Alright. We are debuting a brand new episode here on stacking slabs called Built for the Hobby. I'm excited for this series and specifically this episode, which we're gonna be talking about why tech matters in the hobby right now.

I've shared with many of you. I spent the first part of my career in tech and definitely make observations of what's happening from a a collector's perspective and a business perspective when it comes to tech.

But haven't had too many people to, chat about it with until I met Scott, and Scott is the CEO and cofounder at Inferno Red Technology. He was recently on an episode of Passion of Profession, and we met via one of his employees, Ed.

And we've been having some conversations and thought, you know what? This would be fun to dig into all things tech, in the hobby. So we're gonna do that in this episode and future episodes.

But without further ado, Scott, you ready for this? Hey. Yeah. I'm ready. And way to call out Ed. Ed loves this stuff. So I'm glad he, he, kept pushing us to, to get together and and dive into it.

He loves he loves stacking slabs, and this was a a good thing to get started. So I'm super excited. Yeah. Shout out, Ed. It's incredible what one Instagram DM on a Saturday, and I'll never forget when, Ed messaged me.

And it led to us doing content, which is many, many months later, but that's phenomenal. For those who haven't listened to Passionate Profession, I'll put the that episode link in the show notes.

But it's more of an intro to you and your story. I think maybe for people new coming in, maybe give a quick snapshot on just, like, why Inferno Red Technology is you uniquely positioned to maybe lead this conversation around tech?

Like, a little bit about you, a little bit about the company.

Absolutely. So, about me, super easy. Father of two, boys, 17 and 20, Morgan and Christopher, husband to Laura, and a huge huge sports fan, collectibles I've been doing and sports cards specifically since I was a little kid.

Huge Michael Jordan fan, huge Steelers fan, and, that translated into, if you listen to the other podcast, time with my kids in sports and especially my my older son, Christopher, where we built a business, a side business outside of tech in, buying and selling and collecting.

And he is now deep expert in the field of, sports collectibles, and I say that because he's in college and this is what he's gonna do in some way, shape, or form.

He already does it. He has he's worked in a few jobs. But you can hear that whole story on on the, passion to, profession podcast.

But that led to us working at Infernal Red in the hobby. And so on the technical side, we are a software engineering, consulting firm. So what we do is we build custom software for commercial clients.

Sports and sports collectibles are two of our biggest industry areas. I mean, we're in others, because we just love building, amazing software.

And then we in collectibles, we've worked with, many of the biggest companies in this space. So, Upper Deck, Collector's Universe, Loop, one thirty point Comsey, DC Sports eighty seven.

The there's a long list of companies that we've we've either work with directly building software for their their core platforms. We released the first, mobile app with comp c a few years ago at the national.

We built Loop's initial, platform when they were coming out of basically beta. So we're we're, we're very passionate about the hobby and tech, and, you know, more than 50% of our team has worked on a project related to collectibles.

So this is our chance to get out here and talk about tech and and and the hobby and and what we think, that looks like.

And then, you know, we wanna build, we wanna build software for the hobby. So we're always looking for companies and people who have ideas and are working working to grow, their platform or their their offering.

So that's what we do. Let's start with the, maybe, current state of tech and the hobby, and I think we've chatted. This, what I've seen from a a tech perspective looks a lot different than it did five years ago.

I think things are trending, in the right direction. Although, they're you're working with different industries. So, like, trying to get a comparison point for you.
How would you compare what's happening in the hobby from a tech perspective today versus other industries that you're currently working in?

I mean, I think that, for us, what we noticed that, you know, several years ago is just from a tech perspective, you know, that it's pretty wild west.

Right? There's a there's some like, the hobby in and of itself is baked in tradition and in physical connections with people and with products.

So, you know, the idea of, like, how does tech support it or change it, there's a few different things.

One, I feel like, you know, in other in other industries, you're building software to solve a business problem that return has a return on investment or some value to a customer or to a fan experience or engagement or whatever it might be.

You know, we've been working in the, election software space. So, like, how can you make, make it the process easier, in whatever industry you're in.

But I think in the hobby, what we saw is, like, there's this, like, lack of innovation of several years ago. I mean, we've been doing this for a long time.

So if you go to, like, five to ten years ago, and and it what what other companies and industries were doing in in terms of, in innovation to move forward, like, the hobby was, again, just so physical, like cards.

So when things started to to emerge like digital products and blockchain and and all of these, these non, in your hands kind of of things, there was this friction that occurred, from that perspective, from the product perspective.

So that was one thing.

The second is there's just so many different ways to try and satisfy, you know, supporting, people who are in business in the hobby like, stores, like your, you know, your your local hobby shops, or people walking around at a at a card show.

So that you started to see some innovation in things like point of sale systems for shops and collection, management systems for hobbyists.

And, like, that's interesting and and then there's just a lot of people trying to solve those problems. But it wasn't, like, you know, groundbreaking.

It was just there's it's and it feels like there were so many different attempts at trying to do these things, especially in, like, to serve the the collectors that there's a few that rose to the top, like, in terms of pricing and and history and marketplace support, like Card Ladder and and eBay and these others.

But, you know, even after that, it still feels like there's this industry is ripe for technical in innovation and evolution.

And so now I feel like in the last few years, you've seen some some pretty interesting innovations, that make it a better experience for collectors when they're at shows.

For example, being able to to, to do pricing, like things like the way that card ladder works when you have a connection. That's at the national if you have a connection.

But even when you don't. Right? Like, being able to solve the that problem, and give you something so you can look up comps and you look up price history and things like that, which is super important.

It's, like, probably the most used app feature, whether it's, you know, card lottery or whatever. Like, when you're at an at a shop, so you walk up, you go to buy, and you're like, what we what we take for that? And you pull up comps.

Like, it's just, like, the way it works. But, like, all of that's evolving. And so as as the tech and and other, areas of advancement, move forward and we have better tools, like, you're gonna see better products to support the hobby.

So, I mean, it's a long winded answer to say, basically, there's a lot of room for growth, and the innovation is, like, never been like it is right now.

So it's pretty awesome. You mentioned, Wild Wild West, and I wanna get your perspective on maybe what you mean by that.

Obviously, we met and we chatted for a while at the national. And at the national, you had, different companies promoting tech. And some companies were doing the same thing, others were doing very different things.

And it felt like, you know, there wasn't a ton of organization. Maybe I saw AI on a couple booths here and there. But what what do you mean by just, like, the wild, wild west nature of just, like, tech and the hobby right now?

Well, I mean, I think that, like I said, if you one if you actually go to the national or or a large show like CSA or, or on the West Coast and, like, Burbank and these places, like I mean, there's it's pretty low tech.

Right? I mean, people set up a booth. They put out, they put out their cards and cases, and they have a signage behind them.

And they're like, the most technical aspect is, like, do you take PayPal, Venmo? Right? And, you know, outside of that, it's it's there's not a lot of areas where you're like, okay. Well, where would, like, tech improve this experience?

And so to me, like, that in general, when you when you just kinda look at how low tech that solution is and well, it's not a solution. How low tech that environment is, I feel like that's what I mean by Wild West.

Like, if you're in the tech space and you're in, like, you've been used to, like, solving problems with technology, like, you start to look at the landscape in the surface area and say, okay.

Like, what would make this better? Like, as a collector, like, what would make this easier? And where where are the pain points and what are the things that we can do, using technology and innovation to make it better?

So, like, I I think I said this before in the other podcast, but, like, the red herring of, like, you know, going to a show and, like, scanning a card right there to look up the comp history.

Like, yeah, it's a neat innovation trick with AI and a camera, but it doesn't really work really well because at the I I in my opinion, this is just my opinion, I don't see people using it, generally speaking, when they're there.

It's much faster to, like, search and, like, pull up the comp and, like, just look at the data and, like, that's it.

Because it's a pretty you know, people are generally working deals and then you you have, you know, few minutes, five minutes, twenty minutes, however long it's gonna take.

That the the amount of time it takes for that to actually work is is pretty, pretty high.

So it's never been like this thing I feel like that's taken off. So, like, great. There's, like, an example of, like, trying to use technology for technology's sake to improve the experience, but it really didn't work.

So, largely, that's been I don't know. There's there's companies, like, that have it in their apps. I'm I'd be curious to see what their usage is in their applications.

But, you know, outside of that, it's like a pretty low tech industry. So, you know, how do you how do you find those solutions and those problems to solve, where you can actually build something that's useful?

And, you know, it's hard it's hard to see it sometimes. It is hard to see it, and I've struggled to see it, up until recently coming from tech and then entering this space where I'm not necessarily focused on tech.

But I think there is innovation happening, and we're seeing it, you know, in marketplaces. You mentioned card ladder. We're seeing live selling take place.

We I guess, when you when you think about, like, the excitement Inferno Red Technology has in this industry, in this space, while it might be challenging for some of us to see the the broader opportunity, what why has the sports card industry been such a focus for you all where you see opportunity and you're dedicating resources to it?

Well, I think it's because a lot of the investment right now is in is in, in the the b to b space more than the b to c.

So, you know, there's in our world, we're working with customers who are developing products or projects that support the community or they're a manufacturer.

Like I mentioned, we do a lot of work with Upper Deck, and we work on their internal, systems that help them develop and manage and create, their products.

And so that's that serves the hobby from the sense that we're making it making, I think, an impact on Upper Deck's business to get better products out, sooner and faster, but that's not directly affecting the consumer.

However, if we're working with, you know, DC Sports, we're working where we're actually, you know, helping them improve the experience, after their customers, which does have a direct, impact on the customers.

I also think that, you know, that's those areas for us, frankly, are, like, better thought out, more, higher demand because they're serving much larger larger audiences.

They have a, you know, they have a product that they're selling, you know, or a service that they're they're selling.

And, frankly, they're they're funded and have, you know, have revenue and income to to be able to pay. You know, I have a good team, but, we have to, you know, pay their salaries.

So, like, you know, getting paid is important. But, you know, in in general, like, that's where, you know, the the larger opportunities are for a company like ours.

But that doesn't mean that there's not, like, great ideas out there that can be built and can be funded and, can be, you know, smaller style of projects, that we could take on and work with, that are direct to consumer, like, type of projects.

So, they're limited, but, you know, that's that's gonna happen.

Do you I I think just generally in conversations I have, and I love the clarification point for the audience on the b to b focus and the b to c focus. I think that's a great, like, delineation for everyone to think about.

I I I noticed a lot of, companies in the space that the it is not like we're scared of tech, but it's more like we've been doing things a certain way this entire time, and we've gotten to where we've gotten to.

And so maybe we're more resistant to technology, or going through an evaluation or bringing on a new vendor or changing up our website or the back end.

Do you is this something you are, like is that a roadblock for you when you're getting in conversations where you're like, I know we can help this business, but perhaps they're just not as tech forward based on the way the industry has always looked?

Is that a battle you have to kinda deal with when you're having conversations?

No. I don't I don't feel like I run into that very often. I feel like at the end of the day when it comes to, investing in technology in any business, but especially in the hobby, you know, it's what's the return on the investment.

And so, you know, it it's expensive. Software engineering and and even, you know, with, you know, AI and other innovations, like, you know, around getting to market faster, it still costs money.

And, you know, a lot of the a lot of the businesses that are looking at at least, like, the the smaller, you know, hobby shops set up at a shop or set up at a at a store.

And it's funny because the amount of money that they're moving through in in terms of cards because the values are so high, like, it's kinda crazy. Like, they're like, oh, they're a smaller shop.

They just do, you know, x million. It's like, okay. But at the end of the day, like, if they don't see an ROI on, like, present for them to do it, it's not that they're afraid of tech or just how they do it.

It's just like, I don't see the value. Like and you have to be able to see the value.

And that's you know, for our clients where we're building things, like, when we're working on a project, they already know the value and they're they already have a vision for what they wanna accomplish.

And lots of times, you know, that's that's the most important thing to have when when you sit down with us because, you know, we're we build things.

Right? And we get and we understand it, and we have all the background and everything like that, and we we can share the vision.

But, you know, it starts with them having, having a vision of what they wanna accomplish and what their mission and purpose is.

Gee, I'd love to see maybe if you have commentary on the consumer side. So you're, saying, which I think is good for hobby businesses, that hobby businesses are open to new tech, and you're not dealing with a roadblock.

Do you find that, in consumers, collectors in the space, there's constantly new things being thrown at collectors.

Do you feel like the collectors are or the end consumer is more open to new tech and these changes, or do you do you feel like that might be a roadblock for them?

I think that our industry I was I say wait. Let me separate that to industries because I'm like, I feel they're both our industry.

Right? Like, collectibles and and tech. I think in the hobby that, that over the last several years, like, it's getting younger, right, which is which I think is important.

And as it gets younger and you're seeing, you know, even if you think we're like, oh, we've been in it for ten years. Okay. Well, Christopher was nine and he's 19 now. Like, so he he grew up, you know, on an Instagram world.

Right? So he's he's much more likely in his his demographic to embrace tech, mobile, you know, interaction with digital, you know, digital digital collectibles, those types of things. Like, they tie, you know, they tie to video games.

They tie, you know, they tie to interactive sports and all of these innovations that are happening at the leagues. Because remember, without without sports and leagues and fan engagement and those things, there are no collectibles.

Right? You can't you can't have one without the other because they, you know, they just doesn't there is no collectibles without sports.

So as they've been growing up and they've been, those innovations have been happening at a faster clip at I think at the sports professional league level, it's just natural for them to to to be able to, use and embrace things in in the hobby.

I think that, as it as the hobby the the older side of the hobby, some of the more experienced and, you know, veterans of the of the space, maybe a little bit less, and that's fine, because I feel like you have to you have to work and live in this space and and use the things that you like and what you love.

But you're not gonna sit there and, you know, sort through, you know, five robux trying to build a set, if you didn't love the fact that you're sitting there and going through and seeing all the cards and feeling and looking at them, I'm not a set collector.

Like, I can't I couldn't do that. But, but there are a lot of people who love to do that, and that's and that's fine.

And there's others who want to, to use the tools to see values, build collections, track it, see the see the valuation, put everything in all, you know, do those types of things, and maybe tie it back to, collector.

You know, there's all these different platforms that are making making great products, that this that people can use.

I just think it's it just definitely kinda stares a little bit younger. That's my opinion. Yeah. Do you back to businesses and having these conversations.

I I would before I met you and understood what Inferno Red Technology did and the kinda shop you ran and who you helped, I didn't know any any other provider in this space or anybody doing this.

And most most I'd I'd hear, like, there's in house development teams, but they're working on stuff. And if there's a priority, then it just gets put to the back of the list, and stuff then never gets done.

Like, I'm curious on, like, those conversations you're having with with brands, and it could be like the intro call just trying to learn more.

But how do companies who are looking to invest in further technology decide, do we use company like Inferno Red, or do we just go try to hire some more developers on our team?

Like, what do you hear or how do you kinda what do you hear when, like, those conversations are happening at the brand level? Yeah. I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty situational dependent. Right?

Depending on like you said, some of these companies are large enough that they have in house teams. Some of them are more focused on, like, project based work. In our case, we do both. So if there's a if there's a company who says, hey.

We have, some features or a backlog, and we wanna get this stuff out to market, and we're we don't wanna take on full time employees, and the burden that comes with that and we wanna scale our team, then they'll work with a company like ours.

And, you know, the small salesy pitch pieces, like, the team is senior, super experienced, qualified, and and so, when it comes to augmenting a team, like, we we are, I think the the value proposition is, you know, we come in, we do high quality work, and you don't have to explain to us, like, why cards matter in in the space, which is important.

And, so that's that's one way they they look at it. And then they mean, obviously, they have budgets and they have to look and see what what that is.

You know, sometimes they're looking at, like, what can I offshore this? Can I, you know, can I take this work and and try to get a lower, you know, a lower cost solution?

But we always feel like the values of our team is is much higher than that or equal. So, yeah, you may pay a lower hourly rate, but the quality of our team is just gonna be higher.

And I'll say the other thing too, which is crazy right now, which is all I've been talking about for the last two years and definitely the last six month six months is, you know, the the the, the, speed at which AI is is advancing and making software engineering, you know, more commoditized, frankly.

And and, making it more, easy to for non engineers and for, less experienced developers to be able to build some great things.

But at the end of the day, we feel like when you take those tools and you pair them up with experienced engineers, then you're, like, giving superheroes new superpowers.

Right? So the we all of a sudden get thirty, forty, 50%, more production out of our team. And then this other thing, for people when they're looking and saying, like, hey.

Like, I have a startup idea or I have this new thing project I wanna get out. We've built this incredible Agenta k I rapid application development platform, which is insane.

It's insane, actually. Like, everyone's trying to do it. Everyone's I'm I understand, like, when people listen to this, they'll be like, yeah.

Well, everyone's trying to do that. I'm like, no. I get it. People in companies that look just like ours are out there trying to solve the same problem, but but we've done it.

And we're running some projects, some pilot projects through it right now with real customers, you know, some of them in the hobby. And it's insane how good it is.

Like and we have a really smart team, you know, working on it. And, you know, pretty soon, you'll see a lot of, you know, other announcements and marketing and good stuff around it. But I'm, like, really proud of that.

And that's you know, hopefully, like, those kind of things will help us build things faster, get new ideas to market faster, and, at the end of the day, it'd be better for for everybody because, people will have a a lower entry point and still be able to build something that they can ship, which is you know, that's the challenge.

Like, you can vibe code a lot of things, but then you go look under the covers and say, can I ship this?

And you're like, maybe not. Or they don't know. They just have no idea how it was built because the AI did it, and that's that's the differentiator, I think.

We're breaking ground talking about vibe coding in episode one here. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. You said something that I I think is so important that you probably just glossed over.

But you were talking about, you know, you're getting into these conversations with hobby brands, and it's like there's a starting point because you're a collector, you know, Ed's a collector. You know cards.

Like, how important is having the domain expertise and the technical expertise, like, putting those together when you're going off and you're having these conversations and you're trying to help these brands in the hobby from a tech perspective?

I mean, it's it's the secret sauce.

Right? I mean, I think that's the differentiator for for us and why we've we've been successful in in working and finding, new opportunities, in the hobby with companies that are making a real difference.

Like I said earlier, you know, not having to explain why a slab what a slab is and, like, why it matters, why grading matters, like, why why do comps matter?

Like, what what does it mean, you know, to to be able to do, auctions and, like, all of these different things that are in our space?

And then at the end of the day, to understand, like, yes, it's a business and these companies are are, you know, building products that are for their own business, but the hobby has, like, many facets to it.

Not everybody I mean, there's, like, huge debates out there.

Obviously, you you you might hear them all the time on, like, whether or not, the hobby is better served by people trying to sell and flip cards and invest or, you know, is it frustrating because, you know, Pokemon isn't selling at retail in a hobby shop and people get mad?

But, you know, that's that's fine.

But in our in our space, like, when you're having these conversations, like, understanding that it's not just about the fact of, like, it's you know, you're trying to make a dollar or you're trying to create a product that's going to, to generate revenue.

It's serving a community and a in a place where people really are passionate about and to get you know, bring their kids and their like, they have parents and grandparents and, you know, they have special moments with these things.

Like, it's a very emotional connection, I think, in this space when you get down to the root of of of the of the hobby and, it's it's crazy.

I mean, I think, like, if you understand that, then we can have genuine conversations with potential clients, and and they understand that we're doing it, for the right reasons.

And I think that matters. That's awesome. I have, just as a observer of tech, definitely been noticing an uptick in things that tech or need to be supported, from a tech perspective in order to get off the ground.

I'm thinking about, like, live selling. I'm thinking about marketplaces, AI, fan engagement.

You you've been, talking about different apps and things that help support that. Maybe help us understand. We see these end products that come out, but maybe, like, a little bit of how the sausage is made.

Like, what are the types of things that need to be done on the back end and, like, how long or what sort of processes go in place in order to build kind of the infrastructure behind some of these things that we see and we probably just take for granted.

Like, shed some perspective there on just, like, I don't know, like, how much change is really happening right now?

And if there's change happening from a tech perspective, is that stuff, once it's created, can be replicated across, different companies, or is it kinda case by case based on what the company needs and how they need to serve their, you know, end consumer?

Well, you I mean, you brought up, like, one of the places, that I feel like innovation and direct collector engagement, is happening the most is in the marketplaces for sure.

So, you know, obviously, you know, whatnot is a multibillion dollar, at least, in their, you know, valuations, a a multibillion dollar marketplace, where the technical team has a pretty, advanced technical blog that they show and share, like, how they build things and how they scale.

And if you're into, you know, if you're into to tech and you're you're geeky and you wanna understand how how they build what they built, like, they're very open about how they did it.

It's actually a pretty impressive, series of articles they post on a regular basis.

So if you kinda wanna see, like, how how does Whatnot do what they do, like, overlaying and be able to to process payments and connect and integrate, CLIP, all these things.

Like, they they talk a lot about that. How do you scale, you know, thousands and thousands of streams through, you know, through their platform?

So they're, like, one of those the spaces. And then and then in live selling, like, you got Fanatics Live and and eBay Live and Loop and, all these different platforms.

They're really racing to serve that same, same consumer space. So you're you know, those are, you know, obviously, breakers and people who buy into breaks, and who, are let's call it treasure hunting to say, to say non controversial.

Like, they're out there they're out there treasure hunting, which I've been known to do. So, like, if you that I feel like that's one of, like, one of the spaces where there's a lot of technology changing.

And, again, if you wanna see where how the sausage is made, like, whatnot has an incredible, dialogue going in through their their blogs and their posts and, medium.

I forget where they do it, but, that's an interesting place to do it. And we see like that in the back end in our teams. Right?

Like, they're we're not working, excuse me, with whatnot, but we work with, like, some pretty large companies that you know, it's your traditional software engineering style of work, you know, backlogs and all the all the nitty gritty that comes with it.

It's just the fact that we're, you know, you're working on something that's pretty awesome and cool. So I don't know if that answers your question.

Yeah. No. I like it. I think about, my daughter. She's turning four. My oldest next week and, you know, busy parents who are professionals and are, like, last night, it's, like, chatting with my wife, and it's alright.

What are we gonna get her? And it was, like, you know, we had some ideas. We use chat g p t, and all of a sudden within, like, five minutes, we ordered stuff off of Amazon and Target.

And as I sat down for work today, I looked and, like, literally, like, this moment of what are we gonna do to right when I sat down, there's a box Amazon box on my porch that came from that idea last night of us needing to do something.

And I think about just, like, watching television and all the apps and just can watch anything all the time, music and ordering dinner. And it's like, our lives are just changing so rapidly, and just it's all being driven by tech.

And so we've got these expectations that are higher than ever on speed and quality. Do you find that those same expectations are kind of infiltrating into hobby businesses where, yeah, they run the business, but they're also consumers.

And they're also dealing with those certain instances in their lives where they need things fast and they're trying to eliminate workflows.

I'm just curious, like, when you're having those conversations with leaders at these businesses, how they view kind of the the work that they're doing and how tech can drive it forward to not only make their company look better, but improve the lives of the people who are using their products and services?

Yeah.

I mean, I think, like, everybody, they want to serve their clients, the best they can and get you know, if you're for example, if you're if you're a breaker and you you you rip a product and then you ship it, and the the expectations are crazy now.

When it first started, like, it was like, yeah. I'll get that eventually. You know, now people are expecting you rip you rip on a a Monday and it better be there by Wednesday, or something's wrong.

Like, you know, and then, you know, other clients, you know, one of our one of our clients is, you know, DC Sports eighty seven, and so they they wanna process as many cards as they can as fast as they can because they know their clients are shipping them valuable products, and and they're putting their investment into the hands of of their their team and, you know, they're gonna set it up and put it through their system and get it online and, you know, get the product through you know, it's built in four days of of auctions or, you know, pick a pick a color out couple other auctions, but generally speaking, it's four days.

And once those things sells, like, they collect the money and you and you wanna get the payout.

And so, you know, they invest in, making those type of improvements, for their customers so they can process, sell, ship, and pay as fast as they possibly can.

And, I think, you know, when you have companies like that investing in it, they're not just doing it.

Obviously, they can scale. Right? The, you know, the more they the more they can, consume and enlist, that's better for their business.

But I also know that know that team and know that they, know, they care very much about being able to, to make that experience the best it can be, for the people who trust them to do that.

So, yeah, I think there's that's the kind of, people in the hobby and businesses that we wanna work with.

I think what's gonna be fun about this series is that, Inferno Red has already worked with so many hobby businesses that, the listener out there have all used.

And so you mentioned DC Sports eighty seven. I do a regular show with Tory and team, and I get a little bit of an inside scoop on just the sheer volume of what's going on in that object operation.

And it's just absolute insanity. And it's like, how are you able to keep things going when that many cards are coming in on a daily basis and getting processed and listed and selling?

It's just wild. So maybe since I I think DC Sports eighty seven would be a great kinda case study to dig into a little bit with you.

And maybe we start here. Maybe, like, all the details you wanna share, but, like, what was the problem that Tory and DC Sports eighty seven were going through when you all got engaged, with each other.

And then I'm also curious because I don't know the answer to this one, but, like, how did you how did that connection get made? Maybe let's let's start there, and then we can get into some more detail.

So I was introduced to Tory well, I was introduced to DC eighty seven. I was a customer. So I a friend of mine, shout out to, Game Time Cards, the shop in Florida, my friend, Andrew Greenberg.

They own a shop or he owns a he's a a partner in a shop in Florida, and introduced me to GameTime cards or, introduced me, I'm sorry, to DC Sports eighty seven, as a customer.

So I it was the first time I, like, packaged up a a Kugel box, taped it up, wrote my name and number on the outside of the box, went to FedEx, and, like, shipped it.

And I was like, hope it shows up. Right? You know, it's kinda crazy. When I talk to people about, like, that process, I mean, that's actually that part hasn't changed.

There's an interest sidebar for one second. There's, like, that idea of shipping valuable cards in boxes or packages, like, that is the one thing where I feel like has not changed at all.

Like, FedEx doesn't offer not like, more than a thousand dollars of insurance, and you can upsell you know, you can buy there.

But, like, at the end of the day, we all know if we're putting, you know, a $19,000 LeBron James card that's going to eBay and then being sent back over FedEx, like, it's mind boggling.

Right? Like, people go to buy cars and, you know, jewelry and things like but in the hot in this space, it's completely fine to, like, ship $20. 30, $40,000 worth of card through the mail.

That's mind boggling to me in general in in but I digest I I digress. I digest. I digress. But going back to going back to Tory, so we started to I Christopher and I would we call them sell boxes.

So we would put together a sell box and ship it to DC Sports, and, and it was great. Like and it just it was it was a a really, seamless experience for us.

But I when we looked and I as a user, I was like, man, this is crazy. Like, this is really good, but, like, it could be better. And so maybe Tory would and Zach, actually.

I I think I spoke with Zach first before I met Tory. I sat down with them and actually drove down to Glen Allen, Virginia where they're headquartered and said, hey. I think we could work together.

Here's what we do. Here's here's what we've done in the hobby. And they were looking for a partner to help them do that, help them do, improve their process and experience and and a little bit of rebranding.

And so we've we've been working with them, you know, for a couple of years, on all of this, and that's how we got started with them. Now I absolutely can't give away their secret sauce on, like, how they do what they do.

But I can tell you, the stuff that we they wanted to focus on the most was, like, how can we how can we make this a better experience for our customers?

How can we process faster? How can we because that's at the end of the day, they're just getting shipment after shipment. And, like, the the faster, they can do it, faster you get paid, so on and so forth.

And that's where we've been working with them most heavily. And over the years, like, they've they've been an innovator, you know, working with companies like Haystack on scanning and labeling and things like that.

And I feel like, you know, their commitment to the tech side of it and they're not a they're they're in the hobby.

Right? They're they're not a software engineering company. Like, they are they serve, their, their clients in a different way. So being able to sit down and work with them and help them see what tech can do and how how it can work.

I mean, they have background in, you know, project management and and and some more traditional space over time because that isn't, you know, what they've always done, especially Tory.

But at the end of the day, like, being able to partner with them and share with them, ideas and have them, you know, share ideas with us, it's been it's been awesome.

And I think that the end result is, you know, a a platform and an experience that, is is top notch.

So For sure. And I can say so not as not only is there a partner, but then also a user who've gone through the experience and just, like, through the roof impressed by what I experienced.

And, I have I don't think maybe Tory would, remind us talking about him publicly, but you I listened to you talking, like, you said the word open.

Like, I like, in my conversations getting to know Tory, like, definitely open minded and wanting to have dialogue and conversations.

Do you do you find that, like, Tory's mindset and listening to kind of a subject matter expert and you're identifying, like you're like, this is good, but I think we can make things faster.

Do you do you find that his mindset around technology and openness to listen and learn is the way most individuals operating a business in this hobby are?

Or do you think Tory's kinda like the exception and the maturity curve is, you know, a little lagging behind what the way he's processing and thinking about things? Are you asking me if Tory is exceptional? Yes. Tech exceptional.

Yeah. When Tory listens, yes. Tory is exceptional. Look. At the end of the day, like, you know, I'm not the one working on a day to day basis with Tory. We have two people on that team, Michael and Ella, who are working with him.

And what's cool about it and this is just in you know, this is just the way, hopefully, any software engineering team works when they work together with a client.

We do. And I know other companies do this too, but I feel like we're, you know, we're just kinda naturally genuine about this, which is a rapport is created, you know, subject matter expertise.

And then over time, you know, they just work really, really well and in sync. So, you know, Tory and Michael and Ella, like, they just share ideas.

Michael knows the business, I think, well enough at this point and how, you know, the technical impact of making changes, what that will have on their business and what that means and, you know, when you have to make a decision of, like, do you spend time, which is money in our business.

Right?

We're we're, you know, basically a time and material and project based for the record, but in this case, time and material type of engagement. You know, do you wanna spend the time investing in, you know, improving that or changing it?

And they can have those conversations because they work so closely together. And I think Tory is you know, all joking aside, I think he's very, very, easy to to talk to and have those conversations with.

You know, some clients, you know, in my, you know, my history of doing this for thirty plus years haven't always been that way.

I mean, most are, but, like, sometimes it can be hard to to get your point across when you're trying to help somebody.

But in the case of DC Sports eighty seven and Tory specifically, like, that's our team hasn't had that experience at all.

Like, it's been mutually beneficial for us to go through and and, discuss things and really talk about the return on the investment and, like, what the impact will be and what the alternatives are.

And he gets it. And so they just there's not a lot of, like, management per se that has to happen there. They just work so seamlessly together. You know, some teams are different.

Like, other teams, we have other in the in the hobby where we have, more structure in place for business, typical business, structures like project management and and those types of things. So it all depends on the client.

We're gonna in future episodes, we're gonna get probably a little more granular on specific topics, but definitely wanted to treat this one as just like an overview of just, like, tech, the hobby, what Infernal Red Technologies is saying.

As we're maybe around in the corner on this chat, I think maybe what's what might be challenging for maybe some individual collectors in the space will be is when they see brands that are changing things, doing things, and wondering how is this eventually going to benefit me?

I've been collecting a certain way, or I've been doing this, the hobby a certain way for years. How do you envision that?

Like, how do you envision, like, the role of tech in the hobby and how that will dramatically improve, the experience for all of us who are there's many different flavors of the hobby, and we're doing a lot of different things.

But oftentimes, we we can't see how these things that we're doing can be better. Like, how do you view the role of tech in just enhancing the overall collecting experience moving forward?

I mean, it's I mean, it's gonna sound a little bit cheesy, but, like, I feel like it has to I think Tim from Compsi said this before to me once.

It's like, it has to, like, bring, like, joy. Like, collecting I think they actually have it on the wall of one of their, like in their office.

It was like a core fundamental principle of their business. You know, collecting and and the and the art or the science, whatever you wanna call it, of collecting has to to make people happy and bring some joy.

And I think that's what tech has to do. And I think it's not just limited to collectibles in the hobby. You know, I think in, for example, in, like, sports, like, there's fan experience and engagement.

And a lot of the leagues, in the sports industry, if I go to a lot of sports tech events, and if you're like, oh, there's so much time and energy being spent on, you know, how can technology be applied, for fan engagement?

And, fundamentally, it's like, it has to make the product and the experience better. And I think that's true in this hobby, in this industry as well.

Like, I would I wanna see, you know, solutions that make the experience better, whether you're at a hobby shop or you're at a show or you're breaking or you're just putting a collection together.

Like, it it things that can enhance the experience and make it, more enjoyable. Like, I think that's what we're gonna see, you know, more tech applied to.

I mean, there's all these, like I said, like, there's all these, like, technical reasons to to try different things with AI and so on to to solve problems that may or may not actually exist.

But if you come back and you step out and you look at, like, okay. Well, what can we actually do that we can, you know, use use these tools to make the experience better, especially for, like, the younger generation of collectors?

Because they're gonna be more, frankly, adaptive and willing to engage and adopt new, new technical solutions and products and so on.

And if they find that it it makes them happier and makes it a much more enjoyable experience, then they're gonna they're gonna use it.

So I feel like that's where the energy energy should be applied and hopefully, you know, we get a chance to work on some of those things.

I'm excited to dig in and talk about more of these topics in future episodes of Built for the Hobby.

Just letting the listeners know infernored. com, Great place to go if you're interested in learning more about what Scott and his team are doing.

We'll put the link in the show notes and, put some info in there, to contact Scott if you are interested in if you're a business and you're interested in kinda exploring ideas.

But, Scott, I think this was a good first episode in the can covering some ground, given a case study, sharing your perspective.

I know we don't have the whole thing planned out yet, but I'm excited to dig into future episodes with you and your team. I think there'll be a lot to talk about. Yeah. Likewise.

I appreciate the the opportunity and the form, and I think that it's, that, you know, the the the cross between tech and the hobby and sports, frankly, you know, finding ways to use technology to make fan engagement better in in sports and then tie that back to collectibles.

You know, obviously, like, there's big shows like Fanatics Fest and those things where they're trying to, like, do this crossover, but I I I I preach it anywhere I can, where I say, like, there's gotta be a way, a better way to engage fans at these events, you know, and use and leverage collectibles and athletes, especially on things like emerging leagues and, you know, obviously, the NBA, NFL, like, NHL, like, these big leagues, like, you know, like, you're not gonna get LeBron to show up at, you know, a signing.

Although, at the national, Giannis and his brothers were there, right, you know, looking at his card. So it's it's not too far fetched, but, but there's all these different ways of, like, tying these things together.

And I really hope, you know, over the next several episodes, we get a chance to kinda dig in and and bring people in and talk about it and geek out.

It's gonna be fun. Until next time, looking forward to more of these conversations. Thanks, Scott. Thanks, Brett.