Excited for, this is the final episode. This will be the final episode when it goes live, a passionate profession in 2025. And I'm very excited about the conversation. We had Janie on earlier this year to profile her her role at eBay, and it was great. Loved the energy.

Loved all the dialogue. And as I was thinking about filling in some guests before the end of the year, I wanted to bring Janie back on. Janie works in product at eBay in the collectibles division and felt like there was a lot that we could talk about in this one. And we went back and forth on topic, and I'll share that in a minute. But it's gonna be fun.

I think this will be a great, conversation digging into the perspective of somebody who is working hands on on the biggest marketplace that sells trading cards in the universe. And also, consequently, the sponsor of this this series. So, Janie, it's been a minute since we chatted. How are you doing? Brett, thanks for having me back.

I'm glad that's a signal. I'm glad I got invited back, so it's an honor. It's a privilege. And, also, a little bit of pressure to be the last episode of the year, so thanks for giving me that spot. Yeah.

Closing it out strong. So we'll let listeners in on the kind of behind the scenes. And I love this because sometimes when I share stuff, guests are just like, sure. Let's go with it. But I love the back and forth always.

Like, no. Like, let's look at this or let's do things a little differently. And I sent you a topic, and your response back was it just hit me. I was like, alright. We're we're we're going.

We're cooking with gas. And and I'm gonna read kind of and this is what we're gonna be talking about. But you said, I I wanna do something maybe a little more provocative, and you said the the the context is the hobby is quietly rewiring itself, and most collectors are watching the wrong signals. And I think there's a ton we can unpack there, but maybe as a jump off point. When you made mention of the hobbyist quietly rewiring itself, what what did you mean by that?

I I love getting in a good debate, whoever really would entertain me for that. And I think we see a lot of headlines around, you know, this card sold for x amount of millions of dollars, and that's what drives the market. But if if you look at, like, some if you look at other signals, things like supply, obviously, which eBay, we have the most of, but supply in terms of what is available, what's not available, and then also liquidity, which is kind of a hotter topic now too. We talk about liquidity and velocity. And velocity is kind of a newer one.

That kind of is something that I I had a have some background in from some previous my some, like, previous roles, but, like, that's becoming more of a term is velocity velocity. We talked more about, like, what that even means, but it's really not like, well, this thing sold for x amount, and so the hobby's back. Like, the hobby's always back. It's always in. But it's not I I I kinda get a little bit annoyed when people are, like when when just the headline is the $10,000,000 item.

Like, I love that, but that's actually not the health of the market. So I I'm with you. I hear I mean, it it that the the attention is always on the big sales, and there's very little context on, all those areas and those buckets that you talked about, and there's very little dialogue. You're behind the scenes looking and thinking about those things regularly, whether it's velocity, liquidity. I guess, why do you think most collectors are so captivated by those headlines?

And I will call them the wrong signals and aren't maybe paying attention to the things that are really moving the market that you're referencing? I mean, I don't think I don't think they're, like, the wrong like, I don't I don't wanna be, like, the the the villain here on the in up in the category. I think what I like, it's not the wrong signals. I would say it's it's some some signals are just distractions, and some signals are not maybe relevant to how you collect. Like, for me, it that's not a very relevant signal for how I collect.

I mean, I'm not, you know, dropping $10,000,000 a day on collectibles. But I do buy and sell as a means to grow and and, you know, have more assets in a sense. Like, I I didn't start with, you know, all the stuff in my background. I started with this very small amount, and then I traded up or I, you know, flipped something, and I did this or I held this. And and all of those signals and if you see that collectively in the market, you start to that shows a lot of health, and you can kinda start tracking that across different types of markets.

Like, you look at, like, a card letter index or you look at, you know, any you know, our sold items or even our new price guide. Right? Like and you you can see the fluctuations, but you will and you and it's a good it's a better, I think, signal too of the health of the market, not just what popped, and that might be a flash in the pan. And I think that is where I you know, I me as my own as a personal collector, just personally, I look at I have a mix of things that are not very liquid. They don't have a high velocity, but they're really personal to me.

And then when I'm looking at, like, well, you know, I I I'm only allocated an x amount of money that my wife will let me spend on net new. Like, I think about it as, like, net new money into my collectibles. And so I need items that have some velocity to them. And that is a different those are different signals, and it's a different mix. I this is great.

And I I'm glad you you I wanted to, like, go towards Janie the collector when we're talking about supply, liquidity, and velocity and how you're thinking through things. And, like, let's dig into that example of, like, a signal and maybe, like, a card. Like, what is a what is a profile of car a card that you might purchase, and you make that purchase based on some of those signals that you're seeing. And maybe just so listeners can have the full context to make sure that as we progress in this conversation, they they know from one collector's perspective, like, how you are looking at these signals. Maybe give some sort of example of something in recent memory.

Sure. I'm look. Like, just as, like, a behavior in my own my own my own behavior here, for velocity. I don't just look at comps. It's a it's a point.

But I also look at how many times did that specific card, or that variation change hands and and what time period. And so I, like, create I have, like, just nerdy Excel files, which I'm sure everyone does too. But I look at that as, like, a point in time for that particular card. How many times does it change hands in a particular marketplace or in that environment as a kind of a means of of velocity? Liquidity is a pretty, you know, pretty easy one to understand.

I think it's just like or, like, time to cash. A lot of people will say that time to cash. And that's that's important to me too. And that is a little bit more of that demand matching to the supply. And I don't always get a rate, so don't you know, I'm not again, I'm not a guru here.

But these these are just things I look at. And because if you if you think about comps, it's actually sometimes a trailing metric. You know, if you look at, like, oh, this card last sold. Right? That technically is a trailing metric.

So if you're thinking about, like, what do what's my next purchase? Everyone has their own metrics, and I'm just telling you mine, which velocity and and liquidity, and there's some some some metrics in there and then the supply in that market. So, I mean, I know that you're a big WNBA fit like, person, and I really tried to corner that market a while ago, like, early WNBA before Caitlin Clark. You know, it kind of, like, how do I wanna position? How then I start to sell that now that the demand is there too?

Kind of like some of my buddies that got into early f one, like, before Verstappen even. And now, you know, kinda then you saw that big peak Verstappen became was a rookie, and that set big jump in in valuation there. And that market has kind of, like, now a new base. And so now my buddies are are kind of figuring out what do they wanna sell and how are they gonna, you know, go from there. So I do look at, like, smaller markets.

It's sometimes easier for me to to think about supply. And then last season, easy one with on eBay because you can you can track seller to buyer, seller to buyer, seller. Okay. And then maybe it's the number of times that things turn that turn that card around, and there you go. I love, this is I'm glad you brought up in during kinda your description of that comps.

I feel like anybody in this hobby who's bought, sold, or traded might say that we as a industry are comp crazy, overrelying on maybe the last sales data. And that's just it's data, and it can help you, but it's just one piece of the story. And I thought it was interesting you referred to as kinda like this, you know, trailing data. Do do you think we as a industry or us as collectors will evolve from just looking at maybe, like, eBay sold listings or sales history in card ladder and try to price our cards based on the sales data, in light of or comp data, especially in light of, like, us getting into all these other signals and ways to look at the hobby to future price cards, you know, months or maybe even years from now? I I think comps can be very personal too, and I think there comps has context.

So when you look at that last comp, you don't know if that person was trying to get really liquid because they were then going and I mean, you you know, you can now tie that. You there's there are other vehicles now too. So, like, do I want it do I wanna take 80% of a comp so I can get cash quicker? Do I would I I hold? Will you know, hey.

I don't need the cash now. I'm actually liquid, and I can I can finance the next purchase I want? So I'll hold the line, and I'll make the new comp. I'm gonna go a 110, 120%. That's totally your call.

And and so, like, I also think about those things too. And and then then, again, you go back to the comp was, like, you know, just from a math perspective, it equals comp. But to get there, it was, like, time to cash, velocity was there, that supply match, and then you get to that's the result of the comp. I do think these things are way more interconnected and related than them sometimes we talk about. We again, we always like to talk about comps, and it is.

It it's a headline making metric, but it's more of, an end metric and consideration because collectors think about and it's very personal. My my equation is very different in my comp. It's not just 80% of, like, the last one. It could be, again, you know, you've gotta be you know, you like, I don't know what you're, you know, you're planning to get into next, you know, or, like, you know, maybe you're trying to finance for the next WNBA set, and you might be okay accepting the 80% comps right now. But now, like, in a normal period of, you know, a year, there's not another WN base set big set coming out or maybe in it just then you're like, I'm I'm holding the line.

I'm a 100100% all the way and, like, diamond hands. Like, fair. I I I feel this feels like we're getting into we're moving from, like, elementary conversation about comps into this, maybe, masters led conversation about comps because this I've never heard anyone talk about it like this, but I'm I'm very excited about where this conversation is going. And I wanna maybe move over to and maybe you can add your collector perspective. I I don't wanna have you not do that, but I also, like, wanna make sure I call out when we have your, product perspective.

And I'm interested in when we're talking about signals, like, from your seat at eBay, what are maybe some of the most important changes happening, beneath kind of the surface and maybe stuff we don't see on a day to day basis? So we you know, I I think as you've seen the last year, we've been trying to bring more data signal to a customer, and and they can make the decision too. Like, we're not try we're not trying to do all of that work that maybe it's personal to me, it's personal to you. I think we've realized too, and I think that you've seen this in the market. Some people, you know, they consider pop pop counts as part of that that too.

Some people aren't super integrating. They're they, you know, they're they just want raw. Pop count might not be a great, you know, kind of secondary metric or something that they look at. They really do kind of focus on a few different things. So I think there's a lot more signal that is in consideration.

Bringing that into one view instead of, like, 12 tabs, which I think I've talked about before, is how many how many tabs or how many apps do you jump around to then finally land on the thing that you wanna buy, or is this the right time to sell? And maybe you have your own you maybe there's a it's not time to cash. It's not velocity. It's not liquidity. It's whatever Brett's metric is or set of metrics, and maybe you'll come up with something that's like trademark.

But, like, I you know? And and that's what you do, and that is yours your strategy. And so we I think that the the market is is I appreciate that the market is very transparent, and it's becoming more that way. You look even at, like, a, like, a courtyard or companies that are built on on on on chain, and you can see you could see velocity. You can see how many times that's actually really great exercises.

Is just literally go into a you know, chat GPT or Perplexity or whatever your favorite your favorite chat is, or you can do this yourself, and just analyze the transaction of a card or a set of cards that are being ripped and offered and traded and accepted on Courtyard and on Polygon, I think. And you will see some really fascinating behavior, and you're gonna see velocity. You're gonna see liquidity. How how how through your studying of the signals, especially, like, supply, liquidity, velocity, How are you seeing those signals behave differently this year maybe than in years past? Maybe this is just my perception, but I feel like people have a lot of FOMO right now.

And I don't know what it is. Maybe, again, it's just a feeling in the air or something. But and I I I feel this sense of urgency, like, that people want more immediacy in a lot of things, a lot of experiences, even beyond collectibles. We are way more immediate than we used to be. We are way more instant than we used to be.

And whether it's a seller that feels like, need to get this card back. It's been in grading forever. I need to sell this thing. I'm gonna miss the window. I don't want this player to get hurt.

You know? Like, I really wanna sell this thing. Or a buyer that is like, I need to get liquid. There is something I really want, and I know it's at the right price point. And so I just feel like there's this urgency, and people feel way more lasered in on what they wanna do, which I think is really great.

But the maybe the pipes, the operational, there's some things that are just still in the way of being able to get there and and, you know, support the seller and the buyer in in in that sense. But on the, yeah, on the signal side, that's probably only only adding to the urgency of in the FOMO. If you're seeing great price, you know, badges or you're this, I think your brain is like, it's it's got 15 emojis next to it. I must buy it. It says, like, amazing price.

I, this triggers a day I had. This is, like, maybe a year or so ago, but it relates to what you're just talking about. My I was running one morning, and my running shoes got absolutely destroyed. They they I needed to replace them, but I needed new running shoes. And I got back to my desk and ordered running shoes, and then they showed up hours later on my front door.

And that I remember, that night, we ordered dinner, and it came to our house, didn't have to cook, and then, you know, sat down and, put on something with my wife and watching Netflix. And I remember, like, walking upstairs that night, like, think reflecting on my day and just thinking about how we live in this world now where, like, anything we want, basically, if we have the money, we can just get it based right now and not have to go to do the work. And so my, like, view about the hobby, I think about that, like, consumer behavior and, like, how we are as people in demand and what we want access to. And then you what you you just said about it just, like, triggered in my mind about, wow. This is very much integrated in the hobby.

This, like, this desire for immediacy and sell things now, get things now, do you do you think that, like, constant motion from everybody in this space, do you think that ultimately, like, is is is really good for the growth of our industry, or do you feel like, you know, there is still areas, whether it's infrastructure, collector behavior, areas still that can be worked on and improved. Like, how do you think about that change and just, like, the desire to have things happen right now? How do you think that influences, like, the hobby right now? I I think you can look at other markets and how like, there's a foundational layer of behavior. And if that swings one way too much to the right, too much to the left, you never want, like, the bottom to fall out.

And I think in the hobby, it's part of, like, that market health. It's like, what are you going after and chasing? And if you're going after, you know wow. Like, again, the headline. This card or this collectible in this market just sold for x.

But if the trading volume in that part of that market is quite low, the risk goes up. In terms of if the demand, for some reason, directs their attention from here and all of a sudden starts going over there. And now you have this asset that there is no demand for because it was such so you were it was so thin to begin with. The variability is very high, but it's so thin to begin with. And I don't think maybe peep you know, sometimes it's really it's it's kinda like the stock market in a sense sometimes when you think about, well, I have these blue chip assets, and, you know, those don't make the news.

Mhmm. It's a sleeper thing. Then you have, like, these more boom or bust. I mean, may also maybe growing up in the Silicon Valley, like, I it it some people do feel like that, like, that they're going all in or, know, they're really big on this one piece of the market maybe. And but it's not just all comps because you have to look at the health of that market.

Is it gonna be around? How long are you gonna stay in that market? Volatility is fine. It's fine. But if there's no real foundation for it, then maybe it's there's no there's no market in a month, two months.

Maybe there's no no market in it. I don't know. But, like, that's something to just I think that people need to consider as well, and it goes back again to your metrics. And so a lot of there's data out there. There's like I said, you can you can also kind of proxy.

Use you know, like for likes, you know, or wherever you can find the public data. Like I said, car ladder, you know, we all we all look at the we probably all we all look at the same tools. Mhmm. We all look at the same signals. We just are looking at them slightly different.

And I think that this this coming year will be really interesting. I guess I can't talk about forward sync. I think I for me as a collector I'm a have to nix that one. Me as a collector, I I'm older. I mean, I have kids now.

And, like, my habits are different right now. I mean, I'm a little bit more I'm an old I'm an old soul in the sinks now. I I my collecting habits are very different. I'm dabbling even in in thing in in some of my buddies are, like, rolling their eyes. I'm like, I'm I'm getting a little bit into time timepieces now.

And they're like, oh my god. Why? I'm like, I don't know. Because I'm I'm looking at sick like, I'm kinda just interested to see if I can find, like, my own strategy for timepieces. I'm like, I'm really like, ugh.

And yeah. So, like, I'm I'm actually kind of, like, exploring different types of collectibles too. I dabble in some sports mem, but I mainly focus on cards. I mean, there's lot more data in cards too. So I also find that most fascinating.

If you're, like, a data nerd, I I think it's the most fascinating part of the market that you can analyze and build your own strategy around. You also are probably gonna get the most signal or the volume of signal to be able to kinda use as your playground. I love it. I wanna dig in just on supply a little bit further. Obviously, the supply on eBay is insane, the largest in the world.

I I just talk every other week with Tory at DC Sports eighty seven and just get, like you know, they're one of the largest sellers in the trading card category on eBay, and I'll see their mail on a day to day basis, and it's just crazy. Like and all of these cards are gonna be scanned and listed and put on eBay. So the supply is wild, but I feel like when we talk about supply, it's always very emotional from a collector perspective. How does someone, like, who works on a product team at a company that is, you know, hosting all of this supply, like, how do you look at it maybe a little more objectively than, you know, a collector being very emotional about, you know, supply and demand and how we reference it? Yeah.

EBay eBay does have the most selection, so we want to remain that way of, like, if you wanna see what's out there you know, we talk sometimes about, like, the market's way more fragmented, and I find that to actually be a good thing because we we actually can aggregate that. We do. Like, you look at Golden, you look at TCG player who who we've acquired as well. And for Golden, we just literally launched that test, right, to pull in. Now every time you search on eBay, you also could be seeing Golden listings.

Didn't originate on eBay. First time ever. You know? And I think that's really cool that, like, you can be searching for something, like an Ohtani rookie or something, and all of sudden, it's like, oh, Golden's also selling this too. Like, I think that's it's a good thing for a collector to just be able to have a one view and not be having to jump around and in and out of different platforms and trying to I mean, the hunt is is fine.

I love a hunt. But also to just again, it goes back to the supply. Like, if you're trying to just I just need a lay of the land. What's out there right now? And when we look at supply when I look at supply, we we look at the trends, obviously, of what what's coming up in terms of launches, what do we have in terms of cards in the market, raw, graded, how are those pipes working, Where are the bottlenecks?

I think that's an interesting one too now that we're now that you start talking about, you know, cards coming in, cards going out, cards coming back in. You know, we we have eBay live too, and the that's a totally different flywheel. And, you know, you talk about velocity, and, like, you talk about volume two of cards that get open in a daily basis. Like, wow. Like, insane.

And how much of that get gets back into the marketplace? How much of that just sits in someone's garage until they I'm gonna get to when I get to it kind of thing. So I that those are things that I'm also, like, curious about of the appetite and the velocity of how people are opening product. I mean, it's it's been like that for at least the last two years, right, in case breaks. And now you have repacks, and you have different formats, and you have surprise sets, and you got this, and you got that.

So I think the the bottlenecks of where is it being built up. Is it built up offline right now? Is it built up in being you know, everyone wants to grade their cards right now. I think that's great too. But that that's a bottleneck.

Is it built where are the where where are things being built up? And then once that it's open or once that, you know, that that pipe opens itself back up again, then all of sudden, you're getting a flood of its supply. You see that buildup, though, too, it says. Right? Something launches with this Pokemon a new Pokemon product or a new or WNBA, the evolution of that.

You see the raw cart. You see it sealed in the raw, then it goes grading up, and then eventually it comes back in. Then now now it's now it becomes a repack, and now it becomes this. So it's it's it's very interesting to look at the pipes and how fast, how slow, what the friction is, and how you can then assess, am I getting in? Am I gonna where would I wanna buy or play when that comes into play again in the marketplace?

If that makes sense. Yeah. I I I've never met anybody any collector, and I have all these conversations with collectors who have ever complained about there being too much supply on eBay. I feel like that's, like, the secret weapon of eBay. It's it has the most supply, and so collectors who love to hunt can dig around for eBay for a card or, you know, set up safe searches.

I I didn't I I'm very interested in the golden element of bringing in other other, you know, marketplace data into eBay. I I guess question on that, because I'm super curious, had is is this the first time that eBay has done something like that in the trading card category? And, like, what have you learned from from that so far? Yes. It is.

And, you know, I'm I guess the reason too I'm bullish on is we acquired two two inventory sources with very different inventory. TCG player, very different than Golden. And it's like, why aren't these things connected? Why are you know, and and not like everything has to look like eBay, but just in a what's gonna make sense for a customer? Maybe you're searching for, you know, for something on Pokemon and well, if TCG player has it or Golden has it and, you know, and and then you're talking about signal.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes. It's a it can be overwhelm I think it can be overwhelming to like, when my like, when I'll have you know, whether it's my wife who's not really big into collecting or when we do user studies, right, or you just talk to anyone that's not, like, really, really deep in the hobby, to see so much choice can be quite overwhelming or even where to start.

And so I I love that we have the most supply. We'll continue. You know, we and and that is something that, like, the cross listing work that we've done for search for golden, it's been very cool. I'm very happy with it right now. And I'm making sense of that.

And then you kinda put the you put the the real test is then on the search. Right? Like, how relevant then if you're if you're now querying a ton of new inventory, it comes with its own new set of problems, which are actually pretty fascinating to to tackle. But, yeah, this is the first time that this is we've ever done this, and I think it's a it's a cool you know? How do you how do you list something that didn't start from an eBay store?

Like, how do you search for like, literally, didn't start from an eBay store, which cool. So It I've I'm so curious on this, and I don't wanna completely derail us. But, obviously, like, as you're talking through that and I know this is different. It's a different scenario with the relationship with PSA and how that's evolved with eBay this year. Do you feel like this, you know, I always think of, like, Apple App Store when these sorts of things go on in my head.

Do you feel like this more more integration, more bringing in partners? Do you think do you think this is going to be more of a a thing that collectors get used to, as we kinda think about how we buy, sell, trade, like, in making it easier on the collector to, you know, transact and eBay kinda being a central location for for that. Yeah. I I hope so. Is that there's ease, there's trust.

You're you're looking in the market. There is consolidation in the market in different areas. You have to be living under a rock if you haven't noticed some of the news. So there's signal for certain that there is consolidation certain certain instances. I think where eBay plays in that and our supply is is, like, the aggregation of that selection, the aggregation of that demand.

Because it's one thing too to have the most supply, but but you also have to have the demand. You have to have a lot of demand or else you're getting you know, that that is an unhealthy market. Kinda go again, goes back to, like, that balance of supply liquidity velocity. So that's also, though, another area. Like, not not only did we, you know, pull in listings from Golden, but we also then did we created the ability for you to sign in with your eBay credentials on Golden.

And, you know, I see that as another thing of, like, making it hey. I'm an eBay customer. Why can't I sign in to Golden? Why why can't you save my my settings? Why can't why do I have to fill all this stuff out again?

It's already saved on eBay. Just make it, you know, make it easy. Yes. This is my head is spinning, and I feel like I'm gonna I'm gonna try to get myself back on track because I I could go do a whole another conversation about this topic alone. But I wanna hit liquidity.

And you've talked about a lot of stuff that I wanted to talk about already. But one of the one of the buckets that I wanted to hit on is, like, where liquidity from your observations might break down in areas that collectors don't necessarily, expect. Is there anything as you're thinking about, like, the wiring and liquidity being a big bucket? Like, a lot of us, like, take that, I think, for granted based on profile of card. But I'm curious just based on your research and learning, is there any callouts that you've made that you think on the liquidity side that you think might benefit, collectors out there?

I I think the the the liquidity the liquidity piece have a few factors, I think, that play into it. It's, like, that speed. Right? Like, time to cash. It's price integrity.

How much do you trust? Whatever you again, if you go back to a comp, you have to set something. So do you trust that signal that you're even set setting? Or and not I mean, I'm sure you all of us can all of us as collectors have made mistakes by buying buying the, quote, unquote, the wrong things or, you know, buying things that really have don't have a great second market to them. And and for instance, a PSA eight and a PSA nine of that card might have very different liquidity, if you wanna call it, like, a liquidity score metric.

I kind of equate it to, like, the housing market. Right? Like, if you there's a house for sale for $10,000,000, and then, you know, and you're on Redfin or Truly or whatever, like, you know, and but and then there there's a bunch of housing neighborhood for, like, a million dollars or whatever. I live in California. So Good clarification.

Let me let me just and you get that batch. It's like hot home. Well, because you got, like, 50 people going in on a weekend looking for a home for a million dollars in California because that is kind of the average price of a home right now. You guys are crazy out there. We are crazy.

I know. But but, you know, but that's the reality is, like, that to me is a signal of liquidity. Like, the the fact that there's 50 people lining up, you probably gonna get fourteen, fifteen offers on that house. That house that was priced at $1,000,000 might go for 1.6, 1.7, whatever that is. That $10,000,000 house might sit on the market for over a year.

It gets priced down to 7 and a half million dollars. It will probably sell. But, like, that those are very different. Mhmm. And and you those are very different strategies, and you can talk about comps all day long, but it really is about that liquidity and the okay.

You know, who like, the the velocity of that and the the demand and how many and so you can literally visually see that on any given weekend if you just go to the if you just look at a listing on a house and go go to a $10,000,000 house wherever you are or 50 you know, $2,000,000 house, walk through that thing, look at how many people are actually in the house, and then go to, like, the an average comp and look at how many people are in that. That's amazing. A great visual. You mentioned velocity. I I I used to think about sales velocity all the time when I was trying to crunch numbers, working in tech, supporting our enterprise sales reps, and trying to just make sense of us trying to get into these accounts and how quickly they sold for.

And I talked about it all the time, and then I started working in the industry and never talked about sales velocity. But we're talking about it here. And so I'm curious, like, why do you think we don't talk about velocity enough as collectors? And based on what you're doing and what you're looking at, why do you think it's so important? I I think it's more relevant now than ever.

I mean, you look at the speed at and, again, you look at live. You'll get any any live platform, whether it's eBay live or, you know, another live platform. You look at repacks. And, again, you look at on chain, and and you see velocity. And velocity is interesting too because if we go back to, like or if you think about, like, a $10,000 card and a $500 card, where these things now interrelate is that not only can, like, price narrow the market, but the scarcity also can narrow it.

Right? And, like, scarcity can can help either delay or expedite liquidity. If something's super scarce and there it kind of, right, builds on that sense of urgency, and that $10,000 card could move actually quite quickly if the scarcity is there and you hit the market at the right time. It's like just but it's fragile. It's very fragile.

Whereas, again, you go back to, like, what is your strategy? And velocity of $500 card, you could trade in and out all day long. I mean, you look, again, at repackers. They do. They they they put that in their equation.

You look at Courtyard and their buybacks. They're they might buy that card, you know, or, you know, how they acquired that card. They're not looking at how much is that payback on that first sale or that first buyback. That thing's changing hands. It's similar, like, when I was at DraftKings and we looked at how people were were participating in daily fantasy, we didn't count revenue on the first time that someone entered a contest.

It was actually, like, three times that like like, that money had to trade hands three times because we we looked at the velocity of, like, how many times did that thing pass around to really actually count it. That's that's extremely interesting insights. And I know, Janie, I don't wanna get you in trouble. I know we're not allowed to make any future facing statements on this, but I'm I'm for whatever you can share, I'm I'm curious. Like, inside, I'm I'm in the I'm in the Slack group.

I'm on the Zoom call with the with the team. Like, what what sort of questions, I guess, are you all asking as, you know, product team members? Like, what what is the what are you searching for right now that might help or benefit us collectors heading into 2026? This is not future fate future statement here. But I think something that I love to you know, I love this friction, and we will continue this, I think, in in you know, is, you know, like, persona collision.

Like, power users if you think about power users and you think about casual collectors, power users, they want, like, control data density. We talked a lot about data. I mean, because I hope know, we're we're we're no we're no amateurs anymore, hopefully. And we also talk about speed. We the you know?

And then you talk about casual. You talk about simplicity, confidence, trust. And sometimes those things really do have like, they are at odds with each other even from a product experience perspective. We talk about this a lot within our team is you have the market and some market makers and, you know, small percentage of people that do that can move a market. And then but you the health of the market is from the greater piece, you know, the the larger audience, and they tend to want different things.

They might have the same objective at the end of the day. You know, I we all, I think, want the hobby to grow. We all have our collection endeavors. But the experience that we all want might be very different. And I, you know, and I think that, like, there's a lot of innovation in the, you know, AI.

We all, you know, use buzzwords and things, and it's true, though. Like, there's a lot more there are a lot more ways that you can appease certain personas that maybe you couldn't do in years past. But it's a it's a it's something that from a product if you are in product in the collectible space, it is something that probably every product person has to deal with. Not just deal with, just, like, think about very thoughtfully is how do you support the fact that there are a lot of personas that make up the it's the makeup of this entire hobby, and you can't alienate one. Mhmm.

And you they and they are interrelated in a lot of ways. Yeah. So that the multiple persona, the diversity, I think it is a strength of the industry and the hobby. And even if I don't do repacks or don't buy into breaks, I I I I believe that all those different slices or flavors of the hobby attract more people and bring more people to pie gross. And so I I'm pro diversity and but also understand that, like, especially as a content guy.

I I'm not going to try to get my message down to every persona or fall flat. So I'm thinking about fragmentation. I feel like the very the hobby is very fragmented. A lot of different people doing a lot of different things. I think about eBay, the biggest marketplace in the industry.

I think about role product you. It's gotta I I can't imagine. Like, I think about words and words that resonate, and it's very challenging to try to write words that resonate with multiple personas because the way they're the reason they're here is so differently so so different. Do you find the the multiple personas as a product person on eBay to be a problem, an opportunity, or both? Like, how do you think about it?

I think it's it's definitely both, I think. I think it's both. All of us are collectors in our, you know, in our organization and our team, but very different. I have this guy that sits next to me. I like to I mean, we like to joke with each other.

I'm like, man, you got some really shitty cards on your desk. And he's like, maybe one day, you know, I'll I'll I'll graduate to you. Like, we just like to just, you know, joke with each other. But he collects, like, inserts. And I'm like, man, what are you doing?

Just you're wasting your time. But he loves it. He loves collecting, like, these insert sets. And he so that's, you know, that's his thing. I love that.

You know? And it's funny. I think I've he sold a card even for me or, like, you know and but, again, it's like the interrelated stuff. And I I'm a very different persona even, like, year to year. It's slightly different or different motivations.

And and, like, in a when you productize the experience, it's like, how do you just how do you not over productize, but provide the tools or the kind of the the ramps and things that people can do what they want with that? I think it goes to kind of earlier when we're talking kind of the top the episode of, like, we're not forcing anyone to make a decision. We're just trying to show data and signal in a way that, like, would be like, make just make it more convenient because every person is very different. If you asked a 100 different people how they make per you know, collecting decisions, I'm sure you have because you've been hosting this thing. It's like, they all we all have diff way very different views.

But we also are all probably like, we are all collectors. We all have some commonalities. And from a product perspective, we just have to figure out what those what's the commonality and the rails and the back ends. And and then on a front end perspective, it's how do you just make sure you don't over productize and experience so that you you basically kind of box out people from either doing what they used to do, where it's like, hey. Where'd that button go?

Where'd that thing go? I used to love that thing. Or provide something that, like, doesn't it's not very contextual to them, very relevant to them. The kinda as we're rounding this out, I wanna think about just I know that I've gone through this evolution where I have thought about personas that aren't what I do one way, and then I maybe listen to a podcast, watch YouTube video, follow someone's content on Instagram. It'll get me to think about their approach different.

And I feel like we as a community, we're all buying cards, but there's a lot of conflict when we see someone in this industry or in this hobby do something that's different than how we approach it. And I've always it's I I also say, like, I feel like we spend way too much time worrying about what other people are doing. So I think there's always whether it's the hobby or anything else in life, there's there's time to reconsider, like, the assumptions we've made as collectors or humans about other people. What what are there any assumptions, like, off the top of your head, like, thinking about this that you think collectors just as a whole should reconsider based on what's happened this year in 2025 and where we might be going into 2026? If I had maybe it's more of, yeah, a mentality shift, and I think this has served me well in my career as is anytime I get frustrated or sometimes I feel like I could become narrow minded in a certain way rather than, like, growth mindset, I think to myself, Janie, don't get mad.

Like, get curious. So when there's something that doesn't make sense to me in the hobby or a concept that might not make sense or whatever, instead of passing judgment or gatekeeping or do just be curious. Be open minded. Still might not be the right thing for you. You still might not understand it, or you're like, I still don't agree with this.

But, like, I think the where where where we where we can do ourselves disservice is not understanding the the new trends. Not under you you like you said, you might not participate in repacks or case breaks or this or that, or you might not be aligned with the velocity or these things at which but get curious about it. There are things that you just like, rather than completely shut your brain off to it, and maybe you could have said, oh, this reminds me of this thing, or this actually is very aligned to some you might modify it or you might take a piece of that and then optimize your collecting strategy for the next year. That's awesome feedback. A big fan of of promoting curiosity.

Last one before I let you go. You're working on a lot of stuff. You're working for the biggest marketplace in trading cards. You see a lot of stuff that we don't necessarily get to see. What based on your work in product at eBay or you as the collector, what gives you confidence about where the hobby is headed in going into next year and beyond?

Well, we've had a good year, so that helps. I think the market's we've had a good year. I I will tell you that I I have had more friends and family reach out to me this Christmas season asking which cards to get for their son or nephew or niece or aunt or whoever Same. Any year. Right?

Like, and I think we're gonna be okay. Like, that to me is I'm like like, literally, I now bring cards to drop off to, like, pick up and drop off my kids because moms are going through my boxes while I'm waiting for to pick up the kids because they're like, my son is asking for this random basketball player. Do you have any cards like that in your own collection? I'm like, I mean, the friend and family discount, of course, for the moms. But to me, that's that's been the this holiday season, I have never seen it.

Like, no one ever reaches out to me, especially the moms. And every dad, mom, aunt, what whoever have been pinging me just saying, they're all that my kids are asking for are all I'm they just want cards. Like and so, yeah, don't Brett, I don't know if, like, that is similar to you of, hey. You can use some guidance. Like, what do I buy?

Like I I can't tell. That's so funny you said that. I I I was actually telling my wife. I'm like, her my wife's friends are texting me about what to buy their kids. And it's like I've, like I've just responded to the same question over and over.

And my follow-up question is always, what's your budget? Like, we can go many different directions of this. What's your budget? And then I'm able to, like, provide recommendations. But, yeah, I haven't thought about it until you just said it, but that's a good signal.

I've gotten that a lot, which means cards are probably in a pretty good place. At least for this gen you know, the the these kids, they're the kids are the kids are gonna save the world. The kids are gonna save us. So They got better collections than I do at this point. I for real.

Yes. So I think we're gonna go right. This was an awesome conversation. Always is. Appreciate it.

Learned a ton. Janie, looking forward to maybe doing a couple more of these next year talking about some more cool stuff. You're working on mindset mentality, but looking forward to doing it again in 2026. Would love to run it back. Thanks for having me, Brett.