Alright. We are back with another episode of Passion to Profession brought to you by my good friends at eBay.

Excited for today's conversation. I have been having chats with today's guest for the better part of this year, and we got an opportunity to sit down and meet at the national and talk.

And after I was on the way back home, I thought, you know what? I think he would be a great guest for this series, so I'm joined by Scott Locke who is the CEO and cofounder at Inferno Red Technology.

He's got a real cool story about building a business in this space with his son on eBay and then also building a business that serves the technology needs of hobby businesses.

So we're gonna dig into those topics and a lot more. But without further ado, Scott, welcome. How are you? Hey, Brad. Thanks for having me. This is exciting.

This is our first, podcast together. So looking forward to it. Yeah. I this will be a fun one. I'm excited to dig in, learn more about Inferno Red technology and what you're building, but I felt like maybe a good place to start.

And I got a chance to meet your son. But when we first started talking, you talked about your connection through cards and the relationship you have with your son through cards and being entrepreneurial and building a business.

Let's start there. Like, how did you start selling cards with your son and selling cards with your son on eBay?

Well so, I mean, I I've been collecting since I was his age, and younger. So when he was, I don't know, nine or 10 I have two boys, Christopher and Morgan.

And when, Christopher was that age, nine or 10 years old, we started going to our local card shop, which here in Northern Virginia, like, we are, lucky enough at least early on that, Blowout has their local shop here.

So, in terms of access to to products, it was it's pretty it was pretty readily available. And the the the guys that work there, really did well to introduce us to the hobby and the difference between hobby and retail.

And we went and started buying you know, graduated from Target and Walmart into going into an actual hobby shop, like I did when I was younger.

I didn't even realize, like, that's what I was doing when I was younger. But then started, you know, buying enough cards that, it got to the point where we were like, you know, I can't just keep stacking all these cards up.

Like and and in hindsight, like, the amount of cards we had was really not that crazy compared to what we have today.

And then they introduced us in the shop, like, how to list a card on eBay, and we sold Christopher sold his first card.

It was a Rico Gathers NT Collegiate from 2016. And, you know, he was a he's a dual sport athlete, and we sold it, for, like, two hundred and twenty five dollars and, like, couldn't believe it.

Like, could not believe that we sold a card for that much money. And it sold we it snapped sold, like, while we were in the store. So that kinda lit the fire, for at least listing on eBay and kinda kicking things off.

So the the build out of the store on eBay and kinda the continuation, what is maybe, what does that look like in terms of how the operation has worked between you and your son in in building that side business?

Like, is it mostly, buying singles, selling them, opening hobby boxes, and taking what you don't want and putting them on the eBay store?

Maybe share some perspective there. Yeah. I mean, I think for us, like, it started I mean, we were collectors first.

Like, we weren't trying to, like, make it into a business. In fact, Christopher and I, as he got older, like, we get into these, like, huge, arguments on, like, oh my god.

I don't want this to be a business. And so, that that started by us opening boxes and and and to like you said, keeping what you wanted.

I think, you know, buying into breaks when breaking was, like, very early on. You know, Breaker TV was, like, the the primary source of streaming, which was horrible.

It was a great start, I suppose, like, for the industry, but, like, in hindsight, I, you know, I always I always thought there was much better ways to do it, especially being in tech.

But, Christopher, we started to buy into, like, Leighton's breaks early on.

He was the first the first breakers. They got to know us through the chat, which was kinda cool. And that was, like, where we started to get our higher end cards because we would hit in breaks.

And then just over time, you know, opening boxes, which is always a gamble, but it was it was a little bit different. It was more exciting treasure hunting when you're a little kid.

The excitement of opening boxes, it was much much higher than, like, buying singles and and then doing something with them. So that's kinda where, like, the the, the sheer amount of cards, like, grew.

And then what happened was just Christopher, like, continued to buy and sell, and then he we we really started to get addicted to, like, listening listing the things on eBay and selling them, and then pack packaging them up and shipping, which I helped him with.

I mean, I mean, of course, like, he was a little kid, so, like, I financed a lot of it. But, but by the time he was 15, he was doing, like, $250,000 a year on eBay.

So I had to it's crazy. Like, I had to spin up an LLC, and that was, like, the the birth of Steel CUDA cards, which is our actual, like, entity that is our side business.

And so that, you know, that led to him, you know, gradually understanding the value of money because you get this little kid who's, like, 10, 12.

And you see it, like, at places like at the National and TradeNights. These kids come up with bags of cash, you know, $10.

15, $20,000 in cash, and they're like, hey. You know, we would take $2 for that card, and you're like, you know how valuable like, that is that's not a, you know, an insignificant amount of money.

And, you know, my wife had a hard time understanding, like, when, when we would say, like, hey. Like, oh, that's not that bad. That card's only, like, a thousand dollars.

You know? Like, oh my god. Like, it's nuts. He so over time, he eventually, like, started to realize, like, what what the value of money was, I think, to the point that he got interested in, you know, business himself.

And now he he's in college, his third year of college, and, he's really and majoring in business administration.

And this is what he's going to do. Like, I don't have any doubt. And I know that this is I already do this with him. And, you know, Infernal Red is our, you know, my primary, you know, business as, you know, cofounder and a CEO.

I have to run that business, and that is that luckily for me and I know we're gonna talk about this, but as an entrepreneur, like, I found ways to blend those two things together, you know, to to bring the passion of collecting and and working with my son into my everyday world of technology and software engineering.

So, that's been fun.

And then to unlock the the people on my team who are also collectors, like Ed, who you met, at the national and like these and, you know, get a chance to actually work on things that we, as collectors, are using on a daily basis.

And that's really how our business kind of blew into the into the hobby from a technical perspective because we were consumers of these products, and we were clients of, you know, COMC and DC Sports.

And, you know, we wanted to work with them to say, hey. We can make these things, you know, better. We should work together.

And that's kinda where, you know, things led. But it all it all started, from what Christopher and I were doing and, you know, the the moment when the the team that those same people from blowout introduced me to Eric Doty from Loop.

And, Christopher and I were standing there, and they told us about this platform they wanted to build.

And Eric was like, I got this idea, and I'm sitting on some series a funding, and I'm gonna hire. I'm like, I own a software engineering company, and we are experts in the hobby.

Like like, this is crazy. And he was like, yeah. Yeah. We'll see. And then two weeks later, he messaged me on LinkedIn and was like, hey. I can't hire anybody. Can you guys help me get this to market?

And that's where we started literally four years ago, almost to the day. Since then, it's, you know, over well, I think it's, like, eight to 10 different major companies in the space that we've worked with.

And it's because Christopher and I were going to the national since he was a little kid and just, you know, ripping wax and collecting and flipping and selling and, you know, it's it's it's pretty crazy.

I wanna dive into Inferno Red more and definitely spend some time there.

Before I do, I wanna I wanna maybe one more on just the relationship with your son and building the business. You made mention of, like, spending up an LLC and 250 k in sales. From and you're an entrepreneur yourself.

What has that been like for you to see that entrepreneurial drive in your son, Christopher, and, like, your ability to not only maybe, like, share, like, your exact playbook of, like, this is what I've done and this is what you should do, but just, like, share your experience with him through something like collecting sports cards, but but also kinda like that flame of, being an entrepreneur now and and taking that into the future.

What's that experience been like? I mean, I well, I mean, it's, like, it's every parent's dream.

Right? I mean, you you, you you take them to that first baseball game or basketball game. You know, the you know, basketball was huge in our house. Like, we're, like, massive, massive.

I it Unfortunately, had season tickets to the Wizards. So he suffered that pain. So you go to these games and you you you spend so much time talking about sports, and then you cross over to collectibles.

And his brother's similar but, you know, slightly different. He likes different types of of things. You know, Pokemon started it all, and then it transferred into sports and especially with Christopher.

And to to kinda, like, see see the transformation of, like, not under like, I literally like we said, like, he really just didn't understand the value of money because he didn't have to earn it.

And I've been working from home for thirteen years because our business started that way.

And so he didn't see me, like, leaving to go for work. So we were always, like, together doing things, and then I would come and work in my home office or whatever.

So I feel like there was, like, this this understanding of what it meant to start a business, and really understand, like, how revenue works and how profit margins work.

And, you know, that $250 was like, that's revenue. Right? That's that wasn't profit. And so over time as and he really just had to mature into it, and I think he is, and he's still learning, obviously, and I'm still learning.

Right? We're just you know, we're we're, we're always learning what we can do and what's better in the business. But it's, I mean, it's magical, man.

Like, this is it's very satisfying to know that I think in the next few years and, like and it's already happened, obviously, in the last ten, but the next few years, like, our path will really cross over, and it'll be right at the age where he's starting his career and his life and whatever he's going to do full time.

And that I'm going to be able to be there with him and potentially do it, as in seriously as a business with him, more serious than we're doing it today.

But, like, it's he just for example, we just invested in a in a, LeBron James, refactor. I don't even remember the grade on it, but, like, number to two twenty, like, the largest card that we personally bought in I was on vacation.

He's like, dad, I think we should get this card. I said, how much is it? He's like, $16,000 I'm like, what? And he's like, yeah.

And then we talked through it and we talked about, like, the, you know, the the, Mr. Wonderful Sale and on the the dual logo man and how that raised all the value of, like, high end cards, especially the legends and and, you know, me.

And so we're like, okay. Like, this is an investment opportunity. Let's do it. And so he's thinking that way. Right? So he's not just thinking about, like, you know, can I rip boxes and maybe we get something?

He's like he's heavily, heavily, heavily more into singles, from where he was before. But, yeah, it's magical. Like, it's like I I can't describe how exciting it is.

Yeah. I love it. Alright. So let's let's jump into Inferno Red Technology and the origin story behind it. You're obviously an entrepreneur. I wanna maybe get an understanding of how Inferno Red came to be as a business.

Like, what was the problem you were all solving? And you alluded to it a little bit, but then how Inferno Red started to point in the direction of hobby businesses and starting working with hobby businesses.

Talk through that. Yeah. Sure. I mean well well, before I do that, I do wanna shout out, like, on Instagram, Christopher's contenders god.

You should definitely if you're not following him, you should follow him. I promised him I'd give him the shout out. But, yeah, he's got his list everything up there.

But, you know, for Infernal Red, I mean, we started I was a software developer for I've been a software engineer for thirty years. I mean, I haven't written code in a long time. But when we started our business, we were like, hey.

We can build a better consulting software engineering business. And we wanted to focus on commercial clients and do things that we thought was meaningful and interesting. That was our our primary goal.

We wanted to build awesome software. It's one of our taglines and and that we wanted to, be a company for developers by developers. And that's how we started. And so we got lucky, and I'm a community, leader in the space.

And so I had a user group, which are now meet ups, and we we got lucky. And somebody was looking for a consulting company, like, a couple weeks after we started, and and that kinda kicked things off.

And and we just kept doing this what I what's called, what an author, and I can't take credit for it, terms. Oh my god. The, what's the term?

Not transitional, but when you're when you're when you're moving through different things and and trying different things, anyways, where you ramp up, you you take advantage of the opportunities and you ramp it down as quickly as possible.

Like, that's our pattern and our style. So over the years, that's what we did. And then, fortunately, as I mentioned with the Eric Doty in the in the loop story, for the hobby, we we crossed over, like, we did in other industries.

We used to build for we started building for Windows phone when Windows would, like, ding.

Just crazy because people are like, what? And then that turned into iOS and Android and and, you know, mobile work and then cloud and and, like, we just started getting more and more clients and bigger clients.

And then eventually got the opportunity to cross over into collectibles and then the hobby. And, you know, that's that's really when it comes down to, like, finding, like, the things that people are passionate about in our team.

And it's not just me. Right? It happens I just happen to be this is the space I'm passionate about amongst other things.

But we've had over the years where people are passionate about certain technology or a certain space, and we'll I'll lean in heavily because that's where you're gonna get the most, engagement and people willing to go to events and talk about it and create content, which I know, like, obviously, like, is a big part of of your business.

And, you know, that's where the innovation happens. And, so, you know, we're we're lucky to be able to have done that.

And then even now, like, we're still finding new ways of doing it. Obviously, you know, AI is the the, soup du jour, and it's, it's happening faster than anyone who's not paying attention can would ever believe.

And it's a huge opportunity for us, but it's also, like, an existential challenge, for software engineers in general.

But I think that we're taking, you know, we're taking strides in using that for a lot of different things, in our business.

But, that's how we started. And, you know, now we're we started with three people, myself, two business partners, Josh and Art. And now we have just under 50. This is our fourteenth year.

And when we stayed effectively, not there's nothing wrong with federal government contract work, but we've we stayed commercial because that's where we think the fun is. And that's allowed us to kinda focus on the things we like to do.

How important do you think it's been for you and other members of the team to have that domain expertise in, like, the hobby being collectors yourself, and then doing development work for hobby business, being able to, like, talk the talk and speak the language, not the the coding and the tech language, but just, like, the industry language.

How how important do you think that's been for Inferno Red to keep elevating your position in in the, tech space in the hobby? I mean, that's the differentiator for sure.

I mean, like, there's no question. Right? I mean, I think, the fact that you don't have to explain to an engineering team, like, why cards matter, why does grading matter, like, what does it mean to to do a break?

Like, you know, why why the hobby cares about you know, the collectors care about set making versus, you know, individual cards or or whatever it might be.

I mean, that's that to me having initially having a team that was passionate and involved in that.

And I'm I I mean, I was definitely a catalyst for it with my team, but there are you know, you we have several team members who now are very much into the hobby.

They were they were before, and now they're even more. And now they've had a chance to actually work on it.

I mean, we got to the point that over, you know, over 50% of our team has worked on some project in the hobby. And so I think when I sat down, for example, with Tim Gatch and was like, hey.

We were I was like a big comp c client customer customer, and I I sent thousands of cards to them. Right? I mean, like, fifteen, twenty thousand cards. I don't even remember. We used to send boxes and boxes, and we met Tim.

He used to do this thing called time with Tim at the national, and we'd schedule a meeting. And I sat down in 2018, and I was like, Tim, there's no mobile app for this, and the website is horrible. Like, you need to let us help you.

Like, we can help you. And Tim is a tech guy, former Microsoft, like but he loves cards, and he was like because this is his baby. And he he said, now is not the right time. We're working on logistics in the back end.

Let's talk about this, you know, in the future. And we left, and I was like, oh, man. Like, he doesn't understand. We can help him. Like, I was so I thought for sure, like, he would want our help.

But then, right after COVID, we sat back down with him, and I said, Tim. Like, it was a last minute meeting I scheduled. I'm like, hey. We're back. What do you think? And he was like, perfect time.

And we started working with CompC, and we built their first mobile app. We launched it at the at the national a couple of years ago. We rebuilt their website, which I know that they're hopefully gonna be launching sometime soon.

But at the end of the day, like, he said to me he said that one of the key reasons we wanted to work with you is because we don't have to explain to you why cards matter.

And that was really important. And, you know, that obviously started with Loop, and then and we went to Collector's Universe. We went we worked with Golden. We worked, I mean, there's a a number of companies in the hobby.

Upper Deck is our second largest client. Our largest client in the space, we work with them. There's nobody doing what we're doing in the hobby when it comes to tech and software engineering.

There's just there isn't. Like, I don't if there is, I haven't heard of them. And, like, my goal in life is to get out there and promote the hobby, what matters in collecting, and then the tech behind it.

And and then, obviously, for Infinera Red, we wanna build and help enable people to build their ideas and then work with big companies, small companies because we just really love love building software, and we love the fact that we can do it in something that we're passionate about.

So You you had that early conversation with Eric at Loop and then Tim at ComC, and, obviously, you're interested in these types of business based on, you know, the business you're working on with your son and your own personal collecting.

And then, you know, flash forward, and we're having conversations, and I'm learning, like, how big of a priority, the hobby and hobby businesses are for Inferno Red.

When did you get to that moment where you realized, well, this isn't just like a one time project, but this is like this is not a this is such a big opportunity for us that, like, we need to develop, like, a strategy around how we, you know, get in front of these types of businesses and how we can let them know since no one else is doing it that we can help them.

Yeah. I mean, I think I mean, in general, I mean, I think just the experience of, like, building a business from the ground up and bootstrapping it, and and we've never taken any investment money.

It's just been the three of us out there doing what we do and then building up to the team that we have, understanding what it takes to sell in consulting.

And and we're a services business, so, you know, we have to go out and talk to people and and see what it you know, what would it take to build, you know, their idea or or build their product or features or or or staff aug with them.

Like, they might have a great team. And what we found, I think, for in the collector's space, it was it was a it was a chance, obviously, encounter with Tim in 2018 and then, you know, four years ago with with Eric.

I always whenever I went to the national, I would look and I heard Chris talk about this on your your last episode.

Like, it's wild west. You look around and you're like, oh my god. Like, there's so there's so much nontechnical things at the national. Right?

I mean, obviously, like, cards in general are physical cardboard pieces. And then there's this emergence of tech over the last few years with, like, companies trying to create, you know, visual AI tools to capture and things like that.

We did that ourselves. We tried. You know, it's a very difficult problem to solve. I know Haystack and some of my companies are doing a pretty, pretty awesome job doing it.

But at the end of the day, like, it's, like, it's the tip of the iceberg. I mean, there's there's so many opportunities in the space. I mean, data in and of itself, like, just the amount of data that's out there.

And I know, like, Card Ladder and what they're doing and and some other companies, Beckett, like, the amount of information I mean, ComC, DC Sports, these guys all have, like, tons and tons of data, and it's just getting easier and easier to use that data.

But like Chris said, at the end of the day, like, if you're not solving a business problem and it doesn't apply to, like, the collectors in the space, then it's nobody will care.

Like, I loved his story about what he was saying about how he built the the score and card ladder.

And I remember that, like, when it came out and I was weird. So I had the same reaction that he talked about. Like like, what is this doesn't make any sense. I don't even know what this is. Right?

Like, what factors are in this score? But it was the other core features that really mattered, like, the you know, to be able to have eventually have a collections and and just track value, you know, alt and all these other places.

But that's, you know, that drove the passion for these things, and then it was easy.

And then once you once that part once you have the passion, I really think that, you're just relentless in going out there and talking about what you do and then looking for opportunities to serve the clients, right, and and serve the hobby.

Right? We don't wanna work on things that we don't think would actually, like, serve a purpose. I mean, because there's a ton of stuff out there where it's like, you know, okay.

Like, why? Like, there's no reason to do what what they're doing, and they're throwing tech at it trying to get it to happen. And those companies are gonna, like, you know, stand up for a while and then they'll fail.

But if you can find, find ways to really apply technology to solve these business problems, which is, like, that's the recipe in in software engineering and in in tech in general, then you're gonna be great.

We just get to pair it up with something that we're super passionate about. So I, this is a space that I really love and just taking from my previous career in technology.

I observe quite a bit, what's happening on the tech side, and it's fun to meet someone like you who's living and breathing it and building solutions and working with a team that's trying to drive innovation through the hobby.

And I think you and I will be having more of these conversations to come, and I'm really excited about it.

But I would I would love to maybe understand just from your seat and what you're seeing in the hobby in that industry, maybe what are some challenges that you've noticed companies in the hobby face that maybe in comparison to some other industries you're working on?

Like, where I guess, where are we at from a tech perspective in the hobby through your evaluation of it right now?

I mean, I think it's a great question. I think that, there are there's this thing where, like, you know, technology for the sake of technology's sake. Right? I mean, tech for the use the sake of tech.

And and I feel like that that, that elusive, AI use of of using, vision to try and capture cards was one of those things. Right? Where they're trying to serve, like, two per two two different client bases.

You're like if you're a collector and you're trying to, like, capture cards or or you're at the national or you're at a card shop or whatever, and you're trying to scan the card to get it, like, it just didn't work.

It doesn't work. I I'm I don't no offense to, like, the companies out there who have it in their products. But when you in practice, I almost you never see it.

You never see it. Right? It's much faster to pull comps or to find a search card with, like, text and a strong search engine. Like, it just works better. Like, card ladders works great.

EBay works great. Like, as long as there's connectivity. Right? Like, that's that's also the other challenge there. But, but so everyone was chasing this thing of, like, trying to be able to to use AI to scan and and identify cards.

And the truth is, like, there's just so much differentiation on the visual aspects of a card. It's almost impossible. Prism and every variation around it makes it very, very difficult, and you get frustrated.

It's, like, good enough, but not great. And so there is an example of, like, people using tech to solve a problem where if you're a collector, like, it's not very useful.

Now if you look at what, like, the other companies, like, again, like a haystack and, I forget the other, it's, I forget the other company who's working on this problem.

It's. I can't remember. But, like, I know Haystack for sure because they work with some clients of ours.

Like, now they're solving a problem for like, that's a b to b solution in what they're doing. Now there's this idea that people will scan their collections and use it to create their to create their collections.

But people like if general size collections like, I feel like they generally like to go through it and capture it and maybe they don't do the whole thing.

They just do their, like, top 50 or whatever it might be. And then there'll be, like, the power, the power collectors who wanna scan everything, and then they just get overwhelmed by how much they have.

But if you're listing and you're somebody who's, like, trying to make money in the hobby, which you've had a lot of guests and people talk about this on your show, and you see it when you go to the national and you go to your local hobby shop, like, somebody who's a collector with their kids versus somebody who's buying cars to flip and try to make money and complaining about the percentage they're getting bought they're they're buying at.

Like, that's a different story. So they might have an eBay store, and they might be putting up a lot of inventory, and they just move through cards at a different base.

So that's where, like, that scanning technology might be useful. Or you're, you know, you're you're a a consignment company who has just sheer volume of what you take in. Those things are helpful.

So I think, like, that's a challenge in tech. Right? Understanding the the the customer that you're trying to serve and then using the technology and and finding a way to make it apply, to the problem you're trying to solve.

And that's one of the ones that just jumps out on me because I've that is, like, literally the red herring that's been been chased around for the last several years.

I think back to that conversate your earliest conversation in 2018 with Tim that you're sharing where Tim worked at Microsoft.

He worked in tech. He built the tech for Com c. So Yeah. You you all could talk the same language. I, in fact, sat on a couch and watched you and Tim chop it up at the national.

How challenging is it, maybe to have conversations with nontechnical people in the hobby who you know you can help because their business is scaling, but that you might evaluate their tech setup and you you know instantly I can help you?

Like, how do you break through those barriers and just have a real conversation about how we can help so you're not talking with someone who's nontechnical and their head spinning trying to figure out what you're talking about?

Like, what have you learned, maybe in some of those conversations that you're you're currently having? I mean, I think that I mean, that is always a challenge because it's, it's very difficult to turn it off sometimes.

Right? You get because I'm as excited about technology and coding and software as I am about sports collectibles and and sports.

So, I find myself, sometimes, like, blending it in in ways that I I don't even realize that I'm like I might be talking over somebody in on the tech side.

And it because then you like you said, you'll sit down and talk to somebody like Tim who's, like, super technical and understands it, and, like, he's sharing ideas.

And, but we have other we have somebody recently that we're working with, on a collectible, on a on a hobby project and with no tech background at all.

And I realized, like, even in just, like, the process of, like, working with them on a project that we had to, like, change the vocabulary a little bit, and change the approach and how we how we have those discussions.

I mean, it's true. It's not just a hobby. Like, it's true about, like, any industry, when you're sitting down with customers. And that's when I think the key things, whether it's the hobby or our business.

Like, we we take pride in the fact that, like, we truly, like, get involved and understand the business problem in the business that we're working with. Like, we wanna understand, like, why do you care about this?

Like, why does this part matter? Like, why does this specific function or feature or screen or whatever it might be? Like, why does that matter to the problems you're trying to solve?

And what's the impact on, like, your customer? And the hobby is a little easier because we are we are consumers of of the of the tools that we build. So it's like so I'm like the worst. Like, I'm like a little kid.

I go in there. I'm like like, you know, we're working on some things, and it it's no no, no secret like DC Sports eighty seven. I'm a huge fan, huge user, sent them thousands of cards. I just got a payout today.

Oh, you did. Awesome. Yeah. Well, yeah, we built that. Right? So, like, they're a big client of ours. We work with them and and replatform them, and all that functionality with a really small team and an efficient team.

And, you know, anytime, you know, I get on the phone with Tory and talk about these things. Like, I know he knows his business, and he doesn't need me telling him. But I'm like I'm like, Tory, this is amazing. Oh, hey.

You should what about this? And he's like, yeah. I hear you, Scott. Like, you know, great. Like, and I get excited about it. So I'm like I'm like the worst when it comes to that stuff because I wanna, like, test everything and use that.

I don't have I don't have the the bandwidth to, like, get into all of it, but with, you know, across all these, clients in the collectible space.

But, I mean, you just kinda have to, like, adjust and, you know, I think really invest time in making sure you listen.

I mean, that's the biggest thing. Like, you just have to listen and understand, you know, what they're saying and pay attention and and, you know, not try to prescribe everything.

That's amazing that Inferno Red built that. I I was so fired up just to get the payout and hit the button, and then it's amazing. It works. And you look over in your account, and there's the money.

And it's like, wow. I wish it could It was always this easy, and that's just, I think, tech what tech can do. And I think oftentimes, like, member long standing members of the hobby, you know, they resist change.

They resist technology. You know, I don't think, you know, I think people believe in making things better, but everyone's always very protective of the way things have been. At least that's my perception.

And whether it's individual users that you talk with or business owners, what's maybe something regarding tech that you wish, more individuals in this space, thought about or had an understanding of, that you've observed?

And so from the more people in the hobby understood about tech or I actually I I saw that, we're talking and and preparing. Like, I almost wanted to reverse that question.

I think it's like, I think there's more things that I wish people in tech understood about the hobby. Mhmm. Because I think that and I really resonated with I you know, started to keep going back to Chris's, Chris's episode.

But when he he was talking about the fact that there's, you know, professionals that come into the hobby and bring those skills, I think that's true on the tech side especially.

Right? So, like, I think that there's a lot of people in technology who are either software engineers or understand how to build platforms or how to apply technology to, you know, to whatever the problem might be.

If they knew and understood more about the hobby and things like we just talked about, understanding, like, there's collectors and then there's people who are sellers and then there's buyers.

And, you know, what does it look like, when you're at and then a large event like the national?

Like, what happens what are the problems that we can solve with technology and, like, create efficiencies that that makes it a better experience for a collector and understand that business better than the reverse, which is, like, you know, you just you you just understand that you're in the hobby.

The the I think that the ramp and the barrier for for tech is is is much higher, you know, barring AI and things like that.

But, like, at the end of the day, like, I feel like there's a better opportunity for people who are in the tech space who could start to learn and understand more about the hobby.

So many times so many times with nonhobby customers, I'll sit down in a meeting, and I inevitably, I talk about our customers and who our biggest industries are.

And sports is our biggest. We we work with a very large, US based, league, that does not play football or hockey or soccer or baseball, that I can't say, unfortunately, due to marketing restrictions.

But when we anytime we talk about, like, our second largest, which is the hobby, you know, we talk about the fact of, like, cards and Pokemon and, like, all these things, and people are like, oh, yeah.

Like, I is that a thing? Is that still a thing? Or, like, I have some cards. You should look at them.

Like, oh, I I 90% of the time, like, I'm getting a connection, not because of just, like, the what their problem is, but because they have either their their kids or they have a box of cards or a binder, and they're like, you should look at this.

And that's a great icebreaker there. But, like, you know, generally speaking, like, they're those people, those in those, areas and, usually, these are, like, CTOs and, you know, development, team, folks.

Like, they just don't even realize, like, like, that the hobby is as big as it is.

Because unless you're digesting, you know, your podcast and the content and just your your Instagram all day looking at sports cards, which is, like, my feed and Christopher's feed, you just don't realize how how big it is.

So I think, you know, that's that's the way I would I would flip that. And, like, I'd love to see more people in tech understand the hobby better. How if you were assessing and I know just as much as you love the hobby, you love tech.

If you're assessing, like, at the at the national going around, I know you're having a lot of meetings looking at a lot of different offerings and new companies and products.

How would you evaluate kind of the current state of technology and the hobby from your lens? I mean, I think, well, it's at we're kind of, like, blessed.

I mean, in in this this maybe I don't want it to sound like, you know, bragging or arrogant, but, like, we are involved with a lot of key customers in the space building really cool things.

So that's cool. Like so I feel like technology is advancing.

I and I keep coming back to Haystack because I think they've done an incredible job of what they're doing with, their AI tools for card recognition and and being able to catalog. But I think it's it's just like Chris said, man.

It's the Wild West. It is, like, very early. We're really not seeing what I think are, you know, solving some of the bigger problems that you'll see at these shows or in cards and clogals.

I know, like, I know you had a a a a few, you know, a few thoughts in your in your notes about this.

Like, for example, like, for years, grading was, like, the big thing. Right? I feel like grading is one of those things where it's like no one's gonna be happy.

They're not happy if humans are doing it. They're not happy if AI is doing it. You know, there's you know, as long as the, you know, PSA and BGS, like, keep the standards relatively the same, like, everyone's happy.

But, like, how it gets graded, is almost like a technical problem that people don't want solved. So it's it's, like, those are the kind of things where it's like, yeah.

There there's these areas where people try to apply technology to to advance the hobby, and, like, I feel like it was, you know, not necessarily a a hit. It's more of a mess. But I think there's other things.

I think the collector's experience at these shows, I think, with their own collections, the community driven things, I think, are gonna be huge. I think there's a huge opportunity for that. There's not enough of that happening.

You know, everyone you know, if this was gaming and and, you know, everyone's off on Discord servers and they're and they're sitting at a computer, which makes it easier, but, like, how do you do that in a disconnected world of, like, sports collectibles?

I don't know. I think the other interesting place is at the hobby shop level. There's, you know, there's this resurgence of hobby shops. My son works well, Christopher does work at Continental Cards in Ashburn, plug out to those guys.

And, you know, there's you see, like, what happens when the new stores open and how engaging the the the the customers are, and they bring in their kids.

And, you know, you look at, like, you know, from point of sale systems all the way up to inventory management to what that experience would be like in managing the sheer size of what inventory is like.

And I don't know a lot of company card shops have been doing different cool things in that space, so maybe it's not a problem to be solved.

But I do think there's an opportunity to, like, use technology in that community and the in in sports.

In the sports world, it's fan engagement. Right? In cards and the hobby, like, it's collector engagement. Like, what is that going to look like, and how can you apply tech to it? And one last thought on that.

I also think there is a massive crossover that, like, Fanatics is trying to do with Fanatics Fest and things like, that related to the crossover between sports and sports collectibles, which is so weird to me that it's not bigger than it is because, like, there are no sports cards without sports.

And, you know, sports is kind of, starting to just kinda catch on on on how, collectibles impacts, their own business and the fan engagement, fan experience.

You're seeing it at some of the smaller league levels, but then, obviously, like, you know, being at the national and Giannis is on stage talking about the cards he collects with Ken Golden.

So you they're I mean, obviously, they're younger. Right? I mean, you have this, like, 20.

You have the the young guys, especially with the NBA coming in. They're in their eighteens, you know, 19 year old kids that have been collecting their their heroes since they were kids, and now their cards are coming out.

And so you kinda see this blend of athletes, and really kind of a surge of the athletes, at that age coming because they're used to the hobby that you just didn't see before.

So I think that crossover has is right for innovation and and some tech as well.

You just gave me, like, a a laundry list of future topics and ideas to dig into and go, like, several layers deeper. Sure. I I'm curious maybe as we're kinda heading towards the end of this chat, I'm curious.

I I was gonna ask you a question about why this might be the right time for hobby businesses to invest in technology, which I wanna get your commentary on that.

But more specifically, you talked about the, you know, the car the dual logo men sale, almost $13,000,000.

Right? The card ladder just updated their August 2024 number, $421,000,000 in online sales across all major platforms, which was an all time high by over a $100,000,000.

Great. It's nuts. Like, we're in a ripping, roaring bull market right now. How does that, do you think, influence or impact what you're doing on, the development and tech side?

Do you think because the industry and the market has ton of interest and a ton of excitement, businesses are might be more interested in innovating and working with companies like you, or do you feel like because it's so successful and the market is hot, companies maybe fall victim of, like, status quo syndrome, and there's, like, because we're doing things this way right now, we're good.

Like, what what are your observations maybe in this market?

Well, I think well, I think the big companies, like, the play like, that 421,000,000 that you mentioned right across all platforms, I mean, like, the keyword there is across platforms.

I mean, those companies are the ones. The eBay, you know, I don't know which companies are included in that list, but if it's eBay is the leader by eBay is, like, 300,000,000 of that.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, eBay then does that include breakers, like, whatnot in those in in those numbers too? Or is that I don't think live live selling that live selling is outside of that number, which is Right.

Even I mean, it's Yeah. Even high. So so so I think from a platform perspective in, like, the the marketplaces, like, that is those companies have millions and millions of dollars.

I mean, I think I heard, I saw an Instagram story about them talking about somebody giving their opinion on, you know, the four or five different companies, in the space.

And, you know, I there's the producers who like the upper decks and and, tops and finacs, and they're gonna invest in tech because they're building products.

The marketplaces are gonna continue, I think, to do a heavy investment in tech, to lower the burden on buyers and sellers and make it easier to shop and and enlist and those types of things. So I think that's right.

But I think, you know, the use of, you know, AI from a a data perspective is gonna be very important. The the amount of information that's being moved, and then the market analysis for them just to understand where the trends are.

Like, I know that for collectors, it's one thing. And I'd like what Chris was saying about, like, big, beautiful cards. Like, that's great for card ladder.

But there's, you know, for these large companies, like, the data around an industry that's, you know, showing 25% growth on their platforms in the hundreds of millions, like, there's no doubt they're gonna spend money.

I hope they, you know, they they look and say, who is the company to go to in the hobby? And that's infrared technology. You know, because we understand it, but I think that's where the money's going to to ultimately come from.

There's gonna be there'll be a lot of, like I think there's gonna be, some companies and start ups and some more, private equity investment, that gets pushed into the hobby just because they can't ignore it.

It's very hard to ignore those numbers. But I also think, you're gonna like, at the national this year, like, Walmart was there, right, for the first time.

They're trillion dollar company. Like, they're they're going to buy somebody, which everybody, you know, has been speculating about.

Like, they're going to they're going to, convert from, I think, like, a major retailer in the hobby to more of a a a force when it comes to all things, you know, whether it's retail and hobby or whatever.

I don't I don't know exactly what that'll look like, but they have to.

Right? They they don't you don't just show up at the national and buy a booth as you know? And it was tucked in the back, and it was crazy because of the way the national was set up this year with all the corporate.

The amount of corporate that was there too, like, just shows you, like, how much investment is coming in to the hobby from, like, you know, you know, billion dollar companies.

So we'll see. But I I think that that's that's an that's where you're gonna see that trend happen. And, you know, we just hope that we get a chance to build some of whatever it is they come up with.

That's awesome. Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the Walmart thing. I didn't hear enough conversation. When I was walking around and I saw it, I was like, which one does it look like the other?

Then I was just like, what are these guys up to? They're up to something for sure. Yeah. I mean, I don't understand. Like, if I was Walmart and I was picking a spot, like, it would have been, like, right next to eBay.

Like, it would have been, like, set us up next to eBay. Or in that, you know, that auction row where there's, like, Heritage and Golden and, you know, eBay, they're all kinda lined up there.

I mean, I suppose it I have no idea, like, how that happens for corporate, sponsors, but, they were tucked in the back.

But yeah. Yeah. We'll see. Like but that's where, you know and then eventually, I would imagine, like, Target's gonna get into the game. Right? They're, like, they're I'm just gonna sit back and, like, Walmart do it. But, yeah.

There's so you need I mean, you need to the thing about software engineering, it's like it's we we have a blend of, like, you know, high end services and, you know, premium services, and then we're working on some new new innovative things, Brett, coming out to make, time to market much more effective and efficient.

And so you're gonna see, like, as things change in the next, you know, twelve to eighteen months with software engineering in general, I think that the barrier to entry will be a little bit lower and the time to markets will be faster.

So maybe you don't need the, you know, the the PE billion dollar, you know, backing to to get an idea out and and really do something that's meaningful and impactful.

So we'll see how that goes too. But but I for for sure, these, you know, the the big retailers and the big producers are gonna are gonna dump money into innovation.

Alright. This has been fun. Before we wrap, Scott, I gotta ask, what's the biggest lesson you've learned by combining your kinda professional skill set with your passion for collecting?

The biggest lesson, well, I mean, one lesson I feel like is, getting the chance to do it with with my son, Christopher at Contenders Guy on Instagram. Doing it with him, is, like, life changing.

Right? I mean, I think, like, that's that in and of itself is is something that, I would have never predicted. None of my kids are in software engineering. They're not they're not gonna write code, like, neither one of them.

But to do something like that with Christopher and to really I think the other thing is, you know, being able to prove out the lesson that in our space, at least, has worked out this way.

And I'm sure a lot of different industries and businesses works.

And I think even Chris mentioned this too. Like, if you're passionate about the thing that you're doing I think the question was, like, you asked him was, like, you know, what is happiness for for this?

And, like, that's it. Like, for sure. Like, I started off engineering passionate about building software.

Like, I was obsessed. I am obsessed with tech, right, and feeling like I'm left behind. And then you cross over into something like collectibles, and you realize, like, I can't even explain why I'm addicted to it.

I don't know why. Like, I have some I have, like, cards everywhere. I like, you know, Steelers stuff. I got I got a a Byron Nelson autograph card, PSA 10 sitting here, like, just because I think it's cool.

And when you blend the passion for that and you and you're able to cross it over into what you do for a living, you know, that old cliche saying of, like, you know, if you do what you love, you've never worked a day in your life.

I mean, I feel like that's absolutely true when it comes to, what we do.

And the lesson I've learned is that if you can do those things in your business, if you can work with really great people, you surround yourself with really smart people, which is what we've done.

I mean, I said I didn't write code anymore. It's because our team is insane, and, like, I see what they do. And I'm like, oh my god. I could never do that even at my best day.

And then you cross it over with giving them interesting things and then provide a business and a company that supports them, and makes it a great place to work, then, you know, then it all of that comes true.

And, like, I hope that we get a chance to do this for a long time.

And and I think that, the hobby, like you said, as it's exploding, timing is everything. Right? Like, as it's exploding in value and tech is evolving, and we're sitting here with expertise in both.

And, like, oh my god. Like, how come, like, we're not doing more? Right? It's just like it's one of those things. It's like, and I get really, really excited about that.

And, like, that's when we end up hanging out talking about, you know, this stuff for an hour and a half in the booth at the National rather than, like, walking around and buying stuff.

But, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that's the lesson. Marry your passion, you know, passions together and and just keep doing that, and you'll you'll be successful.

You can't fail. Scott Lock, Inferno Red Technology. Man, this was a lot of fun. Looking forward to more of these down the road. Take care. Alright. Thanks, Brett.