Alright. We're back. It's been a while scheduling, all these things, but we're back with another round of card ladder confidential.

Wanna start like we typically do where I blindside Josh and Chris with a cold open question that was not on the format, and they have no idea what's coming.

And I'm thinking because I know you guys aren't, like, massive college basketball, fans.

We just spent the last five minutes talking about the NBA before we hit record, but it is the March Madness season. So I'm thinking about, a bracket. I'm think thinking about think about a bracket of your collection.

Like, the maybe it doesn't need to be 64. Maybe it can be 32, whatever. But just think about, like, that bracket in your mind and ranking all the cards matched up against each other.

At the end of all of your cards matched up against each other, what card would stand as the confetti drop as your favorite card in your collection.

And it can be a card that has been a blue blood, a card that you've had forever that you just love.

It can be a card that, like, teams do in the tournament, get a ton of momentum, and all of a sudden you look down at your collection, and you're just like, god.

This card. I know I've had it for, like, a few months, but it's it's my favorite now.

That's what we're starting with. And, Chris, maybe we'll we'll we'll kick it over to you. At the end of your collection bracket, which card in your collection is standing tall?

Great question. I'm gonna artfully buy some time. Are you the person who invented the COQ, the cold open question in podcasting? Did you invent this? I I I did it. I've I I ripped it off.

There's a, I there's a ringer wrestling podcast. David Shoemaker is the host, and he always gives his cohost, Kaz, the cold open question. And then it's something ridiculous along these lines. So I just ripped it off from there.

I love it. I think it's extremely clever, good content, fun for the guest. So it's definitely the first I've ever heard of it in the hobby. So you have imported it into the hobby, and I enjoy the coq or the cock.

Alright. So to answer your cold open question, just like a true March Madness bracket, if you ran the same bracket 10 times, you would get at least five different champions, maybe more.

So I can't really commit to one champion. But I think most of the time when my cards are battling in March Madness, it might be a fluke here or there.

Most of the time, it's gonna be that the MJPMG red on one winning one side of the bracket and the Jokic Prism Black winning the other side, and they're gonna face off in the championship.

And one might win one year, and the other might win a different year. Obviously, those are two just, really big cards, well respected in the hobby, centerpieces based on the way you collect.

Is for you, it like, what is it about those two cards that stand out above the rest? Is it, like, the story of the acquisition, just the prominence of those two cards, something different? I think value plays a role.

They would be the hardest two of the hardest to replace value wise and rarity wise. I think, you know, I mean, the pure answer would ignore value, but I'm just going to be brutally honest and say that's a factor.

I think the player plays a role. I think those are definitely two of my favorite players of all time of any sport, and I've got a connection to both those players is pretty strong.

And then I just, you know, I I love the PMGs. I love the Prism Black. It's just about that simple, I think. Josh, now that you've had plenty of time to come up with your answer, what is your answer?

My biggest pet peeve with the content brackets is that they always just go super chalk because it's like, they're not real games. You're just, like, ranking stuff, and then all the one seeds like, why do we even have this?

So I like the approach Chris took, which is like, I'm not sure. We'll see. I'm gonna do the same thing and randomize it basically and just kinda go off vibes.

So I'm gonna say the finals matchup is gonna be the LeBron o three finest gold and against the Jamar Chase black finite one on one just just to see what happens. You know? He's he's on a streak.

He's got the, you know, he came in as, like, a nine seed or something, and he just hit a really hot streak with the, with the big new contract with the Triple Crown, and he's just riding those vibes all the way to the finals.

It is a good time to be Ja'Marr Chase. That's for damn sure. The o three finest gold, we've had a million conversations over the years.

May what it like, you've you've had you've own you own and you've owned some of the best LeBron cards of all time. What is it about the o three finest gold that you you love and you put it on, like, this higher pedestal?

So when I really got started to get into LeBron collecting, There was a lot of the cards I knew about, like the tops chrome gold, like the RPA stuff you see kind of over and over.

But the finest gold was kind of like a mystery to me. I didn't really know anyone that had it. I hadn't seen one in public. There was one on eBay, I think, for a little while that was, like, beat up and raw.

But I just kinda, like you know, when you're first getting into something new, there's, like, the mystery of cards that you don't know exist, especially, you know, this was, like, five years here or whatever.

There was even more of it because now we just see these cards so quickly. But that card, I saw it at a national in 2019, and the guy just, like, randomly pulled out of a box.

And I was like, holy crap. That's the card that I need. That's, like, my number one right now. That card's amazing. It looks even better in person now that you've shown it to me.

And it took me, like, two years to get it from that seller, but I eventually wore him down and way overpaid probably. Sometimes you gotta overpay for the best cards that are gonna come out your come out of your brackets.

So, what do you all think out there listening? What's your favorite card? I'd I'd love to hear once you, tweeted or not tweet. We don't we don't do we do it? We we might tweet, but post on Instagram or do whatever.

Brad, what's your answer? Oh, that's a good on the spot. The the true cold open question is when it gets turned on to the host. It did it did get turned on to me. I would say my favorite card in my collection is the 2014 Andrew Luck.

Black finite Andrew Luck PSA 10. That card I talked about it. That card was, raw in a showcase in the at the Nashville show, and Grant Waldorf stories messaged me while he was at the show about that card, and I graded it at a guy at 10.

But I I love the twenty fourteen design, And the twenty fourteen black finites, they just, the way they present, they hit, are is just awesome. So that card if all the other cards had to leave, that card would stay for sure.

Yep. I like it. That was where I was leaning. Alright. Let's jump in. Let's start with, any sort of card ladder updates that is happening. Anything that you all wanna share about new product, news, anything. What do you got?

Can I I let me tee one up for Josh because I actually don't think we had a chance to talk about this on the crossover, but it is a it's a cool it's a very quirky, like, subtle feature that maybe most people won't even care care about, but it so it is it has made some people really happy?

Josh built a system that allows the card letter value for any slab to be adjusted to the most recent sale of that particular grade of that card no matter how far back you're looking in sales history, which is which is big because previously, we were using a system where we took the the change in the index since the sale and applied it to the sale.

And that sometimes would give very different predicted prices for sales that are two, three, four, five years old.

Like, this card in PSA nine sold five years ago, and the predicted value is $5. And then it sold three years ago, and the predicted value is 3,500.

And people would be like, why aren't these the same? And we could explain it to them. The reason why they're not the same is because there's variance in pricing. There's noise in pricing data.

No price is perfect. Maybe somebody just bid a little more aggressively five years ago and less aggressively. And so that's why when you apply the change in the index to the price, you get these different results.

But still, it was unsatisfying to be able to get different results. And now Josh built the system so that we've unified the price result that you get.

So whether you're looking at the one five years ago or three years ago, you're gonna get the same result now. And then the other thing on top of that is if the sale is relatively old, this was Chris's idea from a customer as well.

If a sale is really old, we, by default, hide the sale value in the sales history, and we make you click. There's, like, a little Yes.

We just, like, click it. It's like a little eyeball. You click it, and then it'll show you because we really want it to sync in with users like, hey. We're about to show you the number, but just so you know, it's old.

It's got a low confidence. We rely on new sales, and this one doesn't have it. So just be aware before you run around screaming this number. And it's great for screenshot people.

You know, like, you're showing an old one. You may not wanna you may not wanna send the screenshot with the CO value exposed because it's you know, you'd rather just show the comp or whatever. I oh, man. It's so funny.

You add so much stuff that, like, that is something that I've noticed, and I didn't know the reason why that so it is if there's confidence in the like, a lot of confidence in it that you don't have to click, but if it's older data, then you have to click.

Is it as simple as that? It's really it's like, you know how when you're taking notes in class and you write it down and it sticks to your memory better?

This is the same concept. When you click, it sticks to your memory. This is gonna be not as reliable. That's good.

I I I hope that clears up clears that up for anyone listening. That's something that, like, I didn't even ask you about, but I've just naturally been doing myself. And I think one it's one of those things just with tech and product.

It's like, have I I asked myself. It's like, is this something I've always just been doing? That's I think that's a good thing when you're you're just kinda making it part of, your everyday workflow.

I wanna maybe ask you all on if there's anything from, like we talked about AI last time and just why maybe AI wasn't, like, the best fit for what you guys are thinking about and what you're building.

But I wanna maybe con I like this conversation about just, like, tech and the hobby, and I'm just curious, like, is you know, maybe give an example first.

Like, I recently, for the first time, got my cards back from PSA and had the option and opportunity to just send a card directly to eBay to, sell without even touching the card and went through that experience and, like, which was good and realized, like, oh, wow.

Like, I can automate this experience here and, like, that card that just sold just paid for my submission.

And I thought, like, that I know their collect, collectors, and eBay is really focused in on that integration, but I thought that was a really good, enhancement to my overall, hobby experience that I go through on the, set selling grading and selling side.

But I'm curious, like, is there anything that stands out to you, whether something you've used or, you know, something you've seen that you like that is, like, new tech in the hobby?

Start with you maybe, Josh. I do like that feature you called it. I've seen that as well and, like, the greater reveal within the PSA app.

There's nothing else that comes to mind. I admittedly don't use a lot of tech. I'm just so bogged down in what I'm doing. Building? Yeah. It's just like it's not that I don't like the other apps and stuff.

I just don't use them as much because I'm in my own world. I just kept thinking, Brett, you now have a lack of friction. You need to get friction back in your collecting space.

You're we've talked about this, I think. It's like, you guys have talked about this where it's like, you, like, you need these challenges to overcome, and you need these obstacles to make the hobby hard Yeah.

Which which I I agree because, like, if we go too far one way, then all of a sudden, like, we're not even touched.

Like, do we even have cards? Like, they're not even touching our hands, and then, I think, you know, you can over tech for sure. The, the PSA submission, I did a recent submission, and it's, like, way improved.

I've been wanting them to improve that flow for a long time, and it's it's finally, like, a nice simple search box, finds the card, pulls up images to show you.

You confirm how many quantity you have. It's it's much simpler than it used to be. So I do like the PSA submission form flow. It's a lot smoother now. So I I have done that in the last couple weeks. What about you, Chris?

Yeah. Mine is, I was searching eBay last night. I have a ton of saved searches, and one of them is, like, for Jokic one of one cards. And one of the results in the saved search had simply had an item title of sports cards.

No player name, no information about the product or the set or the year. Certainly nothing about one of one. But when I clicked in, it was, it was like a Jokic, optic gold vinyl insert. That was a one of one.

And I have no idea how this, search could have retrieved that except for the fact that there was some sort of maybe, image imaging service that pulled out the one of one that was clearly visible when they showed the backside of the card, and then the front side of the card showed Jokic's name.

And so conceivably, there this search optimization brought this sale into my search results even though the user didn't provide any of the information.

I mean, it literally didn't even say the player's name. It just said sports cards. But, the story does not have a happy ending because the price was 50,000 on what's probably a 400 or $500 card.

So I didn't really hit a home run here, but but I I could I had to I tipped the hats to the, search eBay's improved search function.

That's that's incredible. Shout out image recognition, for finding those. No shout out to, overpriced, sellers on the eBay machine.

Let's let's dive into this topic, which is a this topic has been percolating on in conversations that I've been having, and I think when we're planning this, Chris, you might have said something about it.

But I think this would be fun to talk about.

And this is about, the, maybe, education of cards and letting people know about certain cards, and, like, what's kind of walking what's it's kind of a fine line we have to walk, and so I think we can agree that we don't need multi paragraph story post to help us understand why a card is important that someone is trying to sell.

But, also, like, there is something that is good about people educating about specific cards in the hobby, like, more content about cards is a good thing.

We'll start here maybe with you, Chris. What's the balance between educating people about specific cards? It can be parallels, product sets, and building awareness for these versus pumping.

Maybe, like, what are some of the qualities and characteristics that you've observed one way or the other through Instagram or other channels? Yes. This is a terrific topic. I'm gonna start off by framing my answer in this way.

I think we all have a small level of cringe or cognitive dissonance when we're looking at social media posts that are advertising cards that are for sale and the post is either emphasizing how great the player is or how great the card is or both.

And the cognitive dissonance comes from the fact that if it's so great, if this player is so great, if the card is so great, then why are you selling it?

That's a tension that's inherent anytime any person is trying to sell their card and they're trying to tell you how great it is. That's the question that always comes to mind.

And there are answers to that question that satisfy it. You know, maybe I have to sell this card because I have to pay a medical bill or my bill or some other bill is due or I'm consolidating into a better card or so on and so forth.

But in no matter what the event is, ultimately, this person has a better use for the money than the card. So you can never really totally relieve the tension of, if it's so great, why are you taking its money equivalence?

It can't be that it can't be that great. You have a better use for the money. So that that that's always just even if we don't, like, fully flesh out that thought process, I think it it occurs in a lot of us when we look at that.

It just it, it doesn't create the desired effect that the seller wants either. Like the seller wants you to be really excited and go bid on their card.

And instead you're like, why are you selling it that again? It, it, it, it really kind of turns you off to a card when you see somebody like actively selling a card. It's, you know, it's like they're dumping it.

They they they're they're getting rid of it. It makes it less desirable, from on some, like, psychological level. When you see somebody getting rid of something, it doesn't make you want it more.

Makes you question why they're getting rid of it. But, I do think there are ways to thread the needle on this. And, I don't know if, I don't know if it matters how lengthy the explanation is.

Usually, I think that's a pretty good heuristic, like the less you have to say about it, the better. But I think it comes, it comes down to separating the way that we talk about cards, especially ones that we're selling.

But even ones that we're collecting too, separating that discussion into whether we're giving people facts or whether we're giving people opinions.

Opinions are when we summarize a card and say, this card is great. It's awesome. It's gonna go up. It's a good place to put your money. These are all opinions.

These are summaries that, that I if if I'm the person's side and I say, this card is so great, you should buy it, that's a summary. I'm summarizing for you my interpretation of what the facts of this card said, and I should avoid that.

Instead, I just wanna give you the facts. I just wanna tell you the facts of the card. And so I'll give you, like, an example of how this might work.

So, like, last week, Josh, I I just, like, randomly messaged Josh, and I was like, you know, I know everybody doesn't really like the select black die cut one of one, but I'm I'm coming to the opinion that it's, like, one of my favorite Panini Caraels.

I just love it.

I know nobody else likes it, and I'm and I'm good in that lane. I like I I'm fine with things that way. Maybe there's something I you know, something has caused me to like this thing that would be but, anyway, that's beside the point.

After I said that to him, I started being like, let me really show him why I like this so much. So I started going and looking at pictures of all the different ones, like, pulling pictures.

I'm like, look. Don't these look cool? And and the thing that that prompted me to say it to him was I was looking at an auction, and I was scrolling through all the cards and, like, I was, you know, well, whatever whatever.

And then I saw the Saquon twenty eighteen Select Black Die Cut one of one. I was like, that just caught me in my tracks.

They those cards always just freeze me. Well, anyway, as I was looking through the results, I I kept going down and down, and I actually found the '20 '14 select black die cut one zero one Steph Curry.

I saw I found a purchase of it from, like, ten years ago. And the picture is in there because it was through PWCC, and they had images going way back. So I had this image of this card.

And let's use this card as an example if because I'm not a Steph Curry collector. I do love the parallel. Let's say I bought that card, and then I was gonna sell it. Here is how I would talk about that card.

Even though I love this parallel, I'm not gonna say this is the greatest parallel. You need this parallel. People are sleeping on this parallel. I'm not gonna say that because it's not true, among other reasons.

Or at at best, it's just subjectively true. It's just me voicing my opinion on things. Things. But instead, what I would say, this is the 2014 Select black die cut Curry.

It's a one of one. It's from twenty fourteen Select, which is the first year that basketball made the Select premier level, and it's the first year that Select made the black die cut one of one.

And then here's a picture of it. And now I've just given you the facts. These are the facts of the card.

And then the the viewer can decide if they care about that or not. If they don't care that it's the first select black one on one, if they don't care about Steph Curry cards, if they don't care about anything that I've said, move along.

Like what Dave Cornoy says when he posts a political rant. If you don't wanna hear this, keep it moving. Keep the line moving. And by the way, I do keep that line moving.

I don't listen to those. I hate those. Same thing here. Keep the line moving. Alright. I'm just gonna give you the facts. I'm I'm not gonna put my opinion on it. I'll just give you the facts, and then we'll go from there.

So that's my and and if there is a paragraph's worth of facts, great. That's that's interesting. But but I'm just gonna keep it to the facts. I'm not gonna tell you it's great or why it's undervalued.

I'm just gonna give the facts. Josh, what's your response? I love everything he said, and I'm going to simplify it even a little bit further if I can. And you don't have to you don't take this advice.

Some people still, I I like that approach that the opinion versus the fact. That's a nice easy way to do it. I've noticed that and I met I always message Chris when I'm doing a story sale.

I'm just always amazed at how quickly and easily I'm able to sell things when all I do is just post a a scan of the card and literally just say, like, this is for sale, and that's it.

I don't have to say anything. You just post the card, and we always say, yeah, these cards basically sell themselves.

Like, you just you know, you've got the slab. You've got the label. You know what card it is. I y k y k. If you know you know if you know what this card is and you want it, then you're gonna come get it.

Right? You're gonna buy it, and I don't have to sell you on it. And if I have to sell you on it, then I just you know, I probably shouldn't be selling it to you anyway. So to me, it's just like, just post the card if it's for sale.

I don't you don't need a big long reason. You don't need to tell me you're buying a car. You don't need to, tell me you're consolidating. You just you know, it's your business.

Sell the card. Here it is. I love all of this. There's there's so many good nuggets in there. When I think people post with not just facts, but share kind of their emotion when they're talking about certain cards.

And it could be cards they don't they're not even trying to sell, but just they want it if people naturally wanna get other people excited about maybe some of the stuff that they're collecting.

And I think about some of the unknown or lesser known products. Like, if you do this with, like, a a prism black finite or a prism black, like, people are just like, alright. Like, what's the angle here?

There's, like, very obvious things that we already know, like, are important. But I think about, like, the examples from, like, the past and thinking about it's, like, being retroactive and looking at, like, a 97 metal universe PMGs.

Right? Like, everything you know about those and through the hobby scrolls, it's like this when this was released, like, there wasn't collectors lining up to go get these out of packs of metal universe and stash them away.

Perhaps there were some collectors doing this, and those collectors were very savvy. But I guess, like, how do like, maybe what's, like, the the the balance, and how do you guys think about this in your own collection?

Like, between putting, your money in your collection into cards and products and players that are are proven.

Like, you you know what you're gonna get. Like, there's a lineage and legacy versus taking a chance on something else that maybe through a history of Instagram and trusted sources and content.

Like, you they the card might not have popped off or the product might not have popped off yet, but based on everything you're learning, like, it's something that really excites you.

Like, do you, like, do you think about that all at all through your own collection and, like, buying not because of a player's potential, but buying based on, like, a set's or a product's potential long term because of a myriad of factors?

Like, how do you maybe process that through your own collecting? Maybe kick it back to you, Chris. Yeah. Okay. So this is, one of the great, great questions.

In in fact, if I Josh, do you have any I would like a few extra moments to think on this one, honestly. I have something on the tip of my tongue. What do you got? You're you're kind of, setting it up as, like, it is a balance. Right?

It's, it's something you have to consider on both ends of just, like, do I collect purely off of what's gonna be for my collection and it's only for me, or do I collect only for something that I know is gonna have long term value and other people will appreciate it?

It's definitely somewhere in between of that. And I think of it like, I start off with something that I'm very passionate about.

And then after I make that initial decision from there, I maximize for what I feel is gonna be the best long term and what's the most respected within the hobby.

Example, I really wanted to get into collecting wide receivers again, skill position football players.

And I could just go nuts and just buy whatever. Right? Or I could just only buy gold prisms or I just but my my thought was like, okay.

If I'm gonna do this, let me be extremely intentional about it and only go after the absolute best cards that exist in the hobby that are the most respected and that also kind of fit within my, collecting preferences, which is, like, shiny, rare.

Okay.

So that it it was pretty obvious that's, like, just buy black finance to those guys. So with that, if it was, like, when I did the Todd Gurley thing, it's like, just buy any one on one. Who cares? Just buy it. It's just pure collecting.

You know, there's the prices are so low that there's no risk. I don't really care. But if I'm gonna do the top receivers in the current game, I wanna have a little bit of a little bit of derisk with, like, okay.

Let me get their black finite rookie. And at the very worst, you know, I'm looking at PMG Greens of these, like, bums today that are showing up for $10. At the very least, if this player turns out to be a bum, I feel, hey.

I've got a black finite rookie, you know, twenty years from now when Panini is long gone. I think people will at least say, you know, it's nice to have the the set, the black finite rookies or whoever.

Oh, that guy was good for that one season. Like, the Michael Thomas. You know? Some eventually down the road, it's like, hey. That guy won offensive player of the year.

It's, his best card. You know, it's a it's a respected set. Everyone wants black finites. I don't think it's gonna just get clobbered in value like it like it could've given what happened to his career.

How how much of your decision making on saying ongoing receiver, the best in the current game, and the best potential product or parallel in black finite, all those things line up.

How much of the decision to do that is about your belief in the potential of those cards over a long period of time continue to increase in value when you are processing and making such a big decision as jumping into an entire new collecting category like that.

Yeah. I think a lot of people will probably hear our content and think, oh, these guys are just pure collectors.

They don't care about but, you know, they they they talk a big game, like, they don't care about future value, but we do. You know? So there's still definitely a lot of that consideration.

And I you know, given, like, where we are in the panini world, I do I do feel like it is, it's a it's a strong, you know, investment or whatever. Chris, have you had enough time to process? Yeah.

I think that if I were if anybody asked me, I would just give them the last few minutes of what Josh honestly, I would just say just transpose his approach to the golden era fantasy wide receivers and extract the principles that supported that approach and apply them to whatever that area or content of your collecting interests are.

But I will have a little fun with this question and get into the philosophy of it, the principles of it. So I think like when you I'm gonna I'm gonna continue the threat of the fact versus opinion.

I think when you, look at like the Mount Rushmore of cards and you remove the value components, you remove the sentiment components, and you just sort of put resume versus resume next to each other on cards.

I I think that there's something insightful about that, about, like, sort of deconstructing the value of a card and then seeing if you can reconstruct it using only facts and drifting away from sentiment.

And so one example is, like, the PMGs. Like, the the first, PMG in basketball is the the the green and red set.

And so that set commands a premium for, for at least some players compared to the other PMGs, especially the reds, which that, that seems a little strange that the reds command a premium given that in basketball the the PMG championship the second PMG is number to 50.

In the 1998 PMG the gold PMG is also number to 50.

So those are rarer So and the rarity is significant relative to the red being out of 90. So, like, when we're putting resume against resume, we say, well, these are rarer, but the red is is part of the first PMG set.

And even though the red has a better version, which is the green, which has 10 copies, there's something about the firstness of it that seems to matter.

And I think it's a fun exercise to deconstruct the value and the sentiments surrounding any card, but especially the Mount Rushmore ones, and then see if you can build it back up strictly from facts.

And then that's sort of a way to isolate when sentiment towards a card is being driven by factors other than the things that you've identified as facts.

And not to say that that's a bad thing. Sentiments, popularity, it can be whimsical, but sometimes there's just, sometimes there's just a variable influencing that that we just don't have a model to control for.

But it's but it but it exists. And we did we just I just as a collector, haven't figured out what that variable is or how to measure it.

So using the deconstructing approach, when I start like a new player collection, and I'll like use the example of Jokic because I started collecting him like around three or four years ago.

By that point, I was already developing lots of different philosophical approaches to collecting.

And and the the approach that I like, the practical implementation, is that the very first thing I need to do is I need to know all the available options, especially in the ultra modern era where there is more than it might seem.

I need to really build up this offering from scratch.

So I open up my Google Sheets and I take a weekend or however long it takes, and I deep dive into every possible checklist that could feature this guy from a product that I might ever be interested in collecting.

And for Jokic, it was pretty simple. It's just let me just start with the products that are associated with his rookie season, his twenty fifth twenty fifteen, sixteen NBA season.

Let me just build a checklist, my own checklist that has every product from twenty fifteen, sixteen that he's in.

And then once I've got this the true offering, once I've actually identified the full true offering, then let me start applying the things that I subjectively value as a collector to start, as you say, Brett, shrinking the sea, reducing this.

List making. I'm going to whittle this down to the list of the things that I find are important subjectively as a collector. And and so I, you know, I I start applying filters.

Must be fully licensed. That's a that's a nice filter. That's a nice way to start shrinking it. Fully licensed meaning the PA, the player, and the association. Then, you know, must be of a certain no mercury for you?

No mercury for me. No. That that that it must be, you know, of a certain level of rarity or, let me, filter out sticker autographs Or, you know, I just filter, filter, filter, filter.

And and I keep filtering until I get to a satisfying list. And the way the result of my filtering process was I just filter to the one of ones because there's 38.

So I filtered to the one of ones, and then within the one of ones, I clustered them. These are one of one parallels to first appearing base set cards.

These are one of one parallels to first screen base set cards that are also patch autographs. And then so now I've broken the 38 into, like, four or five different little groups, and now I've got this list.

And then from within that list, you know, I I pursue those cards, and I just wait and wait and wait and hope that they come out or I proactively go after them or whatever.

And then here's the rub. If as a collector, when I've surveyed the true full landscape and I've applied collecting principles because I have the collector gene, we all everybody on this call has the collector gene.

If I've truly tapped into those intersubjectively appealing collecting principles, then I will have whittled down this list to the same list or a very similar list that any other collector who actually goes through this full exercise is going to whittle it down to as well, or it's gonna be very close.

The only difference is I actually went through the process. I have the time to take a weekend and make this full checklist and then whittle it down. And the other guy just hasn't done it yet. Maybe he hasn't thought to do it.

He doesn't care to do it. He doesn't have the time to do it, but I've done it. And if I've done it well, then plenty of other people, if they go through that same exercise, will probably come to the same result.

And if that's true, then the cards that end up at the top of that list that are super cheap that nobody cares about, those are the diamonds in the rough.

Those are the cards that if other people did the same exercise, they would come to the same result.

The problem is they just haven't done the exercise yet. That's the philosophy of of, separating out the the the the fluff from the facts. Hopefully, all of you were out there taking some notes.

There are some good nuggets in there, in a good way. Like, a primary takeaway for me is, like, it's competitive. Like, what we collect. I don't care if it's a player or a category or whatever. It's all competitive.

So I found, like, that that feedback is, like, if you take a piece or a pea couple pieces of that and apply it to what you're doing today, like, maybe it gives you some sort of competitive edge, which is always, helpful as we try to navigate this.

So appreciate that feedback. I wanna dive into, we're gonna move forward, and we're gonna talk about, something we haven't talked about on card ladder confidential.

It's just like talking about players and, those that are rising and those that are falling. And what better way to do it? We're gonna pull up card ladder here and show this is the NBA edition.

Here are the filters that I put on this for the listeners. You gotta have a hundred cards, at minimum, and then we just year to date change, five that are up, five that are down.

And I'm not this is not buying advice, people. Like, don't don't listen to us. We're not we're not trying to sell you on these guys, but I think it'll be interesting to talk a little bit about this.

So, maybe starting with the positives, and I'm going to read the five players, how many cards in percentage change, and then get a reaction, maybe from the both of you on just any observations that you've made.

Number one with a bullet, is a hobby heartthrob right now, Chris's favorite player. I'm just kidding. Shay Gilders, Alexandra, hundred and sixty three cards in card ladder.

Year to date, his cards are up a 86%. Then we have a player that is retired and a hall of famer, also ironically with a 63 cards in card ladder, and that's Kevin Garnett up 14%.

Then we've got Jokic. It looks like some people are finally coming around that Jokic is a pretty good player. Hundred and fifty nine cards in card ladder, almost 13%, year to date change.

Darius Garland, hundred cards on the nose, 11, and a quarter percent increase. Darren Fox, maybe milking the, the move even though the best player on his team isn't active.

I don't know. That one was a little surprising to me. A 21 cards up 10. 68%. Those are the five highest risers in the on the NBA side year to date in card ladder.

What anything stand out to you guys? Either one of you jump in. I'd love your reaction just based on it. Maybe SGA is a good place to start, but, you can take it however you want.

The SGA is just so much. A lot of it is his RPAs. His RPAs just are selling for so much money, which is a lot for a guy who's won one playoff series. It's just a lot. That's just so much of a rise. I'd be nervous about that.

I also did football, Brett, if you wanna add football. Yeah. You'll you might be surprised by number two on the list if you just add yeah. Yep. Click football. That's it. So now you get football and basketball.

Jalen Hertz won the Super Bowl. Not much has talked about him after the fact because, you know, the Eagles team is so good, but people in the hobby are actually, buying Jalen Hertz cards post Super Bowl.

And if you scroll down, there's also Mahomes as well. People may think, oh, his card's going down. They lost the Super Bowl.

I think Mahomes is number let's see. I have him at, like, seven. So Mahomes and Hertz went up. What? Because of the trade. Garland having a good year. So with I went I wasn't planning to question so Hertz, it's funny.

The data says Hertz is up in a big way right now, post Super Bowl. It card show scene, hobby sentiment, the narrative is no one is buying Hertz, but that is incorrect based on the data.

And I don't know if that's a people don't want you to know that people are buying Hertz or what, but I have not looked at this.

I it and this is why card ladder's great because I have, in my mind, just taken the these conversations and what I've seen posted about people not buying Hertz and just believed it, and now I'm seeing the data suggest something else.

So that's certainly interesting. Chris, what do you have to say about this dataset? Yeah. Well, SGA has been, playing catch up to the pricing of Anthony Edwards, Jayson Tatum, Luka Doncic.

Because over the last two seasons, he's put himself right on par with those guys, both from the pure player perspective. In fact, from a pure player perspective, he's having a an all time great season.

He's having a season that blows out of the water, probably the best season that almost any other of his contemporaries is ever going to have. And, they just got to 60 wins. They could get to I think they can get to 70 still.

I think they have 12 losses right now. Not saying that they will, they should probably start resting a bit. But I mean, they are really there. There is there is substance to the hype behind the Thunder and SGA.

Do you see Chris? Do you see there more substance to the hype with SGA in the Thunder right now in comparison to, maybe this time last year with Anthony Edwards in the world?

Yes. Much more substance. Much more. But, and Josh alluded to this, and I think this is big, and this is something that's out of sight and out of mind right now.

Anthony Edwards is a proven playoff riser. He's done it for multiple seasons where he locks in and he becomes a much better version of himself in the playoffs.

They did have him hooked up to that oxygen tank though in game two against Dallas in the Western Conference finals. So you still might want to hedge your bets a little bit on Edwards.

I know Luke is supposed to be the bad one, but, with with SGA, he's won one playoff series and not enough is said about the fact that he was upset in six games last year in the second round as the one seed.

I say he, his team was, but, but he, his success is a byproduct of his teams. And when he fails the, the team, if he fails, the team is gonna be a part of that too. It goes both ways. So they have an excellent regular season team.

I think he is an overwhelming favorite to an MVP as of the recording that's, like, minus 2,000. And I value MVP awards very highly. So I I think that puts him into a very special category of players, if he does go on to win the MVP.

And and the the percentage change is huge, but, and and especially those end like, you can look at which cards are selling for strong, and it sort of tells you about the buyer pool at the top end of those cards.

Like, his his n t r p a is being, like, the the best performing cards of his is sort of selling for a little bit too much.

That tells you that it's speculators and dealers and flippers who are really into paying really strong for SGA cards because that's the card that they tend to really focus on is the n t r p a at a 90 9 and and some of the parallels too.

If you look like his his jersey numbered prism gold sold for about $80. I think you and Nick talked about it an episode or two ago.

That's low. If if his if his jersey numbered prism gold is $80, it doesn't make much sense, in my collecting opinion, for his opinion for his n t r p a b g s nine five out of '99 to also be $85.

Those cards are not equivalent. So, you know, there there's some there's definitely some tension in his market, some asymmetry in his market.

But it it it was all about getting him back to the or not back to, but it was all about pulling him to get so, like, it's, like, his prism silver PSA 10 pricing. Like, it went up to match Luca's, and then it just flatlined.

You know, I think that there's a lot of that going on with SGA where people are looking and they're saying, why is he cheaper than Luka? Why is he cheaper than Anthony Edwards? Why is he cheaper than Tatum?

He should be about the same. And I I think that's why the the the the magnitude of the change is partially driven by he just had a long way to go to get up to match the pricing of some of his contemporaries.

Quick one on SGA. I want feedback from you, before we move to the followers.

But with SGA and these this percentage change, the this increase in prices, the example you laid out, if there is a SGA collector like a Thunder fan who's, like, all caught up right now in in buying cars and, like, buying them because they this collector loves SGA and just wants to build out their collection.

If SGA runs the gauntlet, and, I mean, MVP, championship, finals MVP, all three things happen.

If all three things happen, do you think that that then justifies SGA's current market, or do you think there's still a lot left in there that he has to do to justify those prices?

Finals MVP would definitely help a lot. That's that's, like, that's the big one. That's the one that you gotta get if you wanna justify the prices.

I mean, he's probably got that kinda baked into the price a little bit, so I don't know how much more it can go up, but it it does feel like that's where people are pegging it right now.

I know you I know both of you value the finals MVP, a a lot from listening to your content. Before you guys talking about the finals MVP, I'm not really sure widespread I'd heard anyone talking about the finals MVP.

Maybe, like, share a nugget there on, like, obviously, it's like the top of the mountain type of award, but it just doesn't seem like the hobby talks about that enough in context with other players, or at least not in the content that I'm hearing.

Like, why do you why do you think there is that is such an important accolade, to help solidify a player like SGA's market and price?

Because it perfectly encapsulates the two things we value most in valuing players in the hobby. That's team success and individual the ability to stand out as an individual.

There's just as much to be said about, SGA winning the finals MVP this year as Steph Curry not winning the finals MVP when Andre Iguodala did because the team had success. He was the best player on the team that year.

He won the MVP that year, but he didn't win finals MVP, so it knocks him down a couple pegs below these other guys that we like to that we like to rank in the top 10 in my, you know, in my opinion.

I love it. Alright. Quick on the followers. Joel Embiid, enough said at the top. Laughing. Down 25%. Ant Man, probably up too high, 19. 3. Penny, your guy, Josh. Giannis, down 12. Ja Morant, 10 point two three.

Anything here notable that you wanna call out? The card letter indexes are spot on. Like, it's just anytime someone texts me and they're like, hey. What do you think about this market? I just, like, go look at the car letter at Nexus.

It'll be right or it'll be close. You know? I just like, how could I explain it better than Joel Embiid being at the top given everything that's happened this year? Of course, he should be at the top.

It just and he is, so it makes sense. And Edward's got way too hot. Makes sense. It just these numbers make sense to me. When I was looking at this, it was certainly there were no surprises, and I thought that was certainly pretty cool.

Chris, anything from you before we move off this? Yeah. Pull up Giannis, please. Okay. So we were talking about if Shay runs the table this year and wins regular season MVP and finals MVP.

That would give him two total MVPs, which is puts him in a very limited class of player. Okay. The guys with two total MVPs are Kawhi, Dirk, Steve Nash, Malone, Bill Walton, Wes Unselled, and Bob Pettit.

And then above that, there's, like, 15 players. That's the total. You got those guys with two, and then you got 15 more. We have more than two, and then that's it. So, like, you're joining a very I don't know.

Maybe that's about 25 ish names, maybe a little bit less. You're joining very, very, very elite company if you get two twelve MVPs. Giannis has three, and it didn't happen that long ago. It didn't happen that long ago. He has three.

And you have up right now the one year chart, he's down 35%. He's had prism gold sales happen over the last year or two that were, like, in the $60 range. Even, you know, Shay's was jersey numbered, but even less than Shay's.

So that's when we when I'm gonna use the Giannis example as sort of if if if Shea has the fairytale ending, he's still well behind Giannis And Giannis is still active, and Giannis is averaging 30 points, 12 rebounds, and six assists for, like, the eighth time or something.

Yeah. But he does that every year, so that's that's bad. Right? That's what Wilson said. Yeah. Yeah. He's a little bit worse than Tatum, but, who has zero MVPs. But, I have a friend who, like, messaged me after the crossover.

He's like, why are you guys always sending strays at Tatum? Look, we're just balancing out. Yes. We're balancing out Bill. Alright. That's all. I can I can't do a stretch? I need a breather because I have these times of there.

I'm like, why am I listening to a Boston Celtics podcast? I look at, like, fifty five minutes, and all we've done is talking about the Boston Celtics on a Tuesday night game that he was at with his dad.

It's like, I don't need this every night. He's a great rebounder, Brett. Did you know that? Great rebounder. Uh-huh. I would love to be able to, talk favorably about Tatum, but it just it it the bar is way too high.

It's just but, anyway okay. So back to the point. Giannis is the future for anybody. If they lose the, you know, the this could be the future for Jokic. This could be the future for SGA, for Ant Man, for anybody.

You can be playing Giannis, I in my opinion, in the opinion of The Matrix, is no worse than the third best player. And he's been that he's been top three or top four, if not number one, for the last decade almost.

And he's still at that level this year, but his market is has been slipping for about two and a half straight years. So that's that's the thing is, you know, what what's baked into Shea?

I mean, look. He you know, he even if he runs the tables here, he's still trailing Giannis. And and look at what's happening to Giannis just because he's not, you know, the MVP favorite and he's not winning finals MVPs.

And he's had a a stretch of bad luck where he got hurt during the playoffs a few years in a row, and now he just lost his costar for maybe for this year's playoffs.

So, you know, that that's that's the, you know, the before and after image.

You know, that's what it can look like. So if you buy into a lot of the philosophies that Chris and Josh talk about and you look at the data on card ladder, might not be a bad time to buy some some Greek Freak cards out there.

Yeah. Yeah. If I was looking for, you know, defining players of the panini era. Oh, yes. Yes. He's on that Mount Rushmore. Yep. 1100%. Alright.

Let's kinda move towards the end of this. I wanna hear about if you guys we usually kind of brush over this, but I wanna hit it this week. Do you have any recent pickups that you wanna talk about and any stories associated with it?

I know you've got cards because, Josh, you had to run up and get them before we started recording. So, Josh, we'll start with you. What what's a pickup you wanna talk about? I have two, and the pickups don't have stories.

I bought them on eBay, or one of them was auctioned. All one of them was eBay. So no story, but two more Black Friday receivers, twenty twenty three CD Lamb, Black Friday one zero one, and 2021, Antonio Brown.

I think that's the Super Bowl year, on the Bucks. Question on the a b. Yeah. It it it feels like from what I've heard from other collectors that it is really challenging to find Antonio Brown cards, some of his best cards.

Have you have you has it been challenging for you as you've been trying to pick up his stuff? It's the most challenging of any football player by far for me right now.

I don't know what it is. I do know what collector thing, you think? Yeah. The Steelers have a lot of team collectors, and I know where, like, three of his really, really big cards are, and I'm not gonna say which ones they are.

But I know where those are. And so it's like, it just feels like he you know, that he's, like, bringing down the average of having those three locked up and not in public is making it feel like it's much harder.

But I've been after, like, all of his one on ones, I just, he's, like, my next tug early. I'm just gonna buy anyone, and I bought, like, three. So that I mean, that'll tell you. Awesome cards.

Chris, what about you? Yep. So my, the acquisition I'll talk about is, like, a part two. So I think I talked on this show maybe a few months ago about, picking up Purdy's club level, select from his rookie year, one on one.

It's his it's his first select card, and it's the black one of one parallel to it. And then I picked up the second year, select club level black one of one Purdey just because I like the pair that they make.

I like how they go together. And so I I found a lot of satisfaction as a collector in, getting the second year of, the second year companion to the first year version of it.

Which is out of the two of those, which design do you like better? The second year, I think. Mhmm. Yeah. That second year is sick.

That's a very slick card. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That, I would agree. I think we all, I think, agree on that. I think Select did a bang up job with those. Both cards are cool, but the design on the second year, I think I prefer.

Awesome pickups. Let's round this out. Chris, I gotta ask you. This is a part for the audience where I just, like, have Chris and Josh shared a topic that we wanna hit before we round this out.

And, Chris, yours just says the return of the froth monsters. I looked at that, and I was like, I think I know what that means.

And then I was like, no. I have absolutely no idea what that means. So who are the froth monsters? Well, froth in the context of financial markets is investor overconfidence and speculation, running rampant, basically.

And there's been some strong upward price trajectory on average that's been sustained for a little while in the hobby. And I'm just seeing the return of people that I hadn't seen in three or four years.

You know, people who sort of were there for the ride up during the early portions of the pandemic, and then things peaked out, and I don't hear from them for years.

And then now that things are heating up again, I'm seeing some of those people, you know, circle the wagons, and they're they're ready to to throw some gasoline on this fire and pump it up again.

And having seen the cycle play out, you know, it just, I think one of the most frustrating periods as a collector was the period of late twenty twenty, all of 2021, and most of 2022 where I just pricing was so distorted and and, inflated that doing anything other than sitting on the sidelines for especially for the main players I collect was financially irresponsible, and I still did buy stuff.

You know? Like, I always talk about about this Michael Jordan ninety seven, Harlem Legacy.

I just got slaughtered on, you know, and and and it's just a very frustrating time as a collector when there's just like this, you know, people are gonna do what they can do, and I'm not trying to control what people do.

But it's I'm I'm also they I I'm also entitled to say, I don't like this right now.

It's gonna be tough for me to collect some of my favorite PC players and their cards. There's gonna be, you know, this momentum that people try to capture to bring these the price of these cards up to the peak and then sell.

And then, you know, the the those people leave, and the people who are pay who are winning these auctions are no longer here, and the price just just comes right back down.

And so you just have to sit on the sidelines and wait it out, or, you know, you do you go into some alternative niche lane or whatever, which, you know, has been fun too.

But, yeah, I've just I've I've noticed a return of the froth monsters. Everyone be careful. They're froth monsters in our space, and then we've got a podcast where we're bringing awareness. So just the prices are going up too fast.

Know that there's a froth monster hiding out somewhere probably trying to bid on the auctions you are. Josh, the art of the bounty when finding cards for your PC, help us understand where you're going at with this one.

Oh, I was gonna do it, like, in the next day or two, and I'm just sort of, like, bringing the topic up, see what you guys think.

I know Chris has done it before. This is specific this is not like a bounty of finding something out of a break.

People might think of that bounty. This bounty is like, I know this card exists. Either help me find it or help me pry it out of this person's hands who won't talk to me.

One or the other. And I will pay cash. I'll pay too much for the card to the seller, and I'll also give a bonus to the person who helps connect the deal.

That's, like, an obnoxious amount. Do you do you know do do you know the owner personally? Yeah. No. I know the owner exists. I know of him. Do you do you do you know anyone who knows the owner personally?

That's what the bounty is, Brett. That's the bounty. I don't. So I will pay for the relationship connection. I, I don't know what is right in this scenario, and I think it varies based on the price of the card.

I I think, ultimately, it depends on what you need. Sounds ridiculous, but what you need done. Like, do you need some softening from a trusted source? Do you like, what do you need? And so, like, I don't know.

To me, depending on the I've always thought that whatever the perceived value of the card is, like, having some sort of percentage that is, 10 to, if it's something that I I really want, 20 percentage, points if it helps me get that card that I think is tucked away forever.

I'm no bounty expert. I have placed bounties before.

But, yeah, that's that's that's kinda my feedback. Bounties get people's attention, and you'll at least get responses of people asking another question or two, which I think that's maybe the whole objective.

So So does the bounty show the card I'm after, or do I just show the cash? Like, what gets your attention first?

Not the cash physically, but the number. I, I think I mean, the the numb I think if you if you came up with a formula in your mind that was like, if I get this card, this is what I'm willing to pay someone who helps me get that card.

I think that the number, will probably get the type of attention that you want from the right people, hopefully, but that's that's just my pure speculation. I don't know, Chris, if you've got any theories on this.

All I know is that, this isn't a scenario Josh is facing, but in one of my bounty scenarios, you know, I would, like, ratchet up the bounty just hoping that I'm sort of manipulating the right lever.

Like, if I increase the price more and more, then eventually, it's gonna make its way.

And And that's just so funny when the bound when the card actually does show up that it had nothing to do with my bounty, and my bounty is ridiculously high.

And the card just happened to show I mean, it has something to do with it. Like, a guy on Instagram did see my bounty, but the card, you know, shows up because the guy loaned it just sold it to his local shop.

And then, like, the guy's like, are you still honoring this bounty? Because it's, like, ridiculous, and it's worth way more than the card. And I'm like, shit. Yeah. I am. Even though Once you put it out there, you gotta It sits out.

It's my bounty. And and we've got like, okay, like, I'll go get this card. I'll flip it to you because like, you know, there's the the hobby is so much bigger than social media and all of our networks.

Come on. So so much bigger that, like, you know, you have maybe a a 2% chance of, like, reaching the owner of a card through bounties, but you do have to honor that bounty if somebody does you know?

So that that was that's just funny when that happens and, like, the bounty, you know, I'm I'm just, like, getting more death for, like, taking up more, and then the card just eventually comes out.

And I got a little carried away with the bounty, but but, you know, on some level, I think the bounty does it does work. You know, the the the card I'm thinking about is the McCaffrey Prism Black. Ricky year.

Like, the card had the the bounty had nothing to do with that card showing up in the display case at a card shop, but it did have everything to do with a guy on Instagram noticing it in his LCS, remembering my bounty, and then connecting it up.

And and, like, sort of looking at me and laughing that my bounty was so high on this card that eventually still came out anyway.

I had one scenario where I didn't know where the card was, and I eventually figured it out. And I, like, got the person's email, which is, like, who buys cards over email anymore? It's always Instagram, but I was like, this is great.

Back the old days. I'm gonna email this guy. And there's, like, a long email back and forth, and eventually, like, I just found out he just absolutely refused to sell it no matter what I said.

So I was like, okay. At least now I can walk away. This new bounty I'm I'm about to put up, I don't feel that satisfaction at all.

I feel like I haven't gotten the chance to make my pitch. You know? I'm just sorta, like, in the dark. I'll be interested to see whatever way you take this, Josh. I'll be following your Instagram stories.

Have a freaking AI do it for me. Hey. Make a what what image would you design, mister AI bot? And just make it for me. Here's the card. Here's the person. Make the bounty, bro. Let's let's I I can't wait to see it.

One final one. I put this out there, but we'll close out after this. Just curious as we close this episode out, how do you both feel like the hobby is represented right now for maybe someone new or interested in participating?

I know this topic has come up a lot just in terms of your content over the course of a long period of time.

But, like, 2025 right now, how are you feeling about the space that we not only collect in, but, you know, we, you know, pay our bills with?

Yeah. I mean, I've heard, you talking about this, Brad, a little bit and offering feedback on it that I think is is really constructive and helpful.

But, I think my curmudgeon pivot is almost complete because I'm really at that point where I'm just like, do we really want to improve what this looks like to bring in more new people?

Like, okay. I do I I've always held I still very passionately believe that the hobby really made my life better on so many levels, on a day to day level, on a on a moment to moment level.

I'm just, like, helping me avoid the doom scroll that I would do every morning when I would wake up pre cards.

And now, like, my scroll as I'm waking up is, like, really productive and all the people. I mean, it's just a great community. It's a great hobby. It's an amazing thing. But it's also a very expensive hobby.

It's a very competitive hobby. It's, you know, at a certain point, like, I just, I wanna be able to get my cards and I don't that I'm trying to collect and I don't need any more competition for these things.

I don't need dicks coming in and buying up these cards. You know, I don't need more collectors coming in.

I don't need an influencer bringing in 10,000 new people who are gonna, you know, pillage this this scene and some will stay and some won't, and it just introduces all this dynamism rather than stability.

So like, you know, that that's why, like, I'm struggling with the question because it's like I'm I don't I'm like apprehensive. I'm like iffy.

I'm wishy washy on whether or not I want to have another round of this massive influx of people right now because prices are already so high, it's already so competitive, it's already so difficult to collect the cards I'm trying to collect that I just don't spend that much time anymore thinking about, like, how do we make this thing more attractive?

Like, if we've got some some if if there are, like, some imperfections there, you know, allowing me a little more time to get the cards that I need, I'm not too upset about.

Josh, bring us home, man. How do we block the froth monsters? That's true. How do we actively keep the froth monsters out?

My only thought when you brought this question, Brett, was just, like, I just see a lot oriented around gambling, and that kinda bothers me. I'm I'm assuming that's what you're Yes. Getting at.

Like, the repack stuff, the and we're seeing it a lot from, like, our top representative companies. They're they're, like, actively pushing these products as gambling, which, you know, to Chris's point, might be a good thing for us.

It'll keep them in the, 99 RPAs and Cheetos of it all instead of the instead of the, one on one rookies and stuff.

So I don't know. It is a it is a balance of, like I would like the marketing entrance to be smoother and more in line with my beliefs, but, also, that increases competition. So I can see both sides.

Really good thoughts. I tend to kinda I'm coming up with this mindset of that, like, there's no matter what, we can't control the gambling, the ridiculous top of the funnel content, and all these things that suck people in.

And it's almost like Darwinism afterwards. It's like survival of the fittest. Like, people are gonna lose in breaks. People are gonna lose on buying the SGA car card right now at its peak.

And then it's like the decision they have to make is after you've lost it all or lost your chunk of change that you're trying to make money off of, you can exit the hobby and go put your money into something else or go find another hobby, or you decide, well, that sucked.

But you know what? I'm interested in cards, so let me do some exploring and self discovery and start a player PC or some do start collecting my favorite team.

That's how, like, in my mind, I I'm hoping that it all shakes out, but, we'll see. I think this has, been a fun conversation hitting a lot of topics. Glad we could get another card letter confidential under our belts.

Shout out to everyone who is listening, and make sure you are checking out what card letter is offering and then also the crossover back in the mix, so make sure you're tuning in on Friday. Chris, Josh, as always, appreciate it.