We're back with another episode of CardLadder confidential cold open question time. My favorite part of the show just right out of the gates because Josh and Chris have no idea what I'm about to ask.

Maybe Chris got a little bit of a preview to this question, but he he doesn't know that. It's because we were texting a little bit yesterday about it. But I wanna know this.

NBA playoff time, there's three players, and we're thinking about these players who are really good players for their respective teams and also pretty impactful players in the basketball side of the hobby where you've got Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Halliburton, go Pacers, and Shea Gilders Alexander.

All three of these players have a chance to win a championship this year. All three of these players did not start their career with their respective team. This brings up an interesting dilemma when we're collecting sports cards.

And I just wanna ask you both, if you were a collector of Brunson, Halliburton, or Shea Gilders Alexander and you are to look forward, like, ten years, what cards do you think would be the most attractive to the broader market?

Will and we'll even put a sprinkle on this. Like, one of these these guys, maybe all three of them over the course of that period, all win at least one championship.

Would it be the rookie cards in the jersey of a team that they did really nothing on, or would it be other cards in the jersey of the team that they'll be known for?

I will start with you, Chris, because you got some framing to this a little bit when we were messaging, and you've had maybe a little more time to consider this.

What do you say? Well, I think it's a really difficult question, and I don't know. I don't have a clear right answer in my mind on this question.

I still, my gut instinct, which, like, I it might be wrong because, like, I I may think about this after we record today and then change my mind. But my gut instinct on this, which is why which is why you love the cold open question.

Right? Like, I get a mulligan on this if I say something stupid because I didn't have any chance to prepare. The odds of that are fifty fifty probably.

My gut instinct is I just like the rookie card better because, I'm a sports card collector before a fan of any particular team when it comes to my player. So, like, for me, that's that's the algorithm or the decision tree or whatever.

But I can certainly see the other side where, you know, let's say you're a Knicks collector who's PC'ing Jalen Brunson not because you think he's the greatest thing ever, although maybe you happen to think that now, but you're PC'ing him because he's the best player on your team.

He's giving you all these playoff moments.

There's a real connection. There's a nostalgic thing a lot of stars have aligned. And if you're in that situation and you're a sports card collector too, I can see it being a much tougher choice between, like, yeah.

I mean, these are his rookie cards. These are the cards associated with the first pro season that's meaningful on a lot of levels in sports cards.

But my connection to him is is it starts with the Knicks. So his Knicks, quote, unquote, rookie cards have a lot of meaning to me too. So, you know, I'm facing this dilemma with Luka.

Like, do am I gonna get gung ho about his first issues Lakers issues? And to be honest, I'm not. I've I've really not fired up. I mean, they're gonna be very expensive. That's, like, already discouraging from the outset.

But, also, I just there's there's nothing really, like, calling me to them, at least not yet. On the Luca cards, really quick before we toss it over to you, Josh. Is the Luca factor of maybe not pursuing his Lakers cards?

Does it have anything to do with the license changing over the tops? Yeah. Yeah. It's a factor too. It's just such an an unknown. You know? What are gonna be the brands? Where are gonna be the cards?

That's definitely part of it too. Yeah. Alright, Josh. What do you say? Same thing. I come at this from, the perspective of a player collector, especially LeBron. He's been on three teams now, two stints with the Cavs.

And every LeBron card that I own is from his first stint with the Cavs. So I I tend to lean more towards the earlier cards if I had a choice. So I I I still lean with, like, the rookie cards.

But in the example you have of those three guys, it wouldn't bother me at all that they're in different jerseys on their rookie cards. And if that deters someone else, it makes it better for me.

I can get it cheaper maybe. What do you, maybe cards put cards to the side and just looking at these? Like, the more I look at those and this wasn't like this I mean, this happened in recent years. These are all pretty young players.

The fact that this happened where you've got three players this good that have were traded early on in their career, does that indicate anything to you about the the league and and what's happening at maybe a macro perspective?

Probably that the GMs don't know what they're doing. I can't believe the Kings let Halliburton walk out the door. And then they traded the they're thinking, oh, we've already got Fox. And then they traded Fox.

So just seems like incompetence to me. Yeah. I think I saw that. Three. I mean, that that Clippers OKC trade is, like, one of the worst trades of all time. I think The Paul George and all the picks and everything.

I think I think I saw that with this second eastern conference or conference finals appearance from Halliburton, two in a row, that matches the all time conference appearance from a Kings perspective.

So, not trying to throw salt in the Kings fans' wounds, but I'm really happy Tyrese Halliburton plays on on my basketball Chris, any any insights, from you on this?

Yeah. I think it also speaks to how much, and as football fans, I think we can appreciate this a lot in the context of basketball. It also shows how much team and organization and situation matter.

So, like, of the players that we mentioned, I know, for example, that the Thunder had a better winning percentage and a better net rating when in the six games that Shaikh Ilgis Alexander did not play this year.

They were five and one, and they had a net rating of, like, plus 18. So they were already historically great when he did play, but in the games without him, they were even better.

And even in the games that he did play, their, net rating when he was playing in the game but off the floor is plus 5. 2. That would have been the second best team in the West without him. So he's in a great situation.

Jalen Brunson, his team has a better record and a better night rating without him this year. And when he the difference between when games when he plays, there the the the on off deference was, like, plus eight.

They are plus eight points for 100 possessions better when he's not in the game than when when he's on the bench versus when he's in the game.

And Halbert Halbert's the only guy who his team is clearly worse when he's off, and they are actually a negative team.

Like, during games when he's playing, when he's on the bench, they have a negative point differential over the course of this season, which is not the case for the other guys.

So the Halberner is the one case where, like, he's clearly a big part of the reason why they're winning, and, clearly, if you take him away, they don't win.

But even with him, we can look at that team and say, this is a really well coached team. This is a really well constructed team.

This is a deep team. This is a team that has different guys who can step up in different situations. But he but I but Haliburton is what his impact if you take him away from that team, that team's probably not snipping the playoffs.

Not true for the other two teams. So and I'm not I'm not saying that to take away from those guys because each of these guys is clearly the superstar of their team.

And SGA is going to win MVP this year for being the best player on a 68 win team. And his net rating when he was on the floor with I mean, just everything about his his season was statistically incredible.

And Brunson, well, great playoff riser. He's had an awesome playoffs again. Not to take away from those guys, but just to say that them coming into a great environment, I think, is a big part of why they're flourishing too.

I love that, and I love how my favorite player on my favorite team is the most overrated player in the NBA.

So, it makes buying his cards more affordable than anyone else. That was a good cold open question. We're gonna continue the playoff, conversation. Wanna talk about playoff risers and cards as a topic.

I'm curious, and I wanna show some sales of some cards, and I just did a filter and card ladder of just some cards that are notable to to talk about, in in this or cards that sold while the playoffs were happening.

The first card, you know, he was hurt. There's been a lot of shade on this guy, but this sale is insane.

So this is the 2019 flawless Darius Garland logo man, one of one rookie. This thing sold on golden for $443,920 on May 8. Also have the SGA Optic Choice black out of eight PSA 10, from Optic, sold for 16,800 on Fanatics Weekly.

And how about even though they just got bounced, he he didn't play, you've got the o nine ten Topps Chrome refractors, classic Curry, rookie card, and a BGS nine five sold on Golden for $40,565.

So using those three just as, examples of playoff, guys whose card sold during the playoffs, you can comment on those sales or just anyone else else, that is currently played or was in the playoffs at some point.

But just curious, like, do you think any performances or what you've seen so far in the playoffs will help, anyone's cards, not, like, right now, but just from a long term perspective.

Maybe we'll start with you, Josh. I've noticed, we don't have, like, the mega superstars left in the playoffs.

The LeBron, Lucas, and Curry is out, Durant's out. So we're kind of now forced to look at, these, like, up and coming players, which I which I think is really exciting for the market.

You know, some of these guys are jockeying for their first finals MVP, which is really exciting. And so we're gonna get a lot of information on the outcome of this season.

I think we're gonna see, you know, like a Brunson or a Halliburton or somebody like that that really emerges and grabs the finals MVP, which is exciting. But other than that, those specific sales are exciting.

40,000 for Darius Garland seems insane to me, but that's exciting for the overall market and cool to see. Do you do you do you track either one of you, do you, like, regularly look at, like, Logoman sales in that market and the prices?

Because, like, I know I there's somebody, The Hobby g posted a Halliburton Logoman one of one Pacers auto on his story. And I think it was, like, something effective, like, these are the cards I'm taking to, the courtside card show.

And my friend, Rodney, at EnjoyCards IG messaged me and was asking, like, what do you think this card is, like, is even worth?

And I told him, I have absolutely no idea because for me as a collector, like, although I know the Logomans are the typically the most expensive cards in basketball, just like that's typically not the profile of card that I'm after.

So I always just focus my attention on something else.

But curious, like, is is that, like, is that that price seems alarming and shocking, but I know those sales are insane. Like, what do you see going on regularly in the logo men market?

Well, I wanted to, the the this is a great thread to tug on here, and I have thoughts on pricing of Logoman and Logoman autos. I wanna throw something back to YouTube really quick on that garland. So that card sold for about $44.

The, the official card title is the twenty nineteen flawless Logoman one of one insert integrated PSA nine. There is no autograph. Does have beautiful, you know, platinum holofoil, nice rookie card badge, nice picture of him.

The blue jersey, like, lining up against the blue holofoil is really nice. But I just wanna ask you guys, like, gut check, is this one of Darius Garland's ten best cards from his rookie year?

Is it close? I for me, you know, it it would I would it would it wouldn't be on my list, and I'd need to, like, think and go through that. Obviously, like, I'd lean towards more shiny, you know, gold vinyl, black.

Those are probably more my cup of tea. But, you know, I just I see this card and, you know, the Logomans get a lot of credit, but the I also like the throwback jersey he's wearing, which is cool.

I just, like I would think that this card might if this card had, like, an autograph on it and there was the pairing of the Logomans and the autograph, then I'm, like, okay.

Maybe then, but this card probably wouldn't be on my list. Same. It's his highest sale by three x, though.

His second highest sale is $15 for a gold shimmer rookie PSA 10. Yes. Like, another sale that happened four days before that one is Russell Westbrook's twenty fourteen National Treasures colossal Logoman Auto numbered to three.

But there was, like, some social media posting about how this card was redeemed recently. Like, Russ finally signed these or something.

But this Logoman autograph Russ, out of three in an OKC jersey, sold for 48,000, through Fanatics Weekly, you know, like, not long I mean, when you look at Logoman Autograph sales, prepare for your mind to melt because the prices that these cards command are staggering.

You know? Do like, the most recent Logoman sale over $10 is a 2012 n t Duane Wade.

It's a Logoman with a sticker autograph, and it's sold for $15. But here's the catch. There's four of them. It's numbered to four. These they're like, the the prices paid on logo man autographs are just staggering.

Dude, D Wade's second highest sale of all time in card letter is him wearing a Bulls jersey because it has a logo man and an autograph of the Bulls. Yeah. Exactly. So so what, what is causing this?

Because the prices are so high that it's really hard for casuals. Even if, like, you're aggressive and you're getting into cars and you got money, it's it's really hard to see with these prices, like, people just casually competing.

Like, to me, this screams that, like, there's a group or and I'm not saying, like, it's necessarily, manipulated or coordinated, but there's just, like, a few people battling out for these cards.

That would be my thoughts, and maybe this is a overseas thing too where you've got that competition.

But I don't know. I'm not is I'm not involved in this, and I'm just like an outsider, but, like, what is causing these prices to be what they are?

Well, how about this, one more, and then I'll answer your question. Shay Gilgeous Alexander, twenty two twenty three immaculate logo man autograph, one of one hundred and ten thousand two months ago for that.

That's not a first year OKC. That's just an immaculate logo man autograph from Gilgeous Alexander's fifth season.

Hundred and ten thousand. So that was in March. So, you know, the these it like, I have, I've broken my brain a number of times trying to understand logo man autograph prices.

But, I do know a few people who buy these, and, you know, for some of the highest profile players in the sport, they spend 6 figures regularly to pick up one of these.

So, I mean, even like this SGA is shocking of a price as that is. Some of the more collected players have their their version of that card would go for two or three times that.

So I, you know, I think Asia is this is such as you know, this is just the most annoying cop out answer ever when it's like a basketball card that's expensive and you don't have any other answer.

Like, well, it's Asia. You know? But I think it's Asia.

I I think, like, Asia is really a driving force behind these. I think they love the logo man autographs and yeah. I mean, these cards just do unbelievable prices. I, yeah. It's it's just you when you start to, like, do the math on okay.

Well, there it's not like there's just, like, they they pick, like, the top five players and do Logomans of the top five players, and so then there's only five cards in, like, one set.

Like, there there are multiple sets, and there's a lot of different players. And you just look, and all of the prices are crazy. And it's just it just I'm like, how does this continue to sustain?

It's just and I look at it, and I'm like, this should because this is the top end, should this indicate that the that the basketball card market and the hobby is really healthy?

But I never come to that conclusion that, like, oh, we're in a great place because logos of, you know, second year cards or whatever this Shay is are selling for a hundred and 10,000, and that's where the big disconnect is for me. Yeah.

You'll just, you'll knock yourself out if you just type in logo man and, you know, put the use the Boolean search where you put in parentheses and spell it a few different ways and just, like, set the search you know, set the filter to be 10,000 or more, and then, you know, you'll just stumble in all types of stuff.

Like, I just like, from March second of this year, '20 '20 '1, NT colossal, Dirk Nowitzki, logo man. No autograph. $11. That's a post playing days card.

Just it's just a logo man in the NT colossal set, insert set. Yeah. Well, I mean, you'll just you will be scrolling all day just seeing things that just one, you know, will blow your mind more than the next, more than the next.

So The the most expensive publicly sold Michael Jordan card, who's known as, like, the goat of everything, the goat of cards, the goat of collectibles is a non playing days Logoman card.

Yeah. You would think it's like a one on one masterpiece or a green PMG or something like this, which it could be if it hit the market.

A lot of it's timing. But, I mean, publicly right now, the highest sale of all time is the Michael Jordan Logoman from o three ultimate.

It's not even the premier product. Maybe one more on the logo man topic, and then we'll move on. Do do you guys are way bigger into basketball and basketball card collecting than I am.

Do you think that these logo men cards not only should be the most valuable cards in ultra modern yeah. I guess that's that's my question. Do you think that these are the cards that should be the cards? I'll take a stab at it first.

I think one of the things that makes it appealing to overseas collectors in particular, who often are some of the most aggressive passionate collectors, is that the Logoman piece, this the the the actual memorabilia piece put in the card combined with the autograph gives multiple levels on which this card was handled and touched and connected to the player.

And that means more to overseas players overseas collectors, I've learned, because they have no practical opportunities to watch these guys play games or to shake their hand at a at a meet and greet or to, you know, go to their, charity events.

I mean, they just have no real ways to connect or see these players.

I know, like, some of the Michael Jordan collectors that I've known for many years, some of their fondest memories and connections to Michael Jordan and Kobe are just like when those guys came overseas for some sort of promotional tour or to play some exhibition game or something, and they went.

And it just means a ton that they were able to touch their shoulder or something. And and and so I can acknowledge that. I can appreciate that.

I can see why that appeal of these cards combined with the one of one nature of them, combined with the continuity of them that in an era where we have lots of complicated products and checklists that there's there's a real through line here that, hey.

This car is a logo, man. It has an autograph, and it has this really nice, classy looking, simple, elegant design.

Like, okay. This is this is what I want. This is what I like. This is what I'm gonna pursue. But I operate having said that and acknowledge that point of view, I operate pretty opposite from that.

I I don't get overly excited about if the player touched the card or if it's a piece a sweaty piece from their jersey. I just I don't get, that that personally doesn't activate any of the collecting genes for me.

What I get really excited about are the shiny cards, you know, which probably comes from my connection to nineties collecting and how influential that was on me.

So even though I don't do it that way and I wouldn't have these cards as my centerpieces of my collection, I do see how especially overseas collectors do.

Close this out, Josh. What are your thoughts? Same. The it seems like there's some lingering, influence and nostalgia from just, like, Exquisite in general.

Exquisite being the first to kind of usher in this type of card and really make it popular. And there's a lot of collectors in Asia that that love the exquisite stuff, and so they're kinda moving it forward.

And now we've got this improvement on those with the logo man and, like, the continuity and history of, like, the one zero one logo man's, and it's a very clean, organized lineage that we have set up now.

And it just you know, it makes a lot of sense looking at it. And, again, personally, I would prefer the shiny stuff, but I I I also collect LeBron exquisite, so I definitely get it.

Okay. Let's we gotta spend a second here, and this feels like the appropriate time because the, you know, the news is starting to bubble up in on what might happen in rumor mill.

We gotta talk about one of the best players in the league, and that's Giannis.

I I'm curious on your end. For first of all, like, what do you guys think after what you saw at the end of this year? What do you think happens next with Giannis and from a a basketball perspective?

And then take that to his cards Because I think we hear this narrative so often in the hobby. It's like, when you've got championships, MVPs, like, your cards are safe. Like, that helps protect your cards.

But I don't know. Like, there's so many different variables, and I think, like, changing of teams and sceneries might give your card those cards a bump for a minute. But then that also maybe negatively impact a player's legacy.

I mean, we've seen that with Durant where Durant's a great player, but I think one of the Knoxes. Right? He's been around, and he's, you know, trying to chase a championship in different spots.

So big question, what happens next with Giannis and Giannis' cards? Josh, take it. Well, Giannis has one of the more glaring, index drops in card ladder that we measure. He peaked, according to the card ladder index.

His value peaked at a 59,000, and now it's at 32,000. So a drop of about 80% from peak. Durant's looks pretty similar, but they're definitely and the peak was in 2022, which is around the time he won the championship.

You know? So there's a there's probably a sense of he's got the championship. He's got the MVPs. This is a a safe time to your point. This is a safe time to buy, and I don't have to worry about it.

But this just keeps happening over and over with every player. Like, over time, people just move on to the younger guys. You know, he got his one ring, and then, you know, he hasn't been in the spotlight for, you know, three years now.

He hasn't he's been in contention for MVPs, but he he's been getting hurt in the playoffs and just hasn't made any noise in the playoffs.

So people are just like, oh, I guess I'll move on to, you know, Shay or whoever. And so I don't know how much more can go down given that he's already has, two MVPs and a finals MVP.

He's already a pretty established historical player, top 20 all time or whatever. So, I mean, for me to just say, like, it's gonna keep getting worse, it's hard to say because it's already come down so much.

The point there that, Josh made that I'm gonna repeat is that there are players such as Durant and Giannis who are the unfortunate, victims of peaking during the pandemic. Mhmm.

So they would have already had big peaks because of just natural hype, but, like, there was also their indexes and card prices got punished are getting punished now relative to where they peaked at because the their all time highest hype levels were happening when the most amount of reckless spending was also happening in the hobby.

And the the what what that what happens there is that there are people who will look at that index or will look at the prices, and it'll be like, man, this Giannis RPA was $200, and now it's 40.

Like, I just you know, that scares me. I that that really, like, is a turn off to some people that, when they see how big of a drop off it's been, it's just like, this is this is doomed.

You know? This is toxic. But there's also other people, I think, who just kinda patiently wait and will try to decide, like, well, once this is fully burned off all of its excess energy and it's bottomed out.

And now there can get there and some new momentum might be possible here, and I I don't have the risk of, like, taking a a a loss and buying on the way down, trying to catch a falling knife.

There are there are people who are who are waiting to to hop in too.

So, but but, yeah, I I think, like, I I think it's it's it's it's even more scary when people look at their prices because of the pandemic compounding the hype. Do you guys remember this, black mosaic sale during the pandemic?

Golden, $1,100,000. Dude, I remember, like and I was trying to find my footing, but I remember the sale happening. And I don't have the experience or expertise that I do regarding, you know, what I like and what I buy.

But I remember seeing this sale, and this was, like, the one sale that this made me believe at the time that if you picked the right player at the right time at the beginning and got one of his best cards, you could be a millionaire.

And I look back on this now, and while this card rules I mean, it's got the mosaic pattern. It's unique. I'm sure it looks incredible in hand.

This card, I think, in and of itself, selling on golden December fourteenth '20 '20 probably gave false hope to a whole lot of people during this era. Yeah. I'll do Anthony Davis searches top sale. A million dollars for Anthony Davis.

There's definitely this, there's definitely this, tier of player that's, like, below the LeBrons and Currys that went way up because people thought they could capitalize on any all star level player during the pandemic, and then all of those guys' indexes just got absolutely wrecked.

Oh, god. Card ladder value on this one's, sold for a million 228 k, which I mean, if this card went up for auction right now, what do you think it would go for?

I mean, we just talked about logo, man. 75. 15 70 5. Something like that. Shay sold for 200. Yeah. Yeah. I've Brett, Brett, I want you to, continue the thought.

So you were saying that, there was there was a real shininess, glossiness surrounding that Giannis prism black mosaic one of one sale because it was like you know, I mean and there were, like, blowout posts at the time of I remember there was a blowout post of a guy who was, like, a teacher who had bought, like, much of the prism Giannis rainbow, and then he sold it.

And he actually, like, sold it about a year or two too early, and then he got maybe, like, $50 or something for the Giannis prism gold.

And, like, a year or two later, it's going for, like, $500 for Giannis prism gold. And so there's there, you know, there's, like, all these sort of stories and narratives that naturally present themselves.

It's not like anybody came to us and just, like, said it. It's like, no. We're surveying the market. We're surveying collectors. We're seeing what people are saying, and it's like, man. Like, this guy had the right player.

And if you just kind of get the right player and you get their great card and, like, there's just gonna be this awesome peak and this everybody's gonna wanna collect this player, and there's gonna be this great moment.

And then that passed.

And so now I wonder where are you because because I'll tell you this, and then I and I wanna hear, like, you you finished the threat, complete the thought of I I still look at that Giannis mosaic prism black one of one, and it still just stirs something in me.

I still see that card. I'm just like, whoo.

That is one of the best cards Panini ever made. That is a really awesome card. But I also completely get the idea that, like, yeah, the luster of this being this big big, you know, exciting 7 figure card is has been lost.

Although it's really nice that we never saw that card come up for sale again. I think that adds to its appeal. That helps build the appeal back up.

But but where are you at now with it in 2025 when we're, what, four or five years removed from that sale? What is still the appeal or the lesson or the sentiment that you currently hold toward that card?

I I number one, I'll always view Giannis as, probably slight he'll be I got Mahomes in terms of the Panini all time Mount Rushmore, but Giannis is on that list.

And if I think about, like, this hobby is built so much on prospecting and hype cycles, and I think about the opportunity in of of buying Giannis when he was nobody and then, like, you know, his card soaring in value and riding that wave.

And that's so much about why the hobby is what the hobby is is for moments like Giannis.

I it's funny. It's like, oftentimes, we talk about these sales and we laugh like that Anthony Davis, and it's just crazy. But, like, I I don't know.

Like, part of me still thinks that that Giannis card is worth that money. Number one, because, you know, it the last few years are post championship, like, from a team perspective haven't been the yes best for Giannis.

And, you know, as being as a Pacers fan, I feel very fortunate for that. But it's undeniable how great of a player he is.

One of the all time most dominant players. Like, it it he's just, one of one. And so I have a ton of respect and admiration for his ability because I don't think in our lifetime we'll see another player quite like Giannis.

And so I match that with this card, and you've got the the the the black mosaic, which is not something you had seen again in Prism. But we as football card collectors and the black finite know how gorgeous these cards are.

They're mesmerizing. And maybe too, it's the nostalgia. Like, I remember listening to a podcast, and I maybe it was you you guys or I can't remember.

But I for whatever reason, I have this memory of being at my parents' house, and I was walking in their neighborhood going on a, like, going on a walk, and the conversation was about this sale and this card.

And, like, those moments, like, got me really excited as someone who's getting back into the hobby and, like, you know, doing content and buying cards.

So for whatever reason, I have a lot of nostalgia for that card. So it's crazy, but I still think this card is probably worth close to that. And I think maybe the the most important reason why is because we haven't seen it again.

Like, it's it's somewhere we don't even know, and it's in someone's collection. And the fact that it hasn't been flipped around on auction houses every other year, I think, makes it more appealing.

What do you think? Yeah. Well, what how awful would it be if, like, next week we get the announcement that, Dick's Sporting Goods is opening a new Milwaukee store, and this card was the centerpiece to promote it.

And then, you know, and it's like, oh, that's why I didn't sell.

No. I I think that card's really, really cool. You know, and I also think, just like the nineties has collectors and just like the two thousands has collectors, you have guys who who just love collecting PMGs and rubies.

You have guys who just love collecting the exquisite and the ultimate collection and all the great stuff, Topps Chrome stuff from the February.

And then I think the twenty tens are gonna have collectors just the same, and there's gonna be a lot of nostalgia for this era. And when people look back and say, man, you know, yeah. I remember Prism.

I remember all these great brands in this era. And, like, what's the best Prism cards? You know? Just like people ask what are the best exquisite cards? What are the best logomans? What are the best rubies? What are the best PMGs?

And this card is gonna be at the very top of the list of of best Prism cards ever made. And I'd be if I was sitting here listening to this podcast and I own this card, you know, I'd just be like, oh, man. I'm glad I own this card.

I this is, you know, whatever the short term fluctuations are regarding Giannis and sentiments and the Bucks and how that feels a little bit hopeless right now, that's still one of the best cards, to ever come out of a prison box.

Let's let's kick it over to I wanna hit this topic with you because I've been thinking a lot about it, but just like player PCs and what happens when the chase slows down and maybe, like, navigating player PCs.

And I think, something I've observed in my own collecting and just in conversations with the other, like, on from a player PC perspective, there's like this, there's this emotional side with player collecting where it's like when the chase slows down, we begin as collectors start to lose, like, the thrill, and we begin to maybe, question our identity as that player collector.

Like, it's like, oh, just because I'm not finding cards or buying cards, does that make me less of a Peyton Manning collector?

And then there's, like, the analytical side too where it's like you're tracking the market over time and you begin to realize, like, opportunity costs.

Like and I've been saying this a lot with, like, members in my Peyton chat where it's like, yeah. That like, some of the cards that, like, are out there that cost a certain amount, like, it, like, just doesn't match.

Like, the price and, like, the appeal to me is just a little bit off. And maybe this is because, like, I consider myself maybe a more ultra modern collector than anything else.

It's kind of what excites me the most. But I wanted to, like, throw that out. It's like, have you all experienced the the kind of the chase slowing down on a player PC?

Like, what happens when you own all the cards you want? Like, do you shift? Do you stop collecting that player altogether? Maybe, like, pull on this topic. I'd love to kinda dig into how you think about it.

Josh. Yeah. I mean, I'm going through it right now with LeBron. I haven't bought a LeBron card, and I can't think of any significant LeBron card I bought in, like, a year, I would say, which I think is okay.

I don't think you need to do anything drastic and sell it off the whole PC just because you're not adding to it.

I think it's okay to kind of solidify it, put it aside for a time, and maybe revisit it when when Topps comes back. For example, maybe there'll be a a super fracture that piques my interest or something like this.

I don't know. But then I just shift to football. You know? I'm just focused on football, and, I'm not very good at doing two things at once with collecting.

So I'm okay with just focusing on the football grails that I'm after. And then if I get bored of that, I'll pair it down probably and do the do the same thing with something else potentially.

I want you to hit on that because I feel that, and I've never talked about it where it's like, this is probably not the right time for me to do this.

But because I'm so excited about the Pacers in Halliburton, so much of my other collecting has taken a back seat. And now all I wanna do is focus in on my Halliburton collection, and it's like blinders on everything else.

Like, it could be, like, the best Colts car that I've been after forever, and I would, although I'd be interested, I would be way less interested than I would if I wasn't so focused on Halliburton.

So why do you think we, like, aren't able to and maybe some collectors out there are able to it, but it's like we only have so much focus.

Like, why do you think we we kinda shift our focus and the our money, like, one minute and then maybe, like, months later, we shift it? Like, is that do you think that's normal? Maybe talk a little bit more about that.

Yeah. You're just a human, Brett. I don't think, I don't think it's too unreasonable to, as a human to just wanna focus on what's exciting at the moment. You know, we see it all the time with, I wouldn't say you're falling for the hype.

I said I would just say that, like, that's what's currently going on in your in your mind and you're excited about it, and you might as well just, like, double down and enjoy this moment versus, like, you know, find if you put your financial hat on, it's it's like, oh, I should probably wait three years for, like, this window of this Pacers team to close and then go back and buy all those Halliburton cards.

But you wouldn't be as excited about it. Mhmm. And and you probably wouldn't be able to build up as nice of a PC because your, you know, your level of excitement is what's holding you back.

So I said I said go for it. Chris, a lot has been said already on this topic. What are your thoughts? I wanna add thoughts about what you're going through with Halberton right now.

So a lot of big Halberton cards, especially from his rookie year, are either coming to market right now or have come to market in the last few days, last few weeks.

The chief example of this being his rookie year, Prism Black, which is at auction right now, and that's just such a sweet card.

And if I was a true believer in Halliburton as a collector, there's not a chance in hell I'd be selling that card right now.

This is to your sort of narrative point, this is the best time it's ever been to be a Tyrese Haliburton collector.

What could be more fun than this? What could be more fun than this guy, like, winning multiple games on game winning three pointers and, like, she's having an amazing, amazing run.

And so the the thought that I had that I jotted down is that flippers and investors like to sell into the beginning of success.

And sometimes that can create a perfect storm where the collector just absolutely dominates and kicks their asses and wins all day.

Now they're making a bet. They're making a calculated bet, which is, hey. Look. You know, I have these awesome Halliburton cards. I was waiting for an opportunity where I could sell these and make a profit or move on.

And, wow, look at this. They're going to the final four. So this is a great time for me to do it. You know, people in the media are really warming up to them. There's this great narrative surrounding this team.

You know, Let's this is a great time to sell into the beginning of success because for all I know, they're gonna lose in the conference finals or something else is gonna go bad or they're never gonna get back here again.

And guess what? Like, if there's if they're doing that for, like, 10 different superstars and those 10 different superstars are all in different teams, only one of those superstars is actually gonna have the fairy tale ending.

So nine out of 10 times, they're gonna be right to sell into the beginning of success. But one out of 10 times, they're gonna be wrong.

And if the Halberd situation is the time when they're wrong, then, you know, we're gonna have like, just like the guy who sold the Sheik Il jus Alexander prism black last year around this time, and it went for about $200, and the card letter value on that now is around $800.

And the reality is that if it if that if it came to market today, it might even do more. You know, they're the they they're gonna be wrong every once in a while too.

And so you can get this perfect storm where you have real authentic collector energy, Pacer fan energy, Halborn fan energy, where it's like, dude, this is an awesome ride. All I can think about is this this moment.

I wanna add as many cards this guy as I can. I'm bringing all my collecting knowledge that I've accumulated over all the years to be able to pinpoint the cards and the stuff that I like and that I want.

And it and it could be this perfect storm where they're selling into the beginning of success, and you as the passionate fan collector are buying into the beginning of success.

And if the success unfolds the way that the Pacers fan and the Halliburton fan is hoping, then the collector ends up smashing them and and winning by by multiples. So, you know, you love to see when that you you love to see that happen.

Right? Like, when when collectors can get a win just by naturally acting like collectors and just buying cards when they're interested in them, and it and it works out.

The this we could have done a whole episode on this this topic. Dude, because we're seeing this card, I have in my brain have said this whole time, all of these people are betting against Halliburton by put making their cards available.

That's all I've been thinking about, but I haven't been able to say it. Maybe as we close this out and move on, April we talked we started this episode by talking about Halliburton, Brunson, SGA.

How big of a difference does it make for that player's cards, collectability, and demand for a young player like one of those three to go to the finals and and win?

Does did you think that cements them, like, in terms of, like, all time, like, collectability?

Like, they're always have collectors because of that is, like I guess the question I'm asking is, like, how big is that for one of those three players this year?

Given that those three guys were probably unexpected to win the championship I mean, Shay, maybe might have been expected, but given the unexpected nature of, specifically, Halliburton, I think that would really be a boon to their long term collectability.

You know, like, Halliburton coming out and winning finals MVP this year is a pretty unexpected event that would really solidify him.

But the, you know, the flip side is we just talked about Giannis. He won a championship, and we're and we're seeing his card values decline a bunch.

So I I don't think it's wise to say winning this championship for one of those three guys keeps them on this, like, MJ slow up the right trajectory forever.

It's probably more of, like, a short term boost, and then there'll be some bets on next year immediately that, hey.

They're probably not gonna do this again, and then you'll see the Janus effect where it starts to to dribble downwards. But but it But the the Halliburton one stands out because it's just so unexpected.

Is is is the MJ, like, they're gonna hit the MJ market? If if if it's Anthony Edwards who wins it and is it the final MVP, is is it a different story? Because he's got someone we have not talked about, and Chris is smiling.

So I wanna make sure, like, we we put Anthony Edwards in this conversation. We are not talking about him because he started his career in Minnesota, and we picked those players because they didn't start in their respective markets.

But does is there any difference if it's Anthony Edwards? For the media? Sure. But, like, the actual smart people are gonna analyze his career five years from now and see. He has zero first team all MBAs.

He has zero MVPs. So, like, him winning a finals MVP would definitely help, but I put him on the same tier long term as his other three guys you mentioned. I mean, he's he's probably a step below them, to be honest.

Chris, you gotta have words. Yeah. But he's got that dog in him. But he does have the dog. Yeah. He's also he's like he's one of the guys like, Tyrese Halberd is not at risk of losing finals MVP to a teammate.

It would be a very unusual situation if that were to happen. Jalen Brunson, probably not at risk of losing finals MVP to a teammate.

Shay Galleg Shay Gilgeous Alexander, not at risk of losing finals MVP to a teammate. If those guys get to the finals and their team wins, it's they're it's overwhelmingly that those guys are gonna be finals MVP.

If Anthony Edwards gets to the finals, there's gonna be a real competition between him and Julius Randle based on how the playoffs have gone so far for who is the finals MVP.

And then you also can just have a a a Rudy Gobert, like, game five against the Lakers. Twenty four season that would be? 24 rebounds. I mean, that that that team is much more egalitarian and can result in a lot of different outcomes.

But okay. So to your point about, like, well, what how much could you solidified if a finals MVP is won by one of those three guys this year? Let me quickly give you the last 20 finals MVPs, and you're gonna notice a wide range here.

You're gonna you're gonna notice some guys who, like, those finals MVPs, they piled up and they solidified them, and you're gonna notice other guys who are like, finals MVP didn't really mean that much of their collectibility.

So going backwards from 2024, last twenty years, Jaylen Brown, Nikola Jokic, Stephen Curry, Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Kevin Durant, Kevin Durant, LeBron, Iguodala, Kawhi, LeBron, LeBron, Dirk, Kobe Kobe, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade, Tim Duncan.

There's a wide range of possibilities there.

There's you you you have a range of possibilities from Tony the the Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade, Paul Pierce, Andre Iguodala, Jaylen Brown, sort of, like, these guys didn't get to the same level collectability wise as LeBron, Stephen Curry, Kobe.

You know? Like, I mean, those those names when you hear them on the finals MVP list, like, those are those are guys who are, like, on the Mount Rushmore of collecting.

Those are probably three to four faces for basketball, arguably. So, you know, there's just there's a really wide range of out there.

You you have the Kawhi, you know, where it's just like, what do who nobody really knows what to think about Kawhi because there's just so many weird contingencies to his career.

So wide range of possibilities here. I don't think one finals MVP is a make or a break situation. How many times did you say Curry's name?

That that was, I think that was one. One out of four. That's devastating. Oh, okay. This was this is this has been fun. Well, I'm gonna move us forward first before we'll probably, you know, do some modifications because we always do.

Is there any do you guys have any acquisitions or new cards that you wanna talk about before we move to the final question?

Oh, yeah. Okay. Let's see them. We're we've come prepared. I can't remember if I showed this one last night. So if I did, just stop me immediately. 2014, Davante Adams black prism one zero one. Did I show that one?

You didn't. You posted it. I don't think you showed it. That card is freaking incredible. '20 '20 '14 black finite's my favorite of all Panini prism era. '20 '14 receiver class, Odell, Mike Evans, Adams. That's an incredible card.

And you you was that Prism mic PC you made a deal with? Yes. And the Mike Evans has six variations of this. Five variations, six total images. So and and Adams has just the one. So that's an important distinction.

I didn't realize he just had the that's that makes that card. Right. So 2014, they picked, I believe, 10 players that were important enough to get six variations of it, and it was, like, Manziel and I think, Blake Bortles?

Yeah. It's like a couple of quarterbacks and then Mike Evans. And because Evans was, like, a top 10 pick and Adam was later for later, second round, I believe. And then Aaron Donald has just the one, and I have that one as well.

So he doesn't have any rations. The other one is I got in the mail yesterday, 2022 Prism Black Finite Jamar Chase. So this is the second year card, PSA 10. God. That looks good.

I like the white jersey. Congrats on those pickups. Chris, you got anything? No. I don't. Hopefully, next month, it'll be here. Awesome. Yes. I'm I'm I've not asked you or bothered you, and I'm very curious on what this part is.

Oh, we're on the homestretch. The card made it from China to a Fanatics vault, and now I'm just, waiting for that waiting for that tracking number so I can come on home to me.

Beautiful. Hey, Josh. I wanna let's close out by you presenting your question, and then we'll get out of here. But this was a good one, and I I wanna dig into this before we end this episode.

Sure. It's based on this Jamar Chase PSA 10. I was thinking, what is the, like, value difference of a card like this given that it's a one of one and it's a PSA 10 versus if it was a PSA eight?

Like, because Davante Adams is a PSA eight and then Jamar Chase is a PSA 10. I don't know that as an individual collector, it really matters that much, but I do find myself, enjoying the PSA 10 a bit more than I thought I would.

It just adds, like, a little bit extra. And the the the discussion is mainly around, like, do you wish it was a PSA eight so that you as a collector could get that one on one card for cheaper?

And how much are how much would you be willing to spend extra if you, you know, you don't have a choice. There's only one of them, and it happens to be a PSA 10.

Are you willing to fork over an extra 25 to 30% over the PSA eight? And where does your cutoff is it, like, if it's a PSA authentic, one of one, does that bother you enough to actually not even pursue it at all?

I just I'm just kind of interested in this because there's a lot of what I would say is, like, pretty boring content running.

Oh, it's a one on one. Who cares? And that's, like, what what those types of people think collectors wanna hear. Oh, it's just, you know, it's a one on one. I wouldn't even slab it.

Like, you know, as a collector, it's just the one on one. But I do think there is a bit of extra intrigue of the PSA ten one zero one for me specifically, and I think we see it with pricing that people actually do want it more.

My feedback is my ideal scenario is to acquire a finite raw. I I like, that's my ideal scenario, over anything else, and I wanna be the one in control of the grading process.

And do I want a 10? Of course, I want a 10, but, ultimately, it doesn't matter. I can tell you this on the selling side because I went through a purge of my Roman Reigns, wrestling collection of selling a bunch of one of ones.

And I was astounded by the premium that the PSA 10 lesser cards of PSA tens got of one of ones, like, second year of a select product, as opposed to, like, the first year in different levels. Like, the premium was out of control.

And so as a as a as a seller, if I have a a PSA 10 of a premium one of one parallel that is not in my collection forever, like, that card, I'm 100% confident is going to do probably always better than I anticipate because of that perfect marriage between, like, premium parallel and PSA 10.

But, you know, I always hope and this happened, this happened with a card recently where I found out that it got a 10, and I was like, that took me out of the ballgame on this card, and it did.

And it was just outside of my price range. So, yeah, I to me, like, as a collector, of course, I want the PSA 10. But as the buyer, I'm hoping that it's raw as a seller.

That's the crazy part is if it's not, like, attached to my collection and I've got a PSA 10 of a, a premium parallel because I've experienced selling that and seen what it can do, that's always staring me in the eyes.

It's like, man, I could get this and go put it into a card I want more. But I think it's an interesting topic, and, you know, it kind of varies case by case and card by card, but, that's kinda my mindset.

Chris, what do you think? Yeah. I mean, to put a final thought on this, I I know exactly what you mean when you say that the PSA 10 can elevate a lesser card into a higher market result.

What like, when like, with some of those Roman Reigns or, like, I I have so one card that I own is the twenty twenty three optic gold vinyl one of one Luca, which I purchased on eBay raw, and I graded at the national.

I got a PSA 10. Very cool. I have a friend in the hobby who owns the twenty twenty two optic gold vinyl one zero one Luca graded in a PSA nine. He wants mine because he has the Kyrie.

He's like a Mavs collector. He has the Kyrie from 2023. He wants to pair the Luca and the Kyrie together, and he's offering me the 2022, which is a year earlier, PSA nine straight up for my PSA 10.

And I know that because mine is a PSA 10, buddy, you are way off. Yes. And it and so, you know, like, that's the perspective altering.

You know, if I was on the other side of this, I'd be like, what do you mean, man? Any other one of ones and mine's from you earlier? Mine's a slightly better card. And there may be some truth to that. There there is some truth to that.

But when we have to duel in the marketplace Yes. That PSA 10 on that card, it adds so much value. Should it? I it doesn't to me personally as a buyer, but like you said, as a seller, you you can't deny it.

I also think of the the event that occurs when you have the raw card of a one on one and you take it to PSA and you're like, I don't care what grade it gets.

I really don't. Come on, guys. I don't care. You're telling your friends. You're building it up. You're just setting in your mind, like, when this gets a seven, I will be happy.

Yes. Then it gets a seven and you're like, mother. You know? I and if you get the 10, you're running around the show, you're going to national show in your but I got a 10.

Of course. You're more excited. Of course. Give give me the six or seven over the authentic any day, though. Of course. Yeah. I I thought the authentic might be a cutoff for some it it might be for me.

Like, I'm like, get this thing in a five before I buy it. Yes. Yeah. I'll go four. The authentic is just I've, it's like someone's trying to sell an authentic, and they don't even show you the back.

It's like, I just imagine you turn the card around and just, like, the back is just, like, destroyed. Well, I just think that it comes from, like, a flipper who thought, oh, PSA eight, PSA eight minimum on anything.

It doesn't even matter. And it's like, if it's a seven, it'll actually reduce the value authentic. That's how you make a little extra money. And so I it's probably more of that scenario.

Let me let me leave the listeners and the cohost with a final thought that we don't have to answer now, but food for thought. We know that there's a huge PSA 10 premium, and it does exist on one of ones and on best cards.

And, you know, if you had a world where your exact same one on one got a PSA eight, it would sell for less than if it got a PSA 10, maybe by a significant amount.

And, like, there's a lot of reasons for that. We don't have to go into why it works that way right now.

My question is, for those of us like myself who own a 2023 optical vinyl Luca PSA 10, and there is a huge premium in this current market attached to that card because it did grade a PSA 10 as opposed to if it were in raw conditioner at a lower grade, Am I being foolish at all or naive at all by holding on to this card rather than extracting its full market value right now?

Because eventually, at some point, we're going to reach, more of an equilibrium where not taking away anything from the importance of grading and authentication and assessing technical grade, but just saying maybe is there a little bit of a bubble that is impacting on particular cards like one of ones that's just making these PSA tens seem way overvalued right now on a card like that.

Just something to think about. I think this is a good that's a good maybe we dig into that further.

I've got so many thoughts racing on in my head. I love this conversation. I thought there was a lot of organic discussion around, the emotional and analytical side of collecting.

Always appreciate it. And, also, congratulations to both of you guys on, making the crossover a more professional experience moving from Instagram, over to the YouTube machine and then getting the mics and everything.

So as a audio first listener, I always listen into it the day after.

Always never miss it. It this it's I feel like it's like, I feel like you guys, you didn't sell out. I just feel like you've made it to the big leagues. It's like a totally different show a little bit, isn't it?

It is. Yeah. How much better is the audio, Brett? Oh, dude. Dude, there was a time, and I never said this to you, but, like, I would one of the eras, there is be, like I'd hear this, like, click.

It'd be like this subtle, like, clicking. And I'd be like, if I if I didn't love this show, like, I would never listen to this, but I I love the discussion, and I it's a testament to you guys.

Like, I enjoy the content. So I dealt with the clicking, and I'd put it on in the car sometimes. It would, like, feel like it would make one of my speakers explode, but I always listen.

So I just I wanna say thank you, which I'm sure the the crossover listeners, the stacking slab audience, and the crossover audience appreciate it as well, I'm sure.

It's like the smoke detector constantly beeping in the background. Yeah. Thanks. Pubulous. Yeah. Anyways, everyone, thank you for tuning in. Looking forward to doing this again. Talk to you soon.