Alright, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Smashing Ben. Excited for today's chat. Been wanting to have a conversation with today's guest for quite some time. I felt like this was a pretty good format.

There's a cool card that he has as a reference point, that we're gonna dig into, which is near and dear to my heart. I'm joined by Kevin, who goes by Kevin m Cormier, on Instagram. Kevin, welcome.

How are you? Doing well. Thanks for the invitation. Yes, sir. I gotta ask you ahead of this, maybe getting in a little WNBA conversation because I don't really get a chance to do this with too many people outside of, Caitlin.

This season for you, I know you're, you go to the Sun games, Sun season tigger holder, I believe.

I know it's maybe not the most exciting, time to be a Sun fan with all the transition, but what what has it been like for you just going to the games, the vibe, the teams you're playing?

Like, when you go in there, like, what are your expectations? Yeah. I mean, this year, it is very much about watching who comes in and, seeing the talent from around the league.

I appreciate the effort that Connecticut's putting in, because I do believe, you know, you you watch a couple of these players who they may be playing for, you know, a a contract somewhere else or, you know, when they do decide to do the full rebuild, if they'll they're here or not.

The coach is terrible, so there's a lot of that going on. But, you know, it it's it's a good time. I mean, the the the fans I gotta say, even with the talk around, you know, possibly selling the team and all that stuff.

I mean, the the the fans down there, and again, this is my first year as a season ticket holder that these long time fans that they're into it, they're dedicated.

And, so, you know, sorry that they're suffering through this year, but, you know, they're they're they'll stick with them through thick and thin.

How how big of a role has just the, you know, women's basketball hotbed that is Yukon played a role in just like the growth and the the just the fan base around the sun.

Like, do the do those I would imagine those two kind of audiences intersect quite a bit.

Oh, yeah. If you if there's any former Yukon players coming in on a on a visiting team, you'll see their jerseys, their their T shirts. There's there's a lot of that.

So, you know, it'll it'll sell out the page game. Even last year, I went to a Seattle game and, you know, the amount of I didn't know they made Nikka Mule con Yukon jerseys, but I saw, you know, probably 30 of them.

So so that's definitely, a Venn diagram with a little bit of crossover. Awesome.

And then, maybe you're just getting since we're gonna tee up your card here in a minute, but just getting into, WNBA collecting, I think you I don't think I know you have been someone who's been in the community collecting WNBA cards for far longer than I I have been, and I know there's definitely been some, you know, there's been some growth, new entry points, obviously, a lot of tension on specific players.

What what has been your observation from, like, when you started collecting, WNBA to kind of what's what you're seeing now?

I I think for we'll probably talk talk about a little bit more as as we go through this, but there's there's been good and bad parallels with the hobby as, you know, at on a broader sense that have leaked into, the WNBA.

I mean, it's nice to be able to find cards now, which is, you know, something that I I I jumped in 2020.

I I was part of the Sabrina hype train getting in, but, I I when I opened my first box and I was looking through them, I was like, oh, yeah.

I really like Skyler Dickens. I forgot that, you know, I didn't I didn't associate the fact that I could collect her because it wasn't really on my mind. And so when I saw her cards, I was like, oh, okay.

Well, that's that's the direction I'm gonna go. And so, you know, the the star players were easy to find. The the the middle tier players that didn't really necessarily have the, exposure were a little tougher to find.

And if you just like the fan favorite, I mean, good luck to you. You you had to hope that somebody has busted a bunch of things and just put them in a dollar box, and you happen to be there that day.

So, the growth from that, aspect has been nice to be able to actually go to shows, look through boxes, find cards, you know, have saved searches that things pop up, you know, on a every two, three hours basis that that really didn't happen before.

So that's I mean, those are all positives. Do what would you, in terms of maybe product that you enjoy the most?

I know what I like about your pages. I'd a lot of times, I'm introduced to, whether it's w collecting or other stuff, a a lot of different, parallels and sets and cards that maybe I don't have my attention on.

Is there a in in w collecting, is there a specific product that you maybe enjoy more than others? I mean, this is only so many that you really have to choose from.

I I really do like 22 revolution, building the lava set out of 10. So that that's probably one of my favorite ones so far. The one we'll talk about today is probably up there as well.

But, yeah, I mean, it's it's Prism. It's select. It's it's the same stuff. So there's not a whole lot of different there, but, I I do like to find those little niches where I can. I've been following your lava build out.

Why why lava, and how is that project going for you? It seemed easier when I started. I was like, well, it's out of 10. And I know people do this out of, like, prism golds and, you know, and other things.

And I found a bunch of them right away. I think I'm stuck on about 22 out of the 100 right now, but I was able to pick off some of the big ones early. Like, I got Asia early.

I got the Visa early. So once I started to get once I got those for, you know, early on decent prices, then I was like, you know, there's only gonna be a couple here that are gonna be really challenges as far as the wallet goes.

It's just gonna be, do they pop up? And so it's it's you know, I my my Google Sheet is full of these sort of long term projects, so it's just another one to add to the list. Okay.

We're about to get to your card, but I maybe because I view you as a collector who has, like, a lot of stuff going on, a lot of interests, a lot of projects, maybe tee up for the audience who might not know you or what you collect kind of what are the lanes that we've talked about the w, but, like, what are the other lanes that, occupy your time?

I mean, I like, I don't wanna call them obscure set builds, but they're ones that you don't find.

There was a, set in the in the 2001 Fleer product that went across football, basketball, and baseball called nameplates. They look like license plates with pieces of actual nameplate patch. And so I've been trying to build those.

I'm at, like, 70 something percent of all of those, but those just don't show up. I love Xfractors. There was a Bowman Chrome hockey product one year in 02/2003, so I'm trying to build that Xfractors set.

Again, I'm, like, 80%, but not you know, they're the the autos are out of 25, so those are are a lot tougher to come by. It's just things like that. It's like, oh, cool. I like this.

Let me see if I can get all of them. Like, you know, the in in soccer, there was a prize footballers insert in, the finest set. And, you know, the first year is, like, I built all of them in PSA tens that exist for PSA tens.

There's one that doesn't have one. So I have a one PSA nine, but, yeah. I mean, just I I get I get, like, wrapped up into something and just kinda keep going.

And then till but until I almost finish it, and then I find something else. Okay. Your philosophy regarding the BIN smash, are you more of a buy it now, purchaser, more auction format, or it doesn't matter?

It it really varies by price point. I do like, it was James Metziti who mentioned the the counter smash, which is usually my go to. I will buy this at any counter offer you send me.

But for this particular one, I went with, what I refer to as the wax museum bin smash because I I've done this, but I've heard Kyle talk about this, which is I sent an offer and I waited ten minutes.

And when I didn't hear back in ten minutes, then I hit then I hit bin.

And that's also fairly common on you know? I mean, if it's a $15 card, then I'll just hit I'll just hit Ben. I don't care. I mean, it's worth it's worth my time to pay the 15 then make an offer of 12.

You know? It's there's at some point, there's a there's a cost ratio to the time that it takes. But when it gets up to some of the bigger cards, it's like, well, you put offer on it, so I'm gonna try it.

And then do I trust that somebody else isn't gonna hit it? And so like I said, so the the Kyle thing is, like, just put the timer on. I don't hear back in ten minutes and final hit it.

I I love this is gonna be fun. Maybe before the counter. I I like this thread because I know we brought it up, but I was just in a, an instance this past week where there's a card popped up that I really liked.

I made an offer, and I was just waiting. And then I waited enough that it got a counter, but still there was probably, like, $50. 50 to $60 that I felt like it was I should I should counter back, but also I didn't wanna lose the card.

So I ended up just going with it, which it was like, I'm okay with it now because I got the card, and I'm not worried about the the cash.

But you said, like, when when someone, you know, gives you a counter, typically, you're responding to that.

What what do you think that says about just, like, your overall, like, collecting philosophy or just the, you know, the psychology behind it?

I mean, I I kinda said, like, I I value my time. Right? And so I can get in a prolonged back and forth with the seller on eBay for two days while we try and figure out a middle ground.

But in the meantime, you know, I got other things I wanna think about. You know, is it since I am absolutely terrible at buying cards to resell, I'm gonna lose money if I resells anyway.

It doesn't matter really at that point. Like, I'm not buying, like, a smart re you know, like, something to put on my table and to show to to resell and make profits.

I'm I'm horrible at that. So if I'm I'm buying something that's for my personal collection three years from now, if I overpaid by $40, like, I don't really care.

I love it. Alright. Let's get into this card. Pulling it up on the screen. We've got the twenty twenty four origins, which is a set we didn't talk about, but has WNBA cards.

Caitlin Clark, rookie, swirl. So, Kevin, I probably out of all of the WNBA cards that I've bought and collected, I have never purchased a a a card from Origins.

But I look at this card, I'm like, this is a pretty good looking card. So why don't you take us into, why this card matters, why you smash bin the whole story. I'll just let you run with it, and I'll jump in, if I have any questions.

Cool. Yeah. And, I'm one of those people where, like, there's there's the the the common sort of, wisdom of, like, the more you have to explain a card, the harder it is to sell it, blah blah blah.

I'm the other way. The more I have to explain a card, the more I want it. I want the story. I wanna know why I mean, because I'm a I'm a college radio kid.

Like, I I like the indie stuff. I like the obscure stuff. I like, you know, having some sort of story behind it. So when origins released and, was this October? And there's only, like, one week before Select came out.

So, like, origin was its own product for, like, six days or something like this. And so when I was going through my Skyler searches, the swirl came up, and it's early in the product release. You know, no one really knows.

But it's saying this is an unnumbered parallel that the eBay listing said it's a case. Okay. Maybe it is. Maybe this I don't know. Right? I didn't you who knows at this point with with Panini? So but it was, like, $30, so I bought it.

But then I noticed none were coming up. And, like, for a while, like, I did not see another one. So I I so I didn't know if I overpaid or underpaid, but I started to look at this go. And I had it in hand.

I was like, this car is really cool, and I don't see them very often. So it kind of just went in the back of my head. And then we had a local show around here in April, and I found on a table somebody had Rekia Jackson.

And again, it was like $30. So, like, yeah, this is really cool looking card. This is a rookie, you know, don't don't really know too much about it, you know, as far as production wise, but let me pick that one up.

So when I got home and I started looking, and this is let's go. This is April. This is six months after release. PSA had graded a total of 15 of these across all players.

So, like, so this is not coming up very often. And I looked at so I was like, well, what's Caitlin? Because, basically if there's something is unnumbered or you don't understand a print, right?

I mean, everybody's grading all of her stuff. So she must have the most graded out of anybody. How many does she have? And at the time she had two, a third one has popped up since then.

I'm like, okay, so in six months, two of these have made it to PSA. That's something that I really wanna, like, pay attention to is I wanted to get one nice Caitlin Clark card for coming into this season.

Right? I'm not gonna collect her, you know, more broadly, but I wanted one. I was originally planning on building the prism blue set for the year, and then her prism blue cards were insane for a for a card number out of one ninety nine.

I was like, I'm not paying, you know, $1,700 for a blue prism. Like so I ended up starting to build the blue velocity set because it's cheaper.

But I said, let me keep an eye on this. So I started to save search for just Caitlin Court Clark's swirl. Because if you type in origins, like, everything comes up.

Like, the eBay search function for origins is terrible. So I just sit there, you know, and then a couple weeks later, one popped up and I said so it showed up. It was $8. 50 or best offer. So I did that. They said, oh, I'll offer $7.

50 and then later ten minutes and hit the hit the $8. 50. So I was like, alright. That's cool. Like, you know, that's less than a blue prism was going for at the time for a card that it looks like this popped two nines.

There's no tens. So it seems like it's pretty rare. Then I look at some of her other you know, I get I get curious about this stuff.

I'm a data guy. Her cherry blossom prism with a print run of 20 that's that's stated has eight PSA nines. Last one sold for $6,000. I was like, wait a minute.

This is seven and a half times. The the this makes absolutely no sense. So, you know, I'm happy to have it. I'm happy to own it. Like and for about a brief second, I thought about, well, maybe now that I have her, I do the swirl set.

I'm like, that's not gonna happen. I have too many other projects, but, it really is something that that I thought that this was gonna be.

And I bought this like a week before the season started. So, and you and I had talked, like, privately just about, you know, the fever moves in general and and how I thought she still had some questions to answer this year.

I thought that the coach change was gonna help her because I thought she had no, benefit of the of your coach from last year.

So I was like, these cards her cards aren't going down. Like, if I'm gonna get in, I'm gonna get in now before she takes this next level. And so, yeah, I mean, it's it became something that was, alright, cool.

And I'm good. This this is my one Caitlin Clark and Caitlin Clark card, and I'm happy with it. There's so much to unpack there. First first question I have is regarding the, the aesthetic of these and, like, what these are like in hand.

Like, how would you describe the appearance of these, like, now that you've owned a few of them? It's really interesting because it is a a a paper based card, and it has these these swirl lines of of hollow foil.

And they do look much better in hand than on a on a scan because they you know, you you you bend it back and forth, and they they bounce the light differently.

So they they really are. And I know you you had that recent, with Christian John Saba first. This is technically again, it came out a week before select. This is her first rookie card if you really wanna go chronologically.

Yeah. Origins was first. So all of those things went into it. But the problem, that and I didn't realize this until I was putting together the Skyler set is there was an unnumbered parallel last year in origins called rainbow.

And I didn't even know that that existed. I had thought I had finished Skyler's rainbow, and then another Skyler Clay was like, actually, you're missing one.

I have it. And and I ended up, Andrew, so coolie cards, who's been great to me with the Skyler stuff, sent it to me. And there's a very, like, slight difference of coloring in the bottom right corner.

And if you don't know and and the, like, the the nameplate is gold instead of, silver. But if you're just flipping through quickly, you have no idea. This I like because it stands out. Like, this card is different.

Notice me. And so that that's why I really like what they did with this year as opposed to last year. Okay. So I love the setup on Origins where it came out, before Select, but then, you know, Select pretty much buried it.

I forgot how close those releases were. So it's in a way, it's kind of weird calling, Kate, like, any Caitlin Clark card, like, underground, especially with this many, sets.

But in a way, like, if you if people are thinking about Caitlin Clark cards right now, they're likely the first card that comes to their mind isn't the origins card.

Based on, like, you know, we've talked about music and what you like and, you know, call you mentioned college radio. You're more of, like, a supporter of kinda, like, the the up and coming or the lesser known.

It do you it do you draw any correlations with just what you support and typically what you're about, in relation to just, like, a card like this that sure.

Maybe people know that there's a Caitlin Clark origins card, but I haven't met any too many people that are, like, besides you that have really talked about this lesser known Caitlin Clark card that's actually rare and scarce.

Yeah. And and I think because I think it's the timing that did all of it. I think if this had had some time to breathe, if Fanini had an actual, you know, head on their shoulders making a release calendar, you might see that.

Also, I mean, origins as a product isn't very good because it's a product that screens for on guard autographs.

They don't have any. All of the the relics are nonassociated, so people don't care. So it's very easy to dismiss origins as a whole and rightfully so. I mean, again, I look at this and go, you could do so much more with this set.

You're only putting out three sets. You have the time. You have the resources. You know, why the hell is this what came out? So it's like I said, it's it's it's super easy for for me to understand why other people overlook this.

But I don't know. I just looked at it, and I just it just hit me, you know, again, some of the other ones that I have. I think I have, like, 10 of these now. They just in my hand, you know what? This is actually pretty freaking cool.

Now let's see where we can go with this. How often does that happen where you are, a a specific parallel, catches your attention enough that you start buying players outside of your primary PC players.

Like, you started with the Skyler, but then you, you know, saw the card and you started to understand maybe these are based on your research, you know, not as, available as maybe some would think.

Like, how often does that happen to you in your collecting where you spot something you like and you you kinda spread your wings and go to different players?

Not that often. I'm more drawn to and, again, as a as a as a math guy, I I love jersey number parallels.

So that's my that that's one of the things that I I look at. So I'll I will buy random players at jersey number parallels because that speaks to me just, you know, numerically.

Color matches are always fun. But, yeah, I mean, this is really the first time that I went really out there with something in in this way.

I mean, I'll pick up anything for, you know, $10, whatever. Like, there's a $19. 98 leaf, rookies and stars as a longevity parallel out of 50, which has these, kind of hollow foil embossed, team logos in the background.

And, you know, I I saw one, a common one at the shows. Like, that's kinda cool, and then that's why I bought Pedro Martinez because, you know, Pedro Martinez in 1998 was, you know, herculean. So I just like having that in my collection.

I don't and I have, like, a Tony Gonzalez, but that's it. Like, I don't have, like, that was I just got the player I want in this cool card, and it's in a box, and it'll it'll stay there for me to look at every once in a while.

But like I said, as I have so many of these unfinished product projects going on that it's it's I try to stop myself from doing this because it very easily can turn me into, alright. Let's see if I can get all of them.

Yeah. Alright. You said something that resonated with me where you were like, you know, this this card is, like, my one Caitlin Clark card, like, in you know, based on, you know, I would imagine the price and everybody, the attention.

Like, I've thought that a lot about her and, you know, collecting her cards, and it's like yeah.

Because it's so crazy, like, just having one card that you really like, sometimes that can be pretty satisfying and allows you to just, like, instead of, like, chasing many, many more and going through that rigmarole, you can just actually, like, take a step back and appreciate that one card that you have.

Is is that mindset of just, like, having one card of one player, a new mindset for you?

Maybe just talk a little bit about that with this Clark card. No. No. I've done that a few times, but the problem is is then they begin become easy to move, because it's, like, it's not tied to anything else.

And even with the with the Clark, one of the one of the first ones after I decided that the that blue prism was too much is I have a the light blue Angel Reese select PSA 10.

And I was like, maybe I'll get the the Clark to pair with it because that way, I have these two rookies from this year.

You know, they're they're gonna be linked throughout the rest of their time in this league. That's actually that card is actually more than this one, which is great. It's a hook number to a 125 select.

It's not prism, and it was more than than this card was. And so, you know, sometimes the the price just makes your mind up for you. You know? It's like, you know, what what's good is what else can I do as an opportunity cost? Cost?

What else could I do with that amount of money? That makes a ton of sense. This card is is certainly cool. Obviously, I'm a fan. You know, I got the news as we're recording this that she's not playing tonight, which is a total bummer.

Definitely, puts, puts a damper on things. We'll we'll see how that goes. I'm not I'm not overly optimistic against the links without Caitlin Clark tonight.

But, regardless, we gotta spend today talking about this cool card. I wanna move over to some other cards and, just for a variety of reasons that I spotted Ben Smashes.

And I know you don't collect or do you do you collect John Quill Jones because she had some time? You know? Is there any overlap? I don't. Only because, Steve, Sholley, he gets a lot of the more.

So I usually list just send him, like, coolest things that I see. But I I really did. I I did go to a few games while she was still in Connecticut, and and she is a lot of fun to watch.

Yeah. Totally. I'm I miss what she is one of my favorite, players to watch, and I just really enjoy I I would tune into the Liberty to watch her, and it sucks that she's hurt right up, but all my favorite players are hurt right now.

It sucks. Yeah. But this card, it's the 24 select, John Cole Jones black finite on May 23.

Someone smashed Ben on this for $400. And, Kevin, why I wanted to talk with you about this card is, for a few reasons. But one specifically is you've got the black finite in select, and you've got the different levels.

And you've got a player of the caliber, of John Paul Jones, which for anyone who's listening, who's not tuned in the WNBA, she was the MVP of of the finals last year.

So you look at a $400 price tag, which, you know, I'm not pooh poohing on $400. $400 is is is a good chunk of change, but relative to other categories, it it seems like a a steal.

Do you feel and I know things have changed a little bit with, rookie the not the rookie, but the second year class, Clark, everything else, and prices have gone up probably a little bit from where they were when you first started collecting.

But when you see something like this and you see the price point, do you do you feel like there's still a lot of really good opportunity to get value NW collecting?

Yeah. And I'll start by saying I was pissed that you sent this to me because I didn't see this.

And and I would have had three save search I would have, like, three save searches with it. So I looked into it more. It sold at 06:54 in the morning on a Friday. Why. Someone smashed it right away. Like, I didn't have a chance.

So yes. So congratulations to that person. But to your larger point is is is right. I actually it's on the way to eBay authentication. I got a gold vinyl premier one of one Alyssa Thomas for maybe 70% of this.

That's insane. Yeah. It's Alyssa Thomas. I mean, she's been in the top five of the MVP MVP four years, five years in a row. Like, that's she's she is a superstar, and yet I think I paid, like, $2.

70 for her one of one. Like, that's this which is stupid. Like, why is that a thing? And so this is so kinda getting back to what I was saying earlier about, like, the the ways in which the larger hobby has crossed over.

I think this is one of those, those things. Right? Because I I had went down this entire rabbit hole when you send this to me because I need to know more.

And so, one of your, team's players so I looked, because I have a a theory and it's something I think needs addressing and probably not on this show.

But I think somebody needs to have the conversation about the ways in which the expectations of women in sports are different than men in sports. Mhmm. Sophie Cunningham's one of one went for four and a half times this last week.

Sophie Cunningham in no way, shape, or form is ever getting picked on a team for me before John Quill Jones. Never. Never. Yeah. Right? So then now we can talk about all the reasons why that happens.

You know, whether they're talking about massage, the homophobia, whatever the case might be. Again, that's a different thing. But if you just put those two cards side by side, any w fan is like, what the hell happened here?

And any, you know, sort of casual investor fan was like, well, of course, that's the money because the, the Sophie Cunningham sales in the last two weeks have been absolutely skyrocketing.

So it makes sense for what her market is, but it doesn't make sense for what the w market is and certainly doesn't make sense for what on court performance is.

But that's and so the and but that's, again, that's where the other sports of hype overproduction, Now we're starting to see it in the w as well.

I love this. Is is the that I don't know. Like, the seeing the Sophie Cunningham sales and seeing what's happening, I chalk it up, and it's you know, she's on the team I cheer for.

I under I I understand why her value is increasing, but I'm not I don't I try to remove myself from being like, oh, that's so absurd. That's so ridiculous.

Because to me, it's like, at this point, it happens in so many categories, and it's just part of the hobby, but it doesn't kind of separate the it it doesn't eliminate the fact that, like, what's crazy is, like, a card like this went for a percentage of that.

I I feel and I have a lot of conversations with WNBA collectors.

It it feels like at times there's, I I don't animosity might be a a bad word when we're talking about, like, these hot rookies, and Toby Cunningham is not in that group because he's not a rookie.

But these players that are coming in and they're changing everything, like, I can't believe, like, the price is like, you've been in this category for a lot longer than I have. Like, how do you, like, absorb those types of sales?

Like, the Cameron Brink Black Finite being kind of the the highest, WNBA selling card non Caitlin Clark of all time. Like, how do you kinda process and absorb all those happenings? Yeah.

And, again, and I think and you and Caitlin sort of touched on this when you're going through the sort of the history of of what Prism is and why '21 and '22 didn't necessarily have that, pop of '21 and '24 and '23 somewhere in the middle.

And it it does come down to the rookie class. Like, you know, Charlie Collier played, what, five games in in the w as a number one pick in '22. I mean, that's that's Greg Goden ish.

That's Michael Ollie with candy. That's the w version of it. Right? So, you know, you're building on the success of of Sabrina and getting you know, these teams getting on TV finally, and then that's your number one pick.

And that's what happens. And I mean, you know, shout out to her, and I hope she's living a good life and she's happy and, you know, living productively.

But if you're talking about cards, like, it didn't help. Then Mhmm. And well, so retroactively, you know, that's a that becomes and we'll we'll go with, like, Cunningham and Mabry in that class.

That's their rookie card, but they're not rookie badged. Mhmm. Right? Because they were just in the like, it wasn't their first year, but it was their first card.

And so there's a little confusion there. Right? And so the same thing, '22, not much of a class. Lexi Hall later on, but, again, is that Caitlin adjacent that Lexi Hall gets something.

Yeah. But Melissa Smith and I like Melissa Smith as a player, but she's hasn't really broken through. She hasn't been able to command that sort of that that playing time that gets her noticed by collector.

So you had a two year gap. So I think without that, this is more of a steady incline over the years. It just seems more dramatic now because it it started high, dropped because of two, like, subpar classes.

Aliyah Boston, you know, she's she's gonna she and she started to get, you know, back to what a rookie demand would look like, and then all of a sudden you get this this rookie class.

And then this year's rookie class is gonna continue. So it's gonna seem less like an outlier after the 25 products start coming out.

But again, in in the I guarantee well, I can't guarantee. 90 sure that the brink sale is also not to a w collector. It's to somebody who's looking to flip it. Right? And so, you know, there's there's that.

And, again, that's the maturation of a market. That's what happens when you get other other players come in. I see this in in, in soccer too. I mean, we collect the LaMigna Wall. I don't collect like LaMigna Mall.

I can't afford it. Right? But I mean, he's great, but he's not the prices that he's commanding great yet. He's, you know, this is all based on he's had some success early on, but he's being priced over Messi.

And I'm sorry. I I wouldn't I'm not gonna do it. No. I I love that. Everything you said there makes a ton of sense to me. Also, I'm glad you, mentioned Aliyah Boston.

I'm not sure I would be mentally sane if she wasn't on the fever right now. Or I don't think without Clark, I don't think the fever would win one game if she wasn't playing, so I'm very thankful for her this season.

You mentioned soccer. We're gonna move over to, a guy you collect, 2017, Topps Chrome, UEFA's champion league, Robert Lewandowski, green refractor, out of 99, PSA 10.

This sold for $3. 99, via bin smash. This set when we're talking soccer always gets brought up.

There's so many collectors I interact with, love this set. But maybe talk about the player and the set, why you collect them, and, also, what what do you think of twenty seventeen Topps Chrome?

I I think it's an important set. I'm not a huge fan of green refractors unless it's a color match. For some reason, it just clashes with most jerseys. This almost had to have gone to a similar color.

Here. Yeah. I so I do have the jersey number gold refractor of Levandowski, in a tag nine of all things. But, so I do I do. I like to set, and I'd love to own the red, someday, as well if I especially if we can get the nine out of 10.

I I started collecting Levandowski. So, you know, when I my this is my third time through the hobby. And so, you know, I I was like, I wanna collect soccer. But I was collecting, like, in the mid two thousands.

I did a lot of prospecting. So when I came back, I sort of leaned towards that, but I'm like, it's really, really hard to prospect soccer, because there's five different, you know, leagues of that are considered the highest league.

And, you know, there's so many different sets, and then there's stickers involved.

And it got really tough. And so, very quickly, I was like, I don't I don't have the bandwidth to to keep up with this anymore. I'm too old. I got too much other stuff to do.

So early in the pandemic, Amazon had a six episode series on Bayern Munich. I was watching everything at that point. Let me let me check this out. And I had heard Levandowski's name, the soccer cards united podcast I love.

They talked about him, and he'd had an incredible year in Germany that I didn't see one single minute of. So I was watching this this this documentary, and he just seemed really likable.

And he again, he kinda fits with my ethos of no one's talking about it. Right? Because when you get into soccer, it's Messi or Ronaldo. Messi's out of my price range.

Ronaldo has credible sexual assault allegations against him, so he's not going to my collection. So those two are out. Then there was Mbappe and Holland. And again, kind of out of my out of my price range there.

But Lewandowski, they they canceled the Balon d'Or for 2020 because of COVID. He probably would have won it, which would have put him in this rare thing where there's this whole lot.

I can't remember these actors, but it's something like fourteen years in a row where it was like Messi or Reynaldo won it every year, except Luka Modric won it once.

And he was gonna break that string and he got kinda got robbed because they didn't actually hold the, the, the ceremony that year.

And so I was like, well, that's, that sucks. And so I was like, but you know what? I think I like this guy.

He's he's at next tier down. He's a he's a he does one thing is put the ball in the net. It's all he does. He's like, he's not there to look flashy. He's not there to, you know, have these beautiful crosses in front of him.

No. No. You get him the ball. He puts the ball in the net And, you know, that's what soccer's about. So, I I started looking into him and, again, because comparatively, super cheap.

Like, I I got great, great, like, cards number that, you know, red refractors, you know, out of, you know, ten and five, like, $90. Like, they just weren't selling.

And so I've I've managed to put together one. I've kind of called it. So this is a guy where now I'm only collecting his jersey numbered cards that are 25 or less. Because there's just so much. You had to narrow it down. That's awesome.

I love the whole background, and was always curious, so I appreciate you sharing that. Moving over to this last one is the 22 immaculate signature moves at a 99 auto of Lita. And Lita is a WWE legend for anyone who is unfamiliar.

If you're not familiar, go watch some Lita tape. Highly entertaining. One of the greatest female performers of all time. Kevin, what do you think of oh, by the way, I didn't mention.

This is a third $38 sale, big whopping $38 bin smash. Why do you collect Lita? What is it about Lita that you that you're into? First of all, I'm mad because I thought I had this card and I don't.

So once once I saw it, I was like, oh, I was like, oh, how much did I pay for mine? I was like, oh, I don't actually own it, because I have a different immaculate, you know, from that's it.

But, yes. I've been I'm I'm 50. I'm old. So I watched the wrestling in the eighties, you know, when I was 10, 11 years old. They, you know, that was the the Hulk Hogan era, the Radical beer.

Then I didn't, you know, watch it for a long time. I was working at a record store about 1998, ninety nine ish, and, some of the people I worked with were into the it was like I think it was still WWF at that time.

I don't think it was yet, but it was getting close to that era, but it was the attitude era. And so we would hang out every once in a while and they would have it on TV.

And I just kinda like got into a little bit more. I was like, okay. This is this isn't what I remember from the eighties. And then one night, I'm watching, and I this guy is so forgettable.

I still had to look up his name before this conversation. SA Rios. Oh, yeah. I do not remember his name. I remember he I know what he looks like. I do not remember his name for a million dollars, but he had Lita with him.

Yeah. You know, this this woman. And I was like, okay. You know, it's it's a manager. It's the ballet. It's the same thing as the eighties, whatever. And then she jumps off the top rope.

I'm like, holy shit. What? And I'm looking around and, you know, no one else is, like, you know, batting an eye. Like, do you what? That's no. No. No. That that that they didn't let them do that in the eighties.

Like, what do you hold on a second. And I was instantly, like, captivated. I was like, this is now my new favorite thing in wrestling is that they've actually, like, let the women be athletes and not just be eye candy.

So, you know, I've followed, you know, so I watched for a couple years, you know, and, the the rivalry she had with Trish is amazing.

The documentary on the rivalry of Trish is amazing. Especially when when, you know, you you see her insecurity about, like, I'm an athlete, but I don't look like Trish.

And Trish is like, I look like me, but I can't do those moves. And it's, you know, it's just it's it's it's a really interesting sort of microcosm of what the attitude era was and and how women were progressing through the business.

So I always kinda remember that. I was like, you know, she's somebody that, like, I always liked.

And then, again, kind of out of my mind for a while. And then when I get was getting back into collecting, and I was like, okay. Well, there's wrestling cards and, you know, kinda half looked around.

And I wasn't that interested in it. I was like, oh, I like Stone Cold, but, like, again, too expensive for what I wanted to spend on wrestling cards. So he was he was kinda out.

And then completely randomly, there's a a punk band, from the nineties called Jawbreaker. I'm a big fan of Jawbreaker. And they broke up in late ninety six and then they hated each other and they got back together a few years ago.

Now they're, they still tour regularly, but I follow them on Instagram. Just kind of keep up with what they were doing. All of a sudden Lita is in their, like their posts because she's friends with Jawbreaker.

And and even at first, I'm like, I'm not even sure because her Instagram handle's like at Machete Girl. Like, that doesn't even I don't even know. Is that really? Is that something like doing all this stuff?

Is that really her? It is. I'm like, so she's even cooler than I thought because not only is she breaking barriers for women in wrestling, she's also one of the coolest freaking punk bands of the nineties that I love.

Maybe it's time for me to start just sort of collecting this, and then that became how I how I, colleague Lita.

That's the best. I love everything about that, so much. I love the SA Rios name drop. I'm glad, SA Rios made a short appearance here, and, it's a hell of a reason to collect.

We'll just leave it at that. I'm gonna move over into the last section where I try to pick a car that's on eBay. I don't know. I I was planning on digging through your page to see if you had this, and I don't know if you do.

But I wanna talk about this set with you mostly. And I know you probably know this card's out there, but let's talk about this 2020 Prism Skyler Diggins gold, gold out of 10 PSA 10 that's sitting on eBay for nearly 2 k.

Debut set, you're the player you I when I think of your w collecting, I think of, Skylar Diggins. I guess, first question is, do you own this card? I do. I actually have the jersey number copy.

Of course you do. When when did you get this card? So I bought this, at National on eBay. I was walking I was at the National last year, and I just had had eBay open. And I was like, oh, so I guess this card's not here.

I guess I'll just buy it on eBay. So it was so, yeah. So I got it I got it last year. It was a BGS nine. I ended up cracking it because, you know and and as you know, like, the 2020 said, like, the centering is terrible.

Like, it's just it's just bad. And I think it's like I got, like, an eight five centering or something like that. But I was like, I but it's the four of 10, so I want the four of 10.

And, you know, the the BGSBGS9, I love BGSNines if they're if they have good sub grades because you can get them so much cheaper because the so many of these new collectors, like, just turn their nose up.

And I'm from the era where b when b g s was king, so I got no problem with b g s. As far as the then grading cards, their business and, you know, submitting things now, different story.

But, I I like, BGS Labs do not turn me off in the slightest. So this card, maybe I'd love to know because you said you came in during kinda Sabrina pulled you in.

Obviously, when I think about the set, Sabrina's the first player I think about, what would how how different is do you think the perception of this set is from when it launched to now with all that's going on with w collecting?

Like, do you think, collectors have gravitated around this set and been like, okay. This is the debut w set of Prism.

Like, there's something here. Or do you think it's still, I don't know. The the community or collectors haven't quite got there yet. Like, what's your perception? I don't think they've quite gotten there yet.

There's a there's a few that I have on my watch list that I I think are way below what they they should be that I'm kinda keeping an eye on for, you know, when I get some the the right funds for it or whatever.

But the the thing that that gets me the most about this is so I got a friend who's who owns two, card shops. He's had them he's been in the business for forty years.

He's he's he's a long, long time dealer. Big supporter of women's basketball. He's been ordering w products, like, his the entire time that they've been available, like, back to Ultra.

Like, he's he's had them all the way through. And so when I went to I went to him and bought the two box of these and and ripped them, like, basically on release day, we were talking about it or whatever.

And he had, like, I don't see his some, like, ten, twelve cases of it. And through the years, it was the same thing. Like, he as much as much as he wanted panini, we give them or distributors we give them.

Like, he never had a shortage of w products. So it was always fun to go in and rip a box every once in a while. So in 2024 started coming around, I was like, hey.

You know? So what are you getting for x, y, and z? He goes, well, last year, I got I think I wanna say it was, like, 23 cases of twenty twenty three prism. He goes for 2024 select, he's they're giving me two boxes. Oh, god.

And, like so somebody who supported the products from jump goes almost completely shut out of it because it had to go to breakers and it had to go to whatever. And it's like, that's where I think the problem is because he's not unique.

There are places around the country who had local card shops who were who were supporting this, who have people who are coming in, we're having the conversations, we're buying the product, you know, we're we're at the grassroots level and they all got the rug pulled out from under him because they needed to go to breakers.

And he's like, I don't know what I can do with two boxes. Like, I'll you know, I have two stores. You know, I put one box in each store. Like, what do, you know, what do I do here?

And, you know, so I think that's the problem with the growth is that right now, people can't go into card stores and find the product. I mean, even if it's obscenely overpriced, they can't even find it because it all went to breakers.

So if you can't really connect with the new stuff, then you're really not gonna be able to go back to the old stuff. So if you're a player collector and it's on your checklist and you need to get it, that's cool.

But, like, no one is, like, deciding, like, like, oh, you know, cool. Britney Sykes is having a great year this year. Let me go see what a twenty twenty gold Britney Sykes is.

Like, people just aren't they aren't thinking that way. They're gonna get this year's, and they're gonna wake up comes out in 2025, but then I have to go back four years to get a Britney Sykes card.

They should, but they won't. You know? Yeah. No doubt. That is, yeah. It's crazy. That's a that's a wild story. What before we move off of this and close out the episode, what do you think of this image?

Whenever I see this card, I just I I I love the just the whole presentation of this. Skyler's, like, staring directly at you, just, you know, crossing the ball getting ready to cross the ball between her her legs and just I don't know.

The the way this scan is captured on, eBay is phenomenal. But, like, what do you think about, like, the presentation of this card? I think the first time I pulled one of these out of a pack, she broke my ankles.

So, yeah, it's I mean, it's a photo shoot because she'd been, you know, sign or, you know, she'd come from, Dallas the year before, so she hadn't had any game photos in Phoenix.

I think, the Brianna Stewart, I think, is also it's to Sue Bird. I think all three of those are basically photo shoot cards and not in action.

Yeah. That's a fun topic to get into. So that and that, you know, that might have something to do with people's reticence is a there seems to be a decent amount of photo shoot cards in here.

And this is this is an aesthetics thing, but it's it's a nitpicky thing is I love just about every team's current jersey. That last iteration of jerseys, they all look like warm up jerseys.

And so that just to me, that takes away from the photos in some of these cases. It's like that. The jersey's not that great, but it's like now now they all have great jerseys.

And so I think that might be part of it. And that's probably like a subconscious, like, back to your mind. Like, this almost doesn't look like a serious card sort of thing, even though it's it's for some minutes, very much serious card.

But, like, I think I think there's just all these, like, little bits and pieces that are harder sells to casual collectors, and then you bring in the rarity and the price and and and all that as well.

So they're like, you know what? I I I know this player there's so much player movement too.

So I was like, I know this player on this team in the 2024 product. I'm just gonna get that. So much to dig into. We're gonna have to, do this again some other time because I I think there's a mini rabbit holes we could have gone down.

You can follow him on Instagram, Kevin m Cormier. Kevin, I'm glad we could get this in. Really appreciate the time digging in, talking about some cards. Cool Caitlin Clark card, and appreciate all the perspective. Alright. Thank you.