Alright. We are back. Card Ladder confidential. We always start these things, with the cold open question.

And, you know, we're gonna be talking about a ripping, roaring, raging market in this episode as has been the theme. And I wanna ask a question because I've been thinking about this a lot. And here's the question.

The question is, what is the most annoying thing for you? This is you as in Chris and Josh answering individually. What's the most annoying thing for you during the time where the market is really hot and raging like it is right now?

Who wants to be the brave soul and answer first? Does it need to be the most, or can I just maybe start a list? Because I you know, I warm up. Right? Like, I don't I have to build up to it.

One of the things is that that there's this sudden sense of urgency in every interaction from people who are really worried that if, you know, if, something doesn't happen immediately, if card letter, for example, just one example, like, we don't address something, like, right now, like, drop everything and do it now, then, you know, the world's going to end.

Or, you know, there there's just, like, this real, it it is a sense of FOMO fear of missing out.

And I don't wanna sound ungrateful. I I definitely appreciate hearing from users of Cardlytor who bring us the things that that help us make the product better.

But but but during a bull market, sometimes there's an extra urgency or, you know, collectors who are, you know, contemplating a deal and they would like to get some advice or something like that.

There's this there's, there's just a a there's a there's a you can the sweat is perspiring through the device.

I can just feel the nervousness and the anxiety, and and I just wish I could just hold their hand and just say calm down, you know, that we don't need we don't need to be so rushing so much here.

That those are the things that came to mind immediately for me. Quick follow-up on that. Is does self interest play a role in these requests?

I don't know. I've I think I think it probably does to some extent just because there's a there's a real concern that, you know, this all might end tomorrow. The bull market might be over tomorrow, so we need to cash in now.

Josh, what about you? I have two. They're both very specific, which makes it funnier. One, using Charlie Munger, in your pictures or your story posts, quoting those peoples as somehow you're on their level.

Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger. These this is we are not that. The market is going up. Everyone's making money. Two, DMs to me personally asking for advice on which, like, high pop LeBron cards to buy.

Hey. I know you're a LeBron guy. I was thinking about jumping into that market because his cards are undervalued. What do you think about the, you know, Topps Chrome or Fraktur PSA nine rookie?

That those two. So, those types of DMs, they're coming your way, and you're getting them regularly. Do you, like, do you have a cooker cookie cutter response at this point, or do you handle each of those ones individually?

Like, how do you manage those types of questions? Usually, the shoulder shrug emoji works pretty well on that one.

That's it? Just drop it? I don't know, dude. I'd I try to help. You know? I try to, like, guide people a bit and talk about rarity and buying what you like, but, you know, they're they're just gonna buy that card anyways.

You know? They're just asking for asking for the, extra nudge or whatever. Can I add to the pile? Please do. Throw it on.

The scramble to victory lap and to self then to self congratulate as if, like, some but one of us was more right than the rest and that we're not all every almost every section right now of the hobby, whether, somebody's collecting a more obscure player or set or the the most visible one, almost everything is going up right now.

So it's, it's it's not the time to log in to Instagram. And story after story is somebody saying, this vindicates why, you know, cultural popularity is the is the mechanism that moves the market.

And then this other guy's like, this is why stats are what matter the most. And this other guy's like, this is why championships matter, and this is why endorsement deals matter.

And everybody's right in a bull market. Every hypothesis is validated, and I just wish that that, you know, we would just chill out a little bit on that too.

That's that's fair. I've been in my mind, and I think I recorded an episode today where I used the term, and I didn't it wasn't, like, premeditated.

It just, like, came to me as I was recording. But, like, I've I kind of coined the term, like, auction hamper. Like, it just seems like right now like, a a year ago, no one was reposting auctions.

No one was talking about auctions. There is very few graphs. And now I can't click through three stories without the positioning and narrative about an auction result.

And then, like, the next slide is, oh, by the way, check out this card that might be the same, might be similar, or might be adjacent.

And I've got it in my collection. I was gonna ask you to throw your own onto the pile, and that's good.

That's a good one. Because because something else that happens is that everything get becomes hypercompetitive too. Like, during a downtime, there's really nobody's arguing about is a better than b or b better than a.

Like, a little there's a little bit of that. But now everybody's positioning to make their guy or the player that they think is the best or the card or the set that they think is the best. Everybody's trying to position it as the best.

And, you know, it it it all that that competitive stuff, it it ramps up during the bull market. You know, everything's just amplified, and and and it creates a lot of tension. Yeah. It really does. I think that was a good warm up.

I wanna just jump right into it. And I wanna a topic I wanted to talk about is on this topic of the market being very, very hot and a lot of things happening is talking about collector identity and buying discipline.

I know both of you have been buying a lot of cards. I have been buying a lot of cards.

Like, I'm not even not it's like, I'll have these times where I'll open up Instagram and I'll be like, oh, yeah. We are in, like, this crazy market right now. I'm kind of trying to isolate myself when I'm buying.

But I think one of the things that I picked up on from conversations is just collectors wrestle with this tension, during these times between, like, they're collecting Northstar and what they're collecting and, like, the chance to maybe step outside of that lane because money's involved and there's opportunity.

I observe your collections through your both of your content, and I feel like you're pretty straightforward.

And you're you reinforce regularly what you collect and why you collect it, and don't necessarily step outside of those lanes, too often if at all.

So wanna talk about collector identity with you and maybe just to kick it off, like, Josh, we'll start with you. But what does collector identity and, like, what you collect mean to you personally?

That's a good question. I think it's probably just, like, what do you want other people to, associate you with in terms of, like, the cards you buy and the types of players you collect and maybe the genre or sport?

I don't know that it's much more complicated than that.

Anything else that I can add to that or help me help nudge me here? Maybe touch addressing the you're a experienced collector who's been at it for a while, but potentially, like, talking about the, like, temptation. And I don't know.

Maybe it's you're very, like, strict where you're, like, I'm a LeBron guy, and I collect, you know, these these football guys that are, you know, their best cards that I really like, and those are kinda like your primary focus.

But, like, maybe it's not in this market, but in previous markets, like, that temptation component of, like, stepping outside of those lanes maybe and that might compromise the identity you have as LeBron and a, you know, one of one football collector.

Like, how have you maybe combated that in the past? Or is that something you even have to think about at this point?

Yeah. Maybe you're saying, like, during the the bull market, there's a temptation to buy, you know, a player that's not my favorite because I feel like they're going up the fastest or something like this.

Yeah. I don't know. That just, like, doesn't interest me at all, I guess. Like, if I'm gonna do that, I would just play the Bitcoin single stock game or something like that.

Just, like, buy Tesla stock and get all anxious about that. With cards, it's just like I I just don't see it that way. It's just it's more fun to, like, collect and buy what I enjoy and look forward to mail days.

I just I like the ritual of all those things, so I just kinda keep doing my thing. It seems though there's a lot of people that when this happens start doing different things, or at least that's my observation.

Although you are maybe, like, stay in your lane. I'm collecting these these types of cards for a certain reason.

Maybe why do you think so? Is is it just the chasing of the money? Why so many people, maybe pivot directions during a time like this or something else? I mean, it's exciting to, like, buy something and see it double in value in a week.

It's a very exciting feeling to watch your bank account grow just from flipping a card in a short amount of time. So, like, I understand the thrill of that, and there's there's people just chasing that that high.

I I totally get it. Just like during this time, for me, if more people are looking to sell cards to make money, I'm happy to, like, lock up a bunch of those one on one cards that I would otherwise not have been able to buy.

Like, that's how I'm thinking about this moment. You know? Like, some of these football cards that I'm buying are people wouldn't have considered selling them two years ago because it wouldn't have been worth it.

But now that they can make money off of it because I'm overpaying or whatever, it's you know, I'm happy to do it. I love that. I I'm this exact same way.

I I'm in the mindset of, hey. I'll pay double whatever that last comp is. I'm I just did it in fact, and it's making an offer that's double because I need the card and wanna lock it up, especially during this period of time.

Chris, how are you how do you think about this topic of collector identity and kind of this dynamic we face? I love the direction you guys went with it.

I do. It it kind of it ties into one of my grievances that I aired in our cold open festivus, which is that there's a lot of positioning right now to become the the voice that sort of leads a crowd into this strong market.

And, you know, this is the you know, a lot of positioning. Like, this is the set in the car that's really gonna matter, and this is the player that's that's really gonna gonna take off right now.

And and the and and I think part of the reason why there's such a competition to be the one who takes those reins and leads a group is because that there there is a you've rightly identified that there is a susceptibility.

The collector identities are more in flux now than they normally are because, you know, the whole thing sort of the snow globe has been shaken, and all of a sudden, all the pieces are figuring out where they're gonna fall.

And and, and people are rushing, like, trying to grab as many of those as many of those snowflakes as possible. That metaphor is insane.

But I I what I'm where I'm where I'm, like, really resonating with what you guys were saying, and I don't know if I have too much to add to it, but just but I can, like, observe it and sort of put it into those terms is that there's definitely collector identity in flux right now.

There's a lot of temptation to shift gears, change lanes, maybe get on board with something else.

And that makes me nervous as a collector sort of it's wondering if I would become one of those sheep that are ultimately gonna end up marching to slaughter here.

One of the things I've observed and I'd love to get your reaction of this and and Chris, what you said triggered it in my brain.

But I am seeing a lot of individuals that are using their platforms on Instagram to, try it position and shape the minds of the people following them.

And it's not only talking about, like, a specific category or players, but then it's also the bringing in of other collectors and saying, well, it's not just me saying this.

Look at this other collector. And I observe that, and maybe it's I'm we've talked about this a lot or maybe not a lot, but I feel like we've all shared this perspective of, like, yeah.

We like, I don't like to be told what to do in my life, in business, in my collecting. But it seems like individuals I don't know if it's for a lack of understanding that a lot of us as collectors were just kind of doing our own thing.

But I don't know. That's been something that maybe I should have added that to the, like, things that are annoying me about this era.

But is there have you noticed that just from other people in the community, through channels like Instagram kinda overstate and then not only overstate, but then bring in other individuals as potential social proof for their feelings or thoughts on a specific card or category?

Yes. And I've I've felt the pressure to reply to it too. You know? And and I and, like, I did. You know? So, like, I'm, you know, I've I've, fallen victim to the same things that I've I've been critical of.

You know? Hey. I'm a hypocrite. What what else is what else is new? But but, but but this could be a good testimonial to just, like, an observation that sort of it it annoys me, but then I also I contribute to it, and I recreate it.

So I've there's been so much positioning among the Michael Jordan collecting community about which cards are, you know, most desirable, most iconic, whatever.

Like, all these words that sort of serve as proxies to really you know, the the the essence of it is almost, you know, whatever the proxy is, this is the best card, this is the most iconic card, this is the most desired card.

The it's always sort of indicating or nudging the the audience to think I need that card. You know? That's the one I really need.

And so, you know, to to push back against it, there was a collector who had a very unorthodox self ranking of his cards, which is a collector named Bernie, or who goes by m j twenty three collect without the t on the end on Instagram.

And he had such a different ranking than what people normally have that I just shared that. And I was like, look.

Here's here's this guy had printing plates in his top 10 Michael Jordan cards, and he had them ranked over very iconic, very desirable, very important, market, social proof established, Jordan inserts and parallels.

And I just I've found it yeah. I I wanted to just throw some chaos into the discussion, basically, because it was like, look. Like, here's a different point of view.

Here's somebody who's doing something totally different, and it's interesting. And I am most interested in in what he's doing because it's different and it's unique. And he's he's he's saying something that you don't hear every day.

But then what I end up doing is I just continue the discussion. You know? I enter the Hegelian dialectic. They put the idea out, but then I reply to it, and then the third stage is there'll be some meeting in the middle.

So I I just contribute to it. But, you know, I I certainly see that happening, and I and I sometimes I can't resist the temptation to throw my own stupid hat in the ring.

We all do it. I wanna pull us back in the direction of maybe, like, purchasing cards. And, Josh, I know you're, like, taking football specifically.

Black Finites, one of ones, your very specific focus. I'm curious. Are there instances because I I mean, you you have to be aggressive to build the collection that you've built.

These are one of a kind pieces of some of the best players of this era. In this, era of the market where stuff is hot and everyone's cards are more expensive than they they keep going up according to whoever's holding them.

Do you find yourself, like, at that seat at the table where you're trying to get a a a grail and, you know, you're negotiating and going back and forth, but then it just, like, reaches a point where even you, who's someone who's been aggressive building out this this collection of awesome black finites one of ones, say to yourself, like, this is just too much, and maybe now is just not the time, and you walk away.

Like, is that something you've experienced in the last, you know, several months at all?

Yeah. Of course. Lately, it's been I can tell the seller bought that card for the purpose of selling to me or or a small group of people similar to me.

And And they'll just come to me and, like, offer it to me, like, three, four x what they paid or, like, I can see the comp.

You know? And it's like, now you're now you're just, like, actively trying to piss me off. And so now this is where I draw the line. You know? Like, it's more of like a like, I would pay I'll I'll overpay.

I don't mind it. But I, you know, I I have my lot my limit of, like, okay. You're just doing this to, like, in my face five x and and try to, like, hold this over me and hold it hold it hostage against me.

When I I know it's like me and three other people, so I'll just call that bluff and make you come crawling back later.

This is such a I've never thought about it this way, but I think we all maybe have our own systems in place to buy cards.

To me, when I look at the data in card ladder, and I can see that maybe a card I missed out on two or three months ago is being slid into my DMs and is being three to four x what they purchased for it.

And I'm like analyzing and evaluate the character who's in the DMs.

Even if I love the card, there I have principles and I I I refuse. I refuse to engage even if it's a card I love. But it can be a card that's lesser, maybe a lesser profile player of another, but the same multiple.

But it doesn't have that track record in card ladder. It's like, hey. I I pulled this from a pack in 2012, and, I've been following your collection. And, you know, I I've been sitting on, and this is kinda what I'm looking for.

I'm way more interested to engage in that conversation. And even if the end, I'm paying more than on a inferior card, it at the end of the day, it's like there's all these elements to making a deal.

And part of it is, I think, feeling good about yourself. And, Chris, I know you're buying a lot of one of ones, making deals, trades.

Is this a part of kind of your process when you're making purchases? It's like, how closely do you look at the transaction history and what's happened in card ladder?

What as you're trying to land on a price point and the value of a card. Absolutely. So I should clarify, like, almost all the activity that I've had this summer has been the result of trades rather than purchases.

So, like, that that's a that's a big difference. Like, I'm re I'm reshaping my collection rather than adding to it.

You know, I I just think that's that that's worth noting, because there is something of a difference if, like, I'm just if I'm redesigning areas of my collection versus adding to it.

And and so I've I'm everything that I've been doing lately has been trade. And I'm gonna zag a little bit here even though I real I like the point you made.

I I completely agree with it. And and the point Josh made too, that's wildly frustrating. But, the zag is this. In a recent trade that I did, one of the cards that I took back, we valued in the trade.

And this is not the Stanley trade. This, this is a different one that I'm gonna make some content on maybe later. Another another trade where the public will vote that I lost.

But, but on on this trade, one of the cards I took back, the person who traded it to me purchased it on eBay in a bin smash, like, a month ago for 50% of its market value, but it really was 50% of its market value.

Yeah. He just got there first. He binned it. And so, you know, he wanted to value it in the trade at two x that, and the data supported that.

You know? So, like, there I had to encounter a situation where, like, if if if I do have enough data surrounding a card this card had a 100 copies.

If I do have enough data surrounding a card to know that he got an absolute steal on it and that the market value is more and that he was just on eBay that day at that time, You know, if he doesn't, trade it or sell to me, it's gonna get market value somewhere else.

So as long as if they got if they actually truly got a steal and then they're trying to bring it to me, it's something approximating a fair market value.

You know, I've even though the data is staring me in the face that I can see that bin smash, if if the market value bears out that that that they did get a steal, then they did.

And I'm I you know, I've it's I I can't I don't I can't I can't be upset about that.

I had that same scenario. It was 50% the value in my estimation and I offered to double there and they but they offered to me a 5x. That's the difference, right? If they're not the person I was dealing with was being very fair.

That's like, I was like, you clearly beat, you beat me to it. This is, I don't mind this at all. Right. You know, I'm willing to pay you 2 X, what you just paid to make the easy money.

Well, you know, this was their best season ever. It's all this sale, this Megatron non playing day sale. You know? They just start throwing out random comps.

Oh, man. We we could do I feel like this is a whole Chris, maybe you should open up another podcast called the the TradeCast. And it's The trading is great con to do you like trade content? I do.

I it just I'm I'm so interested in, like, your ability to execute the trades at this level because I find that and and, you know, most of the trades I've been following from you are a lot, you know, a lot of Jordan related, which there's Jordan the the pool of Jordan collectors is widespread and very diverse.

And I think about my interest in what I collect. It's very hard to find alignment with a trade partner in that, in my little zone.

So I I love the idea of trading. I'd trade all the time if I could, but I just feel like the pool of candidates in my based on my interest is is is maybe too small or maybe I just haven't found the right people yet.

And what about the logistics too? Like, it's it's nerve wracking enough to have one card being sent in the mail.

To have two, it's it doubles it. You know? So, like, the the the every trade that I've done here in the recent past has been substantial enough that we met in person to do it.

And, like, meeting up in person, doing it on the spot, I that I I'm just I'm much more at ease with that and much less at ease with, like, you send yours, I send mine.

Doubles the doubles my anxiety. No doubt. We'll get into trades, more. I think that's a fascinating topic. I wanna jump over to a little market check.

We're talking about August, which was a pretty decent sized month for online sales and the hobby according to Card Ladder. Now I wanna hit this, because originally, it was reported 416,000,000, and now it's 421,670,000.

00. And we were talking about this beforehand, but I think it would be a good, good content for the audience to maybe understand how how that number fluctuates just in the days after, kind of the month closes.

So, I don't know. Chris or Josh, maybe one of you jump in and maybe talk about why that number was four sixteen and then why it's, four twenty one now, and then we'll get into why the hell we're that high and what's going on.

So we have a couple platforms that have delayed reporting sales to us. Alt, for example, reports to us only after the item is paid, so we retroactively submit those sales after August, for example.

EBay, we have a similar situation. We'll, like, go back and clean up some ones we missed. EBay has a, like, a ton of sales. I don't know if this is news to anybody, but they sell a lot of sports cards every day.

And so sometimes they get missed, Customers report them to us, etcetera. And so we we're constantly, like, cleaning those up as best we can and get catching them all.

So there is some of that. Some of the private sales may be backdated, that Chris will handle. So there's always some reason that it won't be perfect that, like, the moment that the the month ends.

So we're we wanna, like, make sure and clean it up and go back and fix it. So that's why it changes. I think let's let's touch on the eBay side of it real quick.

So looking at it now and I was planning on pulling this up. Let me pull it up and share the screen. So eBay, which eBay is always like, every time I look at this, it's always at the top.

EBay is responsible for $301,000,000 of this, which is a ton. I think the interesting dynamic and the volume is a big reason for this, but I I'd love for you, you to kinda dig into this.

But all of these bigger sales that we see reported that, you know, hit Instagram that people are reposting, most of those are coming from these auction houses, which but then you compare their those numbers with the eBay number, and it's a fraction.

Obviously, eBay is a global marketplace. It's huge. But, like, how how are you all thinking about the, like, volume of transactions that are happening, which, there's 5,900,000 trans total transactions in August?

How do you think about, like, that volume of transactions in comparison with, like, the, you know, almost $13,000,000 sales that are happening at auction houses, like, Heritage?

Like, is that something you're thinking about as you're, like, analyzing kind of performance data in card ladder month over month?

Love that observation. Love that the fact that, the headline grabbing sales and the content that gets repeated and focus on the most is just outliers.

You know, one huge outlier sale or a handful of even 6 figure sales are are outliers. Like, if you look at the average sale price, if you just kinda take the 5,900,000.

0 and divide, the 421,000,000 into it, you know, I don't know, a 100, a $150 or something like that. Like, I I I obviously can't do that math in my head, but it's it's it's a modest number. You know?

It's like the average the average sale price of a card is small, and that average is being pulled up by the outliers such that, yeah, if you look at the platform breakdown, you know, that it the the story that that tells is that, you know, the 13,000,000 is a that that outlier sale or any 6 figure sales, you know, they're they're a small piece of the pie.

And that as doctor Beckett has always said, and that and I think it continues the data continues to bear it out. This is a long tail distribution.

This hobby is supported by all of the in the in the backbone of the of the market of the of the revenue, the backbone of the revenue for buying and selling singles online are these, quote, unquote, low end cards.

That is the that those are the vast majority of the revenue, the vast majority of the transactions that that collecting at that level, collecting at the level of cards that go into binders or are worth, you know, a, you know, a $100 a $100 range, something like that, though that is the vast majority of collecting activity.

And then the the next point to to finish that is, like, well, what do we think about that?

You know? Is it good that this hobby is is largely constructed of of, small transactions, you know, modestly priced cards, and and it's built on volume and that the high the super high end stuff is those are outliers?

And that really, like, we see and we hear a lot about the super high end stuff, but but almost every hobby participant is really participating in that $100 card level, you know, and the question, is that good or not?

I happen to think it's outstanding, and it's a testimony to, you know, what collecting is all about, which is a love of cards and not a love of numbers on a screen.

So I I I I happen to think that it's that it's terrific. And and I think, Brett, you've you've un unearthed a great nugget here that, you know, doctor Beckett has has pointed out for years and years.

It's it's a long tail distribution when we look at, hobby revenue figures. Josh, anything additionally you wanna add before we kinda dig into reasons why this might be taking place?

So eBay's increase in overall volume, the 300,000,000 number, they also added, like, 250,000 individual sales. So it's it's just, like, a lot more volume to Chris's point. And it is at, like, that $50 range in general.

And then the like, Heritage, for example, their average auction value was $20,000 because they, you know, they obviously sold the the the Kobe Jordan for 13,000,000, which brings up the these big sales bring up these numbers.

But, like, it just shows you the the, difference between the auction houses and eBay.

So, like, the big flashy sales on Heritage, for example, have have increased the overall volume, but also the number of sales on eBay has really pulled up the number as well. So it's those two factors. Okay. That this is interesting.

This is interesting me. I hopefully, this is interesting, the listeners out there. So let's maybe dig into the reasons. And I wanna I wanna when we're thinking about the reasons, I wanna think about it from two different perspectives.

One perspective being the auction house buyer and the individuals maybe elevating the price at Heritage to be an average card value and that auction to be 20 k. I wanna that that's a group.

And then maybe the other group is the majority of what's making up the eBay number, which is, you know, likely I who I don't know what their the the average sale price, but let's just say it's, like, $75 or something like that.

So I I I when I saw the the original number, the April '16, it was, like, one of those moments where I was like, holy shit. Alright. I wanna get in front of a microphone, and I wanna just start talking.

And so I recorded an episode for the Patreon. And some of my, like, thoughts that were running through my head just right off the cuff were just, like, marketplaces in their role, the live selling component.

That's the trend that we continue to see in everywhere. Obviously, like, the mainstream of it all.

Like, I shared a story of when I got out of my car at my parents' house. My my dad was asking me, hey. Did you see this, you know, almost $13,000,000 card sale? And I was like, how did you find out about it?

And he's like, well, it was on seeing Morning Joe or some mainstream program. And we got in conversation about that which led to a conversation about brand which I was trying to explain exquisite.

So it's just like the fact that I'm like in my driveway talking with my dad about cards was like this is a strange time.

Celebrities, fanatics role, obviously, being a huge driver. I think of a lot of this based on the way they're organizing in their go to market strategy, which involves celebrities and everything else.

And then you've got Pokemon, which have looked up when I like just without even looking at anything, I was like, these are the things that I think could be contributing to that.

Now that we're, like, identified that that we've got these two buckets of, you know, higher end or market or auction house sell sales and then the eBay number, They and they could be the same.

Like, that your answer could be the same, and it could be nothing that I just said based on some of my observations.

But I'm curious, and maybe, Chris, we'll start with you. Like, that number based on from one month to the next month, that number is just crazy.

It's not only, like, breaking the record for most online sales in a month. It's, like, destroying it. So as you're thinking about this, Chris, like, what's going on in your head about, like, why this is happening right now?

And, like, what's the main catalyst in either area or it can be overlap in both? I think about the funnel. I think about the headline grabbing $13,000,000 sale or near $13,000,000 sale.

But that's not going to explain August, or it'll it'll explain only a little bit of August. But but there are other headlines and other marketing efforts and other outreaches.

One example of many of the level of commitment that Fanatics has shown to recruiting people into the hobby is, you know, getting somebody of the caliber of LeBron James and then also Tom Brady.

But Brady seems to have a lot of exposure, but, but LeBron, a difficult get. But each of those guys are goats in their sport. And getting guys like that to come to the premier events is, is is huge.

And, like, these are headlines, and and so the funnel sort of it sort of starts with just, like, how do you get somebody to take an interest and to start the sequence of events?

And that and and the sequence of events, at least for a collector like me, goes something like what I'm about to describe.

So I see a headline or something about the hobby. I say, oh, yeah. I I know about sports cards. And let me let me go look up what's going on here. And then this is gonna tie back into the long tail distribution.

So, if if if I take an interest in sports cards and all of a sudden I'm coming into these, different service providers and sort of the market marketplaces and stuff and, you know, I can go on there, and I can I can get I can start collecting cards buying very cool looking $2, $5, $10 cards?

And And then once I get started and I get some activity going, you know, and I get some mail days coming in, and then I start learning about what grading is, and I start learning about, you know, how prices move, and I start learning about all the communities and social media and stuff.

And before you know it, I am involved, and I'm in this. And the and the reason why the momentum picks up and snowballs is because it's it's just genuinely it's a lot of fun, and it's very enjoyable.

And that that describes how I got back in in 2016 was just, you know, I I I the the but it wasn't a headline or marketing that brought me in.

It was me stumbling into my old collection, but but whatever but that's what got me in, to the chain to the sequence of events.

You know? I think right now, there's a lot of marketing and headline grabbing that's getting people to take a look.

And then once they take a look and they dip a toe in and they just try it out a little bit, a lot of people end up really liking it, having fun with it, finding out, you know, how many different, you know, avenues there are to to enjoy and and and attack this.

And then but then there's another funnel too that's going on, which which is, is not the collector funnel.

You know, sometimes it ends up in collecting, but that's funneling people into breaks and into, you know, the the thrill of the of the live shopping experience too.

And then I think a lot of those people still do come out on the other side and and have a potential to end up as collectors and community participants and stuff.

But but, you know, there's a lot of people too who just that that's that's a dynamic now that that I think is forming too is that, that that people are getting brought into to breaks and and, like, that becomes their habit and the thing that they're and and how they're engaging with the hobby.

I haven't, I hadn't bought into a break in, I don't know, years.

And I was, I bought into one recently because there was a six box break of 2014, prism football, and I could buy the Colts for $55 And I was like, well, I haven't seen a lot of these black finites.

Like, let me roll the dice. Let me give you $55, and I'll let you open up six hobby boxes.

And the result was absolutely nothing. And it was a reminder. It's like, this is why I don't do it. But I was To do breaking, you really have to over a long period of time, I think you have to enjoy something about the ritual of it.

It can't just be about the cards that you get out, especially the prices because it almost never monetarily, it almost never levels up. No. It doesn't.

Josh, what's your perspective on all of this? Well, I obviously agree with all of your points. I was trying to think of one that hasn't been brought up, and I do have one. And I think it's related to people looking for assets over cash.

So yesterday I went to target with my wife and we bought like the stupidest shit ever. And it was like a $100 and it was like a stick of deodorant and, like, some some drinks. And it was like, how the how is this a $100?

Like, money is completely worthless. The US government just prints money to high heaven. We're 38,000,000,000,000 in debt. They just give this money to whoever Then we have no idea where any of this money is going.

I look at my sit long term savings account. It's making 4%. You know? Like, it's not doing anything. Inflation's higher than that over the last couple years. Like, obviously, I go to Target, spend a $100 on nothing.

Cash is just not it doesn't have any value. People don't want cash anymore. Young people, they can't afford homes. Their wages are flat. Like, people can't afford any of these things.

So they look at cards maybe, and they think, hey. Assets. They know assets are are outperforming everything. So let me just, like, jump into something that's more fun that I relate to better, which is sports.

And I can I can enjoy myself, and I can get higher returns potentially? And, you know, peep younger people are turning more to gambling now trying to, like, get through some of these inflation problems.

And so sports all sports cards also provide that with three packs and breaking. So I just think the appeal of this versus, like, the traditional ways, which are not working because you're getting crushed by inflation and housing prices.

People are looking for alternative ways to, like, try to get ahead, and sports cards are, like, the most fun way to do that.

What do you think about that? I I think this is phenomenal. I mean, dude, every time I'm on my own for dinner and I'm at home with the like, my kids being asleep and my wife might be out with her friends.

I know you're a fellow Chipotle brother. I'll I'll I'll DoorDash Chipotle, and I'll get my chicken bowl, and I'll For $70.

Dude, I shouldn't do this, but I'll get, you know, large chips and queso to treat myself. Maybe I've been good for the week. And that'll come, dude. And it's it's $30.

And I'm like, it's $30. Yeah. I'm paying, like, for the service and all that. But then again, it's like, I'm paying $30 for Chipotle. So in, like, god forbid, we go to Whole Foods, and I don't even wanna look at the receipt.

So I agree. I think that is such an interesting topic, and I would love to hear you pursue that even further, because I think that's right on the money.

But wanna move over to maybe some emotional stakes with collecting. And I know there's a lot of people losing auctions right now. We're not all winners. Like, I've lost plenty.

And sometimes it's even for cards like many of us, and I've heard stories of peep from people, cards that people are planning and saving up for and trying to sell, and they're getting beat because people are paying paying crazy money right now.

So I wanna maybe pitch this topic, to you both. Chris, maybe we'll start with you.

Just like, do you have any, like, stories of cards that maybe in the past that you've lost and or maybe they're not stories, but just observations you've made just from seeing other people lose auctions.

And just, like, when we lose auctions, we lose those cards that we're, like, counting on, especially during a bull market.

Like, what are the what what do those moments teach you as a collector? I almost never lose auctions, Brett. Not to be a giant douchebag, but, I almost never lose auctions because I will sit there.

I will bid back against you the the smallest amount. I will stay up until 6AM if we're on, like, one of those auction platforms that, goes back and forth, you know, with the with the resetting extended time limits.

The last monster auction that I was a a participant in that I wasn't gonna lose no matter what was Mahomes' first select black one of one from his rookie year.

That was that's the premier level die cut. He doesn't have a concourse. That came up for auction about two years ago, and I just wasn't gonna lose it.

So we were the last auction. We that was the last card to close in that auction. I was just going back and forth. I put my minimal bid, go against the other guy.

I'm just I'm not losing it. The one before that was Christian McCaffrey's NT Shield autograph on Golden. And once again, I'm not losing. Now I also don't do the thing where I put a giant bid in. I don't mega bid.

If it's eBay, sometimes you have to mega bid because they don't have extended bidding. But on a platform where there is extended bidding, I don't mega bid. I do the minimum. I and I'm just gonna I'm I'm going to win a war of attrition.

We will if we are gonna go blow for blow, I will outlast. So that's I I am that I am the sucker on the other end of this hypothetical who actually is the guy who's outbidding you.

I am that guy. Now with that said, I have a very painful auction that I did lose, and it was because it was a card that I just wasn't 100% passionate about.

And looking back on this loss, it was it was a it was a a massive mistake to lose the auction given how well the card is done.

But the but the when you said think of auctions that you've lost, it it now the the one that has leaped into my mind is that, there was a LeBron prism black that was on, Fanatics premiere maybe two or three years ago, and I was the runner-up on it.

And, and, yeah, I I don't know. It it ended around, like, 38,000 or something like that.

And I was the runner-up, and the winner was a a well known dealer in the space or flipper in the space. And that just made me even more frustrated because I was like, you know, I'm I wasn't trying to buy this car to flip it.

I just I just wanted a prism black of the best player who will ever have a prism black. And, and and but I lost. And and now, you know, that card now is worth 6 figures easy easy.

Who knows how how much it's worth? So that that's a loss, but but I know why I lost. You know? I I didn't I I I wasn't as passionate about it because it it wasn't my top PC player.

Was it the 2021? Is that where he's in, like, a gold Lakers uniform and he's, you just kinda see him? It's a PSA seven. He's flexing. Yeah. He's flexing. Yeah. I was I was trying to look at it so I could share it with Yeah.

That let's see. Yep. That's it. There it is. Wow. That's incredible. The can before we pass it over No. He lost. He lost. You heard that right? It's not incredible. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrible.

It's terrible. Terrible. It is a hassle. That that card's worth that card is worth a lot more than that. That card is insane. Look at that card, man. LeBron Prism Black. He's the best player who will ever have a Prism Black.

So I think it this is interesting about this LeBron Prism, is, you know, we think about the tribute. We think about the, the chalk toss, the last this one is actually this one might be the I'm sorry.

I'm not trying to pour salt in the woods, but, like, the flexing? Come on. This is this is a cool card. Yeah. That card's nuts, man. It's a big, big mistake to not win that.

So can I can I ask you, like, when you're in that moment where you're like, I'm not losing and you're just, like, going blow for blow, like, what, like, do you have, like, what what kind of training are you doing to get in that mode so you're not, like, falling asleep?

Well, a beverage going on? Like, what what what what what's your Okay. This is good. This is good. Okay. Okay. First of all, this is what you gotta understand.

I didn't give this aspect of it its proper due. Christina is over my shoulder egging me on. You know? She up there with you. Should she was she when she get when so it doesn't even matter to her.

Like, when when a when a obstacle is put in front of her or a target is set in front of her, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to her, if she agrees with it or not. She will not she her entire shtick becomes not giving in.

So, you know, she's she's the devil on the shoulder who's just like, you're really gonna let him beat you after this? So she that's like, it's some it's like you're listening to a flipper right now, Chris.

Are you not? She's, like, ridiculing him and She is an awful influence. So I don't know. That's that's part of it. But, but, also, just, dude, I'm so I'm so freaking aggressive, and I'm so passionate about cards.

And that combination is very deadly to run up against in the auction setting. It's, it's like, Christina, all I could visualize is, like, mighty Mickey from Rocky. Like, Rocky's trainer just pushing him to the end.

Oh, okay. Alright, Josh. What about you? What are do you are you like Chris winning everything, or do you have any l's that you can report from your history? My wife is upstairs quietly ignoring me. I don't have anyone bidding.

I can also attest to what Chris is saying. I just completed a Fantasy Football auction draft, and when you're bidding against him, you might as well just give up. Just let him get it cheaper. It's better that way.

Oh my yes. I've I overpaid for everything in that Fantasy draft. I told Josh after. I was like, oh my I got the guys I wanted, but, dude, I overpaid wildly. That's the beauty of auction. You get exactly what you want.

I've told this story a 100 times, but it's the 2003 Ultimate Collection logo, man, auto, LeBron. The horizontal one, it's in a PSA nine slab. It sold for, like, $300, and it was in the first year of my collecting life.

And I just you know, I wasn't at the time ready to do something like that, but it's just always this reminder over my head. You know, that card's worth, like, what? I mean, 10,000,000 or whatever, 5,000,000. I have no idea.

But it's worth a lot more than $300. So it's just always hung over me. Like, if you if you, like, strongly believe in something, just freaking get it. You know? Stop stop whining about the having to sell your house to get it.

Just do it. Yes. Just, like, you know, kids can stay in a hotel for a little bit. You'll figure it out. Exactly. That was that that was fun. Glad we could, relive the past a little bit.

I got a question, and I wanted to present it to you both. Someone was asking me recently about hobby my my hobby because my hobby is my is my pastime, but it's also my profession. And so, like, the lines are blurring.

Like, if I the only time I'm really not thinking about cards is when I'm with my children. And then sometimes if there's an auction, I gotta be like, hey, kids. Like, we'll throw on a show right now. I gotta get this auction done.

That's few and far between. But cards are a big part of my life. I know they're a big part of your life. Because cards are such a big part of your life and they're basically, you know, everything you do almost.

How do you both manage, like, the the excitement versus the burnout? Like, do you ever have a time where you're like, this is too much. I need a breather. I hear about people taking breathers all the time.

I'm I'm curious, especially when it's tied to your professional existence. Like, how do you manage that? Are you all the time just so interested in what's going on that you never really feel a need to take your foot off the gas?

Josh, we'll start with you this time. Yeah. I I never like giving this advice to other people. You know? Like, if you're tired, go to sleep.

If you're hungry, eat. I don't you know, if you're burnt out, don't don't do it. I don't know what to tell you. But for so I can only say for myself, I haven't yet been burnt out like you're describing.

One of it part of it is, like, a necessity because it is our job. You know? Like, we this is how we make a living with card ladder and crossover and all these you know? I won't call them obligations because they're you know?

I'd I'd be so lucky to have this amazing career that's been gifted to us. So it's definitely not a burden, but that is part of it is we we do have to, like, maintain and keep it going. So that part is always kinda keeping me driven.

I like I'm I'm driven by getting things done and, like, accomplishing tasks. I'm I'm very similar to Christina in that matter. We both, like, see the thing, and we have to just, like, go do it.

So I'm driven by that constantly. But, also, like, cards are really sick, dude. Like, I I just I can't imagine a world that's more entertaining than sports cards right now.

I just you know, like, I'm sure there's other hobbies that that, that men and women like more, and I I'm sure they do. But for me, it's like, sports are my favorite thing. I like watching sports.

I get to, like, buy these expensive items that are, like, related to the players, and I get to, like, talk about them. And there's rare ones. There's less rare ones. There's ones that are cool looking in my opinion and not cool.

So I don't know. I just I couldn't, like, devise a market more entertaining than this. So I just I'm not on board with the burnout. I I think it's always gonna be fun, and it'll keep me entertained for years.

So Chris and I were having a conversation recently, and he brought up the fact that, like, card ladder is it is a more or less a content platform by all the images.

And we just talked about this LeBron card, and it's, like, staring at me out of the corner of my eye.

And I'm still still looking at it, and I'm like, god, that is an awesome card. And then I'm also staring at the price and be like, I can't believe just three years ago this card could be had for sorry, Chris, for $40,000.

And so, like, just seeing images of cards makes me way more interested. And, like, after this, I, like, wanna go like, my mind races towards, like, I wanna go look at all the prison black LeBron sales.

I wanna just figure it out, like, when you hopped on, like, what you could have got these cards for based on what they are now.

And I don't know. I just find that so fascinating. Cardliner really, like, based on all the pictures is is, the fuel for a lot of excitement like this.

So I guess my question before we move to you, Chris, Josh, you're, like, working on this platform, like, day in and day out, and you're constantly seeing these images and these cards.

Does that add to kinda your level of excitement about just not only your own personal interest in the hobby, but also what you're working on and building on a day to day basis?

Yeah. But not in the way that you're describing. I'm also driven by rage. So I get rage over some of the ridiculous sales that come across my desk and I can't tell. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Like, Caitlin Clark Kaboom Golds that are, like, fake product inserts that are a $100. It just, like, fills me with so much rage, and it sort of, like, drives me to go make content about how that's a terrible purchase, etcetera.

And then that drives me to make the product better to prove that I'm right or whatever. You know?

I'm constantly driven by that. Chris, what about you? I don't I I would imagine you don't experience much burnout, especially since you're, like, a regular getting in in a car and traveling to go make trades, but I could be wrong.

Let us in on the inside of this from your perspective. I've, always spent my adult life being, like, full time doing passion projects, whether it was working in the music business or being a nontraditional full time student.

And then, now in this hobby and, like, the thing that I think that this hobby has that is so important to avoiding burnout for those of us who work in it is that there are so many paths that haven't been charted yet.

There are so many terrains that haven't been explored yet. There are it's just everything is new. There's so many different things waiting to be discovered.

There are so many new angles waiting to be taken on how to approach whether it's making content, whether it's making a product, whether it's building a collection, whether it's, you know, interacting with the community.

I mean, everything is is just so wide open that, that you never really you never have to feel like you're doing what you're told.

You never really have to feel like you're retreading something that somebody's already done. You can always be inventive and creative and forge a new path.

And and that is something that, for my personality type, I think, keeps it so engaging, keeps me magnetized to it, wanting to keep coming back, keep exploring it, keep approaching it from new angles, and, and and keep attacking it from a new from a new way.

Like, I I think that's a I I think that's a huge factor. I love it. This was, a fun chat. Before we get out of here, definitely wanna spend some time and talk about any recent cards or car a card that you picked up.

Let's talk about, mail days. Chris, I know you've been talking a lot about deals you made, but is there any specific card that you wanna spotlight that you picked up recently and just spend a second talking about it?

Did this actually line up quite nicely with, my little spiel there at the end?

Because the the mail that I'm gonna show off, it it dovetails quite nicely with that that, so the card I'm showing here is the nineteen ninety seven ninety eight upper deck flagship, Power Deck Audio one of one insert of Michael Jordan.

And, you know, the front side of it looks like a totally normal card.

You know, it's got the nice Bulls red and everything, got a little bit of shine to it. The backside of it is a CD. It's it's a the card has audio content on it that's never been heard before. Nobody knows what it says.

It's probably just highlights of Jordan, but, but nobody know nobody quite knows what it says. And, you know, this card is a symbol to how nine plus years into collecting, and I have completely reinvented my approach to collecting.

You know? Nine plus years in, and I've and I've found a whole new lane and a new angle and a new creative approach.

And, you know, and something that I've been thinking a lot about with cards is, like, what's what's a card's tagline or what what's what's the elevator pitch for a for why a card has significance to me as a collector?

And the one for this one, I just I found it to be absolutely, you know, this this it it kind of symbolizes my new approach, which this make no mistake.

This card is an obscurity. People don't know what this card is. People haven't heard of this card. People are not aware of this card.

But this is the first one of one of Michael Jordan from upper deck. It's only the first one of one year in basketball is 9798. There are only seven Michael Jordan cards in that first year. This is one of them.

And this is actually the first upper deck one of one of any player of any product ever made. Then you think about the lineage of one of ones in upper deck, that that dual logan autograph Kobe MJ comes from that lineage.

But that also is an upper deck one of one except under the super high end brand of exquisite. So, you know, you think about stuff like this.

You think about constantly creative approaches. Like, I will never afford a $13,000,000 card, but how can I creatively approach or find something find meaning in that that applies to me as a collector?

So that that that card actually that mail day really ties in nicely with how you can constantly reinvent your approach to this hobby.

What what if that when you played the disc, it sent gave you instructions, and those instructions led you to the real first one of one, which was a Jordan, a logo man, one of one upper deck card with an autograph.

Like, would that empty to maybe figure out what's kinda content is on that? That's so insane. So so, somebody else was like, what if what if the audio content is a redemption to, like, meet Michael Jordan or something?

Like, go hang out with Jordan. Like, people have floated all sorts of ideas. I'll tell you this. It's way better to not know because I guarantee you the content on that CD is just like, Jordan scores a basket.

You know, it's just the most lame thing you could possibly imagine. But so it's way better to leave it to the imagination. Just like with game worn cards where the the jersey piece is game worn, don't tell me what game that came from.

Because if that came from a game where Jokic scored seven points and they lost by 30, the the the the the card loses all of its appeal.

But if I can imagine that this is from the finals against the heat, even though I don't know if it is, I know it's very likely it's not.

But if I can pretend that it is, much better. That's exactly right. Josh, what about you? Dude, that card is Schrodinger's cat. It says everything and it says nothing all at the same time.

He he he could be an audio recording of someone saying congrats, Chris McGill, on buying this in the future. I know you're gonna hold it forever. It says that you never know. We'll never know. We'll never know.

Yeah. I was struck by when you're talking about, like, how you can't afford a $13,000,000 card, but you wanna, like, find your own lane to get the best of something, and that's similar to what I'm trying to do with the football thing.

I love football. I love fantasy football. Everyone knows quarterbacks reign supreme.

There was a sale of a Trevor Lawrence platinum shield autograph that sold for a 114,000, and he's, like, the twentieth best quarterback in the NFL, maybe. You know? He's, like, really struggling.

So mine is like, okay. I'll just do the other positions, and I find there's more value. I can get cooler cards for much, much cheaper. The pickup this month was the I'm showing you the 2014 TopScrome Superfractor Khalil Mac rookie card.

So it's pretty much probably this and his, you know, black finite prism would be his two best cards. The Super Fracture, obviously, insane design, very cool looking card.

Khalil Mack is, twenty sixteen defensive player of the year, four time first team all pro, nine time pro bowler. His accolades absolutely destroy somebody like Trevor Lawrence.

And, you know, so I'd rather have, like, the best linebacker of the era, top maybe, like, top five linebacker there or whatever you wanna say, versus, like, the twentieth best quarterback.

It's just more fun. You know? And, like, I'm I'm enjoying it more to chase cards like this of a player I never would have, like, collected otherwise.

But now looking at his accolades, this card presented itself. Let's just buy it. This is card sick. I, I love that mindset and mentality.

Do you think about, like, when we're we I know it's different eras, but, you know, we just had a, what, $325,000 Barry Sanders green PMG sell, and he's not a quarterback. Like, does that do you think about that at all?

Because, like, we've been told that football card collectors, like, focus on quarterbacks. But, like, if you look at the nineties category, Jerry Rice and Barry Sanders didn't play quarterback, and they're leading the charge.

Yeah. I think the counter to that is something like, you know, running backs dominated the nineties and not quarterbacks, and receivers dominate the modern era.

And, you know, Barry and Jerry Barry and Jerry probably have a claim to, like, the top spot of the best of their position of, of all time, depending on who you ask.

So I get that, but, like, that Barry Sanders is not a rookie card. It's number to 15. A lot of people skip over that because basketball is number to 10. You just sort of assume. There's actually 15 for Barry Sanders.

And that sold for over $300. And, you know, some of these, like, modern superstar fantasy guys, their best card wouldn't even touch something like that. There's one copy. So I definitely noticed that.

It's interesting to me. It's noteworthy. Another fun episode of card letter confidential. This was we got into some meaty topics. We were as efficient and I think as possible, and, we talked about cards going up and how we deal with it.

So, hopefully, you all enjoyed this. Chris and Josh, as always, a great episode and looking forward to doing this again very soon. Thank you. See you, buddy.