think that Kate Martin has been playing very well. She has almost, I think, zero expectations for how well she needs to be playing.

And she is winning on the on that expansion team thanks to Kayla Thornton, of course. But just, you know, she's the face of that team and she's putting up shots and she's making them.

So that would be my first pick. And my second pick would be Brittney Sykes of the Washington Mystics. She is playing probably her best year of basketball at 31 years old with a team of very young rookies.

We mentioned Kiki and Sonya. But I think that if she can stay healthy, she's definitely putting a name out there for that most improved race for sure. I I love all of these names. Big Britney Sykes fan. I've always liked her this year.

I think she's shining. So it's fun to talk about these awards, this early, and I'm sure we'll bring it up again. This was a fun episode. It was. That was a good one. Episode 11 in the books. I I can't believe we get to say that.

I think we planned 12 episodes, so next week should be a fun one for sure. Yeah. We'll party. Make sure you follow, WNBA card pod on Instagram. For sure. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We'll see you next week.