Alright. We are back.

Another episode of Passion of Profession brought to you by my good friends at eBay. Really excited for today's conversation. Today, I'm joined by Mike Phillips, who is the executive vice president of sales and marketing at Upper Deck.

We have been trading notes, having some conversations over the phone, and just overall, it feels like there's been a build up to this episode.

And I'm I'm really excited about it. I'm a big fan of just Upper Deck and what they've done over the years, and I have so many conversations with all of you.

And we often talk about Upper Deck products, and there'll probably be a lot of nuggets shared in this episode about upper deck, and we're gonna focus on Mike's career.

He he's been at my upper deck for twenty five years, which is a heck of a run.

But without further ado, Mike, welcome. How are you? Thanks, Brett. Doing great. Appreciate you having me, and, happy to be here for sure. Does it does it feel like twenty five years at Upper Deck?

Depends on the day. There are days when it seems a lot longer, but, thankfully, most of them, do not. It's, twenty five years is a is a long time, for sure, but it for the most part, it's pretty hard to believe it's been that long.

You you know, I guess they say when something goes by quickly, that's a, you know, that's a sign of it it being good, and I would agree with that.

It's been it's been quite a run, and I'm I'm proud to be here, and I'm proud to continue on.

We're gonna spend a lot of time talking about upper deck and even maybe a stop you had before upper deck that I think card collectors out there will enjoy the dialogue around. But let's start with maybe you and cards.

Like, what you've spent your a majority of your career in this industry. Maybe talk about where the passion for cards comes from. Like, do you have a first memory or something you collected out of the gates that got you hooked?

Yeah. I do. I I you know, first of all, I I have, believe it or not, I have been my whole working career since I graduated from college has been in this business, so I'm pretty fortunate to be able to say that.

And and quite honestly, at this point in my career, I can't see myself working in any in any other industry.

I'm a lifer. But I do I do have a very specific memory. When I was a kid, and we'll we'll without exactly dating myself, I'll say the late seventies.

That's enough. My mom used to come home from work every day, and I'd come home from school, and there'd be a pack of cards, you know, sitting on the kitchen table for me.

You're talking about the late seventies, and, you know, and and I I you know, school back then, you know, it was alright.

It was kind of a drag, but, that got me through the day. I couldn't wait to get home and open up a pack of cards. She used to get it from the drugstore next door from where she worked.

And that happened for for years and years. And, you know, so I often fast forward to now, I often credit my mom for, for sort of getting me into the career that I'm in today from, from way back when.

Do do you, I guess, in between getting those packs as a kid into getting your first job in the industry, would you were you an active collector throughout that? Did it go ebb ebb and flow a little bit?

Maybe talk about your, kinda history with collecting. Sure. Yeah. I did. I you know, I was, an avid collector through, I'd say, '83, you know, right around there, you know, for a good chunk of time after I was first introduced.

And then, you know, like a lot of collectors, you know, at some point, you discover girls and cars, and you get distracted in, you know, in your in your high school days, and and you have, you know, things that take you away from that.

And I and I and I, like most others, I fell into that. And then, so I'm there's a gap in my, in my collection in the mid eighties.

But then, then when I was about to go off to college, I was I still remember the summer before then, I was apprehensive, nervous, like a lot of people are about going to college, and I I, you know, I kinda immersed myself back into collecting.

So, I, like a lot of other people, have a lot of eighty seven Topps, Fleer, and Donner's, which, incidentally, did not put my kids through college, but, still have it and, still means a lot to me.

And, and then I did, unlike a lot of people, I did end up collecting throughout college, and never really stopped.

And, and did, as in the late eighties, you know, when things were really starting to pick up and the industry was really gaining steam, I started to do some shows here and there, and, to sort of supplement my my collecting.

And, and then before you know it, I was graduating college and going into the workforce, and my first job out of college was managing a hobby shop.

So, and then and then, and then after that, kinda collecting was kinda secondary to the business part. So you managed a hobby shop straight out of college, and then you started working for, brands. And Upper Deck wasn't the first stop.

I hit your LinkedIn profile as I was telling you before we hit record earlier today and saw you had a stop before Upper Deck, which based on where you worked and the time frame of that role, I think there'll probably be some interesting dialogue that collectors wanna hear.

But maybe share what that experience was and then how you ended up there. Sure. At an interesting route.

I you know, as I mentioned, I I worked for managed a hobby shop, which I eventually became a partner in. The owner brought me on as a partner, which was great experience, both good and bad, but good work experience in general.

Our our distributor at the time was, was looking for someone to come and sure to run the trading card part of their business.

And, called me up one day, asked me if I had interest, and I was at that point where I was ready to move on in the next challenge, went to work for the distributor, and really learned about the wholesale side of the business there.

Well, two years later, that distributorship was bought by Marvel Comics and Marvel Entertainment, which happened to own FLIR at the time.

So, you know, stuck around in the with the distributor for a little bit longer and then had the opportunity to transfer to FLIR, which had just become FLIR Skybox, at the time, just acquired Skybox.

And, the, the company was looking to create a a hobby distribution program. They hadn't had one before that.

They hadn't had a program that sort of coordinated all their hobby business, all the shops with distributors and everything. So I was called upon to transfer and do that, and, and sort of the rest is history.

That started my career at, at, at FLIR Skybox. I started in, primarily in sales, but I had a real strong background in product because I really loved opening product.

I knew product. I knew content from my previous jobs, and, that allowed me to eventually move into the role of, heading up our product development group for my, last few years while at Upper Deck.

So that would be not I'm sorry. At FLIR. That would be, you know, from around '97, '98 to, when I left in early two thousand.

Alright. Well, we're gonna pause you there because if people are listening in that career, that track and the timeline, dots are starting to connect in people's brains.

And you Flare Skybox '97, '98, '99, like, I mean, it's it's it's very cool, I think, just generally.

And it it feels almost like at at this point, those sets that were produced during this time have almost taken on a at that time, taken a life of their own. They're very mythical, highly collectible.

You look at auctions. Those cards are in demand. You've got set collectors. You've got, you know, internationally, like, products from that era specifically are some of the most valuable, highly coveted pieces in this entire industry.

So to sit here and talk with someone who is not only working at those companies that company, but then working on the product development side, I'm I'm guessing, like, you know, it's like open up a a can of worms just by asking you a few questions.

But maybe, like, share some perspective there, like like, any stories or things that you you wanna you think the audience would enjoy hearing.

It's just those I'm assuming you didn't realize at the time those cards were going to be as collectible as they are, you know, twenty five, thirty years later. But maybe share some perspective there from working on the Ground Floor.

Not only on the Ground Floor, but, like, creating ideas around what these cards would turn out to be. Yeah. For sure. One one thing you said, I can't emphasize enough.

You know? Look. When we were making the products, we were super proud of them. We had a very talented team there, and, we had a lot of ideas, and we had a lot of opportunity, to act on those ideas.

But in a million years, we wouldn't have dreamed that those products we were working on then would be as important in as they are in today's hobby.

It's it's it's astounding. It's definitely gratifying, and it's validating and, super proud to be a part of it. But I'd be lying if I said I knew that all that would happen.

You know, when I when I, when I came over, you know, FLIR was obviously, FLIR Skybox was a a behemoth, you know, massive company, part of Marvel, and, you know, licenses in all four sports, tons of entertainment licenses.

I mean, it was multiple products every week. But the one thing that I noticed was missing, as I opened up product from the competition, and there was quite a few manufacturers back then in addition to the ones we know today.

One thing that was missing, there was no real true, what I would call, hobby content in the FLIR Skybox product. It was really more geared towards mass market.

There weren't very many, difficult inserts, as as I'm sure you know. The early nineties was really what spawned all the the insert craze, and, I I felt like FLIR was a little slow and behind to adapt to that.

And, so when I came over, one of the things that I tried to emphasize and, you know, and try to bring about was more of a concentration on some real long range inserts, and also something that I really was fascinated by, and was really underrepresented on the FLIR side was the concept of a parallel set.

You know, TOPS had introduced some some really, really cool innovative things with, you know, gold cards and I think it was 92 Topps and and refractors and 93 finest.

And, you know, this was a different concept, and it really added to the whole concept of a base set, which was losing any sort of identity, you know, as inserts became such a big thing.

And, one thing that I really emphasized with our group was we need to we need to dig into this and figure out how we could do it and, you know, and do it do it better.

You know, there was always a thing in in product development at at any company, you know, you you feel kinda you know, you don't wanna copy.

You don't wanna mimic. You don't wanna but when something's popular, you wanna, you know, you wanna make sure you you have that available to your your collectors.

But my emphasis was how do we take what's being done and do it better, and, you know, and and take what's being done and and advance it?

And, and that, I think, was really what helped propel, some of our products to that next level starting in the mid nineties.

You started to see things. I mean, we were the first ones to ever do at FLIR, the numbered parallel. It really started with FLIR in circuit baseball in '96. The, the Ruby's parallels are one per box parallel in Skybox premium.

And then, obviously, those things graduated to legacies and essential credentials and things like that where we would try to get, you know, a lot more creative in how we create we we we took the parallel offset to the next level.

To me, that was really what started, you know, what you mentioned, has really propelled some of those products to the heights they're at today. Can't find them anymore. And, and back then, we just were trying to do something cool.

We had no idea it would become the phenomenon it is now. So you said you were observing, parallels, and knew this is something that you needed to implement. You didn't just wanna do it like everyone else. You wanted to do it better.

I would say you you did a good job on that, especially with the lineage and legacy of those cards. But for you in that time and you're trying to make this decision, and you're not the only one I would imagine.

You're working with groups of people, and they're probably pushback, and you're trying to navigate what's best for the collector and the end consumer.

Ultimately, like, what did you lay like, what did you land on that was better, because whatever you landed on actually seem to have traction based on the way those cards are collected today?

Well, I think the I think the serial numbering certainly helped, and then getting creative with the serial numbering and then doing things like the one of one masterpiece card in showcase.

The numbering, strategy in you know, we tried some things with numbering to specific, milestone years or essential credentials was numbering to the card number, which that holy admit, that was my concept.

I don't remember how or why I came up with that.

I don't know, I don't know what was behind that, but it was just different. And, it it was a a challenge for our production people to to figure out how to do that where you have, you know, every card is numbered to a different number.

But, just just doing something something different that people would talk about.

And, again, you know, for years and years after that, no one really thought twice about it. It wasn't anything that anyone looked at and said, you know, oh, this is gonna be something really big someday.

No no one, at least, you know, up until recently, really thought that. And then the other part about it was we wanted to make sure, you know, so we had you mentioned our our our product team was fantastic.

We were really lucky. And a lot of the people that worked on our products back then are still in the industry today, which tells you the dedication and the passion, involved in that.

But, also, excuse me, we we took a lot of pride in the design of these products, and and so much time and so much effort and so much collector feedback was put into what these cars look like.

Not only did they have to, you know, you know, ideally hold some collector value, they had to look good.

And, and our designers, you know, they're they just product after product hit it out of the park. And they're, you know, today they're legendary. I mean, you know, you hear about arena design all the time.

Jean MacLeod and her husband Earl, who worked back on most of those products back then, just created some of the most iconic designs that the the the industry's ever seen and stand the test of time, which is incredible when you think that those were twenty five, thirty years ago.

Those technologies still resonate and are still used today. The this I this is like, I could go so deep and wide in all of this, and may we we'll have to do a part two at some point.

But before we move off of this topic and get into upper deck, I wanna we were talking before this, and I made mention that how much I, enjoyed Flare Brilliance and how I often call it, like, my favorite one and done set of all time.

And in the process of preparing for this, I got on upper deck side and saw the brand and entertainment cards that it was living on today.

And then as we were having a dialogue, I mentioned how I don't think it took over necessarily in basketball like it had in football, basically, because I don't Jordan wasn't in the set, and Jordan drives so much.

And you were getting ready to talk about something, but I was like, let's hold it and share it in this conversation because I know the collectors out there that are listening would would love to hear any story you have.

But maybe open up about Flare Brilliance. Anything you wanna share there? Yeah. I mean, I was, you know, we were getting into the late nineties, and we were trying to come up with some some new things.

Again, trying to to to bring collectors something new and different. And, Brilliance, was one of those brands. You know, bright and shiny was just starting to become a thing.

You know, now it drives most things. But, you know, the idea of of printing on that, that type of holofoil, I guess styrene, I believe it's called, was was a difficult proposition, but it was something we wanted to try.

Scratches very easily. Obviously, I'm sure you know that as a fan of the brand.

But we wanted to try that, and we were able to, you know, get it done in a couple sports. You mentioned football and in basketball. The basketball at that time, and I'm sure you get tons of questions about why this is.

If you go back and look, you know, Michael Jordan, over the course of his career, retired a couple times. And, you know, it was right around that time where we were in in the middle of one of those, retirement phases.

And, you know, when you when you retire, you're no longer part of the Players Association, which gives you all the group rights to to players as part of your license.

And, you know but Upper Deck was over here as our competitor, and, they had Michael Jordan as their spokesman, and they could do all kinds of Michael Jordan content.

And, you know, everyone else was kinda left, without being able to do it. And and I forget what what the parameters and everything were, but there was there was an agreement back then at the time where okay.

And and I and I believe this, you know, upper deck and and the NBA and the PA were involved in this, and they said, okay. You can use Michael Jordan, but only in this way.

And it was, like, very specific, and it was only, you know, couldn't be number to this or couldn't be the and it was and I and I if I remember correctly, part of that was, only being in inserts.

I could be wrong on that, but, and, but but, you know, there were there was very specific rules about where and how, MJ could be used. And it was very restrictive, and it made it difficult.

So when you see some products, particularly in '99, where they're you wonder, why isn't Jordan in that? Like, why was Jordan left out of that insert set, or not in that base set? Those are the reasons why.

It wasn't because FLIR, whoever was doing the checklist was, you know, you know, not not a 100% that day. It was there were very specific rules about our ability to use MJ when, when that retirement phase was going on.

Yeah. I'm sure that translated into a lot of, kids growing up who are my age with their hearts broken when we wanted to play NBA Jam, and we wanted to play as Michael Jordan.

And that wasn't possible. So, I guess that's what happens with your, you know, one of the most coveted collectible athletes of all time.

You mentioned competitor upper deck. Obviously, you work at upper deck, and you've worked there for quite some time. Let's talk about where that opportunity started.

I know probably at that time, the industry was a lot smaller than it is today, and probably you knew everybody. But was it connections? How did you end up on the other team? Yeah. So, you know, I man, I loved my time at Flir Skybox.

I met some amazing people, worked on some amazing products. And, honestly, Brett, I I mean, it was a dream job. It really was literally a dream job. I was, you know, I was given the opportunity to oversee making card product.

I mean, who wouldn't who wouldn't dream of that? But, through a variety of things, there were some ownership change, and some directional change, happening at the company around that time.

And, you know, I thought, alright. You know, maybe this is time for me, you know, to look at, you know, the next phase.

And then the other the other part of it was, you know and and this still remains true. I think one of the great things about this industry and the and the manufacturers that exist in it is the competitiveness.

And the competitiveness really drives, a lot of the innovation and, that you see over the course of all these years we've discussed.

And, you know, as good as it was what we put out of FLIR, we were always, like, frustrated at, you know, upper deck. They had Michael Jordan, and they could do all this stuff with Michael Jordan.

And they were just you know, we were starting to get into the introduction of impact autographs and, you know, and these big deals and all these big name, you know, athletes were all going and doing these exclusives of upper deck, and, it it got frustrating.

So I was like, alright.

You know, I gotta see what this is all about. And and, yeah, and you you mentioned, having some connections and, you know, had some really great, friends that worked at a lot of the different manufacturers, including Upper Deck.

And long story short, had the opportunity to go discuss the idea of coming over there and, worked out in, was in February.

Yeah. And I came on as the, West Coast hobby sales manager, and I did that job from the East Coast, believe it or not.

Those are some interesting hours. What was it like moving going from product development role into a sales role? So often, we transition in careers, and we move jobs, and people feel like they have to stay in one lane.

Obviously, you moved over into a different lane, but I would imagine you're just experienced in knowing the product intimately and what collectors want probably helped you a lot out as you were trying to navigate a new train and a new role at a new company.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, in any in any field, it always helps to be able to talk the talk and and and, you know, and do it with confidence.

And, certainly, sales is about confidence, and, you know, I I I felt like I had, the necessary confidence to do that.

I also, you know, when I came over to FLIR, you know, we in in creating that that hobby distribution program, we were dealing with with all of the major distribution partners, that existed at the time.

And while that changed over that that those five years I was at FLIR, you know, coming over and working with distribution partners at Upper Deck, I had already known those guys really well, both from working, with them back then on the distribution program and getting their feedback, on on products and discussing products with them over the years.

So it's very seamless to be able to to come over to Alberdock and, and then, and then and then talk to them about our products, which is essentially what I was doing in selling them to them.

And and, you know, it's funny. Even when I came over, we were so competitive at the time, the manufacturers.

When I came over to Upper Deck, there was still some apprehension from some of the people who didn't know me. Like, is this guy a spy? Yeah. How do we know this is you know? But, you know, sure enough, that that ended, pretty quickly.

And I and and when I came over, part of, the deal when I came over to upper deck was, yes, my primary responsibility was gonna be sales, but I would also spend quite a bit of time with the product group, and working to help develop products and brainstorm concepts as well.

So I was able to keep my foot in the door with regard to product.

I actually even, had a brand that I managed while at Upper Deck and still working in a sales role for a period of time. So it was it was a very easy transition, from FLIR to Upper Deck.

So you landed at Upper Deck in February, which, again, for all the collectors out there, they're connecting the dots is three years before Exquisite was, shared with the collecting universe.

And there's been in your twenty five years, I'm sure there's been so many different product releases, athletes, you know, things that have happened on your ride at upper deck.

I'd love for you to maybe share, like, what what are some of those key and pivotal moments that when you look back on your twenty five year career, like, whether it's product, whether it's athletes, just key moments that that you think about?

Yeah.

It was I came over at a fortunate time. You know, I you remember I I mentioned, the frustration of always watching upper deck sign these marquee athletes. Well, there wasn't a bigger or more marquee athlete at the time than Tiger Woods.

And and I came over, and as I was interviewing, I kinda got an inkling of what was going on. And, you know, and then sure enough, soon after, we we signed Tiger.

And, and then we were working on and putting out, you know, the landmark 2,001 upper deck golf, which, you know, you talk about a time to be a salesperson coming over to a new company.

I mean, what what what I mean, what kind what what better product than that? And, yeah, it was it was pretty cool to be able to come over then.

And then, of course, you had, at the same time, just a a historic baseball year with Ichiro and Albert Pujols. And, so for me, I was coming over and and selling product that was, you know, hate to say it, but kinda selling itself.

And, it was it was a real fun time to get sort of indoctrinated into the upper deck culture and, and and be able to work on those things.

And then, you know, yeah, we we, the the the whole evolution of of things like ultimate collection, when I first started and exquisite, you know, I I I did really, I I wanted you know, I'm I'm the new guy coming in, and I didn't wanna, you know, you know, I wanted to I I knew my spot, and I I didn't wanna, you know, push things too hard.

But one thing I did really push the team on was this. I just saw this opportunity, where the industry was heading with regard to price points.

And, you know, all the companies were kinda apprehensive about going to these places that no one had ever gone before. And and even back at FLIR, we went with EX.

It was two two cards for $4, which at the time was like heresy. And, and even showcase at $5 was was crazy. And I saw I saw this this opportunity to try something, at an unheard of price point.

And, you know, the team worked to build a product at a $100 a pack, which was like there were people freaking out in the hallways at Upper Deck that this was, like, the craziest, you know, ridiculous idea ever.

But we had to try it. And, and that really led to giving us confidence to go to an even higher price point with Exquisite.

Truth be told, I wanted to go higher than that. I really wanted I I wanted to go to a thousand dollars a pack at the time, and maybe it was it was too soon for that.

We were I think we were at 500, when we first started, but, there were just it it felt like, you know, the sky was the limit at that time.

And we had we had the perfect storm with LeBron and Dwyane Wade and that just historic draft to try something really just just kinda never been done before, nothing even close.

And, and, you know, great product. The content was obviously historic, and, it just was built perfectly.

And, we hit a perfect storm there. And, you know, so that that was really a time that that that sort of set the standard for that new price point and enabled us to open up and try different things.

You know, we did the cup and hockey, and, it gave us a lot more confidence to build future brands that were, you know, where price points weren't necessarily, an issue pushing the boundaries as long as the content, equaled the price point.

So those were those were those were probably the earliest. I mean, I can give you a whole bunch more, but I know we're limited on time. But those were certainly the earliest that I can remember.

Help us understand as collectors with someone who is working inside a business like Upper Deck. You mentioned Tiger Woods, which, I mean, you probably got to work, and the Woods relationship was starting starting to market that.

And you're like, man, this is this is probably the best decision I ever made. Probably couldn't keep enough in stocks. You've got Woods. You mentioned Ichiro and Pujols.

You mentioned LeBron and Exquisite. Like, help us understand, like, I think we all realize, like, the hobby runs on prospects. The hobby, wants this this, element that they can buy something, and there's so much more potential.

How much how important is that when you're releasing new products and new sets that there is a not only a prospect, but a generational type prospect or someone that us collectors can believe that we wanna uphold the piece piece of not, like, five years from now, but, like, right now.

I mean, it it it it you know, rookies drive the business.

Certainly no secret there. The the, you know, and and while people remember, you know, the LeBrons and the Connor McDavids of the world, you know, There are also quite a few that just don't make it for whatever reason.

So it is, you know, it it is an inexact science for sure. But, you know, when you're when it's a it's a it's a it's a process to try to identify, who you really wanna dedicate a lot of resources toward.

And you and you wanna be while you can never be sure, you wanna be as sure as you can be and do your research. You know, LeBron was, you know I mean, he's got all kinds of nicknames, and they all, are true.

Right? Like, the chosen one, the king. You know, he that that started an early age, and, we knew back then, that he he needed to be part of the upper deck family of spokespeople.

He fit in there. We we always had the, you know, the the top of the mountain, you know, to whatever sport we were in, whether it be, you know, obviously, MJ. And then you need that that next one.

And we had Wayne Gretzky. Well, who was the next one at the time? You know, you had to you had to get Sid. And, and then, you know, after Sid, well, who's gonna alright. Connor McDavid. You know? So we're always kinda looking for that.

And, you know, and and, yeah, there are some that we we certainly missed on, but we wanted to be able to have that relationship where, that player was associated with our brand, and we could feature them on packaging.

And and the other thing that can never be discounted in what gave Upper Deck and continues in in many ways to give us a a a strategic advantage is the fact that we have a division of our company called Upper Deck Authenticated, which does authenticated memorabilia and has been doing so for, you know, thirty five years.

And, and it gives us that ability to go to some athletes, and certainly back at the time, you know, with with an opportunity and an offer that was very difficult for others to compete with. And, you know, and it was a one stop shop.

It and they at the you know, we had established a worldwide brand at that time that that guys wanted to be a part of, and, it really helped us ultimately build better card product to have them in there.

What's it like when you, sign a new athlete? And, like, is it inevitable that based on you your role at upper deck, like, you instantly are becoming a fan and you're following them maybe at a different level that you thought before?

Like, that I I, like, never thought about that. But as you were talking about it, I'm like, man, that that must be fun.

Like, that must be fun to not only write, sell, and market hobby boxes that they're on, but then you when you're, like, at home and you're flipping through the stations and they're they're playing, like, you probably have a new vested interest that you might not have had before.

Absolutely. Yeah. No doubt. And, and I'm a Brent, I'm a diehard sports fan, and I, I'm a diehard Philadelphia sports fan. So, like, I have I have very strong allegiances to my team.

So sometimes those allegiances get challenged by my, the decisions that are made at my work. And, I have to, you know, of course, you know, business comes first, and I put that aside.

But at the at the end of the day, yes. To answer your question, you really do. And, you you definitely have to become more of a fan. You gotta do your homework. You gotta, really learn about those players.

And what's interesting is, especially now, for us, particularly now in hockey, you know, we're we're researching these prospects, earlier than ever and really getting to know their game and watching them in in juniors and, you know, and then their progression throughout, you know, other levels of hockey and or international.

And, yeah. So you become you become, fans of of players that you never thought you might be, and then you could even take that out into other sports.

You know, I've I've become, over the last two years, you know, a much bigger fan of women's soccer.

We just signed Alex Morgan. I was gonna ask about the decision Yeah. And Alex Morgan. I mean, she's a she is, an icon in the world, you know, not only just, you know, in in in women's sports, certainly soccer, but in sports as a whole.

And, just a tremendous person and, obviously, a tremendous player, and we're fortunate to have her as part of our team. But I I'll wholly admit, I I didn't know a whole lot about, women's soccer.

I watched, you know, World Cup Olympics here and there, but now I'm I'm fully vested. And, you know, I could I can often tell you, you know, San Diego wave got shut out by Gotham the other night, and I was upset.

So, yeah, I I mean, I know I I I do, I do enjoy having to learn about some things that I may not have, known so much about before. It's definitely a side benefit for sure.

One one thing that I've picked up on you is, like, you're very mindful of, like, the collector and what the collector wants and not just creating products to sell products, but creating products that, you know, withstand the test of time.

Like, you're working with a lot of different people at Upper Deck probably over the years.

Like, how do you think about the creation of a new product in in the terms of, like, this is actually something that not only collectors are gonna want, but has the chance to kinda withstand the test of time.

Like, how do you think about that? Well, you know, I in in my role of you know, my current role, I'm not as involved with the product group as I used to be, not even close.

But that group is in good hands. You know, the our VP of product development is, like myself, is a lifelong student of the industry, been in it forever. I've known him forever.

And he and that team just do a tremendous job, of constantly, you know, you know, taking our brands, which we've done a lot of work to establish, and we try to keep as consistent as possible and pepper in some new ones here and there, but keeping them fresh every year and coming up with new things to try.

But, you know, like we started this conversation, I think it's and it's and it's not easy to do this.

But, you know, when you when you have new concepts that you try, if they're not popular on the day of release, that doesn't necessarily mean you should give up on them.

And you really have to stay confident. If you believe in a concept, you have to stick with it and give it some time. And look, after x amount of years, you know, is it time to cut bait? Yeah. Maybe.

But, you know, I think one thing that I know I and many of the others on our team have learned is that, you know, just because collectors aren't necessarily gravitating towards something today, doesn't mean that in a year or two, they won't look back.

Because, as you know, collectors often one of the great things about this industry is going back and looking at stuff that you put in a box three years ago and and checking it out again and taking it out every now and then.

Oh my god. That card's a couple $100 card now. I was I threw it in the in a in a, you know, in a monster box and put it on a shelf.

So, like, you just you just don't know. So you gotta stay confident, and and and have faith and, and continue to promote and enhance and, and these concepts and and give them a chance to grow.

And I think that that is the and then the other part of that is, you know, in speaking specifically about Upper Deck, our team I I just I'm so proud to be a part of the team that I get to work with every day.

I mean, yes. You know my background. I'm a collector at heart. I've spent my whole working life in this industry. I mentioned the head of our product development group.

He used to he used to run pricing at Beckett, you know, back in the day. I mean, he's a walking encyclopedia. And and then the president of our company, is a lifelong collector, former hobby shop owner.

And so when we're working together, we're in a meeting talking about products, the collective knowledge and history in that room is unprecedented. And we we know each other well.

We respect each other, and we are we have thick skin. We take criticism. We throw stuff around. And I I so much look forward to those brainstorming sessions where we talk about product. And think about that.

The president of the company is in those meetings. So, ultimately, when you have the top decision maker, being involved in those meetings, it's pretty powerful stuff. And, and I put his content knowledge up against anybody.

So to have somebody like that being at the helm of our company, it it it's, it gives you a lot of confidence, and it certainly, you know, makes for a really great working environment as somebody who's been doing this a long time.

That's amazing. I got a couple more on my mind before I let you get out of here.

I'm curious. Twenty five years, a lot has changed, but a lot has also stayed the same. I know there's, like, many different ways to, take on the hobby now from a collecting perspective. There's just different avenues you can pursue.

Maybe although it might see it seems a lot different than it did twenty five years ago, Has it changed, like, in in terms of, like, the individuals who you're going after and trying to get new product in front of?

Maybe talk about that dynamic with just, like, the change in collector behavior, and what people are doing? Yeah. You know, look. It's still predominantly a two and a half inch by three and a half inch piece of cardboard.

Right? So there's only so much you could do with it, and I'm amazed that what manufacturers have been able to do with it, to keep people engaged.

It's it's unbelievable. I I I often love to tell, the same story, you know, to people, you know, when when it wasn't that long ago that if I was with friends or meeting new people and they'd say, oh, what do you do for a living?

I I I work in the trading card industry. And they're like, is that still a thing? I didn't even realize that was still a thing.

Well, I don't hear that anymore. I don't ever hear that anymore because everybody knows that trading cards are a thing, and they're mainstream now, and everyone knows that they exist. So I'm really happy to not hear that anymore.

But it the reason I bring it up is, you know, not that long ago, general consensus was that this was an industry. It's a piece of cardboard. It's printed matter. A lot of printed things, unfortunately, are going away.

And, the fact that it's been able to adapt and and thrive, is really something special, and it's I think it's a testament to what's been done to keep not only the product itself, but the ways in which people transact the product, collect the product, and consume the product.

So I think from that standpoint, things have changed quite a bit.

From you know, when I was collecting, I I I had to I used a Beckett magazine. And and, thankfully, it still exists, but it's you know, there are, you know, a million different ways to organize your collection to transact cards.

I think the biggest thing, that has changed besides the obvious with regard to technology is, is the expectation from the consumer.

And when I say the expectation, there's a there's a couple different things of of what you receive, because, look, you're paying a lot more money than you used to back then.

So, like anything else, you're paying more money. Your expectation is you're gonna get more.

But what's difficult and what the the one of the bigger challenges is, in today's industry, in today's hobby, there are multiple levels of people in what I would call the chain that expect to make money.

And that what other industry do we have that? I mean, if you think about it. Right? Like, you you you know, you sell a product, somebody, you know, the the let's go through the traditional chain.

The distributor needs to make money, then the shop needs to make money, and then the collector wants to make money. So, you know, as a manufacturer, the costs aren't going down to make cards by any means.

They're going quite the opposite. So that that, that is a challenge, and that's probably the biggest difference I see, from back then to now is the, the level of expectation and the and the the expectation to profit.

That's a that's a really difficult thing, to sustain. So that'll be interesting to see how that progresses going forward.

A lot to think about. My wheels are certainly spinning. Last one Mhmm. Before I let you go, you've been doing this your entire career, in a lot of different spaces, upper deck being the longest.

What motivates you and what gets you excited to wake up, get out of bed every day, and pursue a path in this industry?

That's a big one, to end on. I you know, listen. I'm I there not a day goes by where I don't I'm not thankful that I landed in the industry.

I I get to do something I love every day. And I have far too many friends who go to work every day and it's a grind, and they can't wait to get home and be done and dread the next day.

And and, you know, I I understand that. I I understand that I'm lucky to be to do something I love. And and, again, I don't take it for granted.

So I get to work in an industry I love. I get to work for a company and a brand that I'm super proud of. And I think that's another, you know, another really important aspect of what gets me going every day.

You know, you gotta really believe in what you do. And and I truly believe that, you know, our brand stands for something. It's long before I started here, it was built into a worldwide brand.

And, you know, I could be walking down the streets of, you know, of Shanghai, and I'll be wearing an Upper Deck logo on my shirt, and people will stop you and say Upper Deck.

And, you know, that was set forth, again, long before I started the company, but I've certainly been proud to keep that on.

And, you know, our brands, both the Upper Deck brand and the brands under it, are everything we have at Upper Deck.

And and being able to help, you know, do my part to build those brands, protect those brands, which is super important, in my day to day responsibility, and making sure that our brands are treated the way that we want them to be treated.

And collectors, look forward to purchasing them the way we intend them to be, and and hope that they receive them and enjoy them, that's what drives me every day.

And and I tell you what, I I'm still, I'm still impacted by coming back to the hotel, every night at the National and looking around the lobby of the hotel.

And after those after going to dinner, you know, and just seeing the amount of people, mostly young people, really young people, just trading, transacting in that lobby, it just I mean, it's super exciting.

It gives me so much hope for future generations of collectors. It teaches younger people, invaluable lessons about business and life and interacting.

And, so all of those things, and I'm sure there's there's tons more. But, I know I'm I feel very fortunate to be able to do this for the company that I do and, look forward to doing it for a long time.

And, you know, this industry has thrown so many curveballs. You know, not all great, but most of them really great. And the ones that weren't great, they build character and make you adapt.

And, I just, I look forward to seeing where this thing goes. I never in a million years and I and anybody in this industry who tells you they saw this coming is lying. This last several years has been a gift.

And, you know, now it's up to the people that are involved in this industry to make sure we take care of it and move it forward and progress in a good way and and make sure that this industry stands withstands the test of time for many, many years to come.

And I'm I'm just looking forward to being a part of it. Such an awesome conversation.

Mike Phillips from Upper Deck. Mike, we'll have to do this again. There's there was a lot more I wanted to dig into, but, you know, only so much time. Thanks so much. My pleasure. Absolutely. My pleasure. Anytime.