Alright, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Passion of Profession brought to you by my good friends at eBay.

Excited to dive into today's conversation. I alluded to the fact that having some guests back on, it feels like it's been years, but it's it's only been months.

But, I reached out to today's, guests and figured, you know, it's a good time, especially since we're in a period of tremendous growth and health within our industry to talk with some of the individuals who have been building businesses.

And so today, I'm joined by Mike and Cameron making his first appearance, from the Leahy team.

They if you have not already, checked it out, make sure you check out their podcast, Modern Marvels. I have been really enjoying the content, going on long walks, listening to the both of them run through, Modern Marvels.

And we'll get into all of that, but without further ado, Mike, Cameron, how are you? Doing good, Brett. Brett. Thanks for having us. Us on.

Yeah. It's everything. Perfect. We we gotta get used to this. Thanks for having us on again, Brett. It was a blast last time. I I remember getting off and just just raving to everybody about how much of a great experience it was here.

Your hosting skills are just incredible. I think you bring the best out of everybody that you have on. So it's just it was a pleasure to be on last time, and, we're I'm I'm massively excited for this one.

Thanks, Brett. Yeah. How long have you two been working together? I jumped on about two and a half, three years ago, I think, something like that.

Right after I graduated college, I just I was kinda working part time with Mike while I was still finishing my senior year and then transitioned full time right after I graduated.

But at this point, kinda lost track of time, and it's just it's just been rolling. Have you, Cameron, have you always been a collector? Yeah. I have from, I think, probably when I was five, six years old.

I started collecting with my dad, and that's kind of how it all started. Took a little bit of a hiatus while I was in high school, but picked it right back up, as I got into college and, you know, the pandemic like everybody else.

Yeah. Did you did you expect, to be working in this industry out of college? I think, I I wouldn't imagine you you went to college to go work in a card business, but it's funny how things work out.

Maybe talk a little bit about that before we get into kind of this the substance of today's conversation. Yeah. For sure. For me, honestly, I tell everybody the same thing.

I just I got really, really lucky. It wasn't like you were saying, it's not something you can necessarily plan for. It kinda just fell into my lap, met good people, like Mike, like our other guy, Cole.

And, yeah, I I went to college. I studied marketing at University of Hawaii, and it just so happened that within that time frame, this kinda fell into my lap.

And from that point, I never really looked back. It's been a great ride so far, and, yeah, I couldn't be happier with it. Awesome. Well, we're, excited to have you on. Wanted to get you introduced.

Let's start with maybe the podcast. And, Mike, I could tell when we met, even through the communication before the last time we did, recording that you had a tremendous amount of not only passion, but knowledge, for the industry.

And, also, the other observation I made is that you look at things a lot differently than a lot of people that I talk to, and I like different.

You're very organized. And I thought, like, after we talked for the first time, I thought, you know what? I think it would be cool if he had a podcast because I'd probably listen to it.

And then Oh, Brad, I appreciate that. Coming from you, that's that's the biggest compliment possible. I I tell people I I consume a lot of content or I produce a lot, but I also consume just as much.

But let's maybe start at the top, Mike. What was the inspiration behind Modern Marvels? Like, what were you trying to accomplish as you put that, idea into action?

Yeah. You know, it's it's, it's, you know, we've been really private for a long time, and I think, we wanted to find something that we felt, maybe was needed in the sports card market.

I I know privately, I you know, we tried to encourage certain people to try to create certain content.

And after a while, we we kind of understood that, hey. You know, you can't just keep on suggesting things. You have to go out there and and and do things yourself. So, after a while, we decided, hey.

Let's let's try to maybe do this. There was a lot with CAMS encouraging that we really wanted to open up what we do behind doors. And, you know, I think I speak a certain way, Brett, about certain things.

Sometimes it's a little bit fast, and it's why Cam is just so perfect for this with us because he's used to the way I talk in office, and he's able to really break it down because sometimes I I skip over points that I think are just, just normal for office talk, but Cam helps to bring it to kind of, like, basically just navigate and and get everybody through it.

By the way, Cam was really, humble there. And, you know, I I I I really wanna point out that we we really went after Cam.

You know? We we saw, how talented he was as a young person, and I like to study athletes and see who's gonna be successful. We plan our, you know, we plan our flag certain areas.

But Cam is as special as it gets. Very, very lucky to have him. I I think the world is just starting to see how special this this young guy is, and we're excited for it. So Cam, just wanted to properly introduce you to the world.

You're always so humble with it, but I wanted to just say, first of all, thank you, Brett, for having us. And Cam, thanks for always being with us. Cam, what did he mentioned you saw something.

Right? You're a part you're jumping in out of college, jumping into the business, hearing Mike, I'm sure, talk about what he's seeing in the athletes and the data and the history of cards and such.

You're you're hearing this, and it's becoming normal for you on a day to day basis. But then you had this moment where you're like, alright.

Well, we should probably use this, what's happening inside these walls, and share it externally, because this will probably, you know, help us as a business get more exposure and help build and develop our brand.

Talk to us maybe about like that. Like, you being a young guy, seeing an opportunity, and not just, like, saying this is something we should do, but actually bring it into action. Talk about, like, how that all transpired.

Yeah. For sure. I think the main thing that I realized at least is when we go and travel to these card shows, whether it be the national or, Burbank, West Coast, West West Side Card Show and West Coast Card Show now.

But it was seeing Mike talk to these people for hours at a time.

Like, it would consume a large portion of it. So, essentially, he was doing the podcast at these shows. That he was answering questions. He was having conversations. You know? All of these things were I could see it firsthand.

And part of this podcast, the main thing that I tell people, my my goal is, you know, as one of the hosts is just to bring Mike to everybody else and help, like he was saying, translate him a little bit better just to there's so much information that goes on be behind, you know, our closed doors.

And, you know, we always say we wanna be purposeful with our work. And if we think that we can bring some good to the world, to the sports car world, then we wanna do it.

So for me, it was just saying, like, hey. There's a lot that I think we can offer that can be good for people. And if this podcast, gives us the platform to do it, then we we wanna take every shot that we can.

One thing that I've picked up from your content is just the this idea of timelessness in cards. And, Mike, when we first started talking, that is something I picked up, from you.

In this world of the industry right now where it's so transactional, it's so, like, get card in hand, sell card in hand. We've got marketplaces that help make this exchange easier.

It's like we're breaking barriers. But, like, when I hear, like, you talk about timelessness, I think about, well, that's something as a collector that I wanna hold on to and wanna hold on to for a long time.

Not only because I maybe appreciate the subject or appreciate the product, but it also, like, if it's timeless, then it likely will increase in value over a long period of time.

So your mindset around timelessness and that being, like, a core principle of, like, Leahy and your content, where is where does that come from?

Yeah. You know, I've I I think everybody's built differently. But for me, I I've I've been around sports cards for over thirty years now and, been around for some good times.

You know, the booms in the nineties, and more importantly, the collapse that lasted for over a decade, maybe even almost two decades. And I think looking at that, it's just a history lesson.

You know? I think those cycles will always repeat themselves. But if you look deep inside even the bust periods, if you will, or, you know, even that pullback we had after the pandemic, there are nuggets inside there.

And I think the the sincerity, the patience, the things that we really, really think are sustainable sports card behavior, if they're applied during those times, you can still find the diamonds in the roughs.

And I think those are the most important things is being able to look at a landscape.

And in a you know, right now, we're in an era where a lot of glitz, a lot of shiny things are very, very popular, and there are very many things that really resemble the that nineties period that we had.

We're we're stepping into it big time right now. I think people thought it was the pandemic boom, but we're seeing some of that behavior here and there.

And so what what we really wanna do here is really point out what a timeless asset is. And it's something that fits a supply demand mold.

You know? I think people sometimes think the sports car industry is a service industry, or a different type of industry, maybe entertainment, you know, but, it's always been a supply demand industry.

And that that one key there, you know, it's a simple principle if if you're into business. But it's something that I think a younger crowd should be taught, even an older crowd that's not used to a supply demand industry.

I think it's very important for them to start to understand what type of assets to look for. You know? It's not just specifically Shohei Ohtani is gonna be great, so let me go buy any Ohtani card.

There's actually specific cards of Ohtani that will go up much, by much larger degrees than his other more common cards. And I think understanding that and trying to really translate that and explain that out is so important.

So got a little bit long winded there, Brett, but to bring it back to timelessness, what we're looking for is something that no matter what the time period, it's always gonna be in demand.

I I you you mentioned his name and, one of the most captivating figures in all of sports and certainly sports cards, Shohei Ohtani.

It it it it's one of the he's one of those figures when I was I was watching, Reds Dodgers, the first series, and my wife came down, and she's like, playoff baseball.

I'm like, playoff baseball is here. And I was like I was like, do you know who Shohei Ohtani is?

And she was like, I've heard of Shohei Ohtani. And I'm like, well, he's about to be up to the plate right now. Like, let's watch. And, of course, in true fashion, he hit the ball out of the park.

And it it was just, like, so on point. I'm like, this I I explained to her. I was like, this is what great players do in these moments. And so I could have replaced great with timeless, as well.

But what what is that like? Like, sidebar on Ohtani because I know you're big Ohtani fans, but what is that like and maybe the opportunity for us as collectors where we're literally watching a living legend.

And this happens in bat. You got LeBron too and Curry, but, like, these guys are active legends playing timeless, athletes.

Do you think as a hobby or a a community of collectors, we realize, like, in real time the opportunity of, collecting someone who is this good and who will likely continue on this trajectory for the rest of his career?

Cam, you wanna answer that one? I mean, on this one, with Otani specifically, I think we just have to, one, take a step back and realize what we're watching that we might not ever see this again in our lifetime.

But, also, when Mike and I talk about penny stocks, like, this is one of those, like, huge home runs that we you could potentially hit on if you're if you do if your process is good, you dream of finding a guy like Ohtani when you do these things.

And now that, you know, he's here, I think a lot of people I think some kinda take it for granted because like you said, this is very transactional.

There are people in here that it it's not about necessarily what the player is doing. It's just knowing that there's money to be had, and they're gonna go after that opportunity.

But for Mike and I, as fans, at least, we just sit back and enjoy it and stick to our process, make sure we stay measured with it, but know that, you know, there's a lot of opportunity that can be had, but also to appreciate greatness when it's there because not everybody is as fortunate to just watch that.

Yeah. And and, you know, if if if I can on my side, you know, I look at Otani, and I think he's what he's doing is amazing. I think his price point right now for his cards justifies the talent.

You know, we actually have two generational talents right now in him and Judge. Judge is putting up some, actually, from the the second he got here, 2017 till now, they're putting up generational numbers.

And the one thing I will say is this. You know, what we look for when we try to do the modern marvels and we look into these different things is we try to pay attention to Judge and Ohtani too, but it's really more about value.

And so I look at Ohtani, and I am reminded of previous guys that were in that same category. You know? It wasn't too long ago that Mike Trout was there. Ironically, Ohtani's teammate.

And actually, right before Mike Trout, Trout and Ohtani's teammate Pujols was in the same exact spot. We're talking about a guy who people really tried to consider both Trout and Pujols maybe the greatest of all time.

They're gonna compete with Bonds. They're gonna compete with Ruth. And so as much as there's a fervent excitement on Ohtani right now and as much as I am a huge fan of Ohtani, I you know, privately, what we're telling everybody is, hey.

There are specific assets you can buy at Ohtani. But if you're going out there and you're buying base PSA nines or base PSA 10 cards that they have pops of 5,000 on, you know, there's a different way to buy botani.

So, you know, if if you have a player you collect, what we really try to encourage everybody is collect, buy what you like. But if you wanna have it for the long haul, if you wanna have collector value, that's for trades.

If you wanna have monetary value in the future, you know, start to study how sports cards work and that supply demand model really, really works.

We came out with our recommendations with Otani, and it's actually cards that we think can fit both.

You know? If he does good, they're gonna be in demand. And even if the production is high, it's such a significant card that so many people can buy that it's gonna make sense.

And so, you know, if you just bought Otani in 2019, if you just bought Otani in 2020, all the cards don't function the same. So what we really try to tell everybody is it's it's, you know, it's great to talk about athlete performance.

And I think what we're specifically wanting to do or tasked to do is really give information on how to research, these individual cards, these sets or these specific cards in a specific set, the same way that somebody would assess different markets.

So, you know, people are big into crypto right now, and depending on what what coin you buy, it functions differently even if they have the same functionality.

And so the same exact way, you know, I've reset it a few times. The sports card market is a little bit like the stock market in that sense.

You can pick tech, but within tech, you have all these different functions, and they all function differently. So Ohtani actually functions as his own market too.

He has a bunch of twenty eighteen cards, and they all will move differently. So we're gonna talk about the current state of the market and but I I wanna hit on this, Ohtani topic before we move off of it.

And I think it's so fascinating, and I think it's just interesting from a a, like, overall hobby perspective, mainstream perspective.

There's a lot of conversations about players going up. But there we know as people who participate in the space and live in the space and build businesses in the space, there's, like, so much so much nuance that goes into it.

And you alluded to that with the Ohtani market and how it's a market in and of itself.

Let's say this. Let's say you've you understand the modern marvel. Let's understand say you understand what those cards are that are gonna have demand if he continues on this trajectory.

Well, all you have to do is look in, like, a tool like Cardliner and see the index and see his most valuable cards continue to go up.

As a buyer and a believer, like, this is a hard dynamic we face as collectors where it's like, has the ship already sailed, or should I jump on now and continue to ride the wave?

Like, when you think about that, because so often I'll hear collectors say, you know, Ohtani, he's wonderful to watch.

I love watching him, but, you know, I didn't buy his cards two or three years ago, and I just feel like I missed out on my opportunity. Like, how do you advise, collectors who come to you all with that same mindset and and mentality?

How do you think about that, or how do you share advice about that with a player like Ohtani? Yes. So Ohtani is gonna fall into that Tom Brady category for me. And, you know, at one time, Brett, I owned over five I'm sorry.

Over 4,000 Tom Brady cards in in our Excel file, and these are investable assets. These are silver prisms. These are serial number, prism cards, jerseys, autographs, just just very, very important Tom Brady assets.

And, you know, I I I bought I for the longest time in our in our Brady portfolio, I only had three cards, but I ended up getting 4,000. I ended up buying these cards in 2019 and early twenty twenty right into that pandemic period.

And it was specifically because I I would take a look at it, and I was you know, I grew up a huge football fan, but a very, very anti Tom Brady guy, probably like you, Brett, because you're you're you're you're indie too.

Right? And so I would never wanted to buy his cards for personal reasons.

But at a certain point, just taking a look at the landscape and analyzing it and looking and looking at a 2017 Select silver prism Tom Brady and just positioning it against a LeBron from the same exact year.

And seeing a LeBron sell for $40 and a Brady sell for $4, they're both considered the GOATs in their sport. You know, you could argue LeBron, Brady is even a higher level GOAT than LeBron because of how much he dominated to that point.

He was already on title number six. And I think at a certain point, when you start to notice that market sentiment is against the person and that there's value there, go for it.

And so for Brady, you know, despite my my personal feelings about it, I went full on into it because it actually represented the biggest market inefficiency out there.

So, you know, for Ohtani, my what we're doing on our side is we're studying, you know, he is definitely the man of the moment.

He's been the man on the moment for a while. But I think people will notice even over the last year, there's small pockets here and there where his market dips, and I think that's the best time to buy.

You know, not necessarily go out there and say, I'm going to buy Otani, but go out there and bid.

Go out there and have some fun and save budget. And what it is is when it comes to you, that's probably the best moment. You know? It it it is about having that patience.

You know, we talk about sustainability a lot of times, and that sustainability is so important because what it means to be sustainable is you have to be able to get those wins and and and be patient to get them.

So I think Ohtani, if I'm to look at his market right now, we actually do see a lot of different assets, specific assets in his market that make a ton of sense.

And at the same time, we see a lot of inefficiencies where we do think even if people buy this today and he wins another world series or two more, they may not make much money or they may not you know, their their cards won't appreciate or they won't have as much collecting value because, specifically, we are in a very, very fervent period of these cards.

Let's, before we I keep I just keep having one more question, but let's just and we don't need to get into the details behind it. Maybe we can save it for another episode.

But just so listeners understand how you think about this and just examples, are there what would be an example of an Ohtani card that you would say is, the card that, you know, would be maybe a modern marvel that you would want to, invest in for the long haul that makes sense?

And maybe what would be an example of a card that, maybe right now is it's too heated up and is a card that likely will lose its value because supply will flood eBay.

Cam, is there any specific examples that you and Mike have been talking about? Yeah. Actually, there's a couple. When we when we first talked about Otani, I think it was one of our first episodes.

We did, like, what we call the trophy card showcase talking about, you know, in different market segments, the the low, the mid, the high, kind of what we liked.

For Otani, specifically, the one thing we highlighted was his low end or even his mid end is, like, the high end of pretty much almost anybody ever. So it's a different ballpark that we're playing in.

One card that Mike and I identified and we really, really liked was his 2018 Bowman Chrome refractor, so the one number to 4 99. Just looking at those and how how they've kind of progressed over time, it dries up really, really quickly.

It's the one card or one of his few cards that we were saying, it it every he has it every single year. So from 2018, his rookie year, till 2025 today, there's a Bowman Chrome refractor number to 499.

So it's something that somebody can chase over time. When we talk about timelessness, that's something right there where every single year, if you wanna collect Ohtani, you can buy that card.

And relative to his Topps Chrome refractors, because you have the the base refractor, the sepia, the prism, the negative, the pink, all of these things have a print run of something like I think Mike said, like, 5,000, maybe more, give or take.

But the Bowman chrome refractor is numbered to 499. So it's something similar, but functions as that timeless asset where we're seeing every single year if you want it.

There's only 499 people that can have it at a time. And I think that that's something that that supply demand model we talk about kinda fits there.

And and to answer your question, Brett, at that tail end, you asked what can they avoid. And so when we talk about timelessness, there's a reverse of it. Right? Things that are temporarily popular and will not have timelessness.

So for Otani, it's easy. And I think, you know, I'll say something after this about avoiding cards. Look. There's a lot of hype on his Dodgers cards right now because, you know, first year Dodgers, 2024, 5050, all these things.

I think if we take a historical look at it, it you know, there'll be a few cards here and there that all the all the huge Dodger collectors, all the huge Otani fans will want from that first year, but it's not gonna be all of them.

So the huge premium that's put on all these first year Dodger cards, I think it it's a little bit worrisome because in the long term's perspective of things, when you look at the inverse of timelessness, that temporary hype that we have going on in those specific cards is twenty twenty four Dodgers cards and is twenty twenty five cards.

I think that is very projectable to Peter off over time as the supply increases year over year.

He has a ten year contract with the Dodgers. Everyone will have a very, very they they have a ton of chances to get him in game use Dodger cards and all these different things. What will happen is the market will get saturated properly.

Everybody will be satiated. And some of those twenty twenty four cards that are expensive right now, relative to how the market how his market moves, you should be able to go back and buy them at relative discounts.

So in other words, if his rookie triples, if all his cards triple, I think those twenty twenty fours will stagnate just a little bit, and they won't triple.

They might go up, you know, they might go up 40% because his entire market is moving.

But you can probably buy the rookies right now, sell them for triple, and then go back and get your twenty twenty four Dodger cards if you have a long term approach to it.

I love it. That's such great insight, and it's fun to zero in on a specific player, a very topical player. I wanna get into the market and what you're seeing. You alluded to it earlier talking about COVID.

I think one of the observations I've made, Mike, has been this looks a little different because I remember the cards that were going up during the COVID boom were, you know, base PSA tens with high supply and that obviously, there are cool cards in the mix there, but all of that came crashing down.

At least, like, now in this market, I'm seeing, like, cards I've never seen before, one of ones go for auction, and and that's been fun.

I'm curious, like, when a we you know, I keep pointing back to, like, the August card ladder industry number, which is, you know, I think $421,000,000 in online sales.

And that's not even accounting to kinda card show activity, which is just astronomical.

It's like a 100,000,000 plus more than any high previous month. When you when you see stuff like that or hear stuff like that or watch auctions and things that, are running through your operation, like, what's your mindset?

Like, do you have a mindset, like, this is eventually going to go in the other direction, or is it, like, we need to ride this wave and this is how we do it? I'd love to kinda gather your perspective as a business owner.

When times are this rich, like, how are you thinking about your operation from a long term perspective? Yeah. In general, I think, history has taught us to be a little bit leery of these situations.

You know, take a step back first and understand that maybe it might not last for forever. That's what we've been taught. I think all the data shows that. All that being said, you know, every situation is a little bit different.

I do think what we're seeing this time is, and we said it in our I think it was two episodes ago. It's it's really amazing what Fanatics is doing here, and it's really amazing what is actually happening with trading cards.

Now the last bust that we went through, the biggest one, the junk wax era, if you if you take a look at what we have today compared to then, we have you know, we're not anybody can put up a card right now and it can sell around the world.

And there are a lot more collections around the world that have access. If somebody wants to buy, a thousand Van Gogh Pikachus, they actually can. It's not they have to go to all these LCSs or go to card shows.

They can actually go there, and they can say that they're gonna hoard these cards. We have different technologies, different information. And what Fanatics is doing right now, it is yeah. I mean, you you probably see it too, Brett.

Brady opened his sixth when we were up in, when we were up in New York. He was opening up, I think, Wrigley Field. And there's plans for Brady to open up more. You know? People buy shoes because Michael Jordan says so.

If Tom Brady says go buy sports cards, I think it's the right direction to take this because it's athlete endorsement, and you're teaching the key athletes how to extend and monetize their careers going forward.

And, you know, we were there on the floor during the Fanatics Fest, whether it was Wen Banyama, Kevin Durant, LeBron.

I mean, they were walking through the aisles. They were buying cards. Alex Rodriguez is a famous video of him too. So, I really applaud Fanatics and what they're doing here. I think we have a slightly different dynamic.

All that being said Yes. You know, when we talk about the pandemic boom and when we talk about the junk wax era, there's huge lessons to be learned there, and this is where we talk about sports cards sustainably.

You know? I hope that those lessons are are really strong. During the pandemic boom, you could have bought some very limited items that are up right now, you know, if you bought the right players and specifically the right cards.

If you bought Zion Willinson, Ja Morant, and, you know, Trevor Lawrence and and and everybody else in in that same category where the pop reports were so high and people were were buying these base cards, you know, famously, bam, out of bio.

We I had cards that were I had Prism rookies that were, like, a dollar 50 a piece.

All of a sudden, they were getting $80 raw for a guy that may be a hall of famer if if he does his best. You know? Those types of situations when there's literally tens of thousands of these cards out there, They really don't fit.

And I think I think what we need to do on our side, you know, we've been doing cards for a while, is really start to tell people maybe not exactly what to buy, but maybe what to avoid.

When you're in these hype periods where everybody thinks the sky is the limit, really start to tell people, hey.

Everybody has thought this before, and it can be. But you need to buy the right items, and you need to have patience. So many ways that I wanna attack this, but something you you said specifically, which I agree.

I agree with the awareness approach that is being taken by fanatics to, shine a light on sports cards through athletes. Like, it's just not any athletes.

It's like we're talking Tom Brady, greatest of all time athlete. And that's cool. And the events are cool. And it gets people excited. I don't think this industry has a problem with an awareness problem anymore, attracting new in.

I think my question is is, well, once they're here, what is the path to get them enlightened and educated enough to not leave after they crap out on a break that they bought into or not leave after they bought a prospect for a card for a $100 that's now worth $20.

And I think a lot of that has to do with, content.

A lot of that has to do with education, what you all are doing with modern marvels. How do you think about the role of education in this kinda new era of the hobby and education in the the form of content?

Like, how do you think we're doing as an industry right now to avoid the churn of new people coming in through the Tom Bradys and the Windbys of the world?

And maybe, like, what what could we what can we be doing as a hobby to make sure we're we're building the right infrastructure to, you know, educate people along the way?

Well, one, there's this pot there's this podcast, called Stacking Slabs. I think people should tune into it.

Great cast all the time, really insightful, and really having the right message out there. You know? And, hopefully, we become a part of that. Also, Brett, what you're doing is amazing, and I think that education process is important.

Cam will tell you this, though. You know, this industry does attract a lot of different types of people. A lot of it is quick money, unfortunately.

And, sometimes, you know, we've run into a lot of very, very smart customers who wanna listen, who wanna learn, who wanna educate, who wanna treat it like a profession, and I think those people will do great.

Unfortunately, there will be people out there that just they don't wanna do it.

You know, they want they want the glitz and the glamour. They want immediate gratification. And I think anywhere in life, you know, that unfortunately, those those will always come and go.

As far as educating those specific people, you know, I think they can be a you know, just like the Patriots before, they could bring in Randy Moss because they had great culture.

If the sports card market over the next five, ten, fifteen, twenty years develops better culture, I think it can be more inviting to bring in people that don't wanna listen and have them start to listen and have them start to understand, no.

This is industry standard. This is how you get good at sports cards. This is how you build a sustainable collection.

But it has to start somewhere. You know? And, Brett, the work you're doing is absolutely incredible. We hope we're just another, you know, just another piece of that that can go out there and really try to tell people, hey.

This is how we've won. You go find your own method. But if you need a resource, we have certain methods, certain things that we talk about. The sustainability of the market is just so important.

I wanna hit on decisions we have to make as operators in this space, especially during these periods of, growth. And maybe I'll I'll get the opinion from both of you individually, and maybe, Cam, we'll start with you.

But just thinking about the the different decisions, and do they become harder for you, when things are going up into the right? Or are you more cautious?

Like, how do you fundamentally think about, like, your role inside the business and the decisions you have to make when, the market is on fire like it is right now? I think for us, the biggest thing is it's never an independent thought.

It's always gonna be a group think, a group discussion about where we think a potential card set could go. So something that we think was a long term asset may turn into a shorter term one just because market says, hey.

This is what we should do. The biggest the biggest thing that I try to tell people to really translate what Mike says is hedging out. And what that is is not necessarily selling out on one specific decision.

So if you think if everybody thinks sky's the limit, I say, well, maybe it is, maybe it's not. So this is when it's good to be able to move off of a little bit, but not everything.

So understanding that you can be wrong is the biggest thing. And that's probably one of the best things that we can say is understanding that the process that Leahy, that Mike has created isn't based on a soul thought.

It wasn't Mike just saying, this is my way or the highway, and I'm gonna do it. It's it's a group of thoughts that he's collected over time, group of opinions from been very, very smart people.

And, you know, that's how my thought process is constructed too is talking with him, talking with other people within our industry, and understanding that if you you you can be wrong, and it's good to know that there's other opinions out there that can help shape a better one.

So, you know, if you are going in one direction, try to poke holes in it, try to figure out if there's anything in there that says that, hey. Maybe maybe I'm wrong here, and maybe there's something I should be doing elsewhere.

I I think that's a really good thing that Mike has always said. So I'll throw it to him now, of course, but I think that's kind of the direction that we try to point people.

Yeah, Brett. To answer thanks, Ken. To answer your question really candidly, personally, I think it's more fun and it's easier to navigate when markets are down and the sky is falling and assets are falling.

You know, it's good to go inside there, get one of ones, you know, generational one of ones for cheap prices. You know, getting gold prisms, these really solid assets for, what I feel are generationally cheap prices.

I mean, that's easy to navigate. You know? I if I can buy a future hall of famer's rookie one of one for a $150, much easier than prospecting and buying them at 500 or $1,500. You know? But when it's moving, I think Cam hit it there.

You know? It's important to really have a long term approach. And if you if if you've won and if the market is running, my best advice to you is, hey. Don't try to grab more money and pour it in.

Work within your budget. You know? See if you there's things that you can move off of that you've done great with that you can share. You know? There's new entrants that wanna come in. They want great assets too.

If all you have are great assets, share some of those, and then you can buy more of things that you like. You can reset. You can pay attention to opportunity cost, and you don't need to buy your specific investment player.

You can move on to the next one because maybe that next guy, you can start from square one again and buy a few more prospects or a few, cheaper guys that you think have hall of fame potential.

And it's really about that holistic sense of really sharing a win.

And, you know, in the end, if we start to get to pandemic numbers too or junk whack era wax era numbers, you know, it it it's not the worst situation to really just play a bystander.

Play a bystander for a bit. If you bought the right cards, go and enjoy your cards for a bit. You know? It's part of collecting. Go back, and while everything is booming, enjoy enjoy being rich.

You know? Look at your cards and just find joy in that instead of going out there and saying, well, I need to go and get more money, and I need to go buy more and more and more.

I need to stop, taking care of my family and all these different things because I can make money. You know, it it's it's a it's a very, very dangerous thing that people jump into, and I I would always advise in these types of times.

You know, I I don't think we're quite yet there yet because I do think there are some sustainability things that we are seeing.

But when we do get there and, you know, there is one sector, in the TCG that definitely is seeming like that right now. I think it is important to maybe just take a breather and say, if it runs, it runs.

You know? That's that's fine. I can turn back around and look, and I'm already up three x. Enjoy that a little. Hedge out a little if you if if that's your desire.

Enjoy reward your family, and then come back. You know? Come back in a few months. If it's still going, it's still going. You can jump back on then. And it can still go up. It can still go down.

You know? That's just the opportunity cost. But I think history shows us that when it's moving in this direction, it's important to be patient. To be patient and to understand that nothing can always go straight on up.

It it just never has happened. It logically cannot happen. I mean, people really do wanna think that we can get a fifteen and twenty x within a year. It's really, really wishful thinking.

And then once that's done, they're not satiated. They want it from that point to fifteen and twenty x. So, essentially, they want a 400 x. You know? And I I I think that reality has to kick in at a certain point.

So we're gonna talk a little bit more about modern marvels, but Cam mentioned something, and I wanna toss it back, to you, Mike, where he mentioned about the group thinking and gathering information and having conversations about theories.

And you are studying, and you have a lot of different inputs.

I don't wanna compare you to a AI model, Mike, but that's the visualization that's going out of my brain right now with all of this information being fed to you. Ultimately, you I'm gonna send this to my wife.

Okay? Ultimately, like, with, you're studying, gathering information, talking with people, your network, and all this thing is getting sent all these ideas and thoughts and data is getting synthesized in your mind.

Like, how do you eventually reach the conclusion of the determination based on this mounds and mounds of data information to go with a certain angle or not go with a certain angle?

Is there, like, a specific, test you have that's finally, like, alright.

I'm all in this way. Or is it is it just kind of organically happen based on just, like, your studying of a specific player said or a product over a long period of time?

Yeah. I'd I'd like to say that there's a method that we could teach in specific, but it's more organic.

And that organic comes from compounding time, effort, and, studying. You know? I I I do believe in sincerity, and the thing is try to study as much as we can.

And when we, you know Brett, for the amount of plays that we make out there into players, sets, or things that we recommend out, we try to put deep thought into it.

You know, we've seen in the past, you know, famously Gary v came out, and he he had all these great thoughts.

And I think I think they're very sustainable thoughts, but the problem with it is it didn't really encompass the domino effect after that.

And what happens with the domino effect is, he said the LeBron tops chrome is a great card. He didn't tell his guys to take it to, like, $30,000, you know, or $18,000, whatever the number was.

He said at a thousand dollars is a good investment, which probably meant to him, it might be worth 2,500 one day. That's a traditionally good investment. As far as what we do on our side is, we try to encompass all that.

You know? If we go public with something, it's something that we think everybody can benefit from. It's not just, hey. You out there buy this one card, this one on this one and only card available.

It has to be something that we can really imagine, hey. This thing has legs even with somewhat bad behavior on the back end of, you know, people trying to make a thousand dollars in a day off of a $100.

You know? But what what I try to do on my side is when we're researching players is just understanding that most times, you're not gonna be lucky.

You know? Most times, it's gonna be a failure, and just keep that in mind when you're researching. You can be hopeful for the player that you saw on TV, but dig deep and start to do the research. If they pass one test, buy a card.

If they pass your next test, go buy another card. Few weeks later, you hear another anecdote about him, makes you feel better about him, buy another card, and slowly start to piece together your collections.

Most of the most successful baseball prospects I've bought, they they just keep on doing that, and I just keep on going back to the well as they pass test after test.

So to answer your question, Brett, it it is a little bit more of when you know you know because they pass all these different tests.

I'm guessing there's probably a little you know you know when you're talking about modern marvels, but it's the name of the, the show that you and Cam have been running with.

I'm I'm guessing not everyone who's listening now has listened to that any of your episodes, and I'll point the listeners.

Make sure you go check out the podcast. We'll put a link in the show notes. But, like, how do you obviously, this idea of a modern marvel is core to your brand and your business. You wouldn't have a podcast about it if it wasn't.

So how do you break down, like, the definition of what what is a modern marvel? Like, if that's, like, the North Star, what are the things that encompass the modern marvel that us as collectors should be looking for?

And I'll pause before I pitch it to you. It's not necessarily, like, you telling us, like, buy this card and buy it now, but, like, us as independent thinkers.

Like, when we're doing our own evaluations of, like, player sets products over the period of time, like, if we had this Modern Marvel's framework in our minds, like, what would it look like and, like, what questions would we be asking, like, the different categories that we collected?

Oh, I can take down part of that too.

So for us, it's it's a very, very broad thing. I think it broad and kinda small at the same time is internally, we know exactly what we're looking for. It's like what Mike was saying with that supply demand model.

When we think about the '86 Jordan, when we talk about we've talked about the o three exquisite, National Treasures. We've talked about specifically for our our brand in formula one was the Lewis Hamilton Dynasty, the 2020 Patch Auto.

We're looking for things specifically like like, we've always talked about timelessness. What do we think will repeat that trend over time?

It's things that are special for a reason. It's things that you can date back to. Like, Mike always says, history always repeats itself. So studying that history is the important thing. I think we're all given the same data.

Right? All of us have access to the same types of information, but it's about how you process that that really makes a difference. So we're looking for assets and for cards that we know over time people will like.

They're important because they they have certain qualities that other things don't. And that I mean, I know we're gonna sound like a broken record with supply demand, but that's really all that it is.

It like, I I don't know how to I don't know how to phrase it any better than that. It's just, like, with the dynasty specific.

I know we're gonna I'm I'm jumping into a little bit of a card here. But Yeah. Let's do it. The reason that that's a highlight of that Modern Marvels brand of this podcast is because we're saying that these things don't exist.

They're drying up. And over time, people are gonna go go back to that first year set and say, well, I have to start somewhere.

They only made three products in that first year, Formula One trading card in 2020. There is Chrome, Sapphire, and Dynasty. Dynasty, that print run was 3,746 total cards made in the entire set.

We said that before. Our guys have have heard that a bunch of times. But that's such a key thing right there. The print run of an entire set is less than some of the print runs of an of of a single card in in other in other sets.

And I think that that's pretty pretty important when we're looking for this. You know? I'm gonna give it to Mike here because he has a little bit more, specifics on that, but that's just kind of like a a baseline for it.

Yeah. Brett, thanks for asking this one because the modern marvels, it's a it's a precious word to me. You know, I feel like I feel like I just I love alliteration.

So I love branding. I they caught my attention right away. I Yeah. Maybe too because I knew you before it dropped, but I was like, oh, I can't wait to listen because I think I know the angle they're gonna be taking with this show.

But go ahead. You know, it it's it's a term that, you know, it actually exists.

Like, I think the History Channel had something about it. They would talk about all these old relics or these, special things. But for some reason, in the mid twenty tens, I I started saying the word privately.

And for me, it gets me excited because of what it represents. So modern marvel is, you know, I think the marvels that we have, or I think the historic relics that we have in trading cards, everybody knows it.

Right? A t two 2006 Hohne Swagger, a 1952 Mickey Mantle, a, '79 Gretzky, '86 Fleer Jordan. All these things right now, they are they're they created great memories for a lot of collectors out there.

I mean, there's so many fond memories of them, what the opportunities they've created for people, the the happiness they've brought to collectors.

They finally found one. Or a collector, they found one and sold one, and and and it took care of all these different things.

You know? What they provide to people in terms of happiness, in terms of the desirability, it's timeless. And I think for a little while, we were getting a period where people thought that, no, those are all old, you know.

Amazing Spider Man number one, it's not gonna be made again. And I I just would look at the modern landscape and say, no. There's no way there's not. You know? They're just in different forms now. Some of them are autographs.

Some of them are still base cards. You know? And true to form, you know, I think people for the longest time, pre pandemic, they said that those cards can't exist again because of oversaturation, production, and everything.

But if we just take a quick look back, you know, a very, very quick look back, you can just see '99 Charizard, 2003 exquisite LeBron, 2009 Steph Curry's, 2017 Pat Mahomes.

You know, we we're we're given these things very periodically. These these are not exactly limited items too. These are readily available items.

Now I mentioned the LeBron RPA. That card at one point was under $10, and it it serves above the million dollars. So what we're talking about here is, you know, looking and our our search to go and find the next modern marvel.

And and the thing I'll tell everybody is this, and it's one of my favorite things, you know. Amazing Spider Man number one is one of the most expensive comic books ever made.

And the reason why I love to point it out to people who want to understand collectibles is because for a book that's now, you know, a quarter million dollars in its in its higher conditions and over a million dollars in its top conditions, It actually says in the front of it 10¢.

It actually says right on the front of it what it costed long time ago. And if you wanna know and understand collectibles, what we're looking for here, it's literally looking at the landscape right now.

In our first episode, we recommended an Ohtani card, a rookie card that was, under $60 raw, which is almost unheard of, but it's something that we think can maybe go on that trajectory.

So, you know, as far as the modern marvels, we think that what we wanna do here is we wanted to make it a community effort for us to first broadcast what we think may be a modern marvel and to hear about other people's modern marvels.

And, you know, thankfully, we have been getting a lot of feedback from people. They've been telling us they want a Lewis Hamilton episode.

We are getting requests for Aaron Judge episode. And we wanna do is really take a deep dive into these different athletes and try to find, different things that we can broadcast about.

One more on this topic, and a question I have that I'm thinking about it, especially, cam when you're talking about the Hamilton and the the supply drying up.

Like, when you are defining Modern Marvels, how big of a role does last sale data play in kind of you painting your picture of this is what we determine as a modern marvel?

Like, obviously, I'm assuming that a card that doesn't sell every week or maybe even every month would qualify, but I I would love to kinda get how big of a role, like, last sales data plays and kind of you all creating your, you know, theories around which cards will sustain and last for the long haul.

Yeah. I mean well, last sale well, for Formula One specifically, last sale is important, but it's also not something that we just use as, like, the bible and say this is this is a 100% what it's worth.

Because when we talk about supply drying up, there's a reason these things don't show up. So last sale, there could be private sales that happened in between that we do or don't know about.

But a lot of these things, it's about that long term outlook that we have in saying that these things can they can grow over time or they can drop a little bit, whatever the numbers show.

But if we believe in a card long term, the the numbers that are presented in front of you don't always matter as much. It's about how you read that same data.

So we can look at the same number. Mike and I can look at the same number as a person outside of this office, and we may interpret that completely differently because we either have different information or we have a different thought.

And it's it's about going on that on that line and saying, if you have a good thought, stick with it until you see something that says it's not, you know.

I'll give it to Mike on this one because I think he can, again, answer this a lot more specifically, but wanted to at least bring that out.

Yeah. Brett, last sales for me, it it just represents price tag, of what an investment or if if it's investable or if it's a good asset at that price. So I think, what we try to do is really just project forward.

We try to look at assets and last sales price, if it's too high, it's just not it's just not gonna fit in our wheelhouse. Last sales price really just represents the first stone.

Whether it's a step down or a step up, depends on that price relative to what we believe a card should be worth now and in the future. So there are overpriced assets and there are underpriced assets.

You know, just to talk a little bit more, if we can give one thing to just everybody out there and the one thing that I encourage everybody, you know, you you to your credit, Brett, you in our prep, you asked me a really significant question that I wanted to give an answer to.

You know, have we seen any long lasting signals in the market?

And I think this one is really, really tough to break down. It takes a lot a long time. But what what I always go back to with this is there's logical collectibles out there that make the most sense.

So I mentioned comic books because I do come from a comic book background where that market really, really became, sustainable for a very, very long time because it was built the right way.

Now in comic books, whether you like Spider Man, Superman, X Men, Batman, everybody likes the number one comic book. You know? And while they were available, it's a great idea to buy that number one comic book.

So from now until forever, doesn't matter when a person picks up a comic book of either of these guys or watches a movie, They're gonna want the number one issue, and that's why that issue has so much significance to it.

In the sports card market, you know, we have these things every once in a while. 52 TOPS, 99 Pokemon, 2,003 EXquisite, twenty seventeen TOPS CHROME soccer. And, you know, more recently, we've been broadcasting this for forever.

But the twenty twenty Formula One, these things, no matter when a person starts collecting baseball TOPS baseball cards or Pokemon or exquisite or any formula one for the next ten, twenty, thirty, forty, even seventy years, they're gonna want that first set.

They're gonna want that first issue. So 52 tops is protected in that sense.

And so what we look around for is not just special athletes that are in a specific situation for a prospect, but we also look for something that we know even if a market booms and bust, it'll always come back there.

So let's say Formula One bust, let's say the entire card market bust, five years from now when it has its moment again, they'll come back to that 2020 set.

And so for us, that's foundationally safe advice that we feel like, hey. You know, if you're gonna put your money into Formula One anyways, you might as well do this.

If you're gonna put your money into a football prospect in NFL, a quarterback, Michael or Justin Fields, go buy some formula one too because that's a first year set that's a rare opportunity.

Something so basic, but I feel like doesn't get the coverage that it deserves. Yeah. It does. It it took me it took me five years to really focus in on the first year of it all, and it's important. So I'm glad, you brought it up.

There's so much more that I would would love to get into, and maybe we'll save it for another day. But maybe I'll we'll let you go. Just trying to figure out what's on deck for, Leahy for, the rest of the year heading into 2026.

Like, where are your primary areas of focus right now? Yeah. We're gonna keep on making our push to, you know, do it cards as holistically as we can.

We say sports cards done different. We try to take a more measured approach. People ask, hey. Is it bad to give advice? And on my side, I don't know the right answer, you know, but we try to just give the open advice that people call.

We try to help out as much as we can. Idea is it it'll come back around to us eventually. As far as the plans going forward, we did debut our Modern Marvels product a few months ago.

It did sell out. It is a special product that is limited in quantities. We will be having a new product coming out later on, but I am happy to say that first product, we sold out the entire SRP on the product was $30,000.

After just one month, we recalculated market values. And I'm a conservative person with my numbers. But after one month, market value resale value basically was 42,000 on the product.

We're excited to actually recheck in because market has been moving, and my anticipation is that we're gonna break that 50,000 barrier on that product soon.

Everybody who has bought initially, they can look forward to that coming back out again. Everybody who hasn't, it's it's called the modern marvels product.

What we wanna do is actually bury what we feel our future modern marvels in this product. And we get a bunch of shots at it, and, everybody gets to come along with us on the ride for this.

And, hopefully, we just keep on performing the way we do. Cameron, Mike, always a pleasure. Looking forward to do another one of these down the road sometime soon. Thanks so much for your time. Thanks, Brett. Keep being amazing.