Card Ladder Confidential coming back.

We'll gas up today's guests. Hey, Chris and Josh. Some people slide to my DMs after they drop. We drop these every month, and they say, you know what? This is my favorite thing that gets put out on stacking slabs, all month.

So this is like I'm just trying to gas you guys up because you guys are making some people's favorite show. But now I'm gonna hit you with the left hook, and that's the cold open question.

So here is the cold open question. Fandom is tied to collecting inevitably. When a player you collect is in a special moment, you're are you more inclined to buy their cards even though it's likely against conventional collector wisdom?

Or are you kinda just let's let the market and everything play out, and I'll just sit on the sideline? I think about, Josh, your LeBron collecting, and the 10 finals appearances.

There's been a lot of moments of excitement in his historic career. Chris, I think about Luca's run to the finals last year and just your mindset and mentality on the desire to pick up Luca cards during that time and in that moment.

But, yeah, I'm just curious. Like, during these moments that we aspire our favorite athletes and the people we collect at those mountain top moments, what do you do?

Josh, since the two players I called out yours is longer tenured and more accomplished, I'll just default to that and go to you, first. Yeah. We're probably gonna have different answers on this one, so that's good.

I like to buy the guys in the off season, maybe, like, a year after their championship or whatever and give it a little bit of break, but I've definitely fallen prey to the you know, this guy just had a big game.

Let me get on eBay and buy something. So we all we all fall into that trap, and I think that's totally normal and and makes it more fun.

But I do prefer, like, right now is when I'm buying the most football in the off season, just because, like, there's less people talking about it.

I enjoy kinda going zagging on it a little bit. So, like, both sides are perfectly reasonable.

On the football side, do do you have to or do you feel, any forces or impact of those dealer folks who are trying to load up on football stuff now so that they can have it while they're at the national, or is the stuff you're collecting kind of in a different category and you're not feeling that same force?

I felt it a little bit, but not much because I don't collect quarterbacks. It's, like, 90%. What you're describing is, like, 90% geared towards quarterbacks, maybe more.

It's very focused on quarterbacks. Chris, what about you? Yeah. I mean, it's I like to, shout out a different, podcast on the stacking slabs network, the staging area.

I listened to episode one last night, and there was a a a, like, a five minute blurb of insights about this topic, about how, from their point of view, is a consignment outfit and one of the biggest sellers on eBay and of sports cards in general that, there's there's pretty clear trend of, like, for example, when a team is is hot in the finals that, cards are are at or near their seasonal high and that they've observed plenty of times that, they they even advise customers, hey.

This isn't a bad time to sell.

You can almost always get this card back in the off season once all the attention in the eyes aren't thinking about the NBA finals anymore. So I think there's a there's a very prudent case to be made, for patients.

But the the time that I'll sort of excuse myself and permit myself to go pursue a card is if I think that the only conditions under which it will be made available are these in this moment.

Like, the sellers looking to capitalize on the moments.

Otherwise, it's going back into their safe or something like that. And so if I can convince myself that that's what's going on, then, you know, I I give myself kind of more leash to go and try and pursue a card like that.

And it doesn't always work. Sometimes it works the opposite way, where, you know, suddenly you're excited to go get this car that you know exists somewhere and but now they're really excited too, so they don't wanna sell it right now.

And then I have to have the discipline to wait six months and then revisit it and try and remember how excited I was then and try and go back and find it.

So, you know, like, I remember last year during the finals, I think I bought, twenty twenty three optic gold vinyl Luca on eBay.

You know? Like, I didn't need that card. But but is it gonna you know, optic gold base set optic gold vinyl one of ones of PC players to me.

Anytime one of those comes up, I'm I'm going for it at that moment whether Luca's in the middle of the finals or he's, sidelined for a month with a calf.

Like, those just, those seem to be so hard to come by. So, like, if it's that type of thing, like, I'm I'm gonna go for it no matter, you know, what it is. If I'm and if if I'm excited, even better.

Final note on this one, maybe quick feedback from both of you. When you like, my observation on Halliburton during this finals moment has been that the his best rookie cards are available, and people are selling them.

We saw the black one of one go for a ridiculous amount. We saw the courtside one of one go.

You know, I wouldn't consider this the best, but there's been a lot of sales of the n t r p a. And so those those are changing hands while the Pacer stuff, the rare Pacer stuff, I I'm I haven't seen much of any of it.

So, like, my instinct has been people who were prospecting Halliburton, who've been sitting on those bigger cards.

They viewed that as the opportunity to let those cards go because Halliburton may never get back to this moment ever again. What what are what sorts of maybe in these moments for you?

What sorts of insights have you seen from the market, in do those insights change the way you would approach buying or not buying a card of a PC player, during those kind of mountaintop moments, Josh?

The only thing it makes me think of, you guys will probably have a better answer, so I'll just get very specific.

It just makes me think about how I need to step back and pick collections, players that I wanna collect for a really long time.

And I I personally have tried to not focus on players where I'm really excited in the moment, and then I know in a year, I probably won't be as excited.

So I'm try either that means I'm collecting players who are already established a little bit older, and then it doesn't matter when I buy them, I.

E. LeBron, some of these, like, receiver guys, older players. Or it's like a player on my team that I'm gonna support for a long time.

And then it kinda makes me more, like, less susceptible to making some of these mistakes you're describing and just sort of even if I buy like, for example, even if I bought a Halliburton card at two x the value from December, which we're seeing a lot of with his NTRPAs, as long as I know I'm gonna have that Halliburton RPA for the next five years because I I'm a Pacers fan, and I love it.

I'm just not as concerned about paying two x over, you know, a five month old comp if I have it for five years.

I'm just not gonna remember any of that stuff. A lot of the LeBron cards there's one that I a LeBron card that I paid a huge amount.

It was, like, $20. 21. I bought it, but I knew that I'm gonna have this card for a really long time. And now five years later, it's kinda gotten back to where the value was in 2021, and I don't even care anymore.

So So I'm just I'm just trying to focus hyperfocus on everything that comes into my PC at this point, especially the one on ones and the expensive stuff. I it needs to go through, like, a fine tooth comb of it.

Is this something I wanna focus on for a really long time? And if it doesn't, you know, the McHale Bridges c p three collections that I started, they just they never really had that chance, and I don't wanna make that mistake again.

I've I've loved you bring back the Bridges example a lot, and I think it's good self reflection and self awareness of you got caught up, you bought a car, and you realize you didn't want them, and kind of good chalk it up as a learning experience.

Chris, what what sort of final notes do you have on this topic? I would, I don't I don't really have a ton to add to that. I thought that that was great. And I guess, you know, the long term thinking of it is always a a great mindset.

That's I'll just I'll just underscore that that, thinking about how I'm going to feel about this purchase in six months and one year and five years and ten years, as a collector, And just sort of disciplining myself into understanding that I can be really, really excited about some new additions or some new piece that's being built or maneuvered into my collection.

But, not to not to, to be very cautious if I've if I go all in on it, and and to sort of respect all the different mindsets that I've had as a collector over the last ten years.

And there are cards in my collection. Some of the most important foundational cards in my collection are cards that, if I didn't have them, I'm not sure that I would go buy them on the open market today.

But I have had them for a long time. I do keep them. They don't exactly jive with my collecting philosophy or my collecting approaches right now, but I know that they once did.

And I know that there is a compelling case for them as cars to collect, and I know that I can oscillate back and forth between different mindsets and put myself back into the mindset of why I love and appreciate them.

And I'm always just really cautious before I just throw throw away everything and sort of, like, start from scratch, which is always so tempting when some when it whether it's the excitement of a PC player doing something amazing or discovering a new set or just that that excitement can really sweep me away.

And so I I almost, like, have to be very intentional about partitioning my collection into sections and saying, even though I'm not super excited about this section right now, I know that there that I probably will be again, and I know that I once was, and I know that there's a there's a lot of thought and belief and reason why it exists.

And so before I just tear it all down to to sweep in this new thing that I'm really excited about, I I try to avoid that as as much as I can.

I really, really try to avoid that. I try to keep things compartmentalized and and and not not get too swept away in any one moment or or, you know, era of excitement and a new a new chapter in collecting.

Good. We're warmed up now after that cold open question, and listeners of my content might think I'm manic by us jumping into the next topic.

But I had just spent kind of the last week defying rookie cards and talking about not why they don't matter, but why in some instances other cards might matter more.

But I wanna pull us back in the direction of rookie cards mattering and being the most important cards of a player's catalog, and the rookie card being the place where many of us start when we're collecting.

And I was formatting this episode, and I was thinking back into a conversation. I can't it was on a crossover that you guys were talking about.

And you were both talking about how when you're considering starting a new PC, the first thing you do is go back and look at the player's rookie year and what the catalog looks like.

And I remember that thread vividly. I think, you know, Josh, you might have been talking about evaluating Russell Westbrook stuff. But I was like, man, this seems like a good time to bring back this topic.

So, Chris, maybe we'll start with you. Is is this something you still do, and what is the reason why you kinda dissect a player's rookie card catalog before you decide whether you should collect them or not.

Do you remember, Brett, when you you used to use this slogan more than you do now?

You would say, we're gonna go Broadway. Yes. Can I go Broadway? Yes. The floor is yours. K. It's gonna take a few minutes. Alright. And I'm so glad you I was waiting to see if you had to ask, what's the reason?

Okay? So here is the reason. This or at least the reason as much as I've been able to decipher it. So the so let's start here. When I'm collecting as a collector, and I haven't always collected this way.

It's taken a long time for me to think that I want to approach this way. When I'm collecting, at my very first act is to put on an imaginary table in front of me every single sports card that's ever been made, every single one.

They are all on the table in front of me. And obviously, I don't have unlimited resources. I don't have unlimited time, and I need to make decisions. I can't have all I'd love to have every single one of these, but I can't.

So I have to start making trade offs. I have to consider opportunity cost. I have to make a decision. Knowing now that I have to make a decision, that means I need to figure out a way to remove some things from this table.

And, ultimately, I need to narrow this table down to maybe one card or in the moment that I'm that I'm trying to pursue.

I probably have funds for one card or maybe a few. So I need to I really need to take this table for millions down to two or three. And, therefore, I need to start excluding things from the entire universe of cards.

I see it. I understand it. Now I need to exclude and shrink it. And so one way to shrink it is player collecting. So let's take an example. Let's take Kevin Durant as an example.

If I decide that I wanna player collect Kevin Durant, how many cards did I just get rid of off the table? Millions. I just got I I just shrunk it to less than 1%, less than probably a tenth of a percent of all the card even less.

I mean, I'm I'm now I'm looking at one one hundredth of a percent or even less of the total world of cards. So I've already done a a really effective, efficient job of shrinking the c, another, stacking slabism.

Okay? So I've shrunk the c to just Kevin Durant's cards, but it's still a big c. I went from the ocean to a lake, but it's the lake still has thousands of fish in it.

And I can't catch all those fish. I can't. I have to I can only get one on my line at a time. So I have to shrink it again. And what are the tools, the conceptual tools that we as collectors can employ to shrink the sea?

And there's lots of them. So aesthetics, that's a big one. How beautiful is the card? Full stop. Another one is nostalgia. Did I open packs of this as a kid, or do I have some sort of great memory or fond recollection?

Or is this brand somehow associated in my mind or in the mainstream consciousness with positive sentiment that's just gonna make me happy flat out?

Because if so, that's that's that's a good starting point too. And then I think one of the most important ones, probably the most important one, is is rarity.

The the idea of rarity and how to find rarity. Rarity is a concept. Rarity is not anything that's that's necessarily objectively true. Rarity is true depending upon how we define the categories of things that we're talking about.

And so within the the the from the tree of rarity comes the branch of the idea of the first, the first. The first is a way to conceptually distinguish things.

And firsts have a lot of precedent. A quick example of how firsts show up in context other than card collecting. I remember being in property class in law school, and the idea of, riparian rights, the right to use water came up.

And in the Western frontier, there was this idea that, and it became enshrined in legal doctrine and in common law and even, codified in some instances, that the person who first uses a water source, whether they own the land next to it or not, the person who first uses it has a higher claim to it than somebody who later uses it.

And then in environments where there's droughts, or other sorts of, emergency situations, the people with the most senior claims to use the water get priority.

And that that's a doctrine that's, you know, hundreds of, hundreds of years old now. The the the doctrine of the first is it just sort of shows up in a lot of different places.

And so but but why? What's and especially as we import the first into the realm of card collecting philosophy, not not exactly, like, solving world peace here.

But if as we bring in the the idea of the first, what is the logical justification for the first?

And here's where I think it is. The first is something that, as an item in a chronological order, it can exist without a second, a third, or a fourth.

Relationally, the first needs the second or the third or the fourth to be the first, but chronologically, it doesn't. A first can exist whether or not a second or a third exists chronologically.

However, a second or a third or a fourth or a fifth, those all depend on the first chronologically in order to exist. You can't have a second without a first, And that's true oncologically and chronologically.

So there are two dimensions by which the second depends on the first, and then there's one dimension where the first depends on the second. Relationally, it does, but chronologically, it doesn't.

So in a certain sense, the fact that the first doesn't need the second or the third or the fourth and so on, but the second needs the first, and the third needs the first and the second and the fourth needs the first and the second and the third in order to logically exist, it's sort of conceptually, you can see how so everything springs from the first.

The first happens, and then it gives permission to everything else to happen. But without the first, nothing else is happening.

So the concept of the first is compelling on some level. It's just it's at this most basic level, it's logically prior to everything else, and it's logically necessary for everything else. And the inverse isn't true.

So philosophically, when we unpack what a first is, it starts to become me really meaningful. That's what I'm getting at. It's meaningful. It's significant. It matters. It's necessary to the for for the other things to exist.

So then I'll bring this to the idea of the rookie card. I think most people listening have probably made the connection in their head already that the rookie card is strongly connected to the first.

Because the rookie card is the idea that it's, fully licensed cards, typically, of the particular athlete at the highest level of their sport.

That's that's sort of a generic understanding of what a rookie card is, And they are the first instances of these types of cards in the sense that they're manufactured in association with the player's first season at that highest level.

So there's the firstness of it. And so I think that's why the rookie card concept is appealing is that, as I said, at the outset of, like, going into first, it's a it's a branch of the tree of rarity.

It's a way to take the Kevin Durant's sea of cards from thousands and turn it into a much smaller, more manageable amount of of however many cards that he has that are associated with his first, professional season.

Now the last thing I'll add here, and this is, this this this is this is an important conceptual point. All of this is contingent upon how we define which firsts matter.

So I'm making a subjective, point that the first professional season matters, but somebody collecting Luka might make the point that hit the the the the first that matters to them is his first season as a Laker.

So they might say that that's the first that matters to them, and and that's their they're gonna create rarity.

They're gonna dive into the conceptual rarity of his first Lakers cards. Or, it can really start to get dicey or messy or interesting or depending upon your point of view.

Take, for example, Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan's first NBA license cards came out sometime during 8485. I think there is some room for interpretation of which of those cards was first among the stars.

But but we certainly know that he has cards that were manufactured in association with his first professional season, 8485. However, what is the definition of a card?

Because he has a newspaper clipping that came out two or three years prior to that that some people say is his rookie card because it it's a picture of him on the front, and it's got words on the back that are biographical descriptions of him.

And so some people say that's a card, that, that this is actually Michael Jordan's first card, but but does it need to be licensed by the NBA?

Because he wasn't even in the NBA at that time. So does your definition of a card require licensing or not?

And and and then to take it even one step further to the ultimate extreme, what if Michael Jordan had a T ball card that was issued by the coach of his t ball team when he was playing t ball as a kid? Is that his first card?

It it does let's say that that is it's two and a half by three and a half. It looks like a card. It has stats on the back, picture of him on the front. Or even to get to the most absurd level, what if he had an ID card when he was born?

Or to take it to I think Josh once took it to this level on the crossover. What about his birth certificate? Is that his first card? What is a card? Is that his is that his first card? Does that meet the definition of a card?

So you can see how, like, the con the conceptual nature of this and how we define what a card is and then how we define which the first of which thing matters. These are these are all important decisions that we have to make.

But that's how I come around to the idea that if I'm looking at Kevin Durant cards, I'm going to look at his rookie year cards because those are first instances of something that helps me shrink the sea and that I personally think matter.

You you said an awful lot there. Excellent Broadway performance.

A couple of things that are being painted in my mind right now are, one, Ken Golden holding up Michael Jordan's birth certificate on an Instagram reel selling it. Like, that that is not beyond, happening, I don't think.

So, we'll have to keep an eye out for that. But then moving over from Kevin Durant, maybe I'll replace your Kevin Durant example with one of his former teammates, and that's Russell Westbrook as I pitch it over to Josh.

And, Josh, I remember you, like, going through the exercise, probably during a time where LeBron was, you know, prices were out of control, and you were maybe needing some action, wanting a new player to collect.

And so you were canvassing, I think, Westbrook. And you you the if my memory serves me correctly, the conclusion you came to was that the rookie catalog just is not good enough for me to wanna pursue collecting him.

Maybe walk us through, like, whether it's the Westbrook example or there's another example.

Like, what are the types of things that you're evaluating when you're digging into someone's rookie catalog to see if it's worth kinda your while and something that'll keep you going?

Because Westbrook was a, quote unquote, like, cheaper player than LeBron.

My goal was to obtain, like, his best best rookie cards or best cards without the word rookie in it, just best cards. And I personally categorize that as a rookie card, a one of one from a prestigious brand.

So taking the example of, like, the football players I'm pursuing, the primary reason I'm so excited about collecting those players is I can specifically point to one card for all of those players and pursue that exact card.

And for Westbrook, I didn't feel that that one existed.

He doesn't have a tops chrome super factor rookie. His RPA is numbered out of two twenty five. I think it's just like a higher number. There's just all these little things that that kept bothering me.

Like, his his Topps Chrome refractor was basically popular because the PSA 10 pop was low. That doesn't interest me. There's all these little things about that, his rookie year.

I've done the same experiment with Aaron Rodgers and Kevin Durant. I think Chris Christie's the Kevin Durant of it. Aaron Rodgers is similar. I believe he has a, shield auto rookie. Chris, You could nod your head.

I think he does. And I we have no idea where that one is. But his tops chrome rookie portfolio doesn't have a super factor. There's it's a similar kind of vibe. Whereas, like, Jamar Chase, he has a prism black finite rookie.

It's like it hits all the different things all at once, and he's cheap enough relative to my other collecting lanes where I feel it's worth my while to go after their top card. And Westbrook just didn't quite hit the mark.

Okay. This is good. I want to kind of before we get out of this thread, I want to maybe think about the rookie card in comparison of a first year of a product that kind of holds up and withstands the test of time.

I'm thinking through this ex so, like, with here's the like, with with Mahomes, it's, like, very, very straightforward. It's like, you know, well, Patrick Mahomes was in 2017 Prism.

And in 2017 Prism, Patrick Mahomes has, you know, gold Prism or, you know, his base, which is a silver. He's got, you know, several other parallels. But he's got his the gold, and he's got a finite.

Like, it's very easy to say, like, those are the Mahomes cards you start with. When when you look at, like, a Brady now, obviously, he's got the Bowman and the refractor, and the paper has a gold, the 99, and there's the champ ticket.

But based on what I know about you both as collectors, my my assumption is those cards probably wouldn't be as appealing to you as a 2012 maybe Gold Prism or, you know, the Black Finite, which we haven't seen.

So I don't know. Like, how does that like, like, that conversation around maybe a player and and if you like Brady's rookie stuff, you you do. There are plenty of people who like it, but I'm just using it as a point of comparison.

How do you how would you measure up if you wanted to be, like, a Brady collector, like both of you? Say you both said, I'm going to collect Tom Brady, and this is what I'm gonna do.

Would you based on everything that we just talked about, would you go into the rookie catalog of it all and start there, or would you go into maybe a first year? And I'm just using Prisma as an example, but it could be do anything else.

And how do those compare and contrast? Like, first year of a premium product versus rookie catalog that might not specifically align with exactly the types of cards that you wanna collect.

Chris, if you if you wanna go Broadway for the rest on this one, be my guest. I don't know. Can I keep thinking? Josh, do you have something maybe tip of okay. Go for it.

There's certain players that transcend everything I said earlier where you enjoy this player so much that you're willing to ignore the shortcomings of the rookie cards, I e, Michael Jordan, who has, like, the worst rookie cards I can imagine.

And he's the most popular, most collected athlete of all time. So we're clearly willing to ignore these sets of rules given the players.

For me, it's Antonio Brown. He has the worst rookie card collection. It's so bad. He, like, he was a low enough draft pick where he's not in the cool product, sticker autos, etcetera, etcetera.

He doesn't have any cool one on ones. So I'm just, like, making a new rule, which is well, he primarily came up in the Panini era. So let me try to find his first Panini finiter, his first, you know, Panini gold or whatever.

So you can, like, remake the rules to your point. Given the player, if you if you enjoy that player so much, you you can just sort of, like, break some of these rules.

Don't don't you like, with Antonio Brown, and I know there's a competitive market on Brown, but is it like isn't that I don't know.

To me, like, that angle of collecting is a lot more satisfying because it's less certain that other people are doing that, and it's more certain that even if the rookie cards don't look great or whatever, they're more appealing because a hobby narrative says, like, we should start with rookie cards.

Do you like, have you found in that endeavor to be more satisfying or maybe just as satisfying as kind of the the rookie black finite runs you've been on?

I would prefer there to be a rookie black finite Antonio Brown, but it does kinda, like, put my mind at ease that I don't have to pursue his rookies. And it's, like, one less thing I have to worry about.

You know, I could just focus on everything after it. So it's like, oh, we just spent ten minutes saying, if this guy doesn't have good rookie cards, don't bother. But it's like, well, I like this player so much.

I'm making a new set of rules. And that's kind of the point of collecting, I feel like, is like, we all sort of make up these rules of what we're willing to shrink our sea of collecting down to and get down to the lake, like Chris said.

And, the reason rookie cards are so valuable is, like, a lot of us organically make those same internal rules, and we all, you know, gravitate towards those first year cards organically.

And that's what makes them valuable. It's not because someone wrote in a book one day that you you have to get all the rookies, you know?

Like, we just all want the first organically. Chris, you wanna cast your reel one more time and and and land anywhere? Do you do you have anything, final to say on this thread? Yeah.

So if I'm on a fishing boat on the lake of Tom Brady rookies or Tom Brady cards or something, and then I, like, navigate to the bay, which represents his rookies, I would I like, I'm I would literally started thinking to myself, if I was gonna start collecting Brady, where would I go?

And, like, you have, like, the opportunity to really get into some firsts. Like, obviously, like, if you go to rookie year, we're talking first year of his professional career, so that's a first.

You can also kind of especially, like, with stuff from that era, you can look for first, releases of a product. You can you can try and see if there's you can, like, start stacking first.

Like, is did Brady have his first card from his first professional season in the first appearance of a product? Because now we're, like, starting to stack some first here.

And then within that, can I does he have multiple cards? Or or whether he does or he doesn't, but can I actually go to the first set in that product, which conceptually probably is the base set?

And then can I get to his first card in that first set? So can I get his first year, first appearance of a product, first card?

I don't know. It's just you can really get, like you can really start going nuts with the first stuff. And I would probably try to find something that that would, like, really be, conceptually satisfying like that.

But, but, it and and and I found, Brett, as the more the time rolls by, the more I shift from coveting the iconic to coveting the rare. But, I have looked at, Brady's catalog before, and I've I I have nothing against this.

I think this is a way to create rarity for other collectors, but it's not a way that I like to create rarity. But he but a lot of his cards are in his Michigan uniform, and I'm not against that.

Like, if if somebody said, I wanna make a Tom Brady collection that is, like, the most rarest cards of him in a Michigan uniform, I think that's a great way to create rarity.

It's just not the way that I would do it. And and there's there's not a right way or a wrong way to do it.

But I've I've looked at Brady, and I've seen that some of those cards that, like, start checking boxes that are, intriguing to me, they they either have him in a Michigan uniform, which is like that's like 50% aesthetic critique, 50%, you know, sort of licensing critique, or maybe mix in a little critique of, like, is this you know, do I I think what I really care about for his cards of him in his first pro seasons, I want those cards to show him in at least pro garb of some kind even if it's not a pro uniform.

If my whole theme is about pro, then I probably want him in pro stuff.

It it so is that's and then and then also just aesthetically, just even setting aside the uniform stuff, sometimes I just I don't really like the way that they look. And and that matters too. Like, rarity isn't the only factor here.

Like, I've talked a lot about rarity in first, but, but aesthetics matter, uniform matters, my nostalgia for the brand matters. So many things end up mattering when I look at the at the Brady offering.

That was a great, topic and conversation. And if you have any thoughts or opinions, definitely, get at us. We'd love to kinda continue that conversation. Let's dig into a card ladder related topic.

This is one that I've been wanting to talk about and just needed a reason. And we influence each other in ways in the hobby, and I know influence is kind of one of those terms that kinda you know, it's like nails on a chalkboard.

It's tied to influencer, but I think influence can be good. And, Chris, you influenced me on a purchase, and that was when you first showed me the 2023 Select Courtside, Jokic Black Finite one of one.

And you I looked at the card, and I I remember looking at the card before you we talked about it, and I was like, god.

This card is amazing looking. It just looks great. And he's holding it up. Chris, it's it's a pretty card. Getting the shine on it. I remember you saying, well, yeah.

It's well, it's the first black finite in basketball, and I then, like, my wheel started spinning. And a Halliburton popped up. And then but I I missed out on it. And then during this before this run, this was, like, maybe buck series.

The Halliburton popped up again, and I was like, I I have to buy this card. So I ended up buying the card. And so then I started to think about this, and we have seen Panini decide, you know what?

This has been a football thing, but because maybe we're in the final lap, let's start integrating the black finite and other products we saw in select football.

We've seen it in WWE retail. We're we're seeing it in WNBA retail. So what I wanna do here is just compare some maybe, like, black and Black Finite sales, but start with this.

Even though Black Finite has been a football designated, parallel for this entire Panini run, and I would say in a lot of collector's eyes, the the their favorite or the best parallel, What do you think about the Black Finite now in the final days that Panini has a license?

What do you think about it not being exclusive to football cards and being integrated in other product lines?

Josh, I know you're a big finite guy. What do you think? I like it. I don't have an issue with it. I think Pini is capitalizing on a aesthetically very good looking parallel that they have had great success with in football.

My issue with it is just that they they just can't, like, change the past and make it the primary one of one from the past.

Therefore, I can't ignore the fact that the black not finite for basketball is kind of, to me, is the the, you know, the longest lineage of the primary one on one, especially for, like, looking at, like, the Jokic rookie, you know, Devin Booker.

Like, those guys have, like and then Giannis. I I know Giannis has the mosaics. That's a bad example. But going back, it's primarily been just, like, the standard black.

But I don't have an issue with them adding to it. I texted Chris the other day. I said something along the lines of, I like my one of ones to really look like one of ones. I like to have that, like, extra kick to them.

And so, like, the black versus the gold doesn't quite have that kick other than the fact that it is a one on one, but the black finite, it just sort of, like, twists it in a way, like, how the super fracture and the gold vinyl take the color, and then they have that little bit of a this is why I like the ninety eight ninety nine gem master.

You know, it takes, like, the concept of the parallel, and it also just, like, turns it up, twists it to, like, okay. It's also gonna be you know, have this other, like, pattern to it combined with the color change.

So all that to say, pluses and minuses, I like it. They're I think they're better looking than the standard black. So if I were Chris as well, I'd be like, yeah.

I need the and you it you the way you said it is, like, I need the I need that first black finite because you just sort of look at it. You're like, it reminds you of the super factor and the football black finance.

You just want it. Are you are you at ease, though, the fact that Panini made the decision to not put the finite in the flagship prism brand and put it in select? Does that make you feel better about the way they've gone about it?

It's fine. It doesn't it doesn't bother me either way. I mean, they're gonna be not making football or basketball cards here very soon, and we might just sort of look back on this as, like, oh, that was weird.

They made some black finance at the end. You know, it might just it might be a blip. I personally enjoy the fact that football has its primary lineage with black finance.

That's just, like, another little thing that brings me joy knowing that, like, the basketball cards don't have this, and it, you know, kinda gives me that little extra edge.

And then adding it at the end doesn't really it doesn't, like, ruin that for me, if that makes sense. Chris, what what do you got here?

I also wish that basketball had the black finite rather than the, matte black or, or whatever we would call it. I because I I think the I I like the look. Like, turn up the shiny knob as high as possible. Okay?

Let's just crank that knob. Just like I want steroids. It is. I want like, when Josh was talking, I was like, this this this is the super factorization of the one of one where, like, the one of one needs to have the most ornaments.

It needs to just look the most, like, impenetrable, the card that should be sitting on the throne, and the finite achieves that.

And, the true black or matte black or I don't know how to describe it, that it has a basketball, it's very nice too. Very, very, very nice. But I just like the finite just a touch more.

And the and the thing I'll add about, how do we feel about, finite spreading to other brands and sort of starting to pop up in, other sort of, parallels and products that it didn't always show up in.

And, it's cool. It it it runs the risk of watering it down. I think, I think they this also started happening with Nebula, where Nebula started getting placed.

For first, it started in Spectra, then it went to Prism, and then, then it went to Optic. And then at a certain point, you know, if it gets too spread out, it just it it it does I start to get concerned that it's gonna get watered down.

But, but but then to to to tie this back into earlier discussions, then then that puts more emphasis on the on the first on the first one.

The the first, finite the first black finite in select, I think, takes on even more significance when, you know, suddenly we have, like, five or six years of it.

Like, the first just becomes even a little more interesting. Alright. Let's get into some of these sales comparing and contrasting, and I can't believe I'm showing his cards right now as he's given me so much pain here.

And this is the 2022 Jaylen Williams Select black one of one courtside. This sold in September of twenty four for 6 k. So it's got, like, the the checkerboard black look, but it's identified as a black one of one.

And we move over into '23 with the finites. We've got an Eamon Thompson black finite, both PSA 10. This thing sold in April of twenty five for nearly 11 k.

So you've got, you know, from September 24 to April 25, I don't think, like, you can say, oh, the market was going crazy during this time and that time. So it's like the markets I don't know.

The markets to me, like, I don't think they might have played a role, but not maybe not a pivotal like, as pivotal of a role as maybe looking back on pandemic to now. But then you, also, you look at the two players.

And I would say, like, J Dub and Thompson, in terms of, like, people are excited about these players, they have both of them seemingly have limitless potential. And I just wanted your opinion on those two sales.

Like, should the Eamon Thompson, because it is a, Black Finite, be an 11 k card when or be $5,000 less than the J Dub, which is essentially obviously, you've got the horizontal factor, which you gotta play into that.

But I don't know. One's a black, one's a black finite. The black finite in this scenario is 5 k more. What is your read on these types of sales? Does the finite play a role at all in the Thompson being listed or going higher?

What do you have to say? And I know there's a lot of different factors that go into this. So either one of you jump in, and I'd love your opinion on it. Yeah. I'm having a hard time ignoring all the factors.

Like, different players, this one's horizontal, the other one's vertical. And this sale occurred in 2024, so kinda before the Jalen Williams finals run hype and Damon Thompson is, like, younger.

People will pay more for younger players. But, I mean, I think it definitely does. I mean, it's the other one's better looking.

Right? So you're saying, all things considered, just first glance, first appearance, the Thompson is more impressive. Yeah. I okay. Chris, anything to add to that? Yeah. I agree. I do think it's better looking.

But, I think they both look great, personally. I have, I have the Jokic of both. I have I have the twenty twenty two, cord side black checkerboard Jokic, and I have the twenty twenty three cord side finite Jokic.

I like both of them What do you like better? Quite a bit. Well, I that's just kind of the thing to me is, like, aesthetically, I I am a huge simp for the black finite.

So I've I do think the black finite is a nicer looking pattern, but I think, like, from the point of view of significance, in either event, both of them are the true black one of one, and and the one replaced the other.

So for courtside, it took one black, one one of one that was called black without any modification, not fast break or anything like that, just the black, and that was the checkerboard black that you showed of J Dub.

And then here, the black finite substituted itself in for the black checkerboard and became the only black one of one outside of, like, the fast breaks and the discos and sort of the modified blacks.

So and and to me, at least, my interpretation of the checklists is that these are both the true black one of one of the courtside tier for both of those players.

And and and on that level, like, I think they both look great. And to me, I I think they're pretty equivalent.

I I personally as my vantage point as a collector, I don't see a huge difference between them. If if I was collecting a player, whether it's Thompson or Jada, I'd I'd pursue both of them, pretty much equally as strong. Agreed.

Okay. So, we had a few lined up. We'll just do one more, because I know it's the top Do the Clark. Do the Clark. I Josh, of course. And I saw you posting about these Clark sales in your story, so I can't wait to get your feedback.

And I also say, just because I'm in the heart of Clark Country right now, like, there'll be no offense taken on, either one of these comments.

But I I think, like, from the perspective of wrong one here. Okay. This is what I wanna know about these two sales.

Is the finite is the finite proving itself to be the card in this scenario even when there has been a longer lineage and legacy of the gold vinyl one of one in WNBA Prism Hobby, and we'll start here.

We'll start with, yeah, we'll start with what just sold. So you've got the Clark Finite card $1. 45 PSA nine selling for 275 k essentially at auction, which is just an astounding number.

That happened June 14. In May 29, her gold vinyl and a PSA nine number one forty five, sold for $1. 75. So you have essentially a 100 k difference in value from the finite to the gold vinyl.

The finite, for anyone who's not familiar, the first year that's ever been in WNBA product, it's in the retail blasters, which is absolutely insane that this card came out of a retail blaster.

And then the vinyl gold vinyl, it has not always been the premier one of one. The first two years, they had the traditional black one of one moved over to the gold vinyl.

This year was the first year with two one of ones, and we just saw them, to make matters even more complicated, which everyone probably already knows.

This is not Caitlin Clark's only, base prism. The card number 22 is the action shot. But for this scenario, Black Finite, one of one selling for a 100 k more than the gold vinyl.

What does this tell us? Josh Johnson, jump in. This is a fantastic isolation of the two cards with the same number in the set, two different parallels, same grade, selling close together.

This is as good as we're gonna be able to get analyzing these two cards side by side, so I'm very thankful for that. This to me says the hobby at large.

I'm isolate I'm not gonna isolate WNBA collectors because I think Caitlin Clark is really putting herself in a position where everyone the pool of collectors for Caitlin Clark is not WNBA collectors anymore.

This is like high end high end people going after her cards. And it's it's really speaking to, like, basketball overall collectors similar to how people would collect Michael Jordan or LeBron.

She's at that point in her popularity. So because of that, I think that those types of people just don't care about the lineage as much for these WNBA cards.

You, you yourself pointed out like WNBA can't even figure out the lineage. It's like, oh, we had black and then we had gold vinyl. So, like, the the purest WNBA collectors may say to you, well, the gold vinyl is true one zero one.

You know, this is the retail. But for the new pool of people coming in and buying these cards, they're like, the black finite looks better. Mhmm. And I'm more familiar with it from men's basketball cards. The gold vinyl's at a five.

You know, they they sort of associate these things together, and that that to me is, like, why this one's sold for more. I will also point out if you go to the CL value of the gold vinyl, it's actually up to, like, $2.

20. So, like, there is a little bit of a shift in value from Clark between those two sales, but still, it's like a 70 k difference or whatever. Oh, boy. Chris, what is your opinion on these?

This is by the way, this is about as good of a comp as you could possibly get on the finite versus everything else. I do agree. Yeah. It's perfect. Yep. That's a really nice pair of data points there.

I I have a quick comment on how Panini constructed its WNBA products. Like, you pointed out, Brett, that there are two different base cards of Clark, I think number twenty two and one forty five.

And then for each, they gave us two different one of one options, the finite versus the vinyl. And then you have the select, and they gave us three tiers in select.

Mhmm. And then each of those tiers took two different one of ones, also a finite and a gold vinyl. And I love that Panini did this. At first, I hated it because it was messy and maybe not even intentional.

I don't know. I I'm I'm not sure what the mentality was, but I I came around to really, really like it because what they by giving us choices and and lots of great choices, you can't go wrong. You know?

Oh, I've I've I'm not, it it's hard to, like, criticize somebody because, like, this person over here likes the, the court side, and this other person likes the concourse, and one person likes the black vinyl, the other person likes the gold vinyl.

Like, we're choosing among great options here.

But by giving more and more choices, they gave us, as collectors, the opportunity to be more original, to express ourselves creatively, to express ideas creatively, more than if there's just, like, this is the card, and this is what everybody's pursuing, and this is that it's that simple.

There's choices here. And then, you know, there's been really interesting discussions spring up around why some people say, I think one forty five is my favorite Clark prism, and other people say, no.

I think it's the 22. And so there's been more originality is is unlocked in collecting, and then more authenticity gets unlocked. And it all just makes collecting more fun to me at the end of the day.

Oh, and as a byproduct, it makes it more affordable because the more options means a more diffuse, supply, which means, you know, people have to spread their money around a little bit more.

Now I'm throwing you guys this as a curveball. And, again, I I do think the black vine is nicer, especially, like, Prisma and Select. I really, really think it's nicer.

But there is a there is a counterpoint, which is that Clark's, concourse, from Select in a grade of PSA 10 and I I'm throwing this curveball at you guys right now. Like, I didn't send you the links before.

I just looked it up during the show. So, like, I'm sorry that they're I'm not I haven't given you guys time to, like, reply to this. But, in December on December 28, her black Finite Concourse PSA 10 sold for $52.

And then on February 22, her gold vinyl Concourse PSA 10 sold for a $105. So it it flipped the script, with the select Concourse. So I I I don't know, if that's you know, there's that's not Prism, obviously.

I think Prism and Black Finite have one of the strongest brands of any parallel in product, and I don't think it's as strong in Select. But but there there's a counter data point too that, that went the other way.

And I remember somebody on Twitter sort of pointed it out to me because I was, being strong in favor of the finite, then they were like, well, but wait a minute.

And I said, okay. That's that's true. That did happen too. But I I am in the finite camp, but but that data point those data points exist too.

Same grade too. Both PSA tens on those selects. Yeah. I I don't I don't know anything anymore. I don't know anything anymore. I didn't even know about that. The I'll I'll say this.

So I I acquired the gold PSA 10 Concourse of Clark shortly before the it was like I had just bought the gold, and then the I the finite popped up the next week for sale, and I remember being like, this is gonna be crazy.

Like and I not I'm not even gonna try to go for it.

In retrospect, now knowing what I know about everything, like, whoever bought that card, I think that might might have been the best purchase of any of the Clark cards we've ever seen purchased based on it being the first rookie card.

It came, like, it came shiny rookie cards. It was the first one, concourse, and then you layer in the finite you layer in the price point in comparison to all of these other sales, and whoever owns that card, you killed it.

So I I much prefer that over the gold vinyl, but, I'm a little biased too just as an owner of the a copy of the gold.

But, yeah, it's a good good good point to bring up. In here, how about this? Thought experiment for both of you. What if optic this year introduced a black finite?

Then in the context of optic, would you rather have the optic gold vinyl one of one from that season or the optic black finite? Dude, I like my I like my optics finally, and I like my prisms finitely.

Exact me too. I think that's I think that's fair, but but, like, the problem is is you got the double the double f, the alliteration, the finite first, and I you get mesmerized going down the finite first track with any of these.

I know I have. So it's like gold vinyl, I think of optic for sure. But Well, think think about the pump that somebody could put together for that, that 2024 select black finite.

Like, this is Clark's first black finite in select. You know what that pump looks like? You know that pump that pump looks the same as the pump that goes something like 2024 football, first year Nebula, guys.

Yeah. You got it. It's better than black finite or whatever. And I just I picture the guy or girl with the concourse, finite of Clark and being like, yeah.

I mean, you you have somebody else has the prism, and it sold for six times as much as mine, but my finite came out before your prism finite came out.

You know? There's just there's so many layers to that that concourse Clark finite that's, that's another thing you have to decide.

Like, once you get, like, to those rookie season, then do you care about the chronological order in which the products were released?

Like, does it matter to you that Select actually came out before Prism if they both take a finite? And then if that does matter to you, are you why stop there?

I mean, does it matter which was manufactured first? Because what if Prism the Prism cards actually came off the machine first, but Select got packed out and distributed first.

But then if if that matters, well but what if conceptually, Prism was, like, drawn in Photoshop and it it was mocked up in a Photoshop and a computer before Select was.

So then is Prism really the first one? I mean, that that's why, like, I've I've I've landed on sort of I I I stopped caring at at the season.

If it's associated with the first season, that's fine. I'm I'm not so concerned about the the month or the order of the release, like, within that season.

Can I can I get out my quick little Caitlin Clark sidetrack rant? If you let me just jump in real quick and add this, and then you can go. I'll say this about all of that.

What I think the benefit of all of what you said, one of the, like, the golden nuggets in it and I've said this, and I can't I can't remember where I said this, but everyone was complaining about Clark's cards not coming out during the WNBA season in a rookie year.

And which yeah. It's egregious. They should have been out, whatever. But one of the benefits was, you look at card number 22, that is a card that is a shot from an actual game against the aces.

So you're actually getting in game photography, no airbrush of the generational player that transcends everything.

And that little nugget, I think, is really cool. Josh, go ahead. Yeah. And I think, like, in five years, we're not gonna be like, dude, that Clark's not a real rookie.

It came out the year you know, they manufactured it at six months. No one's gonna remember that. People are already forgetting that for Wenmen Yama.

They're sort of moving on from that. The little rant is more like, we've spent this time trying to figure out, oh, Clark's finite verse gold vinyl, and, like, why is this one more expensive?

But then the select was different. It flipped it. And then I look at I just sort Caitlin Clark by price, and the number one card is a prism insert sticker auto.

And then the second is a black finite, you know, photo you know, photo shoot. And then the third one is a throwback sticker auto, and then the fourth is a select sticker.

So my my observation is that, like, the people jumping into this pool of buying Caitlin Clark rookies have absolutely have absolutely no idea what's going on, and they're just like, oh, I have 300 k set aside for the next biggest Clark, and I'd happen to be buying today.

And this is the one I'm gonna bid all out on, and it's a one on one. I might not see another one. I'm gonna bid $400, and and it's just sort of, like, throw it against the wall and and hope I know what I'm doing.

And that was kind of the spirit of my story post was, like, it's great to be excited about the Caitlin Clark thing, but, I mean, put it in perspective that her sort of, like, random sticker auto one zero one vinyls that that aren't perfectly situated like Mahomes is where it's like the black you know what I mean?

Like, we've got all these different choices, and it's not as clear cut.

Those even those random ones are selling for more than, like, the Giannis more clear cut, the Mahomes more clear cut options. And it's like, you guys need to calm down a little bit.

The the unknown, like, why cards matter and which ones matter more, that, like and then the people coming in just throwing money at everything, that that like, when I saw the sale of the Select and saw those sticker autos going nuts, that told me out of the gates, you can't afford this Concourse Black Finite because of what these are going for, so don't even try to go for it.

And so I and then I was dumbfounded by the I didn't even I was out, like, probably in bed when the auction ended. But when I saw the result in comparison to the other ones, I was dumbfounded.

And I I didn't realize what had happened. Up it it took me much later to realize, well, that's because whoever's buying these cards, it's just they're just throwing cash and just saying, just give me these cards.

Yeah. But it's just, like, two two people went to war over a sticker auto, and then they both got tired and forgot the next one.

And, like, to your point, the Select Black Finite sold for 50. It's like, you guys should have spent 300 on that one and 50 on the sticker autos, but you didn't know or you you timed it wrong or whatever.

Okay. Well, in the interest of time, we're running a little tight on time, but I wanna get, we're gonna, unfortunately, skip acquisition stuff.

I'm sure if you listen over the crossover or crossover, you guys will talk about what cards you're getting.

I wanna make sure we end it here. Right? Today, I just said on Instagram, hey. We're taking questions. And I looked down at my phone. I was like, oh, shit. I asked people, and let me look at the questions.

And the first question I got was a DM, and it was from Iowa Dave. And the question was so good. I was like, that's the question. And so Dave's question everyone shout out Iowa Dave, go listen to the Shallow End Podcast.

But he asked, do you believe in the concept of a turning point card, a card that after you get it, changes how you collect and or think about collecting?

If so, what was that card for each of you, and is it still in your collection? Great topic. I've never thought about turning point, but reading what he's asking definitely made sense to me.

Chris, do you what do you think about this concept? Do you have a turning point card in your collection? Yeah. It's a it's a really great question.

Given Dave's background in journalism, I see how he's setting up the question to have an an a narrative bent to it. And I I wish my story did have some sort of linear or clear arc to it, but I don't think it worked that way.

I think, just like a lot of different, forms of, well, maybe progress or development or those words, like, imply that something's getting better, but I'm more just talking about a change in the collecting philosophy that happens over time.

I don't think it happens like, just, oh, I there was this, there was a moment where the light bulb went off and there everything changed.

I just think it happened very slowly and incrementally and a few steps forward and a few steps back and a few steps to the side, a few steps to the other side and just sort of a lot of shuffling around.

I I I certainly think, I remember I I was trying and when I looked looked ahead and saw this question, I was trying to think, well, maybe it was, like, the first one of one card I ever got that, made an impact on me.

But I just I don't really think it worked that cleanly.

I I think, like, the first one of ones I was picking up was sometime in 2018, late twenty eighteen, when I was switching over from collecting only Michael Jordan, which I had done for the previous few years, and then shoot and then bringing in Luca Donciches as the second PC player.

And I know that in late twenty eighteen or early twenty nineteen, Christina and I picked up for the Luca PC, a net Marvel's one of one or maybe that came a little bit later because, like, because he wasn't in he didn't have his first net Marvel's one of one until 2019.

I remember buying a few of his 2018, 19 threads one of ones early ish.

I I remember getting his, one of his 2019 prism black insert one of ones. So it was sometime around it must have been more in 2019. But but but I as I thought about it, I was like, no.

I there's it it certainly wasn't like a turning point on one of these one of ones or something. It just didn't happen that way. It was it was all just gradual and slow and in incomplete and messy.

And, I was so I just I I actually I wish I did have a really cool card where I could be like, that that was it. And then it changed my collecting philosophy, but I but it hasn't worked that way.

I think it's it's very slow and gradual. And, and and and, and I don't know if I've ever had, like, a big, like, like a bit like a like an inflection point in my collecting journey, especially not at any one card.

I I think I've I I think I've instead of, like, instead of a a light switch on and off being the metaphor here or, like, or an inflection point or something, it's more so like, a sand castle.

And, like, I had the first row, and then I went and I got more sand, and I put more sand on it. I built up this wing of the sand castle for a while, and then I went over to a different wing.

It's it's more just, like, building on top of the sand castle rather than, at some point, I sort of, like, flattened one sand castle and moved over and and built a different one.

Josh, what about you? I do have a a pretty fun story on this question that I haven't really reflected on until now, so I'm excited to tell it.

But first, let me say you saved me an unbelievable amount of, embarrassment given that I have zero mail days and Chris has, like, six, just one of one grail type PC changing level cards that I know he's excited to share.

So thank you for saving me that that embarrassment relative to his. I have zero. The story goes, so, like, maybe, like, two or three years ago well, first, I started doing, like, the football stuff in my first iteration.

I had, like, RPAs out of 99, Golds, you know, out of 10, random football players I enjoyed. So I'd kinda been through that, but it didn't quite stick.

I wasn't quite as excited about it as I as I thought I might be long term. I just kinda got bored of how easy it was to pick up some of those. And then Chris is just, like, beating me over the head constantly with this one on one thing.

It's like every crossover week to week, and it's just so like he said, it's not like a light switch where it's like, oh, one on ones are better.

You're right. It just sorta, like, organically, you kinda, like, take in that information and and build up to it.

And then he was trying to get, like, the Tyreke black finite a few years ago, and I sorta was like, oh, that's neat. It doesn't really fit with your collection, but I get why you like it.

And then it came up for auction, and he sort of was like, this is the card to buy. You know? And I was like, man, you're kinda right. Like, it's like it's like the two point o of the football thing I tried.

And I'd spent I was like, are you sure you're not bidding on this? You know? Like, I I really wanted to make sure I wasn't about to just, like, steal this new lane.

And it just sorta happened where I won that auction, and then I was like, I got it. I got the card. It was like, holy crap. You know, this is, like, definitely the two point o of what I tried before. It's like the one on one.

It's the rookie. It's, you know, it's visually much different. Like I described earlier, the finites are incredible. And it just sent me down this turning point of, like, I just need all these one on one football guys now.

This is so sick. So I kinda, like, swiped it from him, but we you know, it was like an organic transition. So I thought that was kind of a neat story. That's amazing. Real quick.

It's the second time I brought this card up, but I didn't never thought about it like this up until Dave's question. Dave, great question. Mine is the the first finite I ever picked up, and that was the 2014 Andrew Luck black finite.

That card set my collection on an entire new trajectory. And it and so much so that if I had to sell everything in my collection but one lane, it would be protecting my Colt's black finite collection.

And it I would have never have gotten there if it wasn't for that 2014 design, one of my favorite players.

And having that card, getting it back from PSA, getting it a PSA 10, and having that in hand be like, what am I doing with this other stuff? Like, this is where my time and my money should be focused.
t
So I love this topic, and I would I think it's a fun one to explore further. But, yeah, we, we went Broadway and then some, good conversation. Everybody, if you're not already, check out card ladder.

Really appreciate everyone's feedback and support on these episodes. Chris, Josh, love doing these. Enjoyed the conversation. Looking forward to doing it again down the road. Thanks, Brett. Yep. Great great show as always, man.