alright we're back passion to profession shout out to ebay for putting on these conversations excited for today's chat it is not the football card podcast we are here on passionate profession but i'm joined by my cohost on the football card podcast and we are going to be talking about his background talking about a newer role he stepped into working in the sports card industry and everything in between i am joined by my good friend and cohost of the football card podcast john john welcome how are you man brett i'm good thank you for having me i'm passionate profession excited to kinda talk about the past the present the future when you hit record though i almost started my welcome to the football card podcast spiel so we'll see we'll see how this goes i want this to feel like passion and profession not football card yeah and it's the irony of it all is we're recording a conversation about business and not talking about football and today is the start of the nfl draft so we're gonna have to restrain ourselves a little bit be and luckily for us this is our second conversation of the week a little peek behind the curtains for the audience john and i already had a episode of the football card podcast in the can and it'll already be been delivered to you but we're gonna focus on john's career and what he's been up to and what he's doing now i think the reason why i wanted to have john on the show is it is fun to talk to other people who have built their career on the back of content and i think it's very interesting to dig into the professional background of someone who's done it in another industry and is bringing it over to cards so that'll be the substance of the conversation but maybe we'll start here and we'll get into like your current role all this stuff but throughout your career throughout your kind of interest in sports and in sports cards did you ever think that you would be in a space where you wake up every day you log on and you're like working for a company in the sports card industry was that part of the plan how did this how did this all take shape never part of the plan to be in the sports card industry no i mean growing up i was a avid sports fan card collector memorabilia fan autograph collector all of that like all of that was one thing but i think like if you ask me when i was young what i was gonna be i wanted to be like an actor or a screenwriter or be in the movie industry i thought i was going in that direction i if you ask me in high school or college i probably was like oh i'm gonna be a writer for saturday night live like that was kind of the the vision the trajectory for a long time it that didn't happen i now work in the sports card hobby but early on it was more of being in entertainment i'd say is where i thought i was going because i always loved creating content even from an early age and in early age that meant like i mean we had like a home video camera i would make sketches and like commercials like even in elementary school like very young and then drawing or writing articles like don't know just always like my both my parents are very creative people i was always a creative kid so i just thought and and at that point a career meant like being on tv you know that there wasn't like the internet wasn't really a sustainable or did didn't look i didn't look at the internet it's like oh that's where i can make money and make a living it was like oh you have to be on tv or radio or something like that so yeah early on just creating stuff so in some of the recent conversations i've you've referenced you've referenced tumblr which kind of brings me back to an early part of making stuff on the internet and it's wild man but i think about you know twenty ten era and i think about individuals that are building stuff on the internet and a lot of the time it's creating content based on a passion like i had an m p three blog and i know you are someone who has been always very interested in in building on the internet and it's kinda how you you started your career which is in the music industry maybe like i know you went to ball state which obviously ball state breeds people who work in media that's kind of what they do but like how did you end up in this space working in the music industry and not only working in the music industry but like building audiences and and building content online yeah so i graduated high school went to ball state because yes david letterman had just like put a bunch of money into the telecommunications department and like that just won me over because i was like oh i did video announcements in high school and this is the next step i'm going there and that'll be great when i was at allstate i started getting more into creative writing screenwriting and then acting i took some acting classes towards the end and like this again this vision of i was gonna write movies or write for saturday night live and when i graduated ball state i went to a acting intensive at northern illinois for like two months like you're with these like this class of like ten kids two acting teachers and you're kinda going through becoming an actor which was never for me like i quickly learned i'm like i don't like this i don't like i just didn't have it in me to be on the stage i get two in my head i like putting stuff on paper and having other people create it i like the writing side of it better but through that learned a lot it was great and one of the teachers was like you need to go to the second city in chicago the second city is kind of a precursor to serenade live i so i was like yeah that's i love chicago i was born in chicago i'm gonna go back to chicago i'll do second city for a couple years i'll be on serenade live in a couple more years that's that so i moved to chicago got a job at a temp agency like just the first job i could find and was taking classes at the second city within a few months it just wasn't panning out the way i had envisioned like the second city i realized like oh i'm not gonna just shoot through this thing and be on like i'm not even gonna touch a stage for three years it's kinda how like how it goes there like you have to put in hours and hours lots of work lots of classes lessons you know and rightfully so like there's no shortcuts to some of this like you have to put in the work and so that was kind of dawning on me that that wasn't gonna be as fast as i thought and i'm working at this temp agency job that i had no passion for but it also it's basically a customer service kinda job but during that job i also had plenty of free time to be on the internet and this is like two thousand thirteen ish like peak blog era i loved reading blogs and you know and that goes back to college like i graduated college in twenty twelve and all through college like reading music blogs i was a fan of that and so i had like my favorite music blogs and i would just read these articles and i'm like i could do this because this is also during like the list era like you know like fifty best frank ocean songs or you know whatever the list may be and i've reached out like i sent emails to all like my favorite websites and publications and i'm like hey i i have ideas i'd love to write for you and no responses just no response at all and because again they probably get hundreds of inbound requests like that so i started my own blog which i had done before in the past but me and my good friend jordan really like put our heads together and started a true like music blog where we were like writing reviews we were going to shows and writing concert reviews we were doing interviews with whoever would agree for to an interview with us and that was a ton of fun and built that up as kind of like yes a passion project and a lot of fun but in my mind i always knew this is gonna be like my resume too because then eventually i went back out to all these publications and i was instead of just telling them like hey here's an idea i was like hey here's what i'm already doing like here's just one link you can click and you can see hundreds of pieces of content i have some ideas for you here are some ideas and a music blog pigeons and planes that i was a huge fan of jacob the guy who created that he's still he's a great friend he replied and kinda gave me a shot at an article so i wrote one article for the website got a hundred dollars and i was like wow i can make money off of writing an article for a website how can i do five of these a day ten you know like how can i scale this so that that was kind of the transition from college into those that those first checks off of creating content do you remember what the first article you wrote for pigeons and planes was about oh yeah the ten best no limit album covers oh wow so was what was silk the up there oh of course mia x yeah just the the pen and pixel album cover era and i still have that a screenshot of that email that i sent where i was just like here's here's some of my work with like ten links here are some ideas with like just straight up bullet point ideas i just like got to the point and jacob was like thanks for reaching out how about ten best no limit album covers i was like done oh my goodness okay so you've said two things there that i think i wanna highlight because i think they're really important number one is not sitting back and waiting for the opportunity to come like you obviously in your story were very proactive in making things happen and i think oftentimes we are worried about someone saying no so we just don't do it but that's not the case with you kinda getting into this space like here are my favorite blogs i'm gonna figure out the people they've got an email i'm just gonna email them so you did that and then you also mentioned this idea of which i i've built my career on the back of this and i love to talk about this but you said like just do the work like it's the internet like create your digital trail create your resume you know we all have linkedins and we all have you know resumes that we can type up on word but like those have very little impact to being able to point someone to a website a podcast a youtube channel where it's like i've just been creating and building on this topic for you know two three years and you don't need to say for nothing but it it's it helps advances kinda your position like what do you do you think if you maybe weren't proactive in reaching out or didn't like do the work first you would have ended up kind of on this journey of you know working for different media businesses working in media roles and obviously ending up working in the sports art industry do you think it you would have ended up where you are without kind of doing those things no i don't think so i mean you have to especially if in content where like content is the thing that these brands are pushing like you have to be able to do it yourself you have to be able to do a lot like i learned photoshop i learned video editing like just had to add those tools because it's a competitive industry too a lot of people wanna work for a rolling stone or you know or pitchfork or whatever and how do you stand out from all the other people that are offering their services you have you have more services to offer yourself you have to just like arm yourself with a lot of that those tools to be able to compete so that i was just trying to stand out because at the same time it's like i knew the internet how big the internet was and how many people are reaching out to these blogs and it's instead of coming to them with ideas it's like if i can come to people with something to actually show that will help me stand out so that's all i was really thinking but now that i'm thinking about it it's like maybe if i hadn't done that and i had just been at the tech job taking second city classes that worked out and i would have been on live right now so maybe maybe i messed up my whole trajectory by having that extra ambition or whatever give giving your you're giving yourself options and i think that's what matters the most maybe before we i wanna jump into pigeons and planes and how it kinda catapulted you working for you know some of the biggest companies within the music industry but i have to ask this question first because as i'm like reflecting and getting nostalgic on like the m p three blog era i i i can't stop but thinking about hype machine and hype machine's impact were how were were you a hype machine fan how was hype machine viewed working for a big blog like pigeons and planes in the kinda m p three space during that period by the was a huge height machine fan like in college by the time i was really in it with pigeons and planes it was less of a important part but i know that there was an era where like getting a placement on hype machine was huge like because those early years at pigeons and planes like web traffic was everything like chartbeat like was like i would have that dash open all day and like getting a spike like people are on the site this is awesome it was it was a thrill so i feel like but by that time hype machine didn't have the same juice that it used to but because like by then like facebook got huge with like link sharing and reddit too had had blown up but no hype machine definitely was a a big part of that era we're we're for anyone who's super into music and remembers this period like you're gonna love this i promise you if you have no idea what we're talking about we're gonna we're gonna get to the point but just like the impact of the internet and digital content and it coming from the first time like speaking of hype machine i i vividly remember having one window of turntable dot f m open i have another window of hype machine open and i hit refresh and instantly the brand new m eighty three single midnight city which everybody knows everyone had heard hit hype machine for the first time and i remember ripping it and then getting a spot on turntable dot f m and like being i felt like i was the first person on the platform to play that song in front of the in a digital audience in front of everyone and the feeling it made me feel because i'm sitting there listening to the song for the first time broadcasting it to an entire audience of strangers and watching the room fill up like that was like the one moment where i realized like okay these djs and what they do and the the the adrenaline they have and the excitement that they have it was like the one time in my life where i'd actually felt like an artist and so shout out the internet and shout out m p three blogs and old platforms that don't exist anymore because of copyrights and such but yeah man that that era of the internet was the best the absolute best it when you had to work for your music you had to earn your music it wasn't just on an app on your phone constantly refreshing like i loved when so like early college like there was napster and limewire when i was like that was precollege but then they that really like cracked down they really made it hard to download music illegally for a while and me and my good friend jordan i feel like we were both like in a battle of who could build the biggest itunes library mhmm because that that was became like the core where you got your music because it was you you could torrent stuff in off of the internet but it just wasn't the same as building an itunes library through yes downloading stuff but i also used to go to like the public library you could check out ten cds at a time and i would just check out ten cds of any anything like i didn't i wanted everything in my itunes library i wanted to be able to have any song that anyone requested like at a party in college and so i really put a lot of pride into building up that library and put like hours into that so for it to now just be something that you don't even have to think about is it feels a little too easy to me i liked when you had to scour the blogs and be refreshing hype machine to get that song and then having that song first to be the first one to download like there is so much passion and pride that went into that whole process sometimes i wanna go back and we're gonna go back for a second and talk about pigeons and planes because you referenced the fact that you had to learn all of these skills while you were in that role at pigeons and planes maybe talk about you know i'm sure like you had a job description and you thought you were gonna do one thing but it probably ended up you doing a lot of different things to help grow and build the brand talk about those things and those like what what you got sharpened and what skills you inherited through that experience and then how it kinda catapulted you into bigger roles for some brands that everybody who's listening to this podcast will recognize yeah so it started with writing articles i i was just a freelance writer and it was like one article a month and then one every every two weeks and then one like i i started cranking up the output being able to pitch better ideas understanding what jacob and the blog was looking for and and what worked what people were clicking on what people were reading and reacting to but also at this time twitter was pretty much just still like a hundred and forty characters maybe a link i don't even know if they had images yet because like images wasn't a thing on twitter for a while like you used to have to link out to like twitpic or like you had your platform of choice that would host the imaging so this was still very early twitter and at the time pigeons and planes was just tweeting like a the headline to an article and the link like that's all they tweeted they didn't have an instagram and i was told jacob i'm like because at that time funny people were starting to emerge on twitter and like memes and stuff like that and i'm like let me build your like let's cook on twitter like here's a funny idea right like because jacob's very funny too we we're very aligned and we'd have conversations i'm like that should be like let's put that out there let's see what happens and like let me start an instagram and just start curating some vibes like let me just make a tumblr mood board for p and p you know something let's just put out content to get exposure for the brand in my mind it's like if you build this following on socials like that's your top of funnel it'll get people to the articles eventually so i started doing that and eventually like started growing those channels doing well and the money got better with pigeons and planes to where i quit the temp agency i'm still in chicago to freelance full time for pigeons and planes as kinda like their social manager and again this was like before a social manager was really a role that people would like it didn't exist like that wasn't like every company now has a social media team if that you know like but at the time it was still kind of a new concept but i think it was like fifteen hundred dollars a month that i quit my job for to get like and i then i got a second job stocking shoes at steve madden and it was tough times on on the financial front but i was like i'm full time working off of just like ideas from my head and just putting it onto the internet this is awesome yeah it was a a struggle there for a year two years but eventually then got a full time offer pigeons and planes at the time was owned by complex a big media company that in college like i had the magazine like it was a media is a media brand that i knew very well so like to get a job offer to work for pigeons and planes in the complex office in new york city i was like oh this is this is really happening i'm gonna i'm just gonna follow this and see what happens the you mentioned just trying things building out the social presence and i think this is really good feedback for everyone listening who is a collector building a brand online and working for a hobby business thinking about building reputation i think like a lot of people get this twisted about their social presence and offers and trying to point people and get people to do what they want it's like it's people show up like a a a cold call in a way where it's just like trying to shove something in your face down your throat they but they don't think about like the three or four things you could do in advance to finally get people into the funnel and eventually when you they build and earn your trust to you know accept that offer most people lead with the offer you did quite the opposite maybe like share some perspective just in the the what you've learned about just like working online working in social and what you learned from like kind of that experience building out a brand social presence and like the things to do like this is the thing these are the steps or these are the things that i've learned that can be effective and i'm trying to get you to maybe share some perspective and experience that people listening everyone listening has an instagram has a twitter has something but many people are just showing up without any plan or strategy outside of you know dms conversations everyone wants more followers but a lot of people don't necessarily know how to get there so like what can you share just based on your experience building out social brands online yeah i mean it all comes back to the intent of your account like i don't think everyone listening who has like a card instagram needs to be striving to like scale their account into this huge thing but yes if you are like interested in building a your brand on social media you just have to it can't always every post can't be asking the audience to do something like you have to be putting stuff out there that is in service of the follower like just put something informative or insightful or entertaining out there and it's like find your ratio of like here's three for them and then there's gonna be one that's asking them to do something for me like it can't all be hey click on this link like you can't do that it's just not gonna work people don't people don't wanna stop the scroll like mhmm and it's get like ten years ago was still wildly different than now now it's even more insane with how fast people are scrolling how hard it is to get people off of the app how the apps are designed to not wanna get people to go off of the app so like yeah if you're making a post that requires someone to click a link in bio sign up for a thing enter a like you're gonna lose ninety nine point nine percent of people doesn't matter how many followers you have like when you when it comes to asking them to do something for you it's so much harder so you've gotta like kinda build but at the same time it's all comes with i think building that trust and relationship with your audience like if you have a hundred followers that are willing to click the link that's better than ten thousand followers that are just like there for the fluffy stuff so it's like it's just a balance it's so like it is hard and it's not there's no perfect science because it changes every day like the algorithms and what works and by the time you figure out something that's working and you get in a good groove you just know something is going to change and it's gonna be totally different and you have to be able to adapt and try new things and put stuff out that doesn't work and you gotta take a lot of l's and then eventually hopefully something breaks through but yeah no perfect science to it but yeah i think creating stuff that provides value to the follower just just from following like i follow this account i know that i get x y and z then every once in a while they're gonna try and push the thing they're selling i wanna get into content for some of these big brands within the music industry that you work for you mentioned pigeons and planes was owned by complex you worked at complex and you parlayed that into a job opportunity with def jam maybe like how did this all take place and what was your roles within those businesses like were were they content related what were you doing so at pigeon once i was in new york in the complex office i was still growing socials at pigeons of plains but now this is like twenty sixteen and there was the pivot to video like if anyone who worked in media or if you were just online you'd there was just a giant pivot towards video where like all these digital media brands that like website clicks weren't viewed the same as like a video view video views became much more valuable so advertisers wanted ad placements and videos getting lots of views so we started like a pigeons and planes youtube and then complex had their youtube you know they're making like hot ones and sneaker shopping and like this whole thing is this brand is really focused on creating more video content so i kind of evolved from social media manager to like a content strategist where i was figuring out because we're putting a youtube video up every day pigeons and planes was and it's like what what's our video today and like what's our calendar look like are you like we can't do it on the fly every day we have to look ahead we have to you know build out our backlog of all this content so i kind of evolved into that but also during that era on the social front i was i was cooking making memes i was making some memes that were like going very viral that like artists were sharing i made like migos bad and boujee came out and i like made an edit of that song to like the grinch where like the the animated grinch where they're listening to the song and it gets like fifty thousand retweets and like migos are sharing it and i took a thing where how does that make you feel as a creator on the internet when someone like migos is sharing something that you just it seems completely silly but you you you you made it and you put it out there it was it was addicting going viral like then we wanted to go viral every single day so i was thinking and we did we went we had like some great album covers but with michael cera that's completely me and jacob where it started we just took like here's five rick ross pictures but with michael serra and like put michael serra in them and tweeted it and it just goes crazy like we kind of cracked this code of like just funny what people like yeah offbeat stuff and then it turned into just straight up here's good kid mad city but with michael sarah here's like whatever album and like nicki minaj reposted one we did of her gucci mane like everything we were putting out was like starting to really reach the like the artists like we had pigeons of plains by then had built like a big social following that we could kinda like move the needle with these artists i did one of my favorites is kanye had gotten like back on twitter in like twenty eighteen and was you know doing kanye things but i took a bunch of his tweets and i took a bunch of new yorker cartoons that existed and put like paired the right image with like a right kanye line so it they looked good and they like read well and i tweeted all those out and kanye screenshotted every single one and tweeted every single one himself the new yorker wrote an article about it like response to this kanye new yorker cartoons so like and and that was a great moment that like i also i would recommend if any i know work from home is awesome and all that but if anyone can ever if you have the opportunity to work in an office work in an office it is an amazing time like that era the complex bullpen is one of like my most fun professional memories like the energy of all the people in there and like i remember the like the day prince died devastating day but like when that news breaks in a bullpen of like a media company it's unlike any like what what are we do how are we reacting like there's a million things to do and like i don't know and when the kanye was tweeting all these things we made it was like oh my god kanye's posting pigeons and planes what's going on so was having a lot of success on the social front and that led to record labels starting to reach out to me because people knew i was behind a lot of it like i was i had my own twitter platform like i was i was out there i was in videos for pigeons and planes like i was tied to the brand and record labels started reaching out where they're like hey i have this artist and this song can you make a meme for me can you make something like so that started happening and the record labels were offering like real money that i had never like again i was still social media manager not a couple years removed from also stocking shoes that steve madden so like when i was hearing from record labels i was like oh this is very interesting and at the same time the editor in chief of complex noah callahan bever great friend mentor he was like the editor in chief of complex for like twelve years he had left and went to def jam to kinda build out this content team for def jam and so he had already left at this point when like the kanye stuff's happening but he also reached out about like hey would you you know wanna help create content for us or like ideate with our social team and all that so kinda was like on a retainer there and making memes for other labels so i left complex and full time just freelance kinda consultant for different record labels cranking out memes and advising def jam social team and stuff like that and then eventually after like a year of just fully freelance i got a def jam offered a full time job as like director of content so i joined there to just kind of help oversee like social editorial video everything that they were trying to build on a content front incredible the meme man building a career making silly memes to go viral we're gonna get into kind of the transition from music to cards but i wanna hit on like and i think this would be important to learn and i'm always fascinated by like what works in one industry and what could possibly translate but like i think about the music industry and the music business and i think about the promotion of individuals it is a sea of artists trying to get discovered be seen and it doesn't matter like you could have the best songs you could write the best songs you could have the most incredible voice but it doesn't matter if you don't have content or people behind you making sure that you get seen and get in front of your next fan maybe like what did you learn from the roles that you had in the music business in content and it's like it's impact on on kind of that culture and maybe how you think about that kind of in the new world you're in yeah i think it's it's tough because i feel like i saw so many artists met so many artists heard so many songs and i was like this is amazing this is gonna be a smash hit this has everything to be a smash hit and it doesn't work out and it's like why why not and i still i think a and rs and record labels are still trying to figure that out it's like there has to be this perfect confluence of like time and place all these things but i do think there is like a the the it factor does exist like there are there are people there are artists there are card collectors there are people that just like have an it factor that i'm not saying you have to or it's good or it's bad it's just like there is something of like on the card front we were talking kyle king of the cards like he's got it he's like i've never even met him but he seems like a very personable nice dude it shows up in his content it feels authentic and genuine it's like alright this guy's got it he's like what whatever he's trying to do it feels authentic to them on like the music front i feel like sometimes you see an artist and hear the music and you're like this doesn't line like this song doesn't feel like what you're doing or it feels like you're trying to make the song that you think i wanna hear versus just making the song that you wanna make and but then like it once you're in the industry you get into the whole mess of like well the record label also does know what works from a like a formula front and if your songs aren't performing they're gonna put the machine behind it but putting the machine behind it means taking maybe some creative control and hold back and forth but kinda got off where what was what were we asking about yeah just digging into just like content and its impact on like the music culture and i mean you i was asking about like what you see translate to the sports card industry and i think kinda the answer is one big thing is like just the connecting of the dots and having like the authenticity piece mhmm where you mentioned kyle and king of cards it's like we we've we've we've both you know probably seen all of his videos scrolling and i've never met kyle but i would imagine if i met kyle out in the show or on a street he would likely be the exact same guy as what's on the videos and oftentimes i think in sports cards we put our guard up right there are people making content and it just doesn't feel right or there's people online that we interact with and something feels off so i don't know i just i i just i'm just curious based on those years of experience you've had in the music industry like how you look at content in sports cards and like gaps areas of opportunities that sort of thing yeah i i think one thing too is like figure out your one thing that you can do really well like if for king of the cards it was negotiation videos just like lock in and figure out how to perfect that or if you're an artist or musician like i again i just think there is something it's so hard to define it but with like musicians where you could just when it was all cohesive and like it just felt right like again it's like this if factor thing don't know how to find it but like certain artists are i remember meeting juice world and i was like this kid's like it like this like he's making the music that he wants to make he's not like trying to do anything different like this is fully him like i i was like this kid gonna be a star and he he was great but yeah i i just think as much as as soon as you feel like you're trying to make something that you think people will like i don't think it works so that that's maybe the the takeaway as we move over into your transition and what you're doing and what you're up to in cards i was thinking about this because we never like talk about it and it's i don't think i'm not trying to shy away from it at all but we we on the podcast we never talk about like what you do professionally do you think do you think people listening who follow you and know what like who you are just through the football card podcast do do you think people know you work in the sports card industry or not i don't think so because it's relatively new so i joined psa at the end of last year as like a content strategist to help them build out content for like the marketplace side of psa like the vault side where you send your cards into the vault once your cards are in the vault you kinda have three options you can easily list them on ebay you can keep them safe and secure or you could be eligible for a psa partner offer which is where like third party buyers not psa third party buyers like card shops are are putting out requests for like i want mike trout cards and when your mike trout card goes into the vault and it matches up with what they're looking for your card could be eligible for an offer so psa is trying to build out that side of their business and that's what i joined at the end of last year but i i don't think i posted like publicly about it or anything so i don't know if my followers know the last thing i feel like i posted about was when i was at complex and i started on display which was like a show about collections and so yeah that's that's the update on the pat nicholson job so there we didn't cover your full like you know career history you've had some agencies and there were some spin off stuff but like there was this point where you made the decision to leave this life you built starting from you know writing an article that led to a career for pigeons and planes in the music business did why did you move into sports cards like in in this industry like obviously you're a collector people who are who don't listen to football card podcast who might be learn listening to you for the first time might know you from your new york times article where you got interviewed about your jay cutler twenty twelve finite purchase but yeah like what was it like i know obviously the more time you spend in this space the more your passion intensifies but like did you like did you think this was going to be possible like how did this actually take place yeah i mean like when music like at one point i would say music was my hobby music was ever like i was a music junkie i was searching every day for new songs like at pitches and planes we had like a submissions email where people would send stuff we'd get thousands a day and that was fun to just go through that and see what we can find like we found like awesome music in that and that again that was my hobby that's what i did when i wasn't working like i'd go home and i'd be listening to music looking for new music slowly sports cards overtook that like my my hobby changed covid happened and then post covid the hobby became my hobby that became my passion on the side so just in general i was always thinking like wow i did my best work in music content when music was my passion my side passion now that sports cards and collecting has become this true passion how cool would it be to make content about this kind of stuff so and then i'd look at the landscape and i'd always think like wow as a music fan there's a million blogs and places you can go to find different music and opinions and thoughts and whatever and on the card front there's still so little like it's getting better but there's just still not as much and i don't think it will ever be as big like music is such a different medium to consume than like collecting a card but i do think that cards and collecting there's so much room to grow on the content front and i really wanna help just build some cool video properties build some cool articles like what whatever it is whatever we need the i think about just it's fun that we have you know met met each other in life and have similar interests and both like to create and i think about your commentary on content and the music landscape and like you can every subgenre like i could go search like post rock music blogs right now and i could probably find a hundred post rock music blogs for just that subgenre and it it's infinite it it goes and it scales forever if you want to get exposed to a new genre or a new artist like it's very easy sports cards like being someone who's building a business in this space i very much feel probably more close to how you felt in the pigeons and planes days where it was underdeveloped and you're kind of getting it going for the first time i think content there's a lot of content there's way more content now in sports cards than when i started stacking slabs which has been fantastic but there's lit there's there's nowhere near what i think needs there needs to be based on the growth and the rate that this hobby is where it's accelerating and furthermore like there like there's not genre specific content at the level topics ideas like we're so focused around the flashy headlines because that's what's going to get eyeballs big sales you know controversy all of these things and i don't know my my brand is not that and i tried to go in the other direction a little bit because it feels like so many people are headed that way those are just my thoughts and evaluation on the current content lens landscape but like how do you view like especially now that you're working professionally in a content role in this space like how do you view the current landscape of content and the hobby and and you know what you'd like to see and maybe where you'd like to contribute over the next you know two to three to five years yeah well like on the music comparison front it's like music itself is like inherently so entertaining and and public and like this thing that you know put an artist is putting themselves out there and the crowd is taking in the energy and giving it back and you know it's like a religious experience live music and collecting cards is not like that is a very personal kind of private experience so when you try and inject like entertainment into this personal private experience this personal private hobby like what does that look like and to me currently that's breaking right like mhmm breaking is a concert it's the closest thing that hobby has to a concert you have entertainers on a stage they're performing and something's happening and and i think like the card negotiating content like those are kinda two not not nearly as much as like the the breaking but those are the hobby concerts and i just want think that there could be more i think we could figure out like what are other entertaining ways to not that we need it but i do think there's ways that like i don't know but then when i actually think about it i'm like does anyone like collection like what can we do with collections that would be like breaking or like how could you put on a concert with your collection can you would you want to would people wanna watch that would would people watch a like card battle where it's like two collectors go on stage head to head and it's like i play one card and i get a score by judges and then someone plays another and then we build out a ten card curation and we see who wins like a eight mile type you know card battle like maybe that maybe that's a thing so i i don't know as i look at it i just i'm so excited about it and i think there's so many ways to so many angles like you have the in person on the ground at shows like that's a whole thing like a a card show is a fun event that there could be so much content for or so many like there's so many ways to do a show and it's like how can we show all the different ways to do a show or like collecting at home searching on ebay like i don't know it's kinda there's there's endless avenues there's people who have collections for the past fifty years that like we've talked about on football card pod of like we're always just waiting for the day that someone walks into our room and asks to see a collection right like that's it's kinda like maybe the dream or like what we're always kinda in the back of our head doing this for and how do we give those people a platform to do that like there there is content that highlights collectors but i think i think there could be more i think there could be i there are collectors out there who probably don't wanna be on camera which is fair so it's like how do we find a way to showcase that collection in a way that is tasteful that they wanna do i don't know i'm i'm just so excited about the potential within this industry because it just still feels so like early it still feels so small compared to what it could be how how do you describe that that thought to someone on the outside that is looking in i think feedback i've gotten from this series and it's caused me to create other content properties to support this idea of working in the sports card industry and the fact that you can be a professional and work in sports cards you can start your own business and work in sports cards like how do you i i i had this moment last year at the national where i was working trade night for ebay and i just like you know i had some nerves before because i didn't know what to expect and i remember just like walking into this ballroom before like trade night officially kicked off and before the thing even kicked off just watching the activity the movement the excitement the deal making the content brands and i was just like holy shit man like this is the industry that i work in and it's so much fun but yet feels like it has so much room for potential room for infrastructure building room for technology room for systems room for really smart people who've done it in other industries to come in and apply what they've learned to sports cards like like how do you how do you have those con how do you like there's i could literally talk on this topic forever but like you're working in this space and like i'm sure you have conversations privately with other people who might be interested or working in this space or asking your feedback like how do you describe kind of the viewpoint that you have now that you're inside this space you know getting a paycheck working full time it's always hard to kinda i still feel like people don't fully get it or like it it's hard to see the scope of it until you go to these shows until you go to the national and or you're seeing the volume that psa is grading or like the the psa operation and like i don't wanna speak on it too much because it's not my place i'll i just will say everyone that works there is really smart and loves what they're doing and loves this hobby and is trying to do the best things for collectors it's just like the volume is crazy the amount of cards that are currently coming in and for submissions is truly insane and it will get better but the when i'm talking to people on the outside it's like explaining psa is one part of it because they'll be like alright you work in cards what what does that mean it's like well you know you get cards graded this is a company that grades cards that is also building like a marketplace for cards once they're graded and content and like everyone knows my background in content so it's kind of an easier transition to just be like i'm doing what i used to do for these brands at this brand so it's not that hard to explain what i'm doing but like when i'm trying to explain the industry i still don't think i can do a good job at explaining it until you like you until you walk through the national and you see like holy shit like there are so many people here there's so much energy here there's all different kinds of people there's all different kinds of brands it's not just like the smelly old dude sitting at a booth with like it's like no they're this is like there's real brands here there's the youth is here like but old people are here but like young adults are here everyone is here like the whole and i do think like the whole tcg explosion is good for the hobby too i know right it's creating issues on the grading front just with the scale but it's it's bringing so many new people into the hobby it's bringing women into the hobby it's bringing kids into the like there's overall it's it's very beneficial it's just gonna keep getting bigger too especially as all of this it's just gonna keep growing it's crazy you are a master at being able to take your passions and turn them into your profession you've done it a couple times now music now sports cards has anything for you specifically changed or shifted since you started working full time in sports cards i do think i look at my cards less i've not like i bet if i tracked it i'll i get the box out less which is sad i still look at it through cardladder on the my collection app shout out cardladder but all day i'm looking at cards and thinking about cards in some capacity now which is still so much fun and i anticipate it will always be fun and but on a personal front i think like when i'm off the clock it's nice to then like escape from like now that the hobby is the job i have to escape from that outside which is which is a good thing i like you know being able it's it used to be like i would finish work and i was like itching to check ebay or like you know think about my cards look about my cards but now that i scratch that itch all day i'm able to have a little more free time it feels like at home almost even though i'm still i don't know i still probably look at ebay just as much probably a a little more yeah it's it's in some for me at least it feels like cards twenty four seven and i have to kinda take a step back and you know get out look you are a father i am a father it is i'm i'm i often say this it's i'm very thankful that i have children and i have a wife because if i did not have a children and i did not have a wife i love this so much that i would be working around the clock and i would be collecting and deal making around the clock and at some point down the road i would just probably run out of gas so the balance is the family and i think we've had some chats about that in the past and i think i think it's something you can relate with as well oh a hundred percent yeah like even yeah i remember i used to stay up till like three am every night just cranking out content just ideas and oh this would be a great tweet this is funny let's do this and i still do have late nights i was up till one am the other day watching the lakers game yeah i just i had to and but no the the balance of being a father and a a husband with it all is it's great alright before i let you get out of here i want i wanna get your perspective we've talked a lot about content your career i'm excited for the audience to kinda get your professional background we've gotten your commentary on content in the industry i'm i'm curious like is there anything on the content front in the industry right now that you're that's like got your attention that you're like paying attention to that you think is is either good for the hobby or could be something that might grow into something bigger like just leave us with kind of one additional thought regarding kind of the content landscape in in the hobby right now i mean it's there's a lot of good stuff out there like i think there's as much as i'm just gonna like shout out a few creators i feel like that i've seen that are and which kyle came to cards card collector too i think ryan's background and career is so impressive and he just put it up like he's always again i've never really met him but he seems like he's always just been locked in on he's a collector this is what he's doing and he's collecting cards he's ripping cards oh now i'm gonna start a store and i'm gonna show everyone what it's like to start a shore start a store and then oh the store is too small i gotta get a bigger store like i don't know it's just like he's documented every step of the way it's felt so authentic it's just like even if he didn't get all the views i feel like his content wouldn't change at all and maybe that's kind of the you know being authentic the it factor all those things i was kinda touching on it's like yeah if there was no audience how would that change your music how would that change your content how would that change your collection i think about that a lot where like mhmm that that's maybe a good way to think about creating sometimes because i know it's it's always devastating when you put time into something and you put it out in the world and it doesn't get the response you think it should get but that'll happen rothcards i'm gonna shout out rothcards again like and i've never met these people but he's just like guy going to shows traveling high end cards like i mean he says what it is and it is what it is you know like i don't know i feel like he's on the flashier side of that and like that can rub people the wrong way but to me it's like i don't know like if everyone was exactly what i wanted them to be it wouldn't it wouldn't this world wouldn't be fun so like want to see the flashy guy trading high end like that is interesting to me that's entertaining to me let's go sports card investor i know people knock on him but as far as like a level of content production they're kinda killing it they basically have like a four camera sports center set where they're reporting on hobby news like that and they're doing collector collection profiles they're kinda doing these things that i see people are asking for in the hobby but it's just i think the brand sometimes rubs people the wrong way so that you know they're conflicted about that but to me i'm like when i search on youtube at night and they have videos like sixty minutes of deal making at the dallas card show i'm like that's sick like yes i can put that on the background and i'm just listening to negotiations for an hour that's it's like a podcast that's that's good content or like the marshall fogle collection or the nat turner collection i'm like these are deep dives with beautiful shots of the card cards and you're hearing stories like that that to me is great content i'd love to even more though it's like i i still want more all these people are putting out content but i want more characters like i don't wanna listen to the same album all the time the same artist all the time i i like all these artists but i think variety is always good so i do think the landscape's healthy and i think there's just room for more though there's the appetite is there people want content around this hobby so we gotta give it to them we sure will hear on the stacking slabs network it's all we do more content all the time john's a big piece of that john is doing big things at psa this was fun man thank you for sharing your professional background landscape maybe one more before i let you get out of here like what's your feedback anyone out there who's listening who wants to pursue a career in sports cards maybe leave their nine to five and either do something on their own or plug into one of these hobby businesses like what's your feedback i think just the advice for and even if you wanna do something beyond cards like creating content in another lane or whatever it is but just just do it like that that's always kinda been the phrase i come back to shout out nike but like just do the thing like don't let your ideas stay as ideas you know like i've said this before like you gotta kill your ideas and how do you kill an idea by making it real like do the thing like put it out there like i have too many ideas that state ideas that i'm like damn it i should've i should've just done the thing and what anytime i've just done the thing it kinda leads to the next thing and the next thing so life's too short do the thing and yeah don't don't let the ideas stay ideas you can follow matt pac nicholson on instagram john appreciate it man thanks brett