Alright. We are back with another episode of Passion to Profession brought to you by my good friends at eBay.

Really excited for today's chat. I am joined by a hobby veteran. I'm sure you've, seen the name or interacted with him or the brands he's worked with over the years.

Right now, he is working on a really cool business called Haystack. I was just got back from the national, and there was a lot of chatter around Haystack.

Got to see the product and see it in action. So we're going to talk about Haystack, talk about his story, but I should probably introduce today's guest. Today, we are joined by Steve Sloan, who's the CEO of Haystack.

Steve, welcome. How are you? Doing great. Thanks for having me, Brett, and, I'm really excited to do this. I've actually never done a podcast where I talk about my career and on all the journeys I've been on.

So I'm actually pretty excited about this. This is gonna be cool. So Awesome. I I mentioned National, and I know we're, like by the time this goes live, we'll be a couple weeks removed.

But since we're still in that mode, I'd love to get your perspective on just the the show this year for you, for Haystack. When you were kinda heading home, what were some of your primary takeaways?

It was the best show of my career. You know, I've been to many nationals. Last year's show in Cleveland was the best up to that point, but this year surpassed it just because of our interactions with the the customers that we have.

We are a b to b service provider at our core, but, you know, obviously have a lot of touch points and three points to to people who sell cards, and that might include, in consumers and and collectors.

So being in a room with our clients on the b two b side with collectors, it was just a great experience to put the product out there, get people's feedback, get their initial impressions, their kinda side eye looks as they walk by the booth, and then, you know, the slow, like, gravitational pull to come over and talk to us about what we got going on.

So, honestly, like, the nationals, has more recent years become one of my favorite times of the year in the past, maybe not so much because of the positions I was in. But now it's definitely, been great.

And walking out of the show, it's like, okay. We got something really special here at Haystack. Let's bring it to as many people as possible. Awesome. I I felt some of that same energy, and we're gonna talk more about your Haystack run.

Before we do that, we're gonna talk about, kind of, your stops in between. But before we do that, I wanna talk about you, maybe, as a collector, and that's how I like to start a lot of these chats off with.

But do you remember, kind of, when cards first entered your hemisphere? Maybe, like, those earliest collecting memories that you had?

Yeah. Of course. So, I mean, I think the first time I was exposed to cards was through Garbage Pail Kids and going to the the corner store and having some coins in my pocket and shelling them out for a fax. Always looking for your name.

Right? So stuff Steven. There's even a slide in Sloan, which, came across at one point. So that was really the first introduction to cards, but I wouldn't say collecting. I wasn't, like, totally into it. It wasn't until years later.

I have a older sister. She's about twelve years older than me, and she was dating a guy who worked at a card shop. And, he must have really liked my sister because one day he gave me a Beckett and a pack of upper deck cards.

So 89 upper deck had just come out. It was, like, the biggest thing in the hobby, obviously. Unbeknownst to me though, just as a kid, as a sports fan. But I'll tell you what, man.

That was those were the doors that swung fully open for my experience with with cards because I realized there was layers to it. Right? The one layer is, okay, the the thrill of opening a pack and seeing what you get.

And as a sports fan, even by that, I had the buzz wanting to get either an ace player because I grew up in the Bay Area and was an ace fan, or Griffey, or one of the chase cards like Dale Murphy, reverse negative.

Things like that was all, like, on our mind as we went from there. But the the real thing that stuck with me was the Beckett.

Right? The Beckett magazine was this was the bible that came to my mailbox over time over over many years. And, like, I can't describe to you. Like, I'm sure kids now, they open up their apps and they and they look at it.

But the thrill of going to your mailbox and leafing to the card that you the cards you have in your collection, trying to see if there's an up or down arrow, well, it's just it made everything at that point in my life and, my friends too.

And so we we kinda had this little grouping of of friends who who were into cards and would trade it at at school and things like that.

But it was really that moment of understanding there was layers to this. There's pricing, there's structure, and, I think that's what made it sticky for me. That was a it was a good era to get into cards and be an ace fan too.

Right? You had the bash brothers and Ricky Henderson. And, you know, I think I even recall going into Beckett and look, everyone was chasing those cards looking at if the arrows were going up or down.

I don't want to sidetrack us too much, but I'm thinking about content and thinking about Beckett When thinking about that now.

Right? It was a publication that not only educated, the audience on what was coming or what was available, but then also had the layering and pricing components to it. So much of the hobby today is so focused.

It feels like on the front end about prices, values, and it seems like the collecting, it's still there. I have conversation with collectors every day, but maybe not the at the front and center of it.

Maybe talk about just, like, that experience of, like, getting your Becca back in the day based on what we experience now with all the apps and all the tools and everything else.

Like, do you think we're in a similar spot in terms of, like, the balance between, content, education, and prices?

Or does it just kinda maybe seem different because we're in this new era with a lot of new channels and things that we can go run to to to learn more?

You know, it's a like, Beckett kinda controlled the information, and they were, like, the the single source of truth at the time.

I guess that's my perspective of it. Maybe just being a kid, I had a more simplified view, but I'm sure there are other resources people look at.

But as a kid, you know, that was the sun, and we just all revolved around it. The reason's because it looked great. I mean, the the cup I actually went into my garage to pull a couple of guys.

It was at my parents' house, and I actually found just I have a couple still. Yes. The fact that you could and I'm looking for everyone listening. It's like a a 1991 issue with Cecil Fielder on it.

Like, Cecil Fielder was a larger than life personality. So they'd go to the mailbox and see Cecil Fielder in full color with a picture of his, like, most, you know, trending card at the time on the cover as well.

It was just a really cool experience. And then you dive into the content. What's hot? You know, the articles were great. As a kid, you know, my parents trying to force me to read all the time.

No problem getting me to read Beckett. Right? So, I I just say as a as a central centralized source of information, it did a lot of good for the hobby at that point because it was polished, it was clean, it was professional.

Now you look at today, it's like there's just I mean, it's the it's the creator economy.

Right? Everyone, can can can put out their thoughts and and content, which is good because you get a much more diversified look at the hobby and you get more, focused looks at parts of the hobby that maybe aren't as mainstream.

I like that personally.

I I like the fact that you can have a a women's soccer, podcast, or you can have a lacrosse podcast. And, of course, the big ones where you have, you know, the the big bigger personalities talking about what's trending overall.

That's great. And it's on YouTube, and it's available on TikTok and Interim and all these places. I think that's really good then it's because it's a marketing tool.

It's bringing much like the mailbox brought me in as a kid, it's bringing in kids from their phones, which I think is is makes me feel good about the future of the hobby because we're present.

I mean, and that's the biggest thing. It's just showing up.

Right? So, I I I really like that part of it. I love it. So we're, we're gonna dig into your professional background in the hobby. Before we do that, I wanna I wanna maybe understand excitement, Beckett, collecting.

Did did you experience a drop off as a collector, or were you have you been collecting this entire, time through from when you were a kid getting Beckett's to today?

No. I definitely had a drop off, and it was it was around the baseball strike, and it kinda coincided with me going to high school.

And so I think those two things together kind of pulled pushed me away from the sport that I love most, which was baseball at the time, and just pushed me into new areas of of focus, whether that was, you know, sports, playing sports, doing, service, things like that that was around in my community at the time.

But, you know, with it, I always kept my cards.

I had it. I was lucky because in college, I went down to San Diego for college, and I had an internship at the San Diego Hall of Champions, which was a regional sports museum in Balboa Park in San Diego.

It was a really cool place for a history major, sports fan to work, as an intern during college. And I had a mentor there. His name was Todd Tobias.

He's like a local historian. He was a curator at the museum at the time. He's actually an AFL historian, really great guy. He brought me back in. He took me to card shows in Mission Valley, and it was like, okay.

This this is still going. This is something I I have my memories are coming back. And it was at that point where I was like, okay. I gotta figure out a way to get back into this, like, more seriously.

I'm I'm new into my career, and Upper Deck is just right up the road. They're up in Carlsbad. Like, I got like, that was where the gear started turning. Okay. I wanna do this. And so how can I do it?

And, you know, long story short, I stalked as many people as I could that worked at upper deck and, like, forced it forced contacts and then tried to get in, and, eventually, that that paid off and, for the rest is history.

But, yes, there was a there was a time period where I stepped away, and I think that was probably good for me because, I've been doing this literally, you know, some kids and ever since I I, you know, really got back into it, the hall of champions there.

So we're gonna we're gonna dive into your experience at Upper Deck, but you said something there that I think is really important, especially for any individuals out there who are, like, thinking about making a move, whether it's starting their own business or working for, an existing business in the industry, like stalking.

And I you you say it and it's like stalking, but I knew know what you mean. It's like you're trying to go on offense.

You're trying to get in front of people. You're trying to build your personal brand and get noticed and get that interview. Maybe talk about, like, that proactive nature. Obviously, it's something you wanted.

Like, you targeted. You're like, I wanna work at Upper Deck. I'm feeling this energy again around the hobby. I wanna spend my livelihood in in the hobby and in the industry working for an amazing company like Upper Deck.

Maybe talk about just, like, how you got that first conversation that led to you landing the job that you did right out of the gates.

Yeah. I mean, it it's I'd say for for listeners, it's really about putting yourself in the shoes of the position you wanna be and thinking about it.

Try to think about it from the that perspective. And so reviewing the job boards, like, constantly looking at different positions, there was one that stood out as associate product manager.

I was like, okay. So associate product manager. I get to, you know, formulate products for upper deck. What could be cooler than that? So I really wanted to draw my experience and what I had, the limited experience would it be.

So what I do is I just try to put myself in the position of this job that I wanted and try to draw out all the the ways that my experience today could be applied.

And, you know, that might have been a stretch a little bit being, like, an assistant, you know, museum assistant at the time or assistant museum curator or whatever it was. But, you know, I talked to people.

And, like, a guy named Terry Amelia, who I've worked with throughout my career, worked at Upper Deck at the time, and they actually scheduled an event at the halls at the Hall Of Champions. They're doing an auction for charity there.

I'm like, okay. This is my opportunity. I gotta come full guns of place, and I can't let these guys leave without knowing who I am and, like, how how much I want this this this associate project manager role.

So, like, right, looking back, it's probably pretty cringe, but, like, I've I've had like, as my daughters would say, but, like, I would, I came with resumes printed out, and, you know, this is really before the cell phone where I really took out, so I couldn't just, like, you know, get exchange digits and stuff like that.

But, like, I came prepared, and I just I I had my pitch, and I pitched it, and I followed up and I followed up and I followed up.

It wasn't the first phone call that they responded. Probably wasn't the second or third, but they knew who I was at that point.

They had a face to the name. So I would encourage anyone out there who who wants to get into the hobby, for example, is, like, network is the most important thing.

You have to know somebody in the space. So go to card shows, introduce yourself, be active on LinkedIn, go to card card shops.

You never know who's gonna walk in the door. Be part of that community from that perspective because you'll be surprised how many people, will interact with you because we're talking about a common shared interest, which is just cards.

And, definitely draw on what you your background is too.

So whether you're majoring in finance or you, you know, have worked in product management, it doesn't matter. Like, think of ways that that applies to the companies that you're interested in working at.

Those are some good nuggets. And then you've landed the job. You started working in upper deck in that first experience working for one of the biggest manufacturers in the space.

Like, what are some of the lessons that you learned through that, that run at Upper Deck that maybe stuck with you and catapulted you on your next stop?

Yeah. Upper Deck was a really cool company at the time. I mean, it was like two I joined in 02/2005.

We had licenses across the board, so it was really healthy and and strong company. The lessons were innovation was, like, in the DNA of the company. Like and that stuck with me to this day. But innovation and upper deck go hand in hand.

And I think as a a entry level employee coming in, being exposed to the cycles of product development and how rapid it was and how required it was for new innovation to be part of those rounds was really eye opening to me.

Like, I never, at any point, what did it appear to me that we they would ever we we at the time would would rest on the laurels in terms of what we had in the catalog of products. So I worked in upper deck authenticated.

That was the autograph arm. And as a product manager, I was, assigned the different athletes under under our, licensing exclusive agreement. So we had great names. I mean, this is Tiger Woods, LeBron James, Michael Jordan, of course.

And so as an APM associate product manager, trying to allocate the Michael Jordan autographs for that year to the right mix of products was incredibly challenging and fun against the lens of innovation.

You could put autographs on on Spalding basketballs all day, on red, Bulls jerseys all day. That that's easy.

How do you take a Jordan autograph and put it onto something that's new, fresh, that collectors will will appreciate and understand as something that is worth worthwhile and and worth, enduring as as, like, a legacy piece for Jordan.

That was the fun part of the job. But against it, like, the requirements management, and and this came from the top from Richard McWilliam, was like, there were margin requirements.

You had to hit those margin requirements. So I guess the introduction to me is the cross section between innovation and, frankly, profit.

Like, you have to be able to deliver against certain margins, and, innovation helped drive that for sure, which was, like, the little the little wrinkle in it, which made it fun, I guess, I'll say.

I I have to maybe connect some dots here. So you said o five when you started, and I was just racking my brain and, like, my my mind went immediately to exquisite.

Right? It had been a product for two years prior to you joining. You know, Exquisite now is still, if not, more more a part of the conversation than ever before.

It one of the most coveted products in the industry. Maybe of all time, you see the crazy sales going on. Maybe talk about those early days with, Exquisite and being at a company that was producing Exquisite.

Did you did you have any did you have any idea that it would be, what it is now at that moment in time for you? No. And but, frankly, I didn't really work on the product, just to be clear.

I wasn't associated with it. I didn't have that hands on involvement. So maybe my sphere of influence, wasn't as aware of how big a particular product would become.

But then going back to innovation comment, it's like, how can we raise the bar for the hobby in terms of the quality of the product, the the exclusiveness of the product, and using the stable of athletes that we had within the the brand to their full extent.

So, like, you know, obviously, MJ and LeBron come to mind for that.

Kobe was in there as well. I would just say as a whole, like, the DNA of the of the company is definitely all about innovation and exquisite as a manifestation of that is, I think, the strongest possible representation.

I I still, you know, talk to people who I worked with at the time and products like that come up, and it's a source of pride to be able to raise the bar for doing things that, like, honestly, at the time, we're kind of, like, crazy.

Like, you're gonna charge how much for for a a box of cards.

Like, that sort of thing was, you know, not we weren't afraid of that. I I'd say, especially on either side of the business, on the Autograph side where I was or on the card side.

So So you moved from Upper Deck to working at PSA. Talk about that transition. Like, what was the opportunity, and why did what did you see that made you go run, over to PSA? Well, my time at Upper Deck came to an end.

Like, the company from 2008 until 2011 when I left was, you know, not the healthiest of places due to losing licenses and, you know, there's some lawsuits mixed in there for for things I'm sure people are aware and can look up.

So the company itself was kind of shrinking.

And on the flip side, you had Panini who had acquired the license, and they were growing, and they were poaching people. And and it was just it was kind of this transfer of of, power or authority, I'll call it.

I think one thing I regret in my career is not leaving sooner because, a lot of the peers at my level and my mentors above had had started to to to leave the company.

And so, looking at PSA as an opportunity, you know, frankly, I was I was laid off. I was let go from from upper deck, and it was just this this this, shrinking of the company.

I wish I had seen the kind of trends a little bit more clear and and been a little more proactive, but I was lucky enough through some of my networks at the at at upper deck to be introduced to, Joe Orlando and others who are running PSA.

So coming on to PSA is very much, a new experience for me.

I lived in San Diego. The company is in Orange County. I started with the business development role. It was kind of this, like, ambiguous role of trying to grow PSA into new areas.

But quickly, you know, appreciated the value of PSA and was really educated about how PSA serves in pretty incredible role in the hobby as as in terms of this this provider of structures, provider of of kind of, our just the assessment of items in in a way that helps provide that structure to to the marketplace.

And so PSA started as business development, went into marketing for both coins and cards, then went into management for PSA. It was just a really fun evolution, and there's a lot of lot of stories in inside of that time for sure.

I I have to ask, and I feel like I ask everyone who I talk to who has worked or currently works at PSA, maybe some crazy cards that came through that are memorable.

Like, what are some of those maybe pivotal moments of cards you saw or product launches or anything you kinda call back to during your time working at PSA?

You know, honestly, it's, like, one of the great gifts of being able to work at PSA is be able to see the cards that come through.

It's a it's a centralized hub for all the greatest cards in the hobby at some point coming through those walls.

And so, you know, the the ones that stand out to me are the fines, the discoveries over the year of cards that have maybe been stored away unknown to collectors, you know, the Black Swamp find, the Uncle Jimmy collection, which was a incredible autograph collection of of cards from, prewar and and post war era.

Just there's Ty Cobb cards. I mean, they're just so many different, incredible cards.

My my probably favorite memory was the February where Layton Sheldon from, Vintage Brakes pulled the Mickey Mantle from the '55 Bowman, which was just an electric moment overall for the hobby.

It got us on front page of ESPN and things like that.

And for that card to then, end up being a PSA nine was just like this crazy culmination of of an incredible story where they're opening a a lone, cello pack that's opened, and they're against all odds, there's a there's a mantle in it.

And not only against those odds, but the mantles and PSA meant condition. So, I I have, like, pictures on my phone from throughout the years of, like, when car incredible cards came through.

And sometimes I'll I'll I'll scroll back and look at all the incredible cards, like, Ken Kendrick collection, for example.

Haven't being able to go through each card in that collection one by one at stacking the slabs from it is just, incredible. So, really blessed to be able to be that close to some incredible pieces of history, frankly.

That's amazing. So you, you during that I'm the time you spent at PSA, I'm sure there was a lot of we have always done things this a certain way.

We've got standards that we we follow, but then there's always, like, a push for new innovation, technology, excitement. Like, I know and now you're working for a tech company that's building a tech company that we're gonna get into.

But how do you think about balancing that? Like, we have gotten this far doing things a certain way with, adopting new innovations or technology.

Like, how do you think about that from a business perspective in the hobby? Yeah. I I think your customers are gonna dictate what you need at the end of the day in the most clear and concise manner.

So, you know, for us at PSA, obviously, the growth each year from, like, 2012, '13, '14, '15, '16, '17, all the way up, of course, to COVID.

It was year over year, a little bit of growth, but it wasn't until 2020, 2021 when things got absolutely nuts with with COVID.

But, you know, it's it's it's pretty worn out expression, but, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. And we needed to change, and we needed to change quickly, because our customers, acquired it.

And we were a publicly traded company at the time. Like, not all of the, profits of the company were being put back into reinvestments, which was a major problem. Obviously, Nat, when it with his acquisition, fixed that.

But, the the I think the main thing is just listening to the customer. So so examples that stand out to me from over the years is, okay, we had paper forms forever, like, which is crazy to me.

So making the transition away from paper into online submission center was a was a was a painful process, but it was one that we we did and and pulled out for the for the improvement of customer experience and the operational experience, frankly, for the people working at the company.

But, you know, with with COVID and the ensuing wave of cards that came in, there was a lot of other behind the scenes changes that needed to happen, you know, like lean manufacturing techniques being installed into the operational floor.

So that involves everything from rearranging the order, the physical layout of the rooms where the cards will flow through, to the individual desks where people were working at and making sure everything was within arm's length, all supplies are properly, loaded in the right areas just to save those those minutes, those those seconds off of the tasks that were being performed.

Overall, though, balancing tradition, it's not easy to make those changes when a staff and a company, frankly, in its DNA is is set used to doing things one way.

So that's like moving that oil tanker slowly one one kind of degree at a time. But to the credit of everyone who worked at PSA at the time, they were all all about it.

People working seven days a week, long hours, double shifts to to get, cards back to people in the most, responsible and expeditious amount of time as possible.

It may not seem that way from the outside. I totally get that because, the backlog was ridiculous.

But at the level of the employees, like, going from maybe a 120 to a 150 employees all the way up to 500 up to 800, crossing a thousand. Like, that type of growth fundamentally changes the company.

And I gotta give a lot of credit to people who are there from day one to to shepherd through that growth and and become what is frankly entirely different company today than what it was even in, like, 2019.

So What what did you learn about collector behavior and maybe customer expectations during your time there? You mentioned, like, what was happening on the inside and just talking about moving desks and people working double time.

Like, we don't see that, like, if we're people just submitting your cards. But I would imagine just all the feedback demands.

Like, you probably learned a lot there that you you might be applying today in your opportunity with Haystack. But maybe talk about just the what you learned on the customer side working at PSA.

Yeah. I learned a lot. I mean, it was a it was a really rewarding position to be the president of PSA because everything crosses your desk, and you have a lot of responsibility within the context of the hobby.

And that responsibility typically comes to a head with with the customer's experience. You know? You wanna make the best possible experience even when you're in this position where you don't have great options.

But, you know, I think one lesson that kinda bubble to the top for me is, like, the hobby for most people is an escape. You know? They have jobs.

They have mortgages. They have bills. They have responsibilities. So they go to the hobby to get away from that stuff. And when things go wrong inside of that, the escape space, it's amplified in a way that is just really, a problem.

Like, it it's it's it's not, the way that, you know oh, it it is much more, personal at that point when when things go wrong.

And so for people working inside this hobby, I hope everyone would understand this. Like, we have a pretty big responsibility.

I know we're not we're not saving lives in the in the classical sense, but we are providing escape. And there's a great deal of responsibility with that to to meet the customer where they are in terms of those expectations.

Tried to do that. I tried to answer as many emails as I could that would come in, try to meet people at shows and talk to them. But, that that was one part of it that it just really stood out to me.

It's like hobby is an escape. Try to do everything you can from your business perspective to get back to people, to let them know even if you don't have the answer they wanna hear that you've answered them and that you're working on it.

And, I think that goes a long way with people just in terms of developing respect for for what you're trying to do.

So So we talked about Upper Deck. We talked about PSA. Certainly, two of the most recognizable brands in the space. And now let's talk about Haystack, your current company and what you're spending all of your time working on.

I I love I'm I'm so I'm so excited to get into this just like these early days startup phase and kinda your mindset mentality, team building, technology, all those things.

But I gotta ask just out of the gates, like, what led you to start Haystack? What what was your vision? And maybe take us all the way back to, like, the beginning.

Like, how did this even become a thing? Yeah. It's a pretty cool story. So, they're two two brothers, a star kind of cofound the company. And, they're Jerome Behar and Rick Behar.

Behar. So people in the hobby may know Rick Behar. He's been in the hobby for decades. He's been a show promoter. He's been a dealer. He's been an auctioneer. So he knows cards through and through.

His other very successful tech entrepreneur, was a cofounder of Workiva, which is a huge SaaS service for data compliance and, SEC filings. So very successful with not only that, but other other companies that he's founded.

Unfortunately, Jerry, had, fallen ill with cancer. And so he wanted to do something with his brother to really help form a legacy and a bond between the two of them.

And that was what the origins of the company were. This company was gonna be a connection between between these two brothers to really help build something in Rick's space, in the hobby space, that pulled in from the tech space.

And so look so, unfortunately, Jerry, succumbed to cancer, and and passed away. And, so that's when I had been talking to them a little bit, coming on to the company after he passed.

You know, obviously, that was very difficult period. Couple months later, I was brought on to try to help, just give the company its its strategic direction and and move it forward from there.

And, what a great decision that was, I think, from my perspective because it it not only gave me gave me the opportunity to kind of form Haystack into what we wanted to be, which was a a tech forward hobby company that serves the pain points of, of our customers.

But, also, it's a start up, and start ups are awesome. So, like like, having come from, you know, big corporate, especially a company that went from a 150 employees all the way up to over a thousand.

Like, it was so refreshing for me to be able to work on a project, and that's really what our startup is. It's a project, to, to to formulate and build something from scratch that you know will help people in a very hands on way.

So, that was the origins. You know? We're trying to I can get into all the things we're trying to do, but, like, really, I love the fact that the company was started by two brothers.

And now that we've kinda got Jerry's legacy always online as we go to build, I think it's gonna help us be successful as a team.

So That's an awesome story, and I wanna get into what what Haystack is working on and the problem you're solving.

Before I I do that, I wanna hit on, like, the startup, and I can see the excitement in you talking about it. But maybe, like, the share with the audience just like this.

You you I don't it's Upper Deck and PSA, like, to me, I see those companies, and they're, like, big business. To me, they're, like, the corporate corporations, that have been in this hobby running the show for so long.

But then all of these companies are popping up, and I'm evaluating and see these the startup space and seeing new technology scrappiness.

But maybe, like, share a little bit what it's been like moving from, like, the big business to, like, this opportunity where you you look at it as a, like, a project, but you're you're so invested in every small decision you make, like, today really, really matters.

And but then you also have this opportunity to, like, really think like an owner and craft what's happening with the company.

Like, talk about that transition for you. You've been working in the space for twenty plus years, but now is kinda like your first go from the Ground room floor. So maybe share some perspective there.

Yeah. I mean, it's all about ownership. I mean, you don't have a finance department. You don't have a CFO. You don't have a, a product management team. You have a staff of of really dedicated and committed people who are working.

I mentioned it before with PSA, but still things here seven days a week to try to get this company to its next level. And I think it takes a special type of person to work at a start up.

Like, there's no hiding in a start up. Like, if you're gonna if you're gonna come in and try to to do the bare minimum, you're gonna be, you're gonna be found out real quick, and you're gonna be gone.

Just because whether it's the cash burn situation, whether it's the the input of the other people who are busting their backs to try to make the company, you just it's an environment for for for high activity people who wanna build and wanna solve problems.

And so through that lens, people who are listening who are maybe interested in joining startups, there's a lot of great startups in the hobby right now.

And I've had the pleasure of meeting many of these, either cofounders or or leaders of these companies, including the people that work there.

And I I noticed they're all obsessed with their product. Like, how can I make this better? How can I take this to the next level?

And it's always through the lens of the collector, which I think is is, I shouldn't say always. The ones that are gonna or that are successful and have gone are through the lens of the collector. That's that's my observation of it.

But, and the customer too because it's not always just the collector. Sometimes it's a hobby business. But, the I I just think it takes a special mindset to work in a in a startup because I I saw it with my corporate experience.

There's people that can hide, and you can get the you can get in a place where you're comfortable. And I myself may have fallen to that in a couple points of my career where it's like, you know what?

You know, the company is not doing well and or I'm not as involved as I used to be. I'm not as motivated. That's why I love this this this area here because I'm motivated every day.

And I think anyone who works in the startup probably shares that same perspective because it's make or break. You gotta do it. And the only person to do it is you and your small team.

So So you mentioned collectors in the kind of the most exciting startups in the space are thinking about collectors and making things better for them, whether it's improve efficiencies, save time, you name it.

And those are the companies that typically are the ones that graduate from startup mode and grow. Maybe what what are those opportunities that you're solving for Haystack?

Maybe give the for anyone who hasn't heard of Haystack, like, what's the pitch? Like, what are you working on? So Haystack is a infrastructure provider for hobby businesses.

We are looking at all the difficult parts of running a hobby business and solve them so our customers can focus on growth and focus on customer acquisition and things that are, you know, frankly gonna drive the business to the next level.

And through our solutions, we're providing the scalability to do that. So what we really are is we are a card recognition company. And so we looked at, like, what are the big frame points with the hobby right now?

One major one was just the ability to get cards from their physical state to their digital state so they can be moved to the next point of their life cycle, whether that's for sale, whether that's for grading, whether that's for, social media sharing, something as simple as that.

It wasn't a great solution. And so from our perspective, we wanted to focus on a couple of things.

We wanna focus on the data and the structure of that data to make sure it was it was super well put together from the perspective of the hobbyist and the person who is gonna be interacting with it.

And that typically means, like, listings on online.

So you have your typical data structures for titles, but you also and those come typically from, like, checklist information. Twenty twenty four, tops, Chrome, Lawrence Butler, number five.

You know, that type of stuff is is kinda baked in through the checklist. But there's a lot of information on top of that. Oh, it's a rookie card. Oh, it's an, it's a green to 99, so it's a color match.

It's it's, you know, a case hit if it's an insert or something like that. We wanted to put all that layered on top of it in a really clean structured way and do it with all new releases.

And so the real engine of our company is that catalog that is ready to do that card recognition on the day of release from, you know, top spinous release yesterday. We're already matching it. That's the way that we wanna operate.

Fast, really, really clean data structures just so we can make the DC Sports 80 sevens who are one of our clients or the SlabSharks or the PC or the MC Sports, Burbanks, give them the ability to get those cards listed right away without any friction of having to sit there typing, understanding, oh, is this purple speckle?

Is this, aqua lava? You know, all that type of stuff. Like, we take all that away so they can focus on getting more consignments, getting more customers, whatever it might be.

So long winded answer perhaps, but, like, at its core, we're trying to power businesses to be more efficient and scale. You do this through technology, but I would imagine a a lot of this has to do with just, like, relationships.

And you're the central point you have you mentioned a lot of different types of businesses that you work with. And then, also, I'm thinking about, like, new finest release.

So there's a manufacturer there. Like, how do you think about interacting with the entire ecosystem and how that ecosystem, maybe is connected through conversations or technology, with with with you guys?

Well, that that's a great question. Honestly, you know, the ways that I think about this are we have some monoliths in our industry. We have some big goals. We got PSA. We got Fanatics.

We got eBay. We have whatnot. We're a really large company. I think as our position, we are kind of agnostic. We are in between all these where they have really strong products and strong tech teams and and and all that.

They're they're working towards the efforts that drives best customer outcomes for them. We've tried to fill those gaps because a lot of companies in between don't have the resources that those big guys have.

And so if we could come in and be that solution for them, we can help them level up to a point where they're a little bit a little bit more, you know, able to grow at a pace that might match some of these bigger guys.

And And so we wanna work across all the platforms. You know, we have a product called Breaker Connect where we will serve up images powered by our card recognition to people who join breaks and on the same day of the release.

So say you joined the top finest break yesterday. Literally, customers could receive images of their hits through the haystack.

Tech portal. That's awesome. We want them to make we wanna make available to breakers on whatnot, phonetics, collect phonetics live, I should say, eBay Live, of course, Loop, all the platforms we're breaking, happens.

And, I think by providing the tech and the the structure to do that, it just helps, you know, those smaller companies, those mid level or small or even, like, mid to large companies be a little bit more tech forward with with how they're helping their their customers experience the hobby.

So that's just a brief example, but I think really filling in those gaps is really where we wanna be.

When you think about your maybe experiences with upper deck and PSA, are are there anything from those experiences that you draw to that you're using today to kinda carry out the the mission of Haystack?

Oh, yeah. For sure. So, you know, for upper deck, I mentioned before, but it was all about in innovation.

And, like, I I was I'm so thankful to have that those lessons early in my career because I I learned the importance of of innovating. And I think we've applied that to to Haystack.

Like, for example, breaker connect didn't exist even six months ago where you could see hits of your cards from a break in a high quality, really, already identified manner the day of the break.

We wanna take the core engine, which is card recognition, and apply it in ways like that to all different pain points within the hobby. And so that's one of them. The other one is, like, PSA.

If if you've kind of step back and look at PSA, what does PSA do? Why is PSA the market leader? Why do they have such a large market share? It's because they provide this really unrivaled structure to their market.

So PSA is very easy to understand. Ten, nine, eight. It's not you're not messing with, like, confusing subgrades or or things like that. It's and that helps build a network effect.

That helps all the people that use PSA benefit from the other people who use PSA because that structure is very clearly, understood and transferrable. So now you have a pricing structure that has emerged out of PSA ten, nine, eight.

And I think that structure exists for for for graded cards very clearly, especially PSA cards, but it doesn't really exist for raw cards. So from my perspective, I'm trying to think, okay. So how do we make that work for raw cards?

And we haven't cracked the code entirely, because, you know, there's obviously condition still matters. But the things that I know do matter is, like, getting a great firsthand image of that card.

And I haven't even talked about, like, innovating through our case type one, which is a a light box where you can put your phone on top and take professional level quality images of your phone of your cards in a really nice way.

But I know it starts with images, and it starts with getting the data off those images in a really clean structured way.

And so we're building what we're hoping to be a more universal structure for rock cards that can be applied in in fun ways that, will benefit collectors, whether that's break or connect, whether that's easier listing, or or whatever might come after that.

So We we talked about, kind of the importance of just, like, relationships, and we can talk about, like, all the cool tech.

But we all know that it really doesn't matter unless you have great people who are kinda behind the scenes driving and pushing the business forward.

I wanna get into maybe, like, your thoughts on maybe hiring strategies and just, like, traits you look for.

I think this would be good for anyone out there who's, like, in that mindset of, like, I'm trying to get out of my nine to five and go maybe work for one of these companies or start something myself.

What do you, as the CEO of Haystack, look for in people when you're building teams inside the hobby? That's a good question. I'm I'm I have experience on both sides. I've hired some good people. I've hired some bad people.

And so I've tried to drown on, like, literally decades of experience doing this. I'm still not perfect. You know? You don't really know until you get the person in the chair. But, I'd say there's three things that I really look for.

It's passion for the space, and I think that may not be required for some large, you know, mainstream product category like Kleenex or something like that. You know? You need to be passionate about Kleenex because you do great on that.

But for cards, you need to be passionate about it. You need to know. You need to obsess about it, and especially from the lens of a start up. You know, that may even not be as true for, like, the bigger companies.

But, like, for a start up, I'm not gonna seriously consider you if you don't have a a passion for for what we're working on here, and that needs to show through in your your knowledge of the space.

The other thing is intelligence. And, you know, intelligence is I don't mean, like, book smart.

I do, but I also mean, like, being curious and, like, not not accepting, the failure that you have on the first first round, learning from that failure and trying again in a different approach, being curious to its point where you're learning.

That that's important to me. And And then lastly is just work ethic. Like, you gotta show up. You gotta you gotta put in the work and be and be willing to to roll it up your sleeves.

So I've hired people with two of those three in various combinations, and they work fine, but they're not that all star that you need to really make a heart a start up So passion, intelligence, work ethic for me is, like, those three things in in combination are are requirements for for working, at Haystack or for, startups, I think, in general.

I love that. You and I shared just in some of my evaluation and being hiring over the years, I share in a lot of those similar qualities, and I you're not alone here.

I've I've made plenty of bad decisions and brought the wrong people on the bus, but those are, mistakes you kinda learn from.

Maybe in this era of the hobby right now, building a company, building a tech company in in the industry, what skills do you think are the most important or that you're looking for to layer on top of kind of that intelligence and curiosity bucket, when you're talking with people?

Yeah. It's a that's a really good question. I think, you know, skills require are are are depending on what you're trying to build as a company.

But I'd say, in general, like, I think one really great thing about the hobby is, like, we're kind of in a tech renaissance, and we're getting a lot of growth from the big companies who are bringing in people from other, you know, other industries, tech specifically as as an example there.

And they're really infusing different type of talent into the hobby.

I would say for people who are looking to get in, bring those skills. Like, we want the skills that you brought from other industries, but just make sure you're doing it you're respecting the industry's needs.

And and whatever you build, it's through the lens of helping collectors or hobby businesses be more efficient or be, closer to their cards in in a positive way.

So in terms of skills, I think it really depends on the types of companies and what you're trying to build, of course.

But, you know, be hungry. You know, be flexible. Be opportunistic when you when you're coming in and work hard. I mean, I know that sounds like the lamest cliche, but, like, it's just really true.

Like, you just gotta work. You gotta do the work. And I think, you can at the end of the day, if you're successful or not, if you put it in the work, at least you'll have that comfort of knowing you put everything into it.

I'm not sure if I exactly answered your question, but I think for me, it's just like it's it's it's the get it done attitude that really, I think, shows through when people are interviewing for for roles in the space.

So network and work hard. Pretty simple. Yes.

What what what do you think is maybe something that collectors don't realize about what's happening on the business side of the hobby? You know, I'm on Twitter and or, actually, I I see all the conspiracy theories and things like that.

I think the one thing that I would just really stress it for people who don't work in the industry is, like, there are a lot of collectors who work at these companies, and that matters.

You wouldn't be a successful company if you don't have collectors inside your walls because collectors are the are the seat at the table that are making sure that products resonate, the marketing campaigns resonate.

And you can tell pretty quickly if if a company doesn't have those seats filled like collectors because things just don't land, and mistakes are made in in ways that are very apparent.

So I would say rest maybe rest assured isn't the right word because it's never gonna happen on places like like Twitter.

But, like, just know, like, there are people on your side inside these inside these companies, and they are working for your best interest. And I know I kinda sound like a like a in industry plant when I say that.

Honestly, it's it's true. Like, like, you wouldn't work in this space if you didn't love it. And so, you know, go to the national. Talk to the people that work at these companies, and I think you'll see it firsthand.

What do you think? I know we're coming off the heels of the national. A lot of in person, a lot of technology, a lot of cool cards. What maybe excites you the most right now about what's happening in in the space? The innovation's huge.

I think, you know, excites is a interesting word. I think there's a lot of questions that people have about where the industry is gonna head with some of the transferring of the licenses, for example, from Panini to to TOPS.

I think TOPS runs things really, really well in terms of what we can tell from our side as a business. Like, they have great checklists. They are on time with releases, things like that. So I think that's good.

But I think in terms of what excites me, it just I don't know if it's exciting in a good way or a bad way or neutral way, but it's like, what is going to happen in these next, you know, five years when this really takes a hold?

I mean, going to FNAX Fest in New York this year was, like, a night and day experience from going the year prior. They put so much into that show, and it was frankly awesome.

Like, it was the weirdest, highest level of energy that I'd seen in a card show in a really long time in terms of the celebrities walking around, the streamers having big crowds of kids following them throughout the show floor, the panels.

The dealers who were there were really engaged and excited, I thought, to be there.

And not to mention you're kind of smashed up against really big brands, like and and and and and leagues and teams, which I think is good for the hobby. That excites me.

But I don't wanna lose the national, because the national is very different from like, the national is like the backyard cookout where you get together with your friends, and I think the the FNAX Fest is more like maybe like the gala, the Met Gala or whatever.

You get all dressed up and go. Very very different, but also equally important in terms of how they they they serve the hobby.

So it excites me to see how this all plays out. I really hope that we can keep the community that, we've built over the years and, you know, shows like the national continue to be a a really important part of that, as we go.

Alright. Maybe a couple more before I let you get out of here.

I wanna pivot back to maybe Steve as the collector. I I'd love to learn what are you currently collecting? Like, what's top of mind? Any cool cards in your collection that you wanna call out?

Yeah. So I'm I'm like a sucker for my teams. Like, I'm a huge sports fan, and for better or worse, I I collect, you know, my ace. And even though they abandoned my Oakland, they are are still my team.

So I I that a little like, I like little projects and themes. And so, like, last year in Oakland 2024, I wanted to get, like, a really solid rookie crop out of those guys.

So Lawrence Butler, Tyler Soderstrom, Zach Galloff, those types of guys. Like I said, for better or worse, put put a lot, like, into making sure I had my last year in Oakland Rookies.

Didn't stop me from also, you know, Jack, Jacob Wilson's and Nick Nick Kurtz, which would have been probably a better investment.

But, anyway, I'm all about my team. So I'm a Sharks fan too. So Sabrina Smith are really excited for me right now. Ask her off. My Raiders are a dumpster fire, so I'm a little little more leery of collecting them at this point, though.

Anyone who knows me knows in the past I have a I had I've sold it off, but a pretty, embarrassingly large Derek Carr collections.

But, you know, it's all about sports for me. In terms of, like, the big cards that I have, they all have to have a meaning for me in my life.

Yeah. So, you know, my dad was a big Roger Maris fan. I I gravitated for him, so I have a nice Roger Maris rookie in PSA eight. The first kind of moment for me in the hobby was understanding.

I mentioned in the card earlier, but the Dale Murphy reversed negative in '89. I was like, oh, that's a really cool card. And an older person in my life said, you know, that's a reference to '57 tops, Hank Aaron.

I was like, who? So, like, as a kid so, like, for whatever reason, that 57 tops stuck in my mind all these years, so I had to have a nice 57 tops.

So I have 57 tops and carrying an eight. My wife and I are big Guns N' Roses fan, so I had to have a 2013 tops archive, Axl Rose, on card autograph.

Little things like that. Like, it's kind of a mix mash of stuff, but it's stuff that when I look at that card, I'd I'd instantly have a memory to something in my life or a person in my life.

So that's the way I approach it in addition to my sports. I love it. That's amazing. I I might be the only one on the island, and I've said this on couple other episodes, episodes, but I kinda like what the Raiders are doing.

They got a look they got some young talent on the offensive end and, you know, new coach, and I I'm I'm kind of a Geno guy. I I like I like what he does, and I think he'll be a good fit. I'm scarred. Okay?

So that's it. That's the only reason I like I love Brock Bowers. He's generational, but I just can't do it to myself because I have this weird Raider fan mentality where if I get invest involved or invested, something's gonna go wrong.

And so that's trauma manifesting through cards perhaps, but I'm not I'm not gonna go there. I'm just gonna leave it alone and try to enjoy it, without cards at this time. Alright. We you're you're building a tech company in the space.

I gotta ask you one more question about looking forward. What's one thing you wanna be true about the hobby five years from now? And I'm just gonna assume you'll still be working in this space based on your track record.

You know, I want I want to be able to go to my, you know, it's my my I have two daughters, and they're not super into cars, but the the boys of the, in of their their our family friends are all into it.

And that makes me so happy when I can talk to a 10 or 12 year old about cards because it brings me back to my own childhood. And if we can keep that going, then we're okay as an industry. I mean, really, it's all about that experience.

And, you know, I was camping with some friends over the weekend, and, one of the kids is like, hey. I pulled a I pulled a Max Muncy Dodgers to five, and he was so excited that he had done this.

And it just that those, like, little experiences, like, tell me, like, he's he may not end up being a card collector long term, but he is a part of a a little group of of of guys who are into it at this point.

And I think as as you look back in your childhood, you look back the things that brought you comfort and brought you joy.

And I'm guarantee you, he'll remember that max Muncy to five, which is just, I think, a pretty cool thing. So, if five years from now, kids are still doing that, I think we're we're in a good spot.

This is Steve Sloan. He is building Haystack. Steve, really appreciate the conversation. This was a ton of fun. It was. Thank you, Brett. Thank you so much.