what's going on everybody welcome back to passion to profession here on the stacking slabs network presented by my good friends at ebay this is the time of the week where we dig into the entrepreneurial and operational journey of individuals building cool things across the sports card industry this episode is going to be a little different this week this episode does not have a guest we are flying solo we had some schedules move around at the end of last week and i felt obligated to continue the momentum around this series and continue the consistency we were in that mode where it was really challenging to find a replacement guest in time and so i thought about doing an episode and looking back on the last quarter of conversations that we've had here on passion and profession and put together an episode that i think will be interesting and hopefully helpful for many of you out there i am someone who is building in the sports card industry i get inspiration from these guest conversations that i have from owners operators and entrepreneurs building in this space and so we'll consider this episode a reflection a reflection of the great guests that we've had over the last quarter a common theme that i've observed across those conversations and hopefully it leaves you something strong to hold on to as we move forward and i wanna call this one the work that brings collectors back the question is what gives someone a reason to come back come back to your shop come back to your stream send you another collection listen to another episode tell your friend about what you're doing i think we spend a lot of time talking about how we get someone's attention and i understand why you have to let people know you exist in the first place you have to give them a reason to check out your work they then they show up they spend time with you they spend money with you they trust you with something that matters to them what happens after that that's the part i've been thinking about as i've looked back on the last twelve conversations here on passion and profession we've had shop owners dealers breakers someone building a grading business someone who turned college football knowledge into a career and people building media and products around fans their businesses look very different their paths into the industry look different even their relationship with collecting looks different but i keep hearing them describe the work of earning another visit sometimes the work is helping someone understand a card sometimes it's answering a message sometimes it's knowing what a customer collects and remembering them when that card comes in the door sometimes it's making a decision that costs you a sale today because you care about how that person feels when they leave and sometimes it's hiring someone changing a process letting go of work that you've once done and owned and share it with someone else because you know that's the right thing to do i wanna talk about that today i also wanna talk about how it connects back to what i am building with the stacking slabs network try to make this personal these conversations have given me things to think about in my own business i hear someone talking about sorting cards or staffing a shop handing a stream over to another host and i reorganize the decision underneath it how do you grow something without losing the reason people cared about in the first place if you are working in cards thinking about working in cards or building something alongside your job i think there's a lot here for you and if you're a collector this is about your experience too these decisions shape the shops you visit the people you trust and the content you make a part of your week let's start with the person on the other side of the business first evan parker said something in our conversation that has stayed with me his career has taken him through xbox nascar the athletic and into the hobby the connection across those stops was content and community around things people cared about when we talked about nascar he reflected on the effort to bring in fans who hadn't been a part of the sport before the effort made sense every business wants to grow but he also fans who had been there some of those fans walked away some of the people who came from an experience went back to other interests i think that's a question worth asking the hobby when we talk about growth whose experience are we trying to improve you can get people to look at a card sale you can get them to watch a hit you can get them to recognize a name but do you have a reason to stay connected when that moment passes evan's reflection made me think about the collector who has been doing this for years the person who knows what they collect who searches ebay when the house settles down who wants to talk about cards that they've been chasing that person is a huge part of why i started stacking slabs mostly because i am that person i have a family i have responsibilities i have things happening outside of collecting and the cards still take up space in my life because i care about them when i sit down to record episodes like this i think about someone taking this conversation into their day they're driving they're working out they're doing things around the house they've chosen to spend time with that show i want them to leave with something that they can use a question about their collection an understanding of why they made a purchase a perspective they hadn't considered a reminder that other collectors are working through similar decisions that's something i have to keep in front of me as this network grows each show needs a reason to exist for the person listening look at gabe from card collector two he loved college football when bowman university came along he saw a category he wanted to spend time with he started sharing when he was buying and why he was buying he saw a room for someone to talk about college sports so he did the work he got into player comparison school schools products prices and the timing of when people pay attention he gave people more to consider than just names on a checklist that work led to a community and over time a relationship with rian johnson and a role at card collector too i think that part to pay attention to is usefulness that came from the job itself people had a reason to hear gabe again he understood something they cared about and kept helping them understand stephanie garcia mama breaks showed us another version of that she talked about committing to star wars and wrestling and creating break formats for people who had fewer options she understood those categories because she cared about them herself you hear all three stories and there's a question for your own work who are you spending enough time with to understand what they actually need for me that means staying close to collecting it means listening to people in the communities that our shows here at stacking slab slabs serve it means making sure a wrestling collector or a wnba collector hears someone who understands why those cards matter to them and it means having the discipline to say what a show is for if i can't explain why someone will want the next episode i need to spend more time on that idea i wanna stay with gabe for a minute because there's a difference between talking about a category and helping someone think through it in our conversation he walked through jeremiah love he was looking at bowman first autograph around forty dollars while cam scataboo and ashton genti were priced around one hundred and twenty or one hundred and forty dollars those were prices he described from that point of research he was thinking about the player the comparison the demand from notre dame collectors as someone who cares about notre dame that got my attention what i appreciated was hearing the thinking behind the purchase you had enough information to understand the decision and ask your own questions about it that's a standard i want to keep applying to stacking slabs when i talk about a card in my collection i want to explain why it belongs there what interests me what did i learn what did i have to give up what am i accepting by owning it the explanation gives you something to work with in your own collection you can disagree with my decision and still get value from the conversation shane walls gave us a view of how that knowledge works in a shop he's buying for several parts of any card exchange the cases the kids section card shows live selling local demand the same card doesn't play the same role in every part of the business shane has to understand who wants it where it belongs and how it fits with what the shop already has that knowledge gets built through time spent looking at cards learning categories and paying attention to people he described a routine of checking marketplaces studying what's happening you can hear the work behind his judgment leighton sheldon talked about a similar process from his years at leland's he would study auction results write down what happened repeating that work helped him develop an understanding of the market i like hearing that because we see the decision someone makes today and it can look like instinct but behind the decision are years of looking asking getting things wrong and learning some more for someone trying to work in this industry that should give you a place to start what are you learning that will help another person what can you explain what are you building judgment through repetition you don't need to know everything about cards gabe wasn't trying to cover everything stephanie didn't need a person around every product they spent time with the areas that interest them and made that knowledge useful i think about this with the network because there's temptation to cover whatever has the most attention to it that day but there's also value in returning to the things our audience is trying to work through how do you decide what to keep how do you make a purchase when there isn't a comp how do you collect a category where other people are telling you that there's no demand those questions keep coming back because collecting keeps giving us decisions to make if we can help you think through those decisions then there's something to listen to again that's where i see the connection between expertise and a business people begin to associate you with help that they can use then you have a responsibility to to keep doing the work that earned that association thinking about my conversation with grant slayton grant's a wealth of knowledge grant found a card for me years ago that i still think about my twenty fourteen andrew luck black finite one zero one he saw it in a showcase in nashville at nashville took a picture connected with the deal connected me with the dealer and i got the deal done i sent the card to psa it came back at ten it's in my been in my collection ever since it's one of my favorite cards grant had options in the moment he chose to connect a collector with the card he knew the collector wanted i remember that i brought it up when we recorded because it's part of how i think about grant when i hear his name i think about someone who helps people get to cards that matter to them that's a business's decision with an outcome that takes time to see you don't get to put every benefit on the receipt but the person remembers how you treated them grant also told us about pursuing a michael jordan one of one for five and a half to six years during that time he kept communicating with the owner including conversations about family the relationship continued even when the deal looked like it wasn't gonna happen and i think that matters if you only contact someone when you need something to sell them something they can feel it leighton talked about respecting the story behind collecting some cases you're dealing with the family that has lost someone those cards have been part of the person's life you're asking the family to trust you with the next step he described becoming a caretaker for the story that makes you think about the responsibility that comes back when buying a collection shane gave us a situation in the card exchange that puts this into practice someone brings in boxes and doesn't realize what they have the shop finds a red pmg shane described helping the owner consider grading and other selling options so they can get the most for the card you have expertise the customer has less information what do you do with that difference i think every operator has to answer that question through their own actions and as a collector i pay attention to the answer i wanna know the person helping me is willing to explain something that changes the deal i'm building a media business so the responsibility takes another form for me you give me your attention you hear me discuss people companies products and decisions the way i use that attention affects whether you want to keep listening a partnership has to make sense for the audience i'm asking to spend time with it a guest conversation has to have something worth hearing a topic has to do more than just fill an episode there's a business attached to all of it i want stacking partnerships to work i want the people supporting the network to see value from their investment and i wanna earn the next listen from you those things need to work together grant's story stays with me because i was the person on the other side of that decision i benefited from someone taking the time to understand what i cared about years later i still remember who helped me get that card recently i had a conversation with collins boyse i talked with him about his approach to life selling and i think a lot of collectors will recognize why it matters he described streams where people can hang out talk cards without buying anything when a card sells below what they expected he lets the buyer enjoy the purchase he doesn't make the room responsible for his own disappointment think about how that feels to the buyer you're watching because you like cards you're deciding whether something fits your collection and your budget you want room to make that decision when the experience respects that you have a reason to open up the next stream even if you didn't buy the last one josh o'daniel talked about this through the community he's been building at odc sports cards they have a discord where people spend time together outside of breaks fantasy football gaming conversations that give people something to do between purchases at the store opening people traveled in who had been a part of the streams for years josh was meeting some of the people in real life for the first time that says something about the relationship those people had built with the business and with each other they were willing to put in time to be there stephanie talked about remembering people and following up about that experience when someone buys into a break and the cards don't go their way josh and stephanie both have to manage a part of the experience they can't control which is what comes out of the box that puts attention on what they can control how they communicate how they ship how they treat people when the person feels recognized they come back there's a responsibility around what someone spends enjoying a community doesn't change what happened in a break a customer needs room to make decisions about their own money i appreciated hearing collins make participation without a purchase part of his approach that gives people a way to stay involved on their own turn we're gonna have a lot more conversations with individuals who are running live streams and excited this is an area i'm learning about but it's really interesting to understand the mindset and mentality of the people behind those businesses good friend jamieson long described what this looks like at port city sports collectibles the team gets to know what people collect they reach out when something comes in that might fit their collection they notice when someone who visits hasn't been around he also described the new arrivals case people know where to look for cards that come in yesterday there's a reason to stop back in and see what's changed one is recognition the other is experience designed around a behavior of a collector both give someone a reason to return for stacking slabs i think about the role that each show plays in someone's week i appreciate all of you listening and i think a lot about the time and investment you spend listening to content on this network there are collectors who want to spend time with football there are people who want a conversation around wrestling cards there are wnba collectors who want their category to have a a place in space and there are people building careers in the industry who want to hear from someone working through the same things that's part of why i'm trying to support industry professionals with hobby jobs the question i have to keep asking is whether we're giving each of those people something worth returning to another show adds another responsibility to serve a specific individual i want the experience to feel like we understand why you're there that's why that's what i hear when collins josh stephanie and jameson talk about their customers they're paying attention to the person and to what brings that person back the variety of conversations that we've had here on passion and profession get me to think about the diversity of operating styles and i think this is where these conversations get into the work that you might not see in a quick clip on social media dave runs dt sports cards people send him cards to submit for grading those cards matter to the people who own them sometimes they're worth a lot of money sometimes the significance goes beyond value i asked dave about trust he talked about transparency he wants people to see where the cards are in the process and understand what's happening as the business grew answering those questions one at a time became harder he moved through different ways of keeping people informed and worked with a developer on an order tracker he also described checking the cards each step of the way verify what came in verify it against the submission check it as it moves through the process that's how a promise becomes something you can rely on there's work underneath it josh gave us another example he said their ebay breaks typically ship the next day he talked about employees covering messages and the responsibility of getting the volume of cards out that doesn't happen because someone puts a customer service in a description it happens because people have jobs to do time to do them and a process to follow stephanie reached a point with bowman draft where she was filling four cases a day she had been sorting and shipping herself then the volume exceeded what she was able to do after being alive she saw what the next revenue goal would require from the business how many hours on camera how many cases how much sorting how much shipping how many people that's something i think anyone building in this space should spend time with if the demand shows up can you deliver the experience you're offering collins described trying to figure out inventory sku system shipping cost tracking he was open about parts they were trying to solve each card is its own item and the work of tracking everything gets complicated as the volume grows i appreciated that honesty you can have demand and still have to do work on the business and how it operates for me the equivalent is what happens around recording researching a guest preparing the conversation getting the files to production reviewing the episode writing the description making sure people know what the conversation is about promotion everything else each step affects what you get as a listener a conversation can have value and still need work be before it becomes an episode that you can spend time with as the network grows i need to understand how that work gets done across the shows where does something get delayed where does someone need something from me what can be decided without me where am i repeating work that needs a process this week is a perfect example this is like operator inception outside of my control had a guest had a push out for another week i still had a responsibility to fill out this episode didn't have enough time to go scramble get another guest but there was enough content here that i could go back to previous episodes dig in and create an episode for you and that's what we do here collins also gave us a detail about the store that deserves attention sales inside the store weren't covering rent and payroll collections bought there and sold through other channels were helping support the operation so you have to understand where the business earns its money someone coming back is a signal you want to see you still need to know what it costs to serve them and how the operation pays for the work that's something i have to understand with the network too research production and distribution take time and resources a show needs an audience it can serve and a way to fund the work of serving the audience both belong in the decision those questions are part of serving the audience if i want people to return i need the work behind the show to support the experience i think about the customer who has to ask where their cards are at then i think about the producer waiting for a file or a guest waiting to know what they need to do uncertainty creates more work for everyone involved dave's order tracker is a reminder that systems can help people more give more visibility while giving the owners more time the goal is an experience that stays dependable as more people participate the part of the conversation with dave that hit close to me was when dave talked about reaching a limit of what he can do himself he knows adding help will create capacity he also is worried about mistakes in quality when someone else starts handling the work i understood that we talked about it in the interview because i recognize it in my own business you build something a certain way you develop certain standards you take responsibility for the outcome handing part of the work to another person asks you to trust the person you've you trust the process you've created and sometimes the process is still living in your head i know this is a problem for me that makes it hard for someone else to succeed they need to know what you're looking for what they can decide and when something needs your attention josh talked about the first time someone else hosted a stream chris came in and josh had to get comfortable with another person representing his business he wanted the standards to hold while chris had the room to himself this distinction that distinction matters to me as i build the network with other hosts the person bringing the conversation to life needs to have their own perspective their own relationships their own interest in that category at the same time someone who listens across our shows should feel care for the collector in each one there needs to be a reason for the conversation and preparation behind it i can hold that standard while giving a host a room to make their the show theirs that's work i have to get better at as the owner josh estimated that eighty percent of his time now goes to the work behind the camera and twenty percent goes to being on it he's still enjoying hosting but the business asks different things for him as it continues to grow stephanie described the value of her time on camera and the support needed around that work jamieson described stepping away from transactions so he can look at inventory staffing events in the direction of port city you can hear them learning where they need to spend their attention their bit the business grows and the job changes with it that's one of the things i'm taking from these interviews i enjoy recording i enjoy asking questions i enjoy getting into cards with someone who cares about them i also need to think about where the network is going which audiences can it serve what a partnership needs to accomplish which ideas deserve more investment what support a show needs to keep getting better if all of that only happens after the production is finished it gets whatever attention is left and when you care about the work you can find more to do i spent years in b to b marketing and tech before doing this full time i understand that a business needs direction resources and people who know what they're responsible for applying that to something i built myself asks something very different from me the guests haven't given me an answer that removes discomfort they've given me examples of people working through it that helps it's therapy in a way it makes the decision something i can examine and act on what work needs me what work needs my standards written down what decisions am i putting off because i'm doing it myself because it feels familiar i think those are the questions worth carrying into your own business or perhaps your own collecting when i was preparing this episode i thought a lot about my conversation with beau thompson one million cubs beau talked about building an ebay business that had around sixty thousand listings that's a lot of work the inventory the organization the orders the time spent finding cards to ship then he started to sell on ebay live he described learning what a stream required what schedule he was able to maintain and how fulfillment worked over time the live business became began to make more sense for the goals he was trying to reach he gave an example of an order spread across different boxes finding those cards took time and a live show he was shipping from the cards sold in that show the way the work happened changed the economics of his own time that led led to him to take down most of his buy it now listings and focus the model around the live model that was working for him i think about how hard of a decision that can be you build an old system you spent time making it work you know how to do it there's history attached to it then there's evidence that asks you to change dave had gone through versions of that too opening product led to breaking changes in product cost push him towards grading he kept finding a way to work in cards and what the business did evolve along the way sam gordon described how overtime tests ideas i love that conversation with sam make sure you go back and check it out they try formats watch what happens and keep learning he talked about needing one out of ten or one out of twenty tests to work in order to find what actually works i hear that and think about the room i need to make an experiment when you're responsible for putting out shows every day every week maintaining the schedule can take all of your attention you still need to learn what else will serve the audience sam also talked about seeing people show up for an event that told over time something about the relationship with the audience beyond what they had seen on the screen for me a response from a listener can help in the same way someone takes an idea from an episode into their own collecting someone shares a conversation with a friend someone asks a question that tells me what we need to explore next downloads matter revenue matters i need to pay attention to the numbers because the business supports my family and the work of the network i also need to understand the behavior behind them what are people returning for what do they find useful enough to share what are we learning that changes what we make the lesson i'm taking from beau is to look at the work as it exists today a model that helped you get here deserves credit the decision about what comes next needs the numbers and the experience you're having right now and the lesson i'm taking from sam is to keep making room to learn you can't decide whether an idea under an idea serves people if you never put it in front of them that means defining what you're trying to learn putting enough care into an the attempt and being willing to change your approach based on what happens that's part of keeping a business useful over a long period of time there is another connection across the interviews that i don't wanna lose these decisions happen inside people's lives their families their finances their time their health the responsibilities they carry outside of the business josh spent five years building before leaving an eighteen year career at ups he talked about his wife's role in sorting shipping and the pace of growth there's a household behind that decision and there's work behind the scenes before you see an employee count stephanie talked about leaving teaching and having that career available if she needed to return beau talked about treating the work like a business and looking at the numbers before making the move those details matter because someone listening can hear a story and feel feel they need to follow the same path but you have to understand the conditions around the decision i spent four years building stacking slabs without taking a dollar for a long time it was a passion project i had worked in b to b tech and marketing and i had this thing i kept coming back to because i love the conversations about collecting then i had to think about what the vision required if i wanted to build a network and a network and give this work the attention it needed something had to change that meant looking at what i was building as a business and looking at what my family needed from me i have a wife i have three daughters there's a life that the business needs to support when i hear an operator talk about that the business needs to support when i hear an operator talk about the decisions to leave a job i care about the numbers and the circumstances what had they proven what support did they have what did the next stage require what were they prepared to give up i also care about why they wanted to do it jameson talked about the effect his career on being present with his family stephanie talked about sharing what she loves with her kids those are part of a business's story i shared with stephanie the experience of bringing my daughter to indie card exchange and opening squishmallow cards i saw her get excited and organize what she had that experience mattered to me as a dad it also reminded me why the people treat collectors the way people treat their collectors matter a shop visit can become something a family remembers someone feeling welcome can shape where they wanna do it again that's part of what i want to keep connected to as i build stacking slabs i want this business to support my family i want to keep enjoying collecting i want to make the work that gives people something they can carry into their own lives there are days when the ambition makes it harder to appreciate what's happening already bo and i talked about that too the numbers improve and you're thinking about the next goal and i recognize that i have a hard time celebrating milestones and victories i can be talking about cards and supporting my family and my attention is still on what i haven't built yet so i think there's another question to ask alongside how much you want to grow what do you want the business to make possible in your own life your answer needs to place in the decisions that you're making when i put these decisions or conversations together i see a responsibility to keep earning people's participation evan from onnit reminded me to stay connected to the people who care about what you're building gabe showed me what happens when knowledge becomes useful to a community shane and leighton showed how knowledge creates responsibility when someone trusts you with their cards grant gave me a firsthand example of a decision i still remembered years later collins described an experience where people have room to participate without buying josh and stephanie and jamieson made returning customers something you can understand through what happens in the business each day dave made trust visible through checks and communication beau showed the willingness to change his model sam showed the work continuing to test and learn those are twelve conversations and i can apply this apply the same question what gives someone a reason to come back for the stacking slabs network i want the reason to be clear in the work when you spend time with an episode i want you to understand what the conversation is helping you think through when you when you add a show i want the community it serves to have a reason to care when we work with a partner i want the connection to make sense to the person listening and i need the processes and people around those things to help us keep delivering i'm still building i still got my construction hat on i'm still learning where i need help where i need to make a decision and where i need to leave room for another person's perspective these interviews here on passionate profession have given examples i can return to when i'm working through those questions if you're building in the hobby take one of these ideas into the work you're doing next week look at the last experience someone had with your business what did they understand when they left what did they have to ask for what would you do to make them return if you wanna work in this space start with what you can make useful to someone else learning about a category explaining your process helping someone solve a problem and if you're a collector think about the people you keep choosing to spend time and money with there's a reason you trust them there's a reason you open their streams visit their shops and listen to their content when someone earns that from you tell a damn friend support the work you want to keep having in the hobby the people building those experiences need customers listeners and communities who want to continue i really appreciate profession a part of your week i appreciate the operators who have taken the time to tell us how they're doing the work and i appreciate my friends at ebay for supporting these conversations if an episode from this series made you think about your own business or your next step in the hobby as a collector send it to someone who would appreciate it or hell go reach out to the guest tell them you enjoyed the conversation that stuff means a lot i'll keep bringing you the conversations and the questions i'm learning from as i'm building this network we'll return back to normal with a guest next week but hopefully you enjoyed this conversation and got some value from me looking back on the last twelve episodes thanks for spending time with me happy building happy collecting i'll talk to you soon