We're back with another episode of Built for the Hobby. We are we'll be exploring the how in today's episode, building hobby tech in the day to day with my good friends from Inferno Red Technology. A little bit different this time.

We have unlocked a new character. We are bringing someone new to the table. We do have Scott here, as always. But this time, we're bringing in Ed. I will let you all know Ed is was my first point of contact at Inferno Red.

Just sharing, some messages back and forth on Instagram. Ed is a collector. Ed is a developer, and he will be very helpful as we're exploring the how. But without further ado, maybe, Ed, I'll start with you.

How's it going? Going good. Thanks for having me. Glad to glad to join. Scott, how are you? Oh, I'm great. I'm glad that, there's another person here to, to riff off of and dive into the stuff that we're gonna talk about.

So yeah. And and and Ed's amazing, man. He's, like, he's one of our best developers, and, he's a die hard hobbyist and collector. So it's it's fun to to have him on our team and to work on these projects that we're working on.

Ed, I wanna maybe just off script a little bit, but talk a little bit about your collecting and what you collect, and where people can find you.

Yeah. So, I mean, when I was a kid, I I loved collecting, sports cards, mostly baseball. I did I did collect a lot of basketball as a kid, mostly like Grant Hill, Michael Jordan.

And then it, you you know, it went away once I got into, like, high school. But, actually, when we started working with some of the clients in the in the hobby space, that that's what brought me back into it, back in, like, 2019, 2020.

And, luckily, I kept all all of my stuff. It's it's mostly just, like, junk, but it's still cool to go through. And and so that, like, kind of, brought it all back.

And, of course, a lot had changed since since the nineties, and so getting all caught up on that. But, kinda just picked up where I left off. Like, I I I remember loving Finest when I was a kid.

And so I I I I kinda jumped back into that and saw, like, where that had gone. And and, so yeah. I mean, now I I I, mostly just collect baseball just because it's if I try to, like, go too too many sport, it just gets crazy.

So I I mostly stay in baseball, and I kinda go, like, a a lot of the nineties, stuff, mostly in the finest, product.

So, like, Chipper Jones, Kenny Lofton, a lot of the the Cleveland Indians from the nineties are are, like, some of the, players I like to collect from that era.

And then in the modern stuff, I, like, mostly just collect nationals and then, like, some of, you know, some of the, like, Mookie Betts, I love collecting him.

And, so, yeah, that's that's kinda where where I'm at. Mostly baseball, mostly finest. And then I have, I post most of what I have on Instagram, which is a dev collector.

Yeah. Appropriate handle. Everyone, make sure you give Ed a follow at dev collector. And I'm I'm excited about this conversation. And we promise, and we were chopping it up ahead of this.

We're we will try not to get super technical with interview, but we wanna just get into kind of the how and just try to get some understanding from, an individual who's actively building in this space, kind of the day to day and what he's going through.

But maybe we start up with process and just talking about the process to build technology in the hobby. I think we as, collectors, we just see the end product most of the time. It's like, ta da. Company launches product x.

But maybe we start with that, like, why the process to build new products in the hobby is so important, from your perspective, Ed? Yeah. I mean, it's really not different than the process we use for for any other industry, I think.

We we always wanna start with understanding the mission, understanding the the the problem that we're trying to solve. We work with stakeholders to break that down into smaller chunks, create a backlog, prioritize that.

But I think what what's unique about us specifically and and, like, what we do with with the clients that we work within the hobby is the fact that we are collectors, and so we understand the problem or the mission or we understand, like, the context that their mission fits into.

So, like, why why you're trying to do this and why it matters and the type of people that you're trying to, please or or the the type of people that are, you know, the target audience, the end user.

So by understanding that, I think it makes us, makes a lot easier for us to, like, work that process, not to mention just having a passion behind it, which I think we'll probably get into a little bit more.

But, but, yeah, I mean, that it's a it's the standard software development practice that we've been doing forever and, just being able to apply that to an industry that we know, like, very well and and and love.

How how how important has it been in this, Scott or Ed, either one of you, just in terms of, like, the engaging opportunities with different hobby businesses to be able to speak the language and actually know kind of the motivations and buyers.

Like, how important has that been in order to build connections with kind of some of the, clients that you all work with? I mean, I think that I mean, I think that's the differentiator. Right?

We talked about that in the past that, one of the cool things that, if if you haven't listened to the, Passion to Profession, episode that we did about, my son and I and and getting started, which then led to Loop, and meeting Eric and and, getting started on that platform, which I was the, you know, the lead architect on the iOS side.

That that happened because we were at the national, and we were we understand the hobby inside and out.

And and, you know, I've told this story before where, like, we I own a software engineering company, and I have we have expertise in in this hobby since, you know, for the last ten to fifteen years with collectors.

And that that kind of, network effect of connecting the dots and then being able to start and work on these on these, projects that end up be having pretty high visibility in the industry, especially in in terms of, like, how you kinda elevate the brands into you know, you start with Loop and then we're working with eBay and Golden and thing and Upper Deck and things like that.

That happens because we understand intimately, what it's like to be collectors, what matters, what that user experience is like.

We can you don't have to tell us, like, why why grading matters, why cardboard matters, those kind of things.

The difference between, you know, on card and and sticker autos and, like, the delta in pricing and, I mean, all these little things that people, frankly you know, my son is works at a hobby shop, Continental Cards in Ashburn, Virginia.

You should stop by. And these, customers come in all the time, and they're just learning the hobby.

And, like, they have those kind of questions and, you know, you think about it how far along you know, if you have that built into your software engineering team and you're building product, that's a huge advantage for you as a as a company trying to get a product to market, that you have a team that understands, you know, not just the mission and purpose of, like, why, but also, like, what matters.

And so I think that's critical.

And then from my internal from my team perspective, having somebody like Ed, who's, you know he's in many cases, he was already a customer of the product that we're building, or he learned something new about the hobby that he then just brought into, you know, later projects or his own personal collecting life, which which is, I think, something that, as you start to get more people on these these projects, you can start to say, like, hey.

Like, look. Thirty, forty, 50% of our team knows knows the hobby or worked in it.

I think that's huge. Which, by the way, Ed is sleep you're he's sleeping on the fact that he is, like, one of the largest Chipper Jones collectors on the planet and has, like, a crazy, rainbow collection for, for, Gold's 50.

So I just wanna point that out. When I, when I hit the ten year market in for no red, Scott actually gifted me the 1999, finest, PSA 10 as, like, a ten year anniversary gift.

So What a boss. What a see. That's for it. Red. The CEO hands out cool cards. It was No bonus. Just a just a straight up Chipper Jones card. I love it.

Shout out. Yeah. Go check out some Chipper Jones cards at Dev Collector. But, Ed, let's let's maybe talk a little bit about kind of your your day to day. Like, how many projects are you working on at once? How are you managing them?

Like, what what does that look like on your end? Well, it I mean, it depends. Year to year, it's different. I I usually have one main project I'm focused on, and that's, like, my my main, the main client I work with.

But there's been times where I'll I'll have two or three, going on at the same time. Or maybe I'll I'll have one main project, and then I'll, like, support a team that's working on, you know, on one of these.

Like, I I on DC Sports, '87, I I wasn't on that day to day, but I was helping with with certain aspects of it, like, from the architecture standpoint and, like, some of the the the DevOps automation pieces and things.

So yeah. I mean, it, it just depends.

But, I mean yeah. I mean, he's he's involved in so many things. Like, he's, you know, not just the software engineering side of it too. Like, Ed is Ed and I are the well, not Ed and I. I'm sorry. Ed is my go to.

When we go to the national, when we're at CSA, and we're talking about, meeting with clients who are in the hobby, like, he is the person, that is at the table with me because, for all the reasons I just said previously, like, the knowledge, the background, you know, being able to to hear what, you know, somebody like, you know, Tim at CompSe when we were sitting down with him and talking about mobile, what you know, you didn't have to explain to him what CompSe does and and why it matters to the hobby.

So, you know, those are those are the types of things that I want, Ed to to be involved with because of his expertise.

And then and then as he said, like, I think it's critical to have him, just be a a little more than a single project consultant because it's good for him.

It's good for diversity of of knowledge on the team and also gives us a chance to to continue to build, you know, that subject matter expertise, in the hobby, and kind of create a a a single point of subject matter expertise that we can then share across the teams.

So I think part of the the goal, right, of us, you know, collaborating is to get people out there thinking about projects they're working on where, engineering or development support is needed or wanted.

I think there's a struggle, especially from nontechnical individuals in the hobby who run businesses, how to frame up their problem, or how to even communicate their needs and wants to, you know, people who actually do do the work.

And I I I feel like in talking with you you guys, it's like, this is what you do. It's like you regularly are having these sorts of conversations where you're sourcing these ideas or innovations that these businesses wanna do.

But I I'm curious, like, how, like, ideas of a prospective client move from just, like, a conversation to concept to feature to actually code and where the work is being done.

Like, maybe help us understand and especially for those out there listening who might be working on something, who have thought about doing something technical, but don't even know where to start.

Like, maybe talk a little bit about just, like, that workflow of client interaction that might just be an idea in someone's head that eventually ends with Ed getting down under the hood doing the work.

So, I mean, I'll start it off and let let Ed kinda dive into, like, what it's like on the technical side, and he's there in, obviously, in the beginning.

So our process is is pretty simple. Like, we have a like, a lot of companies we follow, you know, we try to keep a pretty tight, lean process so we can get right into building the solutions and get to market.

So we do a discovery session first. So if somebody comes to us with a concept or an idea, we sit down with them and, we'll have a first meeting, and then we'll kinda get the gist of what it is that they wanna do.

And then if they wanna move forward, we'll we'll engage with, like, a paid discovery session to sit down and say, okay.

You know, it's pretty low cost, but it's just, like, it takes time and energy, obviously, to to pull everything together and understand enough to be able to give somebody, a full kind of scope and what that would look like and how much it would cost, potentially to to get started and do what they wanna do.

Because, you know, we we love to build for the hobby of, obviously, running a business, and we and and need to pay my team. So, you know, we have to we have to size it, and and come up with a budget.

And then from that point on, that's where, you know, Ed's involved in that and helps, and other people on my team for depending on the type of clients we are working with.

But, for a lot for all this for all of the collectibles and the hobby, work that we do, I just the primary person who then breaks all that down into, structured work and says, okay.

Based on our, you know, fourteen plus years of experience at Infernal Ed and his years of experience in general, Like, what is that gonna take?

And then we walk that through with the client and say, here's here's what we think it looks like. Here's what the team might look like, and here's how long we think it would take, and do you wanna move forward?

And then, you know, that's they say, great. Yes. We send paperwork and contracts, and then we get started. And and then Ed takes it from there. Yep. Yeah.

I mean, I I I obviously, I love writing code, but I one of my favorite things is that discovery phase, phase, like, learning the problem, talking through the problem, whiteboarding out different solutions, finding things that the client might not have thought about, at you know, adding to the the scope sort of like it's and then when it's when it's a project that's in this space, it's even more fun because a lot of times I have, like, personal opinions about about it or personal preferences that can help, influence the, the project.

So I I love that initial discovery phase. And then, of course, getting to the point of actually building it is is fun as well.

But, but, yeah, I mean, that's that's a lot of fun. There's there's another model to it too, Brett, that where, you know, that's that's what happens when somebody is asking us to build a full project.

But in fact, in, like, some of our largest clients that we work with, you know, we're actually, what what the industry would call staff augmentation, but, you know, we're essentially part of the team and work and we're coding side by side with with, that that organization software engineering, teams.

And in that case, like, you know, we're just we are we, number one, give, that company the opportunity to to get work done faster, and we're an extension of what they already have without taking on the burden of a full time, full time employee, which a lot of companies like to do so they can scale scale their resources up.

That's a very business y thing, obviously, consulting thing, but, like, with that's when we're in that situation, I think that the cool part about it is I mean, we're a smaller company, and one of the things that, compliments that we get is, like, it seems like you were always here.

Right? Like, you just started and you're just part of the team. And and we we like to say that we our my my team is awesome. I'm never gonna shy away from saying that. And that I know that when we're there, we make their team better.

And that's kinda like what we hang our hat on. So, you know, the hobby as you said in the beginning, like, you know, concepts and ideas and things like that, there's so many.

There's just so many, I think, low hanging fruit and opportunities in in the hobby that, there's no shortage of people having ideas that are probably listening out there and trying to think, like, well, how do I do that?

And, you know, I know we're gonna get into a little bit discussions of, like, how if you have an idea now, like, what do you do? Like, what are your options?

You know, it's not just us. Like, it's you know, there there's things and tools and ways that they can get started now to bring some of those ideas to at least to, like, proof of concept and, and then and go from there.

But I'm I'm excited to kinda see what happens with, you know, AI and tech and everything that's happening right now and if it produces some new new concepts that we haven't seen yet.

Ed, you mentioned, the fact when you're talking about, kinda getting in and doing discovery, you mentioned, you've got an opinion. And you've got an opinion, right, because you're a collector.

And I I wanna maybe dig in. And if you have any examples or just times where the fact that you collect and you're in it, like all of us who are listening, helped influence or gave you an an idea that you then brought to a project.

And that maybe wouldn't have happened unless you weren't in the weeds collecting cards like the rest of us.

Yeah. I mean, it it's it's happened a lot. It it a lot of times, it's little stuff, or maybe it's even finding a bug that, isn't as obvious to somebody that's not, like, using it from that perspective.

I, having a hard time thinking of any, like, specific examples, but there has definitely been times where I I've said, well, what about the like, may maybe I collect differently than the client, or the stakeholder, or maybe their perspective is more from the, like, they're trying to serve people that may want to invest in cards or buy cards, to try and, like, resell.

Whereas, like, I might be thinking of it from a perspective of, like, how do you just buy cards and then look at your collection as a whole, or how how can you, like, find cards that you might be missing more easily?

So stuff like that. I think it's a lot of times, because almost all products, it seems like they're based around, like, buying and selling, whereas, like, I personally only like to buy, and I don't like to sell.

So that that perspective, I think He's a hoarder. He's a hoarder. Right? You know? That's why nobody can find any Chipper Jones class lines. Like, they're all in ads. I try. I try.

But, yeah, I think that, that that's, But, Ed, you had a like, you were we you and I were talking yesterday in preparing for the show, and you were talking about how when you were working on loop and and you would, you know, you would you would go in at night and and use the the app to, like, you know, to do your own shopping and watch breaks and then come in the next day and be like, hey.

I was using it and, like, we gotta change some things. Like, that has a good story of how you got influenced by I mean, yeah.

That that would happen. Own behavior. Yeah. That happened a lot with with Loop and ComC. I mean, just, like, yeah, all my own time spending probably way too much money.

But, you know, if, like, find something or or you'll be using it, going through, like, a user flow, testing that user flow, and then, like, an idea will spark.

And so being able to go back to the team the next day because, like, another part of what we do is we we meet with our clients every single day. We do daily stand ups. And so, that allows us to iterate fast and make changes.

So, like, if, yeah, we if we're playing with the app at night, the next day, we come to the table with, like, a different idea or we find something that maybe could be changed, we're we're in a position to, like, iterate on that quickly, change, pivot, you know, fail fast type of a thing.

Yeah. I I, I look at the hobby so often, and part of what excites me about doing this show is that it I feel like the hobby is very nontechnical just in general.

And there it's a lot of fun to bring kind of the this idea of tech and innovation, this conversation to the forefront.

And so, like, I don't do what you all do, but I would imagine, like, my my my perception is that it it it might be challenging to get the point across of why technology might make a or the addition of certain technology might make a business process better for people who've been running hobby businesses a certain way for a very long time, and it's been sustainable.

Is is there anything uniquely hard or challenging, about building, tech in the hobby and just the general audience and the the the profile of people that you're working with on a on a day to day basis?

I mean, I I I do think you're we're building for something that does have a very diverse perspective.

People are gonna be using these things for all different reasons, or or or, you know, motivations and things like that. So, I mean, that that can be difficult. But that's also, a lot of times, more on the product owner's side of things.

Whereas on for us, you know, we while we might be a part of those conversations and how to solve those problems, like, that's usually I think that's a very difficult thing because, like I said earlier, you know, you got people using it in one way, and they're using it in another way.

And how do you make sure that you're addressing all of those needs, and prioritizing that properly? And for me personally, one of the hardest things about working in this hobby is the distraction.

I mean, when I was working on the comm c, I'm literally looking at carbs all day long, you know, like, working on the search feature, working on the, you know, the the filtering and things like that.

I mean, it got to a point where I had to change, like, the test terms I was using because I I needed it to be a subject I didn't care about.

So, like, I would search for something that didn't matter to me. Because I for for whatever reason, I just always searched Jim Tony.

And so I and then, you know, a new thing will pop up and I was like, oh, wow. And then next thing I know, I'm, like, digging into to something else, and and then I forget what I was even testing.

So, that was certainly one of the, you know, hardest things. I mean, it's maybe not what you were going after, but that that's something that I it's a fun distraction, but it it's it's a distraction nonetheless.

Uh-oh. No. I love that. And it, although I'm not working on anything technical, I can relate 100% with where where you're coming from.

What I get into the just how you all work with hobby clients and just we've touched on a little bit, but just how clients bring ideas, although some might not be fully fleshed or baked out.

But but how, like, that process starts where ideas come your way, like, what the process is, like, what is an ideal scenario for you all, from a client perspective, what are the nice to haves when someone's bringing new ideas your way, and just trying to create, build something where it ends up being productive on both sides where no one's really, taking up too much of of each other's time just talking in circles.

Like like, talk about that ideal process when a client brings a new idea to you all. Yeah. Generally speaking, I mean, it's a pretty common process across the board for us, whether it's collectibles or anything else.

However, like, again, with the collectibles space, it it many of our clients, we actually approach them because as users of theirs their products, we're like, hey. We think we can help you here. We create, an opportunity for ourselves.

With some of the more recent ones where people are coming to us with ideas and concepts, you know, some of them are from, like, just literally back to the napkin, type of, type of ideas, to you know, we have a product out there already in place, and we need to add x y z features.

And like I said, we follow a pretty similar process across the board. So we go through that, you know, first, we need discovery, you know, estimate build, release kind of cycle.

And and that part of it, when we get into, the nitty gritty on the collectible side, you know, we the cool thing I think about it is that we start to we start to get exposure, I think, to especially with some of the companies that we've been working with recently, like DC Sports and and and those guys where they're using technology.

They're kinda pressing, the limits of what, what's available, and they're working with innovative, innovative companies to to make them better at what they do.

And, we get the advantage of, like, working on cool things and getting exposed to that ourselves because we're we're doing the integrations. We're doing the the the dev work. So that's a little bit different, I think.

And because then that translates to when we're walking around the national and we're like, oh, you know, if you took that idea plus this idea and put those together, that might be something that the hobby could benefit from.

So in in more in this industry than, frankly, than some of our other client spaces, you know, Ed, myself, and some of the other members of the team are also out there thinking of concepts and ways to use tech to solve problems or to build, you know, build an idea, that we're not, you know, necessarily doing in some of our other industry areas.

So, you know, that's a little bit different in how it's a long way of coming around to say, like, how we work with them maybe eventually or or conceptually about the same in terms of, you know, process, but there's that unique aspect of, being such fans of the industry that we try to think ideas of ourselves for ourselves.

Is it is it because, like, this is your hobby too, and you're you're into cards, and you're constantly thinking about cards when you're not working that you're you're you've got these prescriptive ideas that you're maybe sharing with clients just based on your own passion?

Some, but I'll put Ed on the spot right now. He doesn't even know when to ask this question, but, like, there's you know, we've been trying to to advance our skills in certain things and areas and AI and data and things like that.

It's like a lot of consulting companies are. But Ed's working on a pretty interesting checklist, application just because he's a collector, and he wanted to find a better way.

So, I know, Ed, did you wanna say anything about your your app that I just literally put you on the spot about?

I love it. This is real time podcast radio, Brett. Let's let's let's see what he has to say. Yeah. I don't know if I'm if I if if I'm ready to talk about it just yet. Alright, Lee. We'll keep it we'll keep it a secret, but but Yeah.

It's not possible yet. No. I'm curious. Oh, wow. I didn't realize. I didn't know that it was, it was in stealth mode. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Way to go. I guess my retirement He's like he's he's like, you're fired, Scott.

Well, let's yeah. Well, yeah. Let's maybe just talk about just, any specific client examples. I'd love to learn just, like, the the agility that you all work with when you're, like, going through your process.

And then, like, if you discover something that's maybe unexpected or might user behavior that might send you in another direction, like, has that has that come up?

Like, even though you've built this process and you've got this idea these ideas on what you wanna do, When you get under the hood, you see something, and then because you see that thing, you you move in another direction.

Has there been any of those kind of examples that have come along the way with with hobby businesses you've been working with? One of the first things that comes to mind for me is is, again, with with ComSee.

You know, we had designers. We had very well written specs and requirements, and all of that. And so we were working on the search feature and, building it to spec, building it to the requirements, matching what's been on comc.

Com for however many years. But, you know, we we were building the mobile app, so the iOS and Android apps.

And so we were kinda mimicking the existing behavior, and and following along with those designs and specs. And then Tim used it and was basically like, no. This is this isn't at all how I want this to work.

Like, he had he had a a vision in his head that was like, when I'm using Commsi on my phone, this is how I wanna use it. And it made perfect sense once we understood it, but it was it was definitely a a pivot.

And it was and it and it was because of, like, his, like, intimate use of the product and, like, how he envisioned it, and it and it mattered, and it was important.

And so we we redesigned, we redid the designs. We we, redid, like, sort of the interface and all that. And, again, being able to be agile makes that possible. I mean, if if I don't think we lost more in a couple of days on that.

And, but that to me, that that's what I I mean, I loved working with Tim for things like that. Like, he was he was always so close to it because, a, he's technical and and, b, he, like, he really loved it.

And so being able to, like, iterate on those things, with him, was always fun. But that was that was a big one because we, you know, we thought, okay.

We've got search done, and then and and then Tim used it. Okay. That was a very common, phrase on the competency team. It's like, well, wait till Tim uses it and then till we say it's done.

The ultimate test. Yeah. It is is on your end, working and building, is it I is it more ideal for you to be building a product where the final approval is someone that's super technical and who has opinions like Tim?

Or is the preference that the the individual on the other end is just, like, putting all their trust in you because they do sales and they know nothing about tech?

Like, what's the what's the difference between kind of those two worlds and how you work? And are do you prefer one over the other? I don't know if I have a preference, but I do like dirt I like things about both of them.

Like, for example, somebody that's technical like Tim, the thing I like about that is he challenged us. Like, he he would actually challenge a a technical decision and and throw wrenches in it and say, well, what about this?

Or, you know so I I like when we do have a technical perspective, being put into it because it it it like I said, it challenges us. I think it keeps us on top of our game.

And it's also it's it's fun to be able to work with people like that and to be able to, like, go side by side and pair, with with somebody that's also technical. And, but then on the other side, I like that as well.

Of course, you have to be able to then tone the technical piece down and and and know how to talk to them and and understand where they're coming from and know that they don't necessarily know how it's being done.

They just know what they want. And and, so, I mean, I I I like them both, but I think I think I think if I guess if I had to to say, I would choose the more technical stakeholder, in most cases.

I mean, some in some cases, they can be a know it all and just make it absolutely difficult as well, but, that wasn't that's usually not To be clear, we're not saying that about Tim.

That is not how we're Tim Tim was like Tim is like the ideal client.

He he would he was awesome. Yeah. He's I I think also we've seen it both where, we've had clients over the years where it's they're super technical, and they do they the challenge is great, but sometimes, like, they come in and out.

Right? Like, if they're a manager level or director level or, like, VP of dev or whatever, And they're kinda sitting in on, like, a review or something, and they're like, well, why is this?

Why is that? And it's just they haven't been in the trenches with the team, even with their own team working side by side, and they and they, you know, they just pop in and pop out.

And sometimes that can be, that can be a frustration, point for the team, but, you know, you just have to deal with that and work around it.

And, yeah, you but you on every single project, like, you you have to have a product owner who understands the vision and what you're doing.

So, like, whether they're technical or not, like, that that had there has to be one person who understands the value of what it is that you're building and, like, what is what is the direction and what is it that, the mission and purpose and the goal of what it what you're doing.

Like, that's imperative. Like, because otherwise, you're we so it's just a very expensive spin, you know, around the block of, like, trying to figure out, like, oh, well, why are we here and what are we doing?

And you're spending a lot of money for us to kinda, like, sort and figure things out.

So when we work with clients, that's a really important thing that there has to be somebody available to be a product owner, that we call it, and product over by product owner by definition is somebody who can make final decisions and and set scope with our team and say, hey.

You know, Tim I mean, Tim would Tim's a unique individual in the sense of, like, he's the founder at the time.

He was, like, I think, CEO, and he was and he's super technical. So he's and he built everything else that was there before there was anything else. So, it was kinda his baby, so he was able to kinda wear all the hats.

But, we we insist when we work on these projects that, you know, there might not be somebody technical. We can fill those roles, but there has to be a a subject matter and a bit and a product owner expert there.

We we talked a little bit about this, Scott, you and I, and I'd love, Ed, your opinion since we've been talking about the how this this conversation is just, like, the how do you view AI's use and the proliferation of AI in an engineering role in doing what you're doing?

Especially, like, maybe it can be pointed at the hobby or it doesn't need to be.

But I would love to understand just from a developer perspective, like, how you view AI, and if it makes your work easier or it just ends up getting in the way.

Like, how are you seeing things or using it now? Initially, I was kind of one that I was skeptical. I just didn't like the idea of, like, letting go of that control.

Because to me, writing software is like a craft. You know? It's it's it's a it's a it's something that's unique to me. It's a it's a it's an expression. It's almost like an artwork, and, and I've always felt really strongly about that.

But once I started playing with it and using it and seeing that I still can have that control, it's just I can do it a lot faster. I I've I've embraced it a lot, and I I'm using it a lot.

And, where I where I see it playing a huge role is, you know, you mentioned earlier, like, if people are listening to this and they have an idea and, like, may maybe they don't have, the whole idea, you know, thought through or they don't have all of the budget that they need to to do the whole thing.

You know, traditionally, we would go through processes of, like, building proof of concepts or or things like that.

But with with the way that AI has worked and a lot of what I've been playing with lately, I I can we we we can fast track that, and really, really quickly get to a a a point of beyond proof of concept, but, like, actually seeing is this something worth pursuing with lot less investment in both time and money, and you get to that end result a lot faster.

And, not to mention, because it's the ability to do that, you know, I I could do two or three of those at a time as opposed to, like, well, in four weeks, I'll be freed up, and then I can start on that one.

Like, this I I'm excited about the fact that how much this opens up from, like, a a a time management standpoint. And, I I think there's a lot of questions to still be answered as far as, like, end result.

But from what I'm seeing and the way that we've kind of fine tuned fine tuned our process and the tools that we're using, and in front of Rev, like, the end result is, to me, is outstanding.

I mean, it's it's quality code. It's code that I have a hand in. I'm reviewing it as it's going. I'm reviewing it before it gets merged into the final, state, trying not to get too tabulated.

So being that I have all that control and I can see it and and still have, that sort of, creative architecture mindset over it, I I really like it. And and, honestly, I mean, even if I didn't, it's happening.

And so, but I I am I'm enjoying it, and I'm loving the efficiencies of it. Has there been any specific I guess, that makes so much sense, the prototype angle and, like, cutting out a bunch of steps.

And I would imagine someone in your position, like, cutting out steps and just, like, getting straight to it is and being more efficient is is always a key driver.

Is there any specific examples that you've had on the front end with clients coming to you with, something that is, maybe more real based on AI or just applications of you using AI with different clients or hobby businesses you've worked on?

Anything specifically there, that you you can share to help maybe others listening understand kind of different applications with businesses? Well, I mean, we we do have a few clients.

I I don't know if they're at a point that we could share yet. But, like, the thing that Scott, mentioned earlier that I've been working on, I've been doing that, with with this, like, sort of copiloted approach.

Am I using copilot. I'm using, Claude. But it's I'm using it to, like, build the idea as I go.

And so kind of, like, test driving this thing, like, a lot of times when we say eating our own dog food, like, that that's, that's one place that I'm using it, specifically in the hobby.

But a lot of this is also really new, and and hasn't you know, we haven't necessarily started on too many big projects on the hobby side.

You know what I mean? I mean, I would take it farther, Brett. You know, and I'm I'm a lot more bullish and probably a little more salesy on this, so I apologize.

But, you know, we do we we've we've developed, you know, a multi agent agentic framework, which is a fancy way of saying, like, you know, we're using AI to to build, and create essentially information markers, in this case, developers.

And there's a lot of companies like us doing that. Right? I mean, there's tools out there to do it.

And so that's the tools and things that we're using are not, you know, unique in the sense, like, it's an infrared thing, but the trade secret around how you bring those things together to be able to do it efficiently, effectively.

And, you know, the things that Ed is saying he can't talk about, I can tell you that, you know, we're seeing, you know, five to 10 to 50 times faster development, without us compromising the There we go.

Sorry. And because we have human intelligence involved in it, you know, we're seeing this huge you know, our process, we don't compromise the quality. We don't compromise the human aspect of understanding what it is that we do.

You know, we learn about, you know, the the concepts just as we would any other project, but the time to market and the cost is significantly faster to market and less expensive for the for the clients.

And we think that, like like Ed said, if we can do two or three of these things, it's just a game changer for the way we run our business and the way that we that we can build, and build projects.

It's not perfect. Ed has said, like, you know, you the reason why humans are still involved is because AI is not infallible.

And, frankly, you have to have a, like, trust with verified mindset when you're doing this. But, I mean, it's it's insane. Like, it is insane.

It is really, really, going to be, I think from our side of the fence, a way for us to deliver new, new projects and and and new features and things like that to to clients in a way we've just not really been able to do before.

And your point about, like, hey. People, like, being able to, like, do things faster, proof of concepts.

I mean, there's tools out there for that. And, like, you can if you're super geeky like a like a Tim, you can dive into cloud and use tools like that or, you know, there's platforms like Lovable.

But, you know, I've I've started to build into, into my own pitch that, you know, lovable's great. You can create lovable proof of concepts, but lovable's not shippable.

And so if you wanna build something that you can ship and scale and sell to customers and put out there and trust that it's going to work, same way that we've been doing for years, like, that's where we come in.

On this same thread, and it just continues to come up in my head in these conversations, but I can't stop and help but think about, like, the Michael Rubin.

Like, we're gonna 10 x the hobby, which, like, all the different facets that need to be in place in order for the hobby to ten ten x. But I would imagine underneath that message, like, technology plays a role in that at some level.

Is this world where AI is involved and continues to be more involved, do you do you view that as a way to support that initiative of 10 x ing the hobby?

Just generally, that you're a player in the space that's helping these companies be more efficient and save time, and then, obviously, you know, maybe do you think about that?

I mean, if look. Michael Rubin is listening, as he should be, the podcast, or anybody at Fanatics.

I mean, yeah. I mean, I think we you know, we'd love to work, with, companies in the hobby like, you know, Fanatics or tops in in ways to help them to do what you said. I mean, I don't know that Ruben meant that when he said it.

Like, I feel like, probably more along the lines of, like, you know, Tom Brady opening stores and, you know, top scrum basketball and, like, high quality products and, you know, working with influencers, you know, to set records on prices and things like that and, you know, bringing bringing spotlight and growth to, to a hobby from that perspective.

I think the cultural aspects of what, Fanatics is doing, Fanatics Fest and things like that, awareness, I think that's that's what they meant in my opinion.

That's what they meant by 10 x. Do I think that, technology will help? I mean, it can't hurt.

Right? I mean, I think that, there's there's opportunities, and things we haven't even thought of that are gonna come out of, like, what that that looks like, for collectors, because, yeah, not everyone's flipping cards.

Like, you know, Ed he's like he said he buys, he doesn't sell.

So, like, there's there's different, there's different collectors on the spectrum depending on what you're doing, and I think that, you need there's a unique opportunity to kind of think about how each one of those groups of people collect and, and whether you like I said, whether you're a collector or you're you're a full time, you know, seller or you're you're on a store, you know, you set up you maybe don't own the store, but you're at a, you know, you're at the local card show every week with a table, or you're just like your neighbor collecting Pokemon cards for the first time.

Like, what it's like for, you know, people just starting to with their kids because it's cyclical. Right? Especially with with, sports and and, probably poke Pokemon is obviously king in that in TCG.

And so those those kind of things where you have this constantly feeding it, you know, six year old to 12 year old, and I won't talk about the 12 to 30 year olds who are collecting Pokemon because they love it.

But, like, in, you know, the there's that constant feeder of of customers and addressable market that's coming out.

It's just never gonna stop. So, you know, I think there's always there's always opportunities for, for us to do cool things with tech.

And I wanna close this conversation out with, just what it's like for you just in these two worlds, like your professional existence and building tech for companies and now bringing in hobby businesses.

Like, what is that been like for you just, like, working at that intersection of your professional and your hobby existence?

It's it's awesome. I mean, I've I've always I mean, software development to me hasn't ever really been a career.

And so it started as a hobby when I was a teenager, and it just I was blessed that it turned into a career, but it's always been something I've been passionate about. And so then even in the non hobby stuff, I it was rewarding.

I loved it. I I love solving problems. I love seeing the outcomes. It was you know, it'd be cool if, you know, you hear it, something you worked on mentioned on a podcast or on a on the news or in an article.

But now doing it in the hobby, and it's actually something I get to use, and and it's something that, like, influences me or I have an influence on because of the fact that I'm also passionate about that.

It's like it's, like you said, it's the intersection of two passions, and and I love it.

It's super rewarding. It's a lot of fun, and it it does make I mean, it it just further makes the job not a job, I guess, if that's Ethan, like, makes any sense.

But it's yeah. I'm taking two things over and putting them together. I can just pay him with a cheaper Joan card. They don't even, like, they don't even take money. It's just like, well, Ed, we've graduated to a PSA 10 this time.

You know? Before you were at an eight or a nine, but good work on that, that project for Brett. Go go work at infrared technology. They pay in, scarce, refractors of your favorite stars from the the nineties and February.

That was fun, guys. Appreciate the time. Love talking about these, these things that you're working on and just how you go about it and mindset. But looking forward to another conversation.

Thank you everyone, for, listening, and, definitely make sure you go check out inferno red at infernored. com. Ed and Scott, looking forward to doing this again soon. Absolutely. Thanks, Brett.