Welcome back to another episode of Passionate Profession brought to you by my good friends at eBay. Excited to dig into trust and loyalty in an unregulated hobby when I was thinking about this topic. There was a guest that I felt was perfect for this. He's been on the show before. Today, I'm joined by Michael Osaki, who's the founder of Baseball in the Attic, PSA's lead appraiser.

Excited to get into this topic with you. Michael, welcome back. How are you? I'm outstanding, Brett. Happy New Year.

I hope you have a great 2026. The same to you. I would imagine you are expecting a lot of travel this year. It feels like every time we talk, you are about to go somewhere or you are are coming back from somewhere. What is your travel schedule looking like in 2026?

It's still going to be intense. It's it's it's hard to imagine it being more than 2025, but that's a good problem to have. And, usually, I schedule, like, eight to ten weeks in advance. So I I kinda know, like, 2026, it's at least in q one, it's gonna be very busy. So all good problems to have again.

Good. I'm excited to talk about this. And, obviously, the hobby is growing very, very fast. 2025 was a a record breaking year on a lot of fronts. Money money has grown faster.

But maybe the rules have not quite kept up. Entrust feels like a gap where regulation does not. And as we kick off this conversation, we're gonna get in the weeds on a lot of stuff. The hobby doesn't have an SEC, no FINRA, no referee, so trust really becomes the system. Why does that matter more now than ever before?

Oh, the first thing I would say is it matters more than ever before because the hobby is growing immensely year over year. And because of that, because what we do is front page news, and we now have the hobby on a Netflix television show. We have auction houses every single week. There are bad actors, scammers, and con artists that are trying to make a quick buck in our world. And there is no oh, and we have a lot of social media influencers and athletes sharing what they purchased to their fans, and then their fans are acquiring these items.

And because it's unregulated, we need to really step it up and do and and and make sure that we're not just policing ourselves and our own businesses, but the hobby in general. I mean, we probably need some sort of board of directors or group to oversee this because what we do is growing, and it's going to be growing for a very long time. This is not, like we saw in 2025, the eBay sales, right, in July and August, record sales. They had record sales the entire year. Auction houses had record sales.

Card manufacturers had record sales. And so we just need to do a better job and take a step back and realize, hey. We should really form a group or do something to make sure that we can continue to grow in the correct way in the future. This, this governing body approach and idea that you just brought up, you've been, you know, working in this space for a very long time, and you've seen a lot of different cycles. And you've probably seen a lot of, things go up, a lot of things go down, a lot of bad actors, a lot of good things too.

I I'm I'm imagining this isn't a novel idea of, like, we need something in place, especially since we're growing. It feels like whenever this topic gets brought up, there's there's pushback. What has been your experience in over the years when you you bring up governing body in a group setting or you're talking to, you know, a client? Like, do you think this is something that will ever get to a place where it's required or needed? Well, let me answer that in two ways.

Yes. Eventually, we are going to get into a place that it will be needed. I will say in the years past when I talk to people about something like this, they look at me like I'm crazy. They're like, come on, Michael. Like, this is the hobby.

We're all having fun. We go to the national. We go to card shows. We we trade with our friends. We do this.

We do that. What are you talking about? A governing body? I'm like, well, if you wanna make sure that your assets, your cards, your investments are safe and good years down the road and that this isn't the bubble where the people put up their hands and say we're done with cards because of x y z, then we need to be proactive and really thinking about this. Because fast forward, let's say, five, six years from now, I think it's going to be too late to start to form this governing body.

It should really be starting well, it should have already started years ago, and it hasn't. So I don't know what the outcome will be, but, hopefully, as years tick by, more people will be more people will start to listen and understand the need for this. So the reality of the situation is the the hobby's unregulated, and so I wanna get into maybe what self regulated actually means in practice and where collectors assume protection exists, but maybe doesn't, why bad actors continue to thrive in these gray areas. Where do you think and maybe thinking about assumptions from collectors with this topic at play, where do you think collectors might get this wrong? Well, at the end of the day, this is about ethics and morals.

And I think sometimes collectors can get this wrong by, let's say, purchasing a card from x y z baseball card shop or an autograph from an auction house. And they automatically think that because they're buying it from an entity, a known entity, that this entity must be on the up and up. That that they do everything correctly. They don't, you know, show bid or scam anybody. Hopefully, that's never the case.

Hopefully, these are above board actors, but you really just never know. And I remember and as you said a few minutes ago, I've been involved in the hobby for decades. I remember in the late nineteen nineties, 1999, Operation Bullpen in New Jersey and actually on the West Coast too where the Marino family was forging autographs of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Chrissy Mathewson, whoever. And this company made a lot of money because they were a known entity. And so back to your question, people were just buying Babe Ruth signed cuts or Chrissy Mathewson signed autographs from this company because they had it in inventory, so it must be legit.

Oh, and then I should say, Brett, this company, Stanley Man Sports, had Donald Frangipani, a forensic examiner, write and authenticate letters that these autographs are all authentic and legit. Right? It so they're they're buying a Babe Ruth autograph, and they look at this beautiful piece of paper. It's stamped and embossed from a forensic examiner. Very impressive.

It was all bogus. It was all b s. And so, again, people just people need to do their own research. If you're in the hobby, talk to people. Look at Reddit boards.

Go to card shows. Ask people about this entity. Is this good? Should I buy this from someone? Is this a good price?

So always be asking questions. Is there any type of you just, you know, maybe just trusting entities just because they are entities and people have bought from them before? Maybe that's a risk that we make in the hobby. Are there any other types of risks that you see in your line of work collectors underestimate? I will say and this is an interesting one.

I think collectors underestimate their own self worth and education. Whereas, let's say you're starting let's say you're brand new to the hobby and you've been reading up about whatever, a Shohei Ohtani card. You've been reading about this set issue or the way that this person signs their autograph because you wanna make sure before you buy the autograph, yes, it may have a PSA COA, which is fantastic, but you also wanna be comfortable with the autograph. I think when people are brand new to the hobby, they get worried and scared that they've done their own due diligence, but maybe it's lacking. I and I talk to these people all the time.

You know, trust yourself. If you're if you've been doing the research and if you've been putting in the work and doing the time, just like buying a stock, it's okay. You know, start small. You don't have to buy a $10,000 card. Buy a $50 card, and after you've been doing five or six hours, ten hours of homework, and that's okay.

Don't always say, I'm brand new. I need to trust this person a 100%. Trust yourself. Trust your gut instinct. The I think a lot about reputation, and there are so many new businesses that are forming, popping up on a regular basis, whether they're providing product or services to collectors in this space.

And, they're just looking to drive revenue, right, to market, get their name out there as fast, and might not be thinking long term about their reputation. And I think about just how the hobby works these days. Everything's quick hitting, dopamine hits, whether it's Instagram's reels, big pulls, record prices, and it's this it's instant. But I think it takes time to establish your own credibility and reputation, in order to, you know, earn trust. I just with that topic and thinking about companies in this space forming and emerging, like, do do you have any thoughts on just, like, what those companies can do or should be doing in order to think about the long game?

And that long game involves, like, making sure that they are viewed as credible or viewed as having a good rep down the road? Start to form collaborations or partnerships. And if if if that's not up your alley, that's okay. Just start talking to people. Because what might happen is let's say you wanna buy something or sell something or trade something, and the opposing party says to you let's say your name is John Doe.

They'll say, you know, John Doe, I don't know you. You're you're brand new to Hobby. Can someone vouch for you? And if you say, you know, x y z person, and this guy is like, oh my god. Yeah.

This person's great. And then they call this person, like, that's a great vouch because this person is a mutual connection, a mutual friend. And so that's really great for starters. If you own a business, Google reviews are great, but obviously not the end all, the be all because you're basically gonna try and solicit positive reviews from everybody. And sometimes publicly or public reviews are not so good because it's almost like you're guilty until proven innocent.

Meaning, let's say someone thinks that you overcharged them on a shipping cost, like, you know, and they think you should refund them 50¢, they're gonna post something negative about you where it's like, well, it is what it is. I shipped it during the holiday season and the FedEx rates went up 30% and, like, you know, like, I'm not trying to nickel and dime you. So there are people out there who, believe it or not, will give someone a bad review or talk bad about someone because of some weird esoteric nuance. Right? But at the end of the day, just try and make connections, talk to people.

People in the hobby are really friendly and supportive on the most part. And as long as you're trying not to, you know, ask somebody about their how much money someone made last year, people are generally, you know, happy to talk to you. I've often said, I think, kind of trust and reputation are the greatest assets we can have in the hobby, and reputation is currency in this space. Like you alluded to, one bad experience can mean the end of a business. And whenever anything bad happens, it just always goes viral on social media.

I think in one of our previous conversations, you made mention that reputation is all you have, and I know you have built your career on the back of your reputation. So maybe walk through kinda how important your reputation has been and what that means in your day to day line of work. It's all I have. And like you said a few minutes ago, I play the long game and which is can be difficult. But in general, I'm a very patient person.

A lot of people are not patient, and they're looking for the quick buck. And I think in any business, you should be looking you should be doing it for long term purposes, sustainable growth. Right? Additionally, generally speaking, I have kind of a longer sales cycle. I don't own a baseball card shop, right, where someone's coming in to buy something and it's very transactional.

When people hire me to appraise their collection, there's a thought process involved. There's a financial commitment. They may have to ask their family members or the estate planner, or maybe they're trying to get something appraised for a tax deduction. So there's IRS implications. So there's many different parties that have to opine if they wanna hire me.

But reputation listen. You need to treat people the way that you wanna be treated. Just as if you were going to a restaurant or you're or you booked some experience and you're looking for a fun time, a great way to spend the day. The same thing with me. I don't care if my client is John Doe or Tom Brady or if their collection is worth a $100,000,000 or a $100,000.

I have to treat everybody the same, and I do treat everyone the same. And that's just how I was brought up. To me, you know, seeing Tom Brady is is not very impressive. I probably wouldn't even take a picture with him. He's just a regular guy.

But to most people, they're like, oh my gosh. It's Tom Brady. Like, well, I have a job to do, and I need to appraise his collection. And that's what I'm going to do, and that's what I'm paid to do. Right?

And so you just need to be even keel. Be honest with people. Be very transparent. Also, should say, which is very important, don't be afraid to tell people I don't know. I think people people can see through that.

People if you try and fake it, if somebody asks you a question and you say an answer and you don't really know what you're talking about, they can feel that and they know that. Right? And so don't ever do that. And then lastly, I'll say, if I'm not the right person or if I don't know, I always always try and steer them in the correct direction. So for example, let's say somebody calls me and they have one autograph and they wanna have it authenticated or appraised.

But sometimes people use the word or the terminology appraising and authenticating in the same way. They think that they're the same thing, but they're not. So I'll tell them, no. You need to have this lugaric item authenticated. You do not need my assistance, at least not right now.

So here's PSA's website. Here's their phone number. Call them. You can find out how much it costs on their website. You can bring it to the show, which is near you in Kansas.

Get it done. You know? So I try and help people that way even though I'm not monetizing it. It is the right thing to do. I wanna stay on this, like, long term mindset because it's so counter to what we see in the hobby from a, transactional perspective of people exchanging cards and wanting to move something fast and get top dollar to maybe how some businesses in this space operate where they're not able to look at the long term future, but they just want the quick buck.

You, have said you know, you've been in this space for decades. You consider yourself a longer long, game player. What what does that maybe mean in practice? Like, how do you let's say you have a call with someone who's got this big collection who might be interested in using you at some point. How do you go from not bothering them or calling them regularly to check-in to just trusting in your process?

Like, what do you do just to keep that peace of mind? This is a great question. There is a fine line here, right, between being a used car salesman and just keeping them in mind or keeping them abreast of either what I'm doing or what they should be aware of. So for example yeah. Let's say someone has a large trading card collection.

Let's say it's nineteen forty eight leaf to nineteen seventy five tops. Every sport complete. So baseball, basketball, football. But I know, let's say, in '53 Bowman Color, they're missing a couple cards or 57 or maybe 57 tops football, they're missing the Bardstar rookie card. Well, maybe I see those cards at auction or on eBay or something, and then I call this person up and be like, hey.

Hey, Billy Bob. You know, it's Michael with baseball in the attic. You know, we talked whatever it was three months ago, and I I know you're missing these cards. And this Bard Star card that's up for auction right now is consistent from what I've seen so far from pictures you sent me of the condition in your set, and you're missing this card. And you told me that you're gonna try in the next couple years to finish this set.

Well, here is an opportunity to do that. Here is the auction. Here's their website. You can register for free. You know, you you don't need to go through me to buy it.

You just if you want it, that's great. If not, you know, no big deal. So trying to be like a value added resource. You know, and then sometimes also, like so I have a November birthday, and it very rarely comes up. Let's say, you know, maybe a potential client has also a November birthday.

So he he or she is a Scorpio. Maybe I'll just say, happy birthday, fellows, you know, Scorpio. And and he may say, oh, yeah. That's right. I think it's her birthday too.

Right? Coming up. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then he may say, okay. How about we talk next year? You know, it's been about a year or so, Michael, or two years since we last talked, and I think maybe now I'm in a better spot. I have some time now because I just got laid off from my job, and so your timing is perfect. And how about we meet in January?

So sometimes things work organically like that. It's good perspective. And I wanna maybe go back to the Tom Brady example where you're talking about status and maybe treating everyone the same and having no special treatment based on kinda status or collection size and you staying true to your process and standards regardless. And a term that we don't hear too often this hobby is just, like, being fair, like, remaining fair. I would imagine just from our conversations and what the longevity of your career in this space that consistency is something you value a lot.

And maybe why is consistency more important in some instances than just credentials themselves? Consistency for me is showing up every day and doing the right thing by both me and the potential client or client customer. Credentials are great, and I have a lot of credentials through ISA, which is an appraiser organization. And, yeah, I oversee the appraisal department at PSA, and that's and that's great too. I but I I will say I don't think that, you know, those credentials happen without me years earlier, like, doing the right thing, just honing my craft, learning what I'm doing.

Because I see things every week that maybe I've never seen before, and I need to figure I'm paid to figure out what the value is. And so I really try and hone my craft. I learn something new every week. And that's being consistent too, you know, understanding and acknowledging that I don't know everything. Sometimes people will come up to me like on the street or at The National and they'll say, Michael, hey, I have this card.

How much is this worth? And just like, well, know, like, don't know. I'm trying to get to the bathroom and they're like, you know, you know, I don't know. Like, how do you not know? I don't know.

It's I'm not, like, in the right mind frame, you know. So being consistent is really important. In addition, as we already talked about, playing the long game. Being consistent, doing the right thing, and the same thing day in and day out, day in and day out. That's what you gotta do for years upon years.

Have you ever lost business by maybe holding that line or staying true to the your own core values as a business owner and operator? Yeah. There's been a few times for all different reasons. One of the reasons which you or or, I guess, any listener can appreciate is so I am again, this kinda goes back to playing the long game and being trust and loyalty. I you even though Chicago is home, and like most of the people here, like politicians go to jail because it's pay per play.

A couple times I've been offered extra money to artificially either inflate or deflate the value of an item or multiple items or the entire collection. So for example, let's say someone is getting divorced and he's splitting the assets with his wife fifty fifty because they've been married for twenty five years. Right? And so legally, by law, he has to split the assets fifty fifty. But he does not want to, you know, pay her a lot of money, so he wants the the report to be low as opposed to high.

So right? And so he may offer me or, you know, some extra cash or, hey. I'll get you, you know, four seats to the, you know, Minnesota Vikings game or, you know, something. And that's just not how I play because, again, a, that's not how I was raised. I've never done it before.

And, you know, once word gets out that you do that, you know, you'll get calls from people who can pay you and yeah. Sure. Short term, you can make some extra money, but long term, you'll probably be out of business because people will find out what you're doing. And what you're doing is not above board. I wanna dig into back to, like, this trust and loyalty and then maybe referrals.

And maybe this is pointed at anyone out there who is listening, is running a business, or is thinking about running a business in the space. It's an opportunity for you to hear some insight from Michael who's been doing this for decades. But how much of your business today comes from that trust that you've established and you've you've built over time? Well, I don't have an exact number. I mean, it's gotta be at least 90 because yeah.

I would say 95% of my business on an annual basis is referral based. So my yes. I have a website and people can fill out a form, but that's not really how I get leads or generate business. So I don't I mean, it's it's very high. It's it's very, very high, and I have a lot of repeat clients, like, not necessarily end user, but, like, an attorney or a CPA that has multiple clients that own sports collectibles that he or she will refer me.

But, again, as I you know, I couple minutes ago, gave an example of 1999. That was decades. So I've been doing this for a very, very, very long time. Is do you have have you built in anything into your process, like, let's say, after you got got get done with an on-site or after you're leaving a family, after looking through a bunch of items. Is there anything you've done over the years that works for you in order to maybe not be pushy about referrals, but just any tactics you've used over the years that might get people to refer business to you in a way that's maybe genuine or authentic?

Great question again, as always. I would say, one of the and this is really important and so easy to do. For anybody listening and really in any business you're in, after I'm done with the appraisal, maybe a couple weeks later, I will write them a handwritten letter and put it in the mail with a stamp. People get hundreds of emails every day, but we don't get a lot of snail mail, like letters in the mail. Right?

And it's actually kind of shocking and jarring when people would get, you know, a thank you letter. It's like, what? And especially if it's not around the holidays, they're like, what? It's like March 10 and I'm getting a thank you letter? Who could this be from?

And they it puts a smile on their face. They'll call me. They're like, oh my god. That was so nice of you. You did such a great job.

We've already told our neighbor about you, and and we love to refer you. And it's funny because in the thank you letter, I never mentioned anything about referring me. But when they get the thank you letter, they like, in their head, they think about referring me. So a stamp cost, whatever it is, 60¢, you know, letter. It's so cheap, but so wonderful.

I recommend everybody doing this. That resonates with me so much. I and you're it's so true. Like, snail mail, it stands out in this digital age. Someone sent me was very kind, sent me a handwritten note and a book about building business because they knew I'm in the process of building business.

And it was just like a, hey. Thanks for the content. Check out this book. It's changed basically how I've thought about business. And it was so out of left field and so kind that, of course, on the stationary, there was the number his number and the email address.

And the first thing I did was send an email and say, hey. Let's talk. And that conversation leads to more conversations and just it spirals. So that is, like, a gold nugget for anyone out there. Like, take the time to go send someone something because I mean, I look at my mail.

If I'm not getting a card in the mail, it's just a bunch of crap. So that type of stuff stands out. So good call out there. Yep. I wanna you said something I think one of the times we talk I was going back and look listening to some of our conversation, but you said you've you've said when you go to bed, you wanna know you did it the right way.

And maybe how you think about doing things the right way and feeling comfortable going out of bed at night, and how you prioritize that over just, like, growing more and gaining new business and that mindset that you have. This is why I look so young. I go to bed at night, and I know I did things the right way. Meaning, I was very honest with people. I was transparent with people.

Oh, and I should tell you, by the way, just because I'm honest with people and transparent, it doesn't mean that they will like me or agree with me. Right? So when somebody calls me and tells me that they they're so excited because they found a t two zero six Honus Wagner in their collection. And I tell them that it's no good. It's a fake or it's a reprint.

And, you know, sometimes they swear at me because they know that this card is worth millions and millions of dollars on the low end. Right? So they think they're an automatic millionaire and I crush them. I crush them not because I'm mean to them, but I just, you know, politely tell them that, no. Like, this is not authentic.

So back to your question, you know, I I do things the right way and I because I'm in it for the long term, I know eventually, you know well, year over year, the business will continue to grow even though maybe I could grow faster doing things maybe slightly different. But that's okay because I don't have a lot of overhead. You know, I don't have a a physical retail shop where I'm selling anything, so I don't have to pay rent. So, like, that's okay with me. Like, I'm I'm okay with where I am and what I do and how I help people.

And I'm not trying to, you know, get something quick by somebody. And, you know, for me, that's really all that matters. Some people may listen to this and, like, oh my god. Michael's crazy. Like, he should either be doing this or that.

And, you know, that's okay. You know, people call me and give me their ideas, and sometimes they're wonderful ideas that I implement and sometimes they're not. But I just kinda do whatever I think I should do. You mentioned the example of maybe someone screaming at you because you didn't even need to look at it. You you telling someone's t two zero six Wagner is not real.

How have you learned to not bring emotion into it on your end when this hobby is so full of emotion and there's probably so many emotional conversations that you're going through every time you meet with someone. I mean, it's very difficult. We I mean, we could probably talk for half hour just about this. But a couple different okay. So like I was saying before, 95% of my business is referral based from all different types of people.

But I do get on a daily basis a lot of inbound leads, emails, phone calls, some even text messages. Right? And so it can be difficult emotionally or to talk to people when all I'm getting on a daily basis is I have a 1989 Don Ross collection of a 100,000 cards. I have three t two zero six Honus Wagner's that must be authentic. I have a 1914 Cracker Jack, Christy Mathewson.

You know, I got, you know and and by the way, like, the the this is not the same person. These are call after call different calls every day. And it's all junk. So at the end of the day, you're exhausted because it's like, I got 27 calls or emails, and I have to tell I have to I have to politely tell people. So for me, an emotional perspective, it's like, oh, god.

I got here we go again. I I so like it's like, oh, my gosh. Like and then some people aren't as receptive as we've just talked about. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Then how do I engage with that?

Like, they're yelling at me. They're threatening to give me a bad review on Google. They're gonna, you know, call PSA and tell them I'm a horrible person because they know that t two zero six Wagner must be authentic. So that can be difficult. And then there's other things that are difficult where both good or bad, where I'm dealing with the families of my clients and either I deliver good news or bad news, meaning they think a collection is worth x and maybe I say it's worth two x or maybe I only think it's worth 10% of what they think it's worth.

And so sometimes it could be life changing money. Yeah. I really enjoy dealing with, you know, the common folk, you know, like the John Do's of the world that just maybe have been collecting for thirty or forty years and now they have a fantastic collection or a spouse was left this because their husband died and then she doesn't know what she has and she's a mess mentally, emotionally, financially. And I tell her that this collection is $2,150,000, and her house is worth 210,000. And she doesn't know how to react or what to say because her husband never even talked about the values and she didn't had no idea.

Now and she's got diabetes and her medicine is so expensive and now she can finally so it's it's all Brett. It go it runs the gamut every day. All these different emotions that I have to go through, and sometimes it does impact me in a good way or a not so good way. I wanna maybe as we're kinda winding down this conversation, talk about starting a business in the hobby in 2026. And we've already, you know, talked about the fact the importance of trust.

We've already talked about unregulated market, but I'm just curious on your end. And and I'm sure you you noticed new businesses and people doing things all the time, and, a lot stays the same, but then a lot changes. I guess if anyone out there listening is, you know, considering this, considering a business, maybe on they're on the precipice of this. Like, what sort of feedback or advice would you give them about maybe surprises, things to look out for, mistakes, those sorts of things in building a new new business in this in this calendar year? I think you have to have a rough business plan.

It doesn't need to be all dialed in because it's gonna take you years to to write it up and don't do that. Plus, business plans, people deviate from as they should. They pivot. They thought about this. That didn't work.

They gotta go over here, and that's wonderful. So, you know, once you have a rough business plan, understand that you are gonna have to pivot because not everything is going to work out as you think. Depending upon, like, what your goals are or what you're trying to achieve, sometimes when people get in the hobby, they buy too much inventory. They so for example, let's say during the off season of baseball, they buy a bunch of baseball cards because they think, okay. Well so spring training is coming up and x y z person is gonna be the next, you know, Babe Ruth, so we should load up on that.

So two things there. One, you know, like, the you're tying up all your money in these cards that on prospects that may or may not pan out, and you're not diversified. Because if you're buying all this inventory of this one person, it's a lottery ticket. Yeah. It could pan out, but a lot of times or most of the time, it doesn't.

So so I would say be careful with that. Also, manage your expenses. You don't need to go to every card show in the country. Don't do that. There are some there are some card shows you should probably go to to network, to learn, to see things, to attend some of the events, and that's wonderful.

But be be wise and be careful. Also, try and find, like, a a mentor or a mentor, maybe a couple of them. People who maybe from listening to different podcasts, you think these people would be great resources for you. Whether they're they could be good both geographically or maybe they speak the same language as you or maybe they collect the same thing as you. So, like, that that would be really important asset for you, and they can kind of, you know, give you tips or answer questions or show you the ropes.

So those are I think that's those are some good pieces of advice for someone who's starting out. There's a lot of excellent feedback from a long term business owner in this space. Michael, before I let you get out of here, back to an unregulated hobby, what has to stay true in an unregulated hobby with celebrities, record prices, influencers, new businesses, all these things taking place. What has to stay true for the hobby to remain healthy? Good people with good intentions.

I also think and I thought about this for quite a while now. The younger generation, so the the the kids well, they're not so kids, but people in their twenties and early thirties, they're gonna be the ones that carry the hobby forward in the next fifteen or twenty years plus. Right? And so they need to or we need to make sure that they're doing things the right way, that they're loyal and transparent, and they know what they're talking about, and they treat people the right way because, that could really kill the market in ten years as people maybe start to age out and retire while the next generation, which would be the people in their twenties and thirties, need to kinda take over, whether they run auction houses or card grading companies or what have you. So that's something to always, you know, be thinking about.

Always enjoy our conversations, Michael. You can find them at Baseball in the Attic. Looking forward to, doing this again in 2026. It's always fantastic. Brett, thank you for the great questions as always, and we'll talk soon.