Alright, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of card letter confidential. Excited about the myriad of topics that we have at our disposal to dig into. I think this one is going to be fun.

Of course, we start things always off with the cold open question. And I guys, we're in the holiday season. I realized as we hit record on this, we're not going to have another one of these before Thanksgiving.

So this might be a little early for a lot of people, but I wanted to go around because there's so much negativity often in our space, and we're talking about stuff we shouldn't be talking about.

And I wanna ask the both of you, just one thing. What is one thing in this hobby in 2025 that you are thankful for?

We're gonna start hopefully, there's at least one. We're gonna start this off on a positive note. Josh, let's start with you, man. What are you thankful for? This is the easiest question I've ever asked, Brett.

My cards. All of my cards, every one of them, they all have a special place in my thankfulness. You've done an awful good job of building out that collection this year, if you don't mind me saying. Cards, very easy answer.

I love it straight to the point. Chris, what about you? What are you thankful for? Yeah. I was doing my normal showcase scroll the other night on Cardline, and I saw Josh's football PC on there is now, like, rows and rows and rows.

It's I didn't realize it had gotten as voluminous as it had. The thing that I'm thankful for is undiscovered cards. So Josh is and I'm just certainly thankful for the ones that I have discovered and and I already have.

But, but so I'll I'll go undiscovered cards, cards that are diamonds in the rough, hiding beneath the surface somewhere, just, with stories that haven't been told that are waiting to be told.

Undiscovered cards, I feel like that's a theme of the way you're collecting this year.

Is is there a difference in your mind between the un undiscovered and the not available? Are they they in the same bucket? Or are they two separate categories?

Well, the sweet spot is when it's an undiscovered card that is available at a reasonably fair to strong offer. And the difficult part is when it's an undiscovered card, but, it's it's not available. It's not attainable.

So the nice thing about undiscovered cards is that they usually are attainable. Now that you still have to find it, and you have to discover it, and you have to creatively and resourcefully identify it to begin with.

But if you do, usually, you can come in and get that card, and it's not nearly as competitive or as inflated price wise as, some of the most high profile well known cards.

Oh, gosh. This is a good topic, and I'm gonna pull back because we could probably spend the rest of the episode, talking about that.

But I wanna kick things off with a topic that, Josh, you brought to the table. And Josh's, story posts just I don't know.

You get them maybe, like, once every other week where there's just something very pointed. And you had one that I documented. I screenshot it, and I was like, next time we talk, I wanna talk about this, Josh.

But I'm gonna quote you on this, and we're gonna talk about it. But you said nobody cares about your advice to sell cards and buy stocks or crypto or whatever.

This is a hobby. This is our sports card hobby. We collect sports cards, sell your cards, and change your IG name to stock advice, bro. All my collectors stand up and show a sick card today.

This was a rallying cry of you. And I just gotta know because this was such a strong reaction, Josh. What elicited this response? Like, what was going on in your world that you decided to post this?

It sounds more like a a nice tweet, doesn't it? Like, every once in a while, someone just fires off an angry tweet and sees just sees what happens in the comment section.

Because I you don't really get the comments. I just, like, fire that off and just, like, let everybody DM me and either agree or disagree. No.

I just keep seeing more and more accounts that have built up a following in this new iteration of this second boom post COVID. And they built up a following through collecting cards, posting cool stuff, discussing the hobby, etcetera.

And then there's this, like, inevitable pivot to another, interest they may have, which is, like, stocks or real estate or crypto.

But the part that makes me angry and wants to say something is, like, when you're telling people to sell your cards and go take my advice on something else, you You know, it's fine to, like, post every once in a while.

So if that's like the hobby, I don't care. But I draw the line at, like, sell your cards, do what I say, get out of the hobby, pivot to NFTs. We saw it last time with NFTs.

This time we see it with, crypto or stocks or whatever. It just annoys me. Whenever the the market gets frothy, you have these individuals who don't really care necessarily about the cards, vocalizing and putting that on their platform.

And I've realized this a lot. Chris, did you obviously, when I guess, I'm assuming you saw Josh's post when this came out. And when you absorbed what he had to say, what was your initial reaction to the post?

I immediately registered the account stock advice, bro. And I'm gonna start, pushing pushing out some content. I thought it was a great story. I thought it was a great story, and, I thought the follow-up was great too.

I saw a lot of people screenshot it and then post pictures of cards. And what a novel concept that I log in to Instagram and I see people that I follow who are card accounts posting pictures of cards.

So I enjoyed it quite a bit. What what do we, I don't know. One of the things that I think I struggle with sometimes is the fact that this you've got these competing interests that happen regularly in this space.

And I understand, like, pricing and values is a part of this hobby, and it's a big part.

It we care about it. We track it. But it feels like so often when it comes down to money, individuals lose the sight of cards and what we can do by collecting them, building our collections, the aesthetics, everything else.

And this values, and how much things cost overtakes the conversation.

Do you fit like, I think diversity is good, but maybe, like, that competition between the values and things going up versus, like, conversations about cards, aesthetics, like, look at what I'm building.

Like, it just seems like the the the invest in this invest in this now.

Crowd always seems to be the loudest when I'm not sure that is maybe the best direction for us as a community. When you kinda see both sides of this and the competition for conversation and attention to the conversation.

Like, what what like, how do you evaluate kind of this landscape? Because it it it seems like when the market sucks or, like, when I think about '22, '23, it was like there was more dialogue around just the cards itself.

And now, you know, tailing to '24 and to '25, there you can't go a day without, you know, absorbing somebody's Warren Buffett style advice.

And it's like, I like this person, but I don't really need this because I don't care. So I don't know.

This is just like zooming out a little bit of, Josh, your comment, and just like how do you evaluate the dialogue in 25 when it comes to cards versus kind of stock advice or market advice, which kinda trails into the the stock advice that we we see on in The Wall Street Journal or on c CSMBC.

Yeah. I think it's very it's a very, fine line that you're touching on there, but I enjoy the discussions around investing in cards, prices of cards.

I think it's a fun topic. I think it's impossible to ignore for us given how much money we're spending on it. I think it is always gonna be ever present in the content game, and I don't mind it.

I think it's fun. The fine line is, though, when you're building up the following on that, and then you're trying to, like, reroute that attention that you've gained to to something that's not cards.

That's where I that's usually where I just, like, draw the line right there. But, you know, the investment stuff being more of a hot topic right now isn't surprising because prices are going up.

And then when it's going down, you know, people are looking to talk about other things. I think that's completely organic and natural. I don't have any issues with that. Chris? Yeah. I agree. I think that is the fine line.

I think, not that, I I think it's completely fine that there are dealers, flippers, investors, speculators who participate in the market as well, who get a joy out of collecting cards, who enjoy the market aspect, who enjoy being right about timing things properly.

I do think that, over indexing on that approach, even if you are purely interested in, generating money and nothing else, I think over indexing on price is a big mistake.

And, and and I think, if price doesn't, reflect fundamentals, then we can quickly find ourselves in a in a situation where the market is a dog chasing its own tail.

Or, to put it in sort of a a different metaphor, price becomes the target. The the whole point of collecting becomes just buying the most expensive thing.

And when that becomes the case and the market becomes completely divorced from fundamentals and there's that and I actually end up looking and I say, this card has 90 copies and, you know, it's it's the it's and the price just continues to run on it.

And, and as the price gets higher, more people want to buy it because the price gets higher, and all of a sudden, we've completely lost any sight of fundamentals.

And there's really nothing justifying this price except the fact that it's a high price.

The price becomes the target. And this is a this is a this is a huge red flag when it happens in any market, when the when the point of something simply becomes watching its price go up.

And, and so in collectibles, it can we're we really can risk, creating that environment for ourselves where the whole point is just to see the price go up, and we lose any connection of fundamentals.

And I and I think honestly over the last half decade and even before that, we've increasingly indexed more and more towards that, and a lot has been lost as a result of that.

But the the the silver lining, and it's a giant silver lining, is that there is a massive opportunity to to correct this by just as as an individual collectors by simply returning to fundamentals and actually returning to what we think matters in a, in a collectibles market.

Now the thing that's that's concerning, though, is that, that sometimes, you know, we can lose sight, especially those among us in our community who are very focused sight of why we're here, why there is the opportunity for financial gain, and why this is so much fun.

And that all comes back to the cards. That all comes back to what Josh said he's thankful for. That's what we're all thankful for. It all it all has to orient around the fundamentals of collecting cards.

And so sometimes I do notice that the people who are very interested in the financial side of things, you know, sometimes they they drift, you know, and they and they they can maybe temporarily forget or maybe they just generally don't believe that it's the cards that are the star of the show.

They think that something else is the star of the show.

It's that that that, you know, we're just gonna this as a community, we're just gonna go from cards to top shot, to NFTs, to watches, to stocks, to real estate, back to NFTs, to crypto.

And we're just we're all just you know, then we're gonna do game use memorabilia, and then we're gonna do Labooboos, and then we're gonna do Funko Pops, and then we're gonna come back.

And, you know, maybe that is how some parts of this community wanna work. They wanna be this, like, group that just sort of flocks from one category to the next to the next sort of devouring it, making their money, and moving on.

That's not how I wanna do it. That's not why I'm here. I have no emotion or passion for any of these other categories at all. I'm here because I generally like cards.

I have a nostalgic connection to collecting cards. I love sports. I love the imagery of cards. I love the tactile nature of cards. I love the game of collecting cards. I love the history of it, so on and so forth.

So I think there's a real risk of of sometimes, especially among people who over index on the financial side of things, that they can sort of forget temporarily, what it is that actually is keeping us all together, that that that the the the center of gravity of all this is is just a love of cards.

It always has to come back to that for this whole thing to make sense for me. Great perspective. Before we close this out, I wanna ask a question because I I I know this has happened to me, and it has to happen to me in a long time.

And I've learned from this mistake, and I'm way better for learning from this mistake. But we talk about, like, markets moving based on, the price.

We can go from a player perspective. We can go from a parallel perspective, a set. And it's just this natural, evolution we see where something gets warmed up, but it gets really hot.

And a bunch of people who have those cards are really excited, and they're sharing them, and they've been collecting these cards in a certain category for a while.

And their moment has arrived where everyone wants those cards. And then all of a sudden, you've got the individual collector who's just following along on Instagram and saying, you know what?

I collect that player, but I've never really wanted that card. But I see, like, that card, and I see its price going up. So I'm that's going to be my new goal.

I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna do whatever I can to consolidate so I can get that card because it's the perception that that's the way you should be moving along the journey because that's the way the price is going.

And then all of a sudden, like, you the individual collector goes through all the sacrifice and then ends up getting this card that costs some thousands and thousands of dollars and sacrifice a lot of memories and a lot of other cards to get there.

And then once that card comes, they're just like, wait a minute. Why did I do this? Like, this card doesn't mean anything to me.

And then there's this regret. So that, like, scenario, I'm sure a lot of people listening have experienced being a part of it. I I know I have, and it's it's not fun, but it's a good kind of wake up moment and and wake up call.

I'm I'm curious just both of you. Like, is this is this, like, a moment maybe earlier in your collecting journey you you have experienced or you see other, collectors experience this?

Just maybe open it up and maybe Josh will throw throw it to you, but just, like, that example, like, is that something you think is going on regularly in the hobby?

Yeah. That probably comes with an experience. I mean, it happens to all of us, and not really, like, knowing fully what's out there and just only relying on price to drive what you should be going after.

Like, you you get excited about joining the industry. You have some nostalgia for you, you've been in the past, whatever the reason that you joined.

And then you're trying to navigate what to do, and the vast majority of the discussion is around, like, the expensive popular case hit type cards or whatever. So you just kind of naturally go to that.

And then you hit that point of what you mentioned, which is I have no connection to this. Why did I do this? Sell it. And then, hopefully, you find your way and move into things that interest you more specifically.

Chris, anything any additional thoughts before we close this one out? No. I've just been fortunate mostly to avoid that cycle in my experience just by happenstance.

Like, I came back with a to collecting with a strong, like, roots and nineties, so I already knew that I liked these, like, shiny inserts, and I sort of just started there and built from there.

And then when I went into ultra modern, I was given great advice to, like, focus on rare, you know, cards from visible brands and start there, and that can really build the foundation of a collection to be proud in and sort of evolve from there.

So I never really had to I can't speak from experience of having gone through that that that progression myself, but I've certainly seen people do it.

And I've and I've heard you talk about it on your show with other collectors too, Brett, where, you know, they just this this is sort of the the their their entry points is, like, you know, this card seems really cool.

A lot of people have it.

A lot of people like it. It's valuable. And let me start there. And then at some point, you know, there a a realization happens that, like, well, wait a minute. There's these other cards that I actually like more.

And, you know, I think, like, I think when we come in, we have very little agency. We have very little personal ability to self self govern because we don't know much. You know, we're learning.

We're observing. We wanna try. We're experimenting. And then as the more we evolve and advance and learn, the more agency, the more personal responsibility we're able to take over guiding our collecting experience.

And at some point, just with the the it just kind of the tipping point is reaching.

We flip over into taking full control or more control over what it is that we wanna collect and what we wanna collection to look like. Really good thoughts. And we're gonna just take that right into, a big topic.

And I was thinking about this on a walk this weekend. As I did this, I just emailed myself, and I was like, let's ask Josh and Chris when we get together this week. Let's let's let's talk about this.

So what I wanna know, I wanna think about the long term health of the hobby. And I think so much of the dialogue in the conversation and what gets reported on is, like, an in the moment short term outlook.

But I wanna kinda look at things from a broader perspective. And just a very simple way to tee this up is just from your perspective.

And you you you are in it regularly. You're building your your hobby is cards, and it is your passion, but you're also it is your career. So you're in it, pretty deep. And I just wanna know, like and maybe this has changed in '25.

Maybe it's the same. But gonna ask one thing that and we'll go, like, I'll go to Chris and get your perspective on both of them, and then Josh, your perspective on both of them.

But just, like, one thing you think helps the long term health of the hobby that you like see, or you're participating in, and you're like, this is really good for the direction of the hobby that I wanna see.

And then one thing that you think hurts that same direction vision. And it can be like it can be your ideal state. Like, your ideal future state of the hobby. Like, what are those two sides of the coin?

We'll start with you, Chris. Yeah. I'm terrible questions like this. This is great. It's a great 30,000 foot question, and I'm, like, so in the weeds. And, and I don't wanna give a long, belabored answer.

So I just to me, like, I don't have a specific. I have a formula. So you can you can take this formula. It's a it's a framework, and you can apply it to any specific. And the formula is this.

It's good for the hobby if it's helping the average collector who has a high level of integrity and is a decent human being, if it's making their life better, even a little bit better, it's good for the hobby if whatever it is that they're doing in the hobby is just making them a little bit happier every day.

And if it's making them a lot happier, great.

But that's the recipe for hobby success is whatever it is that they're engaging with within the hobby is as an individual of integrity, that we shouldn't be rewarding people who are doing shady things and they're happy because they're making money by deceiving and hurting people.

We don't wanna reward that.

But if it's a person of integrity, the average collector, who whatever it is in the hobby that just gives them a little extra joy, whether it's having a group chat with fellow collectors, whether it's taking the time to make a post about a card they really like and seeing people like it and give feedback and offer praise and and collaboration and or or if it's just very quiet very quietly privately building your collection and never sharing it and just enjoying it by yourself, or if it's listening to a great podcast, or if it's just browsing eBay one day and seeing a bunch of cool cards and not even buying any but just enjoying the experience or building out a checklist or whatever, all these different things.

If it's if it's adding a little bit to a person's satisfaction and happiness in life, then it's good for the hobby. And the inverse is true as well.

If the hobby experience is causing a person stress or anguish, if it's actually making their life worse, if it's if it's if it's harming them, if it's interfering with their obligations or just their overall general happiness, then it's bad for the hobby in the long run.

So that that's I I don't have, you know, I don't have a specific or clever answer to this, but that's the framework that I would use. Let me just I'm gonna follow-up with you before we move to Josh.

Can you like, when I ask the question, what is that one thing for you that stands out to you just in terms of, like, enhances your personal experience in the way you engage in this space, which in turn you believe helps other people feel the same way, which then directly will contribute to the long term health of the hobby in a good way?

Like, what is that what is that one thing in your mind that you you think about that is, like, really good and you look forward to it didn't necessarily need to be on a daily basis, but maybe on a weekly basis.

I look forward to hearing thoughtful content.

That's something that really has been a a a daily staple of my hobby experience for 2025. It's just, like, there's been a lot of great content made this year. I like to listen to a lot of it. I've I've I was enjoying it so much.

I thought so much good content was being made that it, like, it inspired me to start putting out podcasts every now and again where I can, like, go in deeper into nerdy topics that, like, a general audience really wouldn't be interested in, but, like, that's more so just for me to, like, dive deeper into things.

So, you know, I I just think good thoughtful content has been at at a high this year, and and it's really tied together my hobby 2025 nicely. Josh, what are what are the two, two responses for you in terms of helps and hurts?

Well, first of all, the topic of the health of the hobby, I think most people might equate that with the value of their cards and the number of participants.

And I do not equate it with that. I equate it with the desire for me to continue buying, collecting cards going into the future and, applying that not just to me, but all the other participants.

So it's basically similar to Chris, like, the average person that wants to continue buying cards. That's, like, the continued health of the hobby, in my opinion.

And there's a couple staples that keep that going in a strong manner, which is the manufacturers continuing to create, innovate, make parallels at a reasonable, you know, amount of parallels that keeps us engaged yet, you know, gives enough for everybody to kind of go after rare cards, etcetera.

The new innovations like the three kings thing from Fanatics, I think is great. So these sort of, like, continued moving the ball forward initiatives.

And then having, like, a authentication company that can reasonably quickly and at a a fair price, authenticate our cards, keep the industry certified and authentic and knowing that we have, protection from a third party moving forward.

And then the negative one, you know, I'll be more pointed, even though this is like a high level question.

I think it's like the gamification of the hobby. I think that specifically, the focus of that is what would harm the hobby long term.

And I just I I just keep seeing the gambling thing from it's obviously not just our industry. It's a it's a huge topic across all industries, and, I just, I just don't see that taking us anywhere good as a society.

And for sports cards specifically, it's just gonna continue to take money away from collectors and move it into these gambling companies and the big big gambling as it were.

So I'd like to see some of that tone down from the industry leaders and more focus on the collector side. I love this, answer. I wanna gam the gambling thing again is another beefy topic that would probably turn us sideways.

But I I wanted to I think about this all the time because the the way it's trending is the the more and more as time passes, the more and more from a mainstream industry perspective, the push for hobby from a gambling perspective just it seems to intensify.

And I don't know if anyone else John, it sounds like you're thinking about this, but I think about this all the time.

And I think about gambling as a whole. And there you you don't beat Vegas. Like, you don't, like, you don't go in there. If you go on a vacation, go in, and you you gamble, do some slots, play some blackjack.

Like, you're you might win you might win a a few few battles, but you're never gonna win the war. Like, you're you're always gonna lose because Vegas wins.

Right? So I think about that mindset and mentality, and it's like, is is the way we're moving we're moving the hobby into this world, if that is the case, if we're moving towards gambling, where we're creating losers.

Like, that is the mentality. It's like, the big business is here to create losers, and we wanna continue to create losers.

Because when we create losers, we, as the industry, profit off of them. And that might be, like, the simplest way to look at it, but that's, like, the thought that I can't get out of my head.

I think about boardrooms, and I think about let's keep let's keep cranking up the gambling, knob because this means more money for us, and it means more losers out there.

And I just can't look past that, and I can't look past the, financial ramifications and the mental health component and just the impact that gambling has on the demographic of people that collect sports cards.

And then in this era, and, again, like, that get this is a whole thread, a whole separate conversation, but that struck a nerve, for me when you when you mentioned that.

And I don't know. Like, is is this is it seems like there's nothing we can really do about it because this is the way the hobby is trending.

But is is is that just the reality of the situation is, like, we're we're operating in a space and collecting in a space that is creating a bunch of losers, and we just need to figure out how we block out those systems and processes and marketing campaigns that are coming our way.

I don't know. Just, like, maybe pulling on this thread a little longer. Just try wanna wanna get kinda your reaction on the infiltration of of gambling in our hobby in 2025 heading into 2026.

Sure. Yeah. Trying to be kind about this. It is the complete and utter degeneracy of our society in a nutshell that we are glorifying gambling, making money, getting rich.

And what so Chris said it the way that really struck a nerve with me is, like, he he said the word average.

We completely diminish the average collector, the person who doesn't want to be glorified, doesn't wanna, like, have this big expensive collection.

They don't want to show off their winnings and have expensive watches. We we glorify that on social media, and we never talk about the average collector.

And that just really struck a nerve with me of, like, we just keep hyper focusing on the degeneracy of gambling and all these other ways to make money and get rich and get to the top quickly.

And, I mean, that's, like, the probably the, the kindest way I can put it there.

Chris, any remarks, on the gambling side before we move on to the next? Yeah. It was very well put. And I think the industry has to reckon with what is the product that it wants to sell.

And it kinda ties back into the previous question too, which is, if let let let's say, for example, the product being sold is the opportunity to, make a lot of money quickly.

Well, as long as cards are able to do that, and they have done that from time to time and still hitting on the right prospects can do that today, obviously.

And even 2025 has seen a run up in prices. So as long as that's available, then, people who are looking to consume the product or make making money quickly will continue to be involved in cards.

But as soon as a different product that can make you more money even faster comes along or at least promises to and convinces you that it can do it better, those people will abandon cards because their entire logic, their entire method of governing, of self governance, is just to find the thing that's gonna make them the most money the quickest.

And if cards can do it, they'll be here. But if a different product can do it somewhere else, they'll go there.

So what is the product? And and the the the competitive advantage that this market has and that this industry has is that it sells a product that, first of all, is governed by an exclusive license from the leagues.

So the the product of the sports card and the history of the sports card and the tradition of collecting sports cards and all the fun and the different angles and the different ways that collecting can be such a a pleasurable and fun experience that can last a lifetime, that that product is where our industry has a competitive advantage.

Nobody else can sell that product. Only we can. But lots of different people can sell the product of making money quickly and, you know, getting a quick outsized return and hopping around from this to that to the other thing.

And it it doesn't need to be a total bipolar either. You know? It it can it can we can land somewhere in the middle where, like, yeah.

It's nice to see an appreciation. It's nice to make a little bit of money, but it I really wanna do it through sports cards. I wanna I wanna buy, sell, trade, and deal on sports cards.

I really like the sports cards in particular. I really understand them. I like the community. So there's nothing wrong with with being like, I I want to you know, I do wanna make some money.

I don't wanna lose my butt doing this stuff. But, but, you know, I want it to be sports cards. This is what I like. This is what I get. This is the community that resonates with me.

I love love sports. I love collecting. I love the artistic aspect of things and so on and so forth. So, you know, that that's the that's the that's the real question that resonates here is that.

And then, like, on the gambling side or the the games of chance, you know, what's really interesting about the different formats of products that are being offered is that, like, the digital repack sometimes has an expected value of close to one.

And that's that that that product in other words, you know, buying into some of these digital repacks, on average, the average purchase will yield back one the $1 that you put in for every dollar that you put in.

That's a very competitive product in the landscape of, you know, random chance. Like, in Vegas, you know, the the expected value of your dollar is, like, you know, I mean, 40¢ or something, 43¢, depending upon what game you're playing.

So, you know, that that there are products that are offering this is interesting.

And, you know, it look. I I in no way, shape, or form wanna defend it. But, but there there is a silver lining that comes to my mind that I think some people would use, which they would say, well, look.

Like, you know, maybe some form of person who never would get into cards except for the bag that they like the entertainment and the rush and the excitement, then they ultimately end up liking cards.

They they have a few cards shipped to them. They like them. They end up becoming collectors.

I I I just wanna give, give give that perspective a seat at the table this discussion too without full throat endorsing it or anything, but just I think there's some thought that this is a way to recruit people who otherwise wouldn't be interested, and there might be some collectors minted in the process.

I love, giving the other side a little bit of airtime. I think that was a fun and productive conversation.

Let's get into some, chat chatter about some cards specifically, Chris. This is an episode where I'm studying both of your social media posts, and we're bringing them to light here on Card Letter Confidential.

Chris, I saw a post you put on x about and it caught me off guard a little bit, because maybe I'm used to you you posting, stats and stuff about guys that you collect, and, which I very much enjoy.

But, like, this was this stood out to me because I was like, I know he doesn't collect this guy, but you posted the fact that the '97 flare showcase collection legacy or legacy collection Kobe Bryant row three masterpiece one of one was, brought to market and is available at auction.

And I looked at it and saw the post, and it just started moving some, thoughts around in my head.

And I instantly then I guess, let's start here. What was it about that card specifically that you saw and you took the time to post about it on x.

Why did you do that? Yeah. Well, the card, it's because this is a lane that I've been studying for the last six months is, one of ones from the nineties.

So, like, the information is fresh. I I have studied it with respect to Michael Jordan, but, it's the information is pretty easily transferable to other players.

I just have to go fact check it and make sure it all lines up. And, so the the card, yeah, it's the ninety seven ninety eight showcase masterpiece one of one, row three of Kobe.

And ninety seven ninety eight is, and and, incidentally, one of the things that sort of provoked me to actually type out a tweet rather than just kind of I mean, because, like, this this card is featured in the fanatics premiere.

I'm sure anybody who, like myself, is interested in this card is not happy that I tweeted about it and put a spotlight on it. But, also, it has a lot of thing end?

When does it end? It ends in, maybe, like, I guess, what's a week from Thursday. It would end a week from Thursday. We're given we're given free publicity to whoever owns this card. So Yeah. And and, like, it's not like you know?

And it's also in a very high profile auction, though. So, like, everybody's gonna see it too. But the but the thing that sort of prompted me to, like, alright. I'm gonna say something about this is because it's lot 23 in this auction.

I mean, there are there are, presumably, there are 22 cards that were determined should be listed ahead of it, and I thought, well, that doesn't make sense to me.

And so I you know, the thing that makes this card special and the thing that makes any card from this product special is that $19.

97 98 is the first year that manufacturers put a one of one stamp on basketball cards, full stop. It's the first year of one of ones.

In the hobby, we like first year, you know, and and there's lots of reasons for that, and we don't need to go into the philosophy of that, but we like it. We like 2012 Prism as the first year of Prism.

We like 2013 Select and Football as the first year Panini's offering to Select. You know, we like, 1952 Topps as the first, you know, full blown trading card product offered by Topps for baseball and so on and so forth first.

You know? It's and and the first year of one of ones, is is is something that, that I've taken a a great interest in.

And so what also makes it even more interesting is that, you know, today, for example, I was on Trading Card Database. I was looking up Shohei Ohtani the other day.

And in 2024, Trading Card Database indicates that he has over 601 of ones in the 2024 products alone. And and still that's, you know, that's those are still true one one of ones. There's 601 of ones of him. Okay.

In the first year of basketball one of ones in the first year, like, 2024 now, we're almost thirty years later. In the first year of basketball one of ones, Kobe Bryant has six versus, you know, the proliferation that we see today.

Kobe has six, and four of them come from flare showcase, row zero, row one, row two, and row three, and two of them come from Ultra. And, the two from Ultra are the 98 greats subset and the regular base set card.

So to me, you know, first year of one of ones, Kobe only has six. This is one of those six. I just think this is a really neat card. So what I love it. What I wanted to do is dig in and which I typically do in card ladder.

I found a 102 masterpiece one of one sales from Flare, legacy collection. I'm gonna just just so the audience can get some context, share my screen here and just share, which I'm sure they'll we'll get a chuckle out of some of these.

But, the highest selling copy, which I would imagine the Kobe will beat this one, is the '98, Rodman row two masterpiece.

This sold for $41,000 in June. We have the '97, Shaq row two masterpiece, one of one, which sold in June for 36,000.

We have the 9899 Garnett, masterpiece row three, which sold for $33. 06 in May. We've got the 98 dunk Duncan row one masterpiece PSA seven, sold for 32,000 in June.

And then we've got another Duncan, the 98 row two masterpiece one of one, which sold for $31. 02. So those are, like, the top five on the board. And so this this got me thinking about one of ones.

And you mentioned the Ohtani example, Chris, which is great. And, let's see here. I accidentally moved off Chris. I want Chris to be a part of this conversation. But you mentioned the Ohtani, whatever, 601 of ones.

You go back into this era and you mentioned, you know, there's six. Like, what I wanna do, which I I feel like there's not a lot of this comparing and contrasting at times, and they're different errors here.

But, like, when we've got one product and multiple one of ones, much like we do and, like, think of your collecting ultra modern, think of Select Now.

It's an easy one. Rose similar to, rose in legacy collection are similar to kind of the different levels in select in a way.

But what I wanna know, and maybe, Josh, we'll start with you on this. It's like, when there are multiple one of ones in a specific product, like, is that a is that a deterrent to you?

Or how do you evaluate out of all of those one of ones, which is the one one of one that you want? Or is it just I'll take them all? Like, how do you think about that?

There's a few ways. It doesn't bother me. It just gives more options of which one I think is the best or the, you know, most desired by me personally. Couple ways. Which one has the longest lineage of that individual one?

So, like, for these for the row one and row two, row three, etcetera, like, which ones of these go back the furthest and which ones stay around the longest? And then the other one is, like, which one is lowered number?

Which one came chronologically first. And, obviously, like, the row zero would be the best, and then the row three would be the highest number. So I would I would probably value the row zero the most.

And then for the lineage answer, like, I choose the finite over the shimmer because the finite goes back further in prism and you can apply that same logic to the other brands if you want.

Those are just two ways to, like, mathematically determine.

The other way is just like, which one do I think looks the coolest? I know a lot of people like the row zero because they're, they've got a little bit of a different pattern to them.

Whereas the road twos and threes, like a little bit more plain and similar to the base set with just like the purple cursive.

So it's kind of maybe like an aesthetic fallback. Chris, I would love maybe as a person who is spending all of a collector is spending a lot of time studying this era of one of ones.

And you mentioned, like, this is why the you you put this on your x account is, like, this is what you're into right now, and you wanted to share.

How do you think about the the volume of one of ones from, like, that era of collecting versus the volume of one of ones that are today? Right? I think we it's safe to say, like, we are in the era of the one of one right now.

And I have noticed both of your collecting patterns, specifically on the ultra modern side. It's like, I'm not sure I can remember the last time each each of you have picked up a a non one of one in the ultra modern sphere.

Like, how do you how do you think about comparing and contrasting, the the volume of one of ones and just, like, ultimately, like, what what is go what is going to matter, you know, ten years from now? Like, how are you processing that?

Yeah. I do generally think the more the merrier. I think, the more one of ones to choose from, the better. And then, though, whether we have 600 to choose from or we have six to choose from, that, nonetheless, we still have to choose.

And I love the direction that Josh went with it, which is sort of like walking through different approaches and different ways to choose.

And this is where the the collector can just exercise ultimate agency. The the collector can just go to town developing a philosophy and an approach and a system that that says, like, well, you know, how would I decide here?

And then and then as soon as you've worked out that system, then you can apply it to, like, other things that you where in other areas that you've never even thought about before and all of a sudden just you know, that's how I landed on collecting nineties one of ones.

It's not because I have a nostalgic connection. I remember one of ones being venerated when I was a kid.

We never thought about one of ones. The one of ones were a gimmick or an, an afterthought or just something that just we didn't even think about. Michael Jordan's collecting market to this day has very little interest in one of ones.

It's it's instead around the most iconic, nineties cars that generate a lot of nostalgia and have really strong market trajectories that have been established over many years.

So, you know, it was it was through collecting ultra modern where the one of of one has, taken center stage that I after thinking about it for years and years and, like, figuring out what I think are the one of ones that I most wanna collect, then all of a sudden, one day just sort of sort of a light bulb went off.

And I was like, well, what if I did this for one of the other players I collect who actually comes from a different era? And then all of a sudden, you know, it it I actually start stumbling into all these things.

Like, well, Michael Jordan was actually a part of, like, all the first ever one of ones. He was a part of all that. It's like so then it was just this this, it was very, there's there's a word that, they use for this one.

It just all great things all come together at the same time. Whatever that word is, all these things happen together at the same time, and it just was it and just it was amazing to, like, that's how there's so many stories.

There's so much history involved here, and it it hasn't been told very much. So one one, speech that I wanted to give, which was which was, triggered by what Josh said, is like, you know, because Josh really nicely broke it out.

You can do a mathematical approach. You can do an aesthetic approach. Can combine. I wanna talk about the mathematical approach just very briefly.

I wanna talk about this idea system that I've been working on, which is rarity. And, like, rarity seems like a really simple concept upfront. It's like, oh, we'll just there's 10 copies of this card.

It's that's how rare it is. It has 10. Or there's 30 copies of this one or there's one copy of it, but there's so much more because like we've pointed out, you know, there, like, there are lineages.

There are 600 different one of ones. Is one of these more rare than the other? And so I've come up with a system of three different types of rarity.

And so the first type of rarity is, like, just manufactured rarity. Just quite literally how many copies do the manufacturer make and especially if they numbered it as such, that's a really easy one to figure out.

If a card is numbered one of one, the manufacturer made just one copy of it. They're telling you there's just one copy of it that's manufactured rarity.

But the next type is chronological rarity, which is where this Kobe enters the equation. This Kobe is from the first year ever of one of one. So this Kobe belongs to a pool of six Kobe Bryant one of ones.

It is chronologically the very from from coming from the very first season of one of ones with Kobe. Now if we expand to the second year of one of ones, let's say nineteen ninety eight ninety nine.

I don't know how many Kobe has in nineteen ninety eight ninety nine, but let's say he only has one. Even if he only has one, the nineteen ninety eight ninety nine expands the total pool from six to seven.

So the the chronological rarity argument says, if we go the if we go back to the furthest appearance of the first Kobe one of ones, it's a it's a set of six.

If we expand to a second year, it's a subset of seven. If we bring in the next year, it becomes maybe a 100 and then it becomes 200, then it becomes 400.

The, the, the, the set continues to grow as we add more and more seasons. So chronological rarity says we can use the season to bring us back to the earliest instance and that shrinks to the smallest subset of the available options.

So chronological rarity, in a nutshell, says the earlier the season, the earlier the issue of the one of one, the rarer it is because the number, the total number that of things that belong to this population gets bigger as we add more as we add more, seasons to it.

And then the third and the final type of rarity, which Josh touched on, is lineage rarity.

So there's a tendency to think, well, if it's a one off, it's rarer because, you know, there's only one type of this card that, that ever came out.

And so, you know, there's just there's just this one instance. And it's like, for example, like, with Jokic. Jokic has one I believe he has one clear vision base at one of one, and he has 10 prism black one of ones.

So you say, well, doesn't rarity suggest that there's 10 prism black one of ones and there's only one clear vision one of one. So isn't the clear vision rare? But it's it's not. It works the opposite way.

Lineage rarity says that it's actually rarer for something to have a longer lineage than it is for for something to be a one off Because Jokic has a prism he has one prism black. He has one Panini clear vision.

He has he has one of of all the different one of ones, he has at least one. So if the population is n equals one, he everything meets that criteria. If the population is how many Jokic one of ones have n equals 10, it's almost none.

So lineage rarity says finding the the one of one type that has the biggest population and then going back to the first instance of it, that is the the third and the final prong of the rarity here.

Lineage rarity, finding the thing that has the longest lineage and that those will be the rarest versions of things. It's it is the most difficult to acquire the most, consecutive or even non consecutive seasons of something.

So if you get, you know, if if a guy has 10 prism blacks, it's very likely that he doesn't have any other, issues of one on ones that have that many appearances.

So lineage rarity says go to the first of the thing with the longest lineage, and that's a form of rarity too. This is these are great these are, yes, great thoughts.

I wanna actually toss it back to Josh to close this out because those thoughts had me thinking about a specific card and one that I believe I know the example and Joshua have to help me out here.

But I wanted to get your feedback based on what Chris just said. And you own and I I think you own the 2012 DeMarco Murray Prism Black Finite. Correct? Correct.

So when I think about your the collection you've built, especially this year on football, when I think about, like, the players that I think you like or have this really strong impact on you, like, DeMarco Murray's a part of that, but, like, he's he wouldn't be in, like, the top tiers, or I wouldn't assume that he's in the top tiers.

However, that card is DeMarco Murray's first prism black finite in the debut set. So there's some some, some gravity to that card that I think maybe makes it special. How do you evaluate, like, that card specifically?

Although it might not be, like, your top flight of players, but the fact that it's his first black finite in the debut set of Prism, like, does it make you feel a little bit differently about that card in your collection than otherwise?

Yes. I very much value it over the 2013, 2014. His offensive player of the year was 2014. So this precedes that, and he didn't have his good stats in 2012, but it's a earlier release.

His rookie year is 2011, so I would prefer to have his, like, 2011 Topps Chrome Superfractor, for example, but he doesn't have their Prism didn't come out till 2012, so he has the unique first year Prism being his second year.

It would be the ultimate if his, prison black finite was coinciding with his rookie year. So any of the 2012 rookies, those are the ultimates, as you know. Yes. As you know, Brett, that's your ultimate chase.

Awesome. This is a, fun topic to dig into, before one one just side topic that I wanna hit on before maybe we do pickups is I don't know if you have been observing this, but I've been observing this.

It seems like for months where I will see I will see these for like, we're gonna use the platform. We're gonna use Instagram. And I'll we're on it all the time. We're seeing the dialogue, the commentary.

I'll see one collector that I know and appreciate and respect just get bent out of shape because of a lot of what we led with in this conversation about people pushing price and no one talking about cards.

And then this will start this, like, maybe back and forth even between people, or it'll be like someone posts something negatively, and it's, like, thinly veiled. But then it's like, hey, dude.

Like, we know what you're talking about. We see it too. It's like that thing going on. But I'm always just like, man, if something's, like, pissing you off, like, take a step back a little bit. But I don't know.

Like, I just wanted to, like, bring up this topic because I'm not I'm not innocent. Like, stuff people post will just, like, wind me up. And I always have to, like, count to five or six, and I'm just, like, don't post anything.

And, typically, my refuge will be, like, having a conversation with one of my contacts to, like, just vet it out a little bit. So I don't, like, make some mistake publicly.

But I don't know. Like, to me, I it it shows, I think, that the collectors in this space who are spending time, resource, money, posting on apps, like, get impacted or are very protective of this space.

But inevitably, like, there's this environment where the market's gonna go up and down, and that's going to bring certain personas and personalities in and out.

And I don't know. Like, I just wanted to bring up this example because I I know you all see it and experience it, and I'm assuming many others experience and and see it. So, like, how do how do you all Chris, maybe we'll start with you.

Like, how do you how do you navigate this so it's, like, not negatively impacting your experience or, like, your mental health as you're just trying to enjoy your time in the hobby?

Yeah. I don't know. This is a sappy stupid answer, but, it works for me, which is just empathy, honestly.

Just, actually trying to understand where that person is coming from and sort of even though I disagree with it saying, well, well, this is how they see it.

And sort of understanding the dialectic of free speech, which is that, one one set of free speech begets more free speech, but inevitably that can just be a be a back and forth.

I really like sort of the model of, like, if I really wanna say something, you know, I'll say it.

And then if somebody replies, fine. There's really no need for the me to say it, them to say something, I say something back, they say something back, and we just keep going and going and going.

And then, inevitably, I just sort of have defaulted more into more of a quiet role, honestly. I've been more introspective and more sort of developing ideas internally lately. So, you know, and and subtweeting is always a tough idea.

You're like, just sort of without naming what it is, but speaking in generalities can ultimately lead to a lot of people thinking, is this about me? And that's just a very natural thing. And almost always it's not.

And there's also just the golden rule of just, like, in almost all situations, almost all the time, as all these different atomized human beings are bumping around their daily lives, they are not thinking about you.

They're not thinking about me. They're not thinking about Josh. They are thinking about themselves. And everything they're doing is ultimately usually in service of somehow enhancing or refining the way that they think about themselves.

So very, very little that actually ever makes it onto the public is about us. And if for the fleeting few moments that is about us, inevitably, it's going to not be about us again in the very near future.

So I think about all those things, you know, and I just, like, and and and but if something does need to be called out, like, it it probably is better to be specific rather than general, just in in the if you're worried about offending a large amount of people.

Now I generally don't like condemning the individual.

I like condemning the action. So, you know, I I I don't think any individual is irredeemable. I don't I don't like to just be done with people. You know, I I like to I don't judge anybody by their best day or anybody by their worst day.

So, you know, I I I like but but but, you know, the subtweeting thing is real. You know? Like, there's there's been things I've said in this episode that somebody will hear, and they'll think that I'm maybe criticizing them.

I promise you I'm not. I promise you I'm not, but there can be a tendency to feel like it might have been.

So I don't know. There's there's a but in term like, I've I've honestly curated my hobby experience a little bit too well because I'm I I honestly miss out on things.

I've I've sort of insulated myself so well that sometimes, like, I hear people talking about the things that that, bad actors are up to, and I'm like, I had no idea that was going on because I've I've I've muted all these people.

And I don't and I've I've just curated my experience so well.

And there's so much good content that I spend my time consuming that just very little of the of the nuisance ever makes it to my feed. The mute button can be everyone's best friend. Josh, any remarks on this topic?

I like the comment about, nobody ever cares about anyone, but themselves anyways. That's not that's not a a dig on anyone saying people are selfish. It's just sort of like what ends up happening, in the end anyways.

It just sort of gravitates to that. I always do the you know, I post, like, the the spicy takes through stories every once in a while, and then someone will come back and DM and, like, give me their counter the opposite.

And I I inevitably just, like, agree with them because I'm like, yeah.

You're probably right. Like, to Chris's point of empathy and, like, putting myself they give me a good reason of why they why they didn't change their account name and and talked about stocks.

I'm like, that makes sense to me. Keep doing your thing. You know, it's like, I'm not gonna sit here and have, like, a one on one back and forth argument over d over 50 DMs. You know?

It's just like, hear you. You got it. Good reason. I like it. Move on. That's great operating. Before we get out of here, I wanted to give you guys the space if you had any new cards or pickups that you wanted to talk about or share.

The floor is yours. Either Chris, you got anything in your hand there that you wanna talk about? Yeah. Sure. Let's do this, because this is new. This is exciting. My first, Topps purchase in a long time.

Alright. So this is the, the black foil board for twenty twenty five, twenty six Topps NBA. The base set has four one of one parallels. This is one. I was really intent on getting all four of Jokic.

And, so I have here the black foil board one of one. There's another one called the foil fracture one of one. Mhmm. And I put in a very strong bid and ended up being the second highest bidder.

I lost the auction on eBay, and I just I felt like it was just I already felt like my bid was way too high. So if if if there are people bidding more than me on Jokic one of ones from a paper product, there's we got a problem.

So I'm gonna have to just sit back and kind of hope that that card gets graded and it's a paper card, so it's probably gonna get, like, an eight, and then somebody's gonna get bored of it and wanna make money off of it and send it to auction.

And I I'll probably have to swoop in then.

But, yeah, I'm pretty excited. I I think there's obviously significance to the first tops, product for a lot of these players. Is that what draws you is that what draws you in most is the the the return factor? 100%.

Yeah. And so that's why the one that's the highest chase for me, even though I really like how this black foil board one of one looks, the one that's the high chase for me is the first card one of one, which I think is a great concept.

So, tops apparently markets and says, and, and I have no reason to not believe that, they take the first sheet of the, of a product, and they and and all all the cards that come off of that, they just put a special one of one stamp, and that's it.

So, literally, this is the first one printed. And then it's also comes with a one of one stamp, but it has to have the one of one stamp.

That's very important to me. So that that is the Jokic that I'm most, seeking. But, but really, I hope to get all four someday. I I think that's a great story. The the first Topps Jokic card, and, and there's four one of ones.

I'd like to get them all. Awesome. Josh, anything on your end? He's, practically what he preaches is the one of one of the first year of the first release. So the first product of the first player in the NBA.

He's got you need that first one. That one's actually sick. I didn't know about the first printed one. That's the one you need for sure. This is just me just driving the knife into Brett as much as I possibly can.

The twenty twenty optic gold vinyl, one of one Jonathan Taylor rookie card. I can you at least, Brett, tell people that I asked for your permission first, but I didn't Yes.

So we had a conversation, which Josh is very, kind when it comes to these kind of situations where Josh, we've talked about it, and I know Josh were friends, and he wants cards to end up in the right collection.

And I told Josh this, I had just won the the select, field level black one of one.

And I had my eye on the gold vinyl, although they're they're I knew there were plenty of other people that wanted that card too. And so I I I I also think it's cool.

Like, part of my collecting sometimes, there's, like, a couple other people who I'm like, they collect what I collect, and it's fun to have that, like, group of Colts fans and collectors collecting that stuff.

And it's fun. And so, like, part of it too is, like, well, it'd be, like, I appreciate Josh's collection. Like, it'd be cool to see my favorite player in his collection.

And so, yeah, we we had a little chat about it, and I'm I'm glad Josh brought it home. And, Josh, I mean, you buy a card and then you watch the player play. Let's go. What what a performance.

Did I got the card mid last week? And then, I had, like, a a a race, a running event on, Sunday morning, and I got back in it because this is the early morning game. So I got back, and it was already, like, the start of the second half.

And his stats were good, but it wasn't great. And so I, like, sat down trying to decompress and rest from this race, and I just he just, like, ripping off these huge runs, like, a 83 yard run.

I was like, this is what it's like owning, Jonathan Taylor cards. So I texted Brett like, dude, this is amazing so far. I can start three touchdowns, like, 340 yards all purpose or whatever it was.

Insane. Let's let's hope it continues. Yeah. It's been a, fun ride. And, hey, I'm not sure we've ever ended a card letter confidential talking about the Colts or Jonathan Taylor.

So we're just gonna we're gonna leave it at that. Always fun to chat about all these topics. Thank you everyone else, for listening and supporting, what we're doing here. We'll talk to you soon.