What's going on, everybody? Excited for this episode of Built For The Hobby with my good friend Scott at InfernoRed Technology. We had a entire script for what we were gonna talk about in today's episode in about a minute, maybe not even a minute, thirty seconds ago. Thirty seconds? Yeah.

We just decided to flush it down the toilet. So we're not gonna share what that is because we might use pieces of that. But Scott's fired up to talk about AI, which I couldn't believe we haven't really dedicated an episode to it. So we've really got no structure or format, to it outside of my my guest here, guest host, being very passionate about the topic. But, Scott, we're just gonna we're just gonna jam on this.

How are you doing, man? Good. How are you? Yeah. I'm I'm I'm I'm like yeah.

I'm I'm excited. I think we have to to talk about AI and the the impact on the hobby and, what we're doing, what people can do for themselves as collectors. Yeah. I think this is an important topic, and, obviously, everyone's, interested in seeing, you know, how it affects them. I wanna talk about things about, like, you know, human in the loop and and human intelligence and how, you know, how does AI affect people both positively and what are the what are the gotchas, especially in this in this space.

I think that's important, and geek out a little bit on the tech side and and then, of course, like, share what we do and what we're trying to do with it both in the hobby and outside. Excuse me. I think that would be interesting to people. That's why we kinda did the you know, we we decided to go go rogue and, you know, call Philip Brewers in off off the bench and say, hey. Let's see what you can do.

I don't know if you've gotten a chance to to see this yet, Scott, but topical, you bring up Philip Rivers. Did you see that, he is interviewing with the Buffalo Bills today for the head coaching position? Like, that would be the best end of the story ever. You know? I I did not know that.

But, yeah, I'm I like Philip Rivers. I thought I thought it was a great story. I was pulling for him. He got robbed. Defense didn't come in for him in at the end of that season, you know, they they kinda got he got short short end of the stick, and then, you know, playoffs are tough.

But yeah, man. I think that's great. You know, we'll see how my Steelers do with with the head coach search. How do you deal? What what what do you what does it feel like to be a fan in the with with Tomlin not at the helm?

I know there were some fans that, you know, were tired of the one and done in the playoffs, but Tomlin was such a staple and obviously responsible for a Super Bowl. Like, how do you feel about Tomlin being gone, and what would you like in a next head coach? I mean, I do not feel bad that Tomlin's gone. I mean, I think he was a great coach, but, like, it's it's it's time to change. Right?

The same thing like Harbon in Baltimore. Like, you just can't you can't live off of, oh, I've I've never had a losing season, but I've lost, you know, seven straight playoff games, all first round. And and, you know, Steeler fans always think they're better than they are. Like, and I and I'm a huge fan, and that's exactly how it comes across as a fan. So I if they can find somebody who, you know, thinks more offensively, if we can get a good, you know, a good pick or a good free agent for quarterback if Aaron doesn't come back.

I think Aaron Rogers actually played pretty well this season, you know, and then just the ran into the buzz saw that is the was the the Houston Texans. And, I mean, they looked insane against the Steelers. So I don't know. We'll see. Like, we'll see.

I I I'm I'm glad that it's we're in all star break almost in basketball. So, like, I can stop crying about football. I love it so much, and I spend so much time. But now we can focus on how bad the wizards are and live vicariously through other teams that come to DC. So Yeah.

It's fun, and I you're preaching to the choir with a Tyrese Halliburton less Pacers struggling. It's it's it's not fun. That's crazy. Like, I I'm actually like, that's one of the things that my son and I were watching basketball. I'm like, I cannot believe how far Indiana falls without without Halliburton.

Like, it's it's it just shows you, like, how one player can make the difference between, you know, winning season, losing season. I mean, every season's different, but, like, you know, unless you're OKC, you're just you're set set for the next ten years because everybody's, like, in high school, basically. Yeah. Well, and the Wizards is an interesting thing. Like, if the Wizards fall out, they have a I'll probably get it wrong.

I think it's an unprotected eighth round pick or eight pick that if they fall out of the top eight in draft order, that pick goes to OKC. The rich get richer. Exactly. Like, I we were like we were like, please keep losing. Keep losing.

Don't start, Trey. Trey will never play for the Wizards in this season. Like, he's he's a slow recovery back. By the way, fun fact, like, there's no one in the history of the Wizards franchise that ever said they wanna come to DC to be traded to DC that I've ever heard of. That was what Trey said in the in the media that he wanted to be Trae Young if you're not paying attention to wizards basketball.

But there he is. I saw him. He was there. Anyways So so so I wanna I wanna start with maybe, like, before we get into AI, which is gonna be fun, we're just gonna dig in. Maybe New Year, your observations of just, like, the hobby, whether it's through your own personal collecting, collecting with your son, or just industry in general?

Like, are there any observations that you've made going into kind of this new year that you you wanna talk about? Yeah. I think it's a great question because 2026, I mean, we we rolled right into, you know, new products. I don't know if you were able to get any top chrome sapphire basketball. It's not a thousand dollars a box.

It's selling for $3,000 already on this on the in the open market. It's it's fun to see what Fanatics and Tops have done with their products. I think that the pin like, I don't know that anyone's actually if if anyone's from Panini is listening, I'm sorry, but I don't know how many people are actually going to miss some of their products, at least on, like, the, you know, on the the kind of the Chrome level or the, you know, the Prism. I mean, I love Prism basketball so much in football. And then select is kinda like the the secondary piece.

And I've NT football basketball, flawless football basketball. But the products that TOPS is putting out, I think, are just as good, if not better, for those same things. And TOPS Chrome was so cool to see come back with a vengeance and, you know, their inserts look amazing. Like, the glass inserts, like, they're nuts in the, I forget. I think it's I think it's touch chrome, but, like, the the Kings card, like, the play like, the playing card version.

And I know there's been some variations on that in different products over the years, but they that looks amazing. I don't know how you possibly grade them because, like, the services are insane. But so I'm excited to kinda see what happens in 2026 in that in that regard. I also think from just the hobby in and of itself, I think that this is the year you're gonna see where whatnot, if you're not paying attention, they doubled their valuation from 5,000,000,000 to 11 and a half. They just did a series f for, like, 325,000,000 or something like that.

And so live selling is going to be a defining year this year, for, you know, what are the other companies gonna do? What is eBay Live? What is Fanatics Live? Loop? Like, how are they gonna survive in against, the juggernaut that is that is whatnot?

And then I think we're gonna be at The National. We're gonna be we we've been working hard at, you know, talking to you on this podcast, and we might be, you know, putting a an event together as you know, whether it's a small trade night for collectors and and developers, to kinda get together and share their thoughts and and about what they do in tech and and how collecting is an important part of their their life. Stay tuned for that. But, I mean, I think that what we're gonna get into and talk about with AI and and technology, you're gonna see a lot more things that are built and done that will impact the collector's life, whether it's better collection management or research or, you know, what have you. There's just a huge opportunity that was kinda blocked before in the fact of, like, oh, you gotta be a software developer or you gotta know one or you gotta and, or hire a company like ours and and it's cost prohibitive that there's gonna be a lot more of that type of innovation.

We'll see. But but I think that's the kind of things that I'm I'm excited about for for 2026. All good topics and thoughts, and I'm definitely following along with the live selling component. I'm asking all people who are selling, who are using live selling, how they feel about it, and what they're going to do. And everyone I've talked to said they're putting more resources and investment in that, so that tracks with kind of what you're suggesting there.

Alright. We're gonna just we're gonna rip this, Scott. We're gonna we're gonna talk AI, unscripted. I wanna start here. Right?

You are the CEO of a company that provides developmental services. You have been following the AI kind of news and notes, I would imagine, ever since the tidal wave started forming. I would love before we get into AI in kind of the hobby, I'd love to get some understanding from you on how you have had to kind of can understand AI, what it's going to do, how it impacts you, your company, your people. Yeah. And then and then on the other side of that, like, how you're talking about it in 2026.

Yeah. I mean, you're right in terms of, like, being close to the fire that is AI. I mean, if for most people, over the last six to twelve months that are not technical or not in in in technology, You know, AI is ChatGPT or AI is that, you know, that chatbot in their, you know, their bank or their service or what have you. And, you know, now maybe they're like, oh, Gemini because it's on my phone or because I use Chrome or what have you. And and they know about Claude maybe because they know somebody who's, like, more technical and they're using Claude or Claude code.

That was, like, over the last several months, kind of what AI meant to most people. When you're in when you're in software engineering, and that's your industry like we are, I mean, we've been we've been working in and around, you know, AI as a technology for twenty, thirty years. Like, it would there's been different names for different parts of the of the, the the technical stack, like, whether it was machine learning or cognitive services. There were all these different products. I mean, Microsoft themselves had cognitive services as a name product.

IBM had, services. We actually tried to build I personally I don't I'll say we. I mean, man, probably fifteen, twenty years ago when IBM first put out their vision products where you could, like, take a picture and it could try to tell you what it is. And that was advanced at the time. Right?

You're like so I I remember I had a Steph Curry rookie picture that I grabbed off the Internet, I was like, what is this? And they're like, it's a basketball player, and he's got a ball. And and it's and it's Steph Curry because it's had his name on it. Right? Where now you could just literally take a picture of Steph with no words, no description, and it would be like, that's a Steph Curry 19 blah blah blah.

Right? Like and so, you know, the advancement has been swift and ruthlessly unapologetic about what the capabilities are. And in our world, AI is disrupting software engineering more than any other industry. And it's creating a commoditization and a and a democratization, sorry, of of what we do on a daily basis. Right?

We build custom software, and we're and I have a great team, and I'm really proud of what we do. But they these tools make it easier and easier and easier. So some of the skills and some of the things that took, you know, ten, twenty, thirty years to learn start to become done, you know, within hours. And that's scary, but at the same time, fortunately, in our position, you also have a massive opportunity. Right?

It's it's it's destructive creation in the sense of where while some of those things are going to change and maybe even some positions and types of roles that people have in in technology and in other industries may go away, like, there's also new opportunities that get created. And so for us, spending as much time in and around this tech for the those decades I mentioned. And then in the last, you know, three years or so when LLMs and, or large language models, if you're not familiar, like ChatGPT and, started to become pervasive in in this space, we really had to take a look and have a strategy. And so that is all I'm focused on right now is what can we do to create more value for our customers and to create opportunities for developers. So that's where we're starting.

Or, really, not starting. That's not fair. Like, where we are very, very quickly moving. Disruptive is a word you used, and I would imagine based on the tools and having access to the tools and being able to vibe code, it is maybe easier than ever for individuals to sell their development services to other individuals looking for them. And the end product based on the speed at which they're able to create code and create new product.

The end product isn't as quality as it would be if they were working directly with, a company like Inferno Red who has seasoned developers who are using AI as a enhancer to the process and not just that's the process. How do you combat that when you're maybe in conversations with new companies or new people who are looking to use your services but might be being sold something that is totally different in another by another vendor? I mean we've spent a lot of time working on that issue. And, you know, the the term vibe coding, which is almost it's kind of going out of fashion at this point. I mean, it it lived for about a year because the it's not so much of, like, you know, companies who do what we do using those types of, tools and methods to create something for a solution for another company that's, like, shippable and and and can be used in in their, you know, their their business.

It's more about what is it that what can we do to get to market faster, get to value faster. So none of our clients you can try this with any of anybody in in at least in our space and most most business. Like, nobody wants it to take forever. Right? Like because the typically, like, time is money is, like, legitimately true, especially in consulting when you're paying hourly rates or or you're you're you're trying to get to get a product to market.

So that time to value and that time to market is incredibly valuable. So now imagine you can say, okay. To your point, you know, we're a seasoned senior level engineering company, so we do have that thirty plus years of experience. And the thing about AI, at least today, is while it's amazing and it's really, really good at what it can do, it's not perfect. Like, it will lie to you.

It will make stuff up. You know, it's trained on models which have are imperfect, but it but it's also improving very, very quickly, obviously. But you still need to have a human in the loop. You still need to to use human intelligence to sit down and say, okay. What are the priorities?

What is the value? What are the things that we should focus on? Like, what is the actual impact to your to your customer, to your client? And then let's plan for that. Now the software engineering side of it, in our world so we we're releasing we're announcing, a new service offering called Inferno Red Accelerated.

And underneath the covers, like, there are AI tools that we use. We have a custom framework that we've built ourselves. We use other frameworks, as well, but we have our own. That is a very sophisticated geek out for a second. A very sophisticated multi agent agentic framework that has things like memory and context and ex exclusive expertise and a very important validation approach because the hardest thing about when you're using AI, especially in the the way that I just described, is getting it to do what it says it's going to do and then believing it and then making sure it did and then double checking and then asking five more times because it's, you know, it's that's just kind of the way that it works today.

So we're we're really proud of this framework that one of my lead engineers has been the architect on. But that's the tools that we use. At the end of the day, your point that you just made of, like, is it the is it the process? Yes. Like, we have a proven process for years and years of, like, okay.

Understand the mission and purpose of the business, understand the priorities, and then build software. Now the advantage of the new, platform and service I mentioned is, like, we can do that exponentially faster without compromising any quality and with, and you're still getting all of the InfernoRed expertise and way of doing it that, you know, these other companies who are big and and have budgets trust. And so my bet is that the people who work with us, the companies that work with us, they don't wanna compromise the quality of the code. They wanna trust that what ships is working that, you know, if you have a million users, which a lot like, even in our hobby. Right?

I mean, if you look at the the PSAs, the eBay, it's like these big platforms, like, don't have millions of users. Like, you can't just, like, vibe code into that. Right? So so we lean on that experience, and we use the tools to get to market. And that is the thing that where the opportunity exists in AI.

So having the the talent to be able to to develop the architectures and know where the bodies are buried so you can ship a product and then do just do that faster and over and over, that's where we're banking and betting on the opportunity for companies like ours. And we're working everyone's chasing the same rabbit. Right? We're all trying to figure out how can I use these things to make better products and services, and how do I do that in a service delivery model? I just think that we're slightly ahead.

Like and it's relative. Right? The gap is always closing, and we're, you know, we're we're obsessed with making sure that we, that we get a chance to to compete and and build great things. So, you know, I that's that's what we're doing. And and then if like you mentioned, there's software engineering, our traditional services, our premium services where developers are using tools to augment them augment their their work, and that's like giving superheroes new superpowers.

So I'm I'm really excited. I think you go through, like, the stages of, like, fear and and, oh my gosh, like, what's you know, it's like the guy who's building a deck with a hammer and nails and somebody walks up with I think I might have used this analogy before, but, like, somebody walks up with a nail gun. And they're like, oh, I have a nail gun. Oh, by the way, there's five people with nail guns. You don't even have to talk to us.

Just point to what we need to do, and they're like, oh, no. And you're just sitting there. But then you realize you're like, oh, well, you know what? They don't know how to design this deck, and, like, they don't understand which wood is stronger. And, like, maybe they will, but they don't right now.

So, I mean, I don't if that's a good or bad analogy, but that's you know, we all have gone through this, like, existential examination of, like, the impact of AI on on consulting and software engineering. And but very quickly, you have to adjust and see the opportunity, and I feel like that's what we've done. Great thoughts there. I want you to put on your AI analyst hat, and I want to maybe get some understanding for from you as not only someone who is, you know, getting up in front of people at events talking about AI, but, you know, running a company that is pushing forward on AI. How do you evaluate what is happening with AI across the hobby, whether that's from a collector perspective or from businesses using it?

Like, what are some observations you've made just in terms of the adoption of AI in the industry? Well, how do I stay how do I, analyze it? So I listened to one podcast. One related to AI. And this this is no competitor to you, Brett.

So I listen. This is a plug. I listen to the AI daily brief by Nathaniel Hawthorne. Orne. It is I've told anybody who listens that, like, if you wanna follow what's happening in the world of AI and you wanna hear it at, like, an executive level and and get some insight and not have it be, like, you know, two people going back and forth.

It's just it's like headlines and then a story. And he's gained a lot of, a lot of traction over the last couple of years. But it it to me, it's been like it reminds me of the days of, like, when you're, like, you were excited to get, like, the Beckett magazine because that's where, like, all the data or all the content was. And it was just like, that was it. That's kinda how that, frankly, that podcast has been for me.

I mean, I do a lot of research. I get a lot of articles sent to me. But, like, the AA daily brief is, like it's perfect. It's, like it's just, like, all of the information that you need, the stories around the companies, how it impacts the industry. They have geopolitical angles sometimes.

And it's and then there's there's a in my case, there's a little heavier dose because AI is so disruptive to the software engineering coders. So they lean in a little bit more on that. So there's a and it's not they they they don't claim that that's what they do, but they do because that it's relevant. So that's kind of, like, my meat and potatoes for and I listen to it every day. It's, like, twenty five minutes.

He does it. He's consistent. And then in the hobby, you know, we work. We're on, like, the bleeding edge of this. Right?

So we work with DC Sports eighty seven who put out a great video walkthrough. I forget the person the company that they did it with. Apologies. I can't call them out. But, you know, they did a walk through on their back end process and and how how they process a million cards at a time.

And and you'll see, like, they'll talk I they'll talk about, you know, the tools and things like that. But we're part of that. Right? We we help and we implement a lot of that technology, and and there's, you know, there's some AI mixed in that with, like, Haystack and and some of the the tools that they use. And then we talk with clients all the time who are in the space, you know, not to name drop, but, like, when we're talking to one thirty point or Commsi or whoever it might be and and we're building with them, You know, how can we leverage this technology to improve their products and use their data, to to make the experiences better?

And I think that, there's a couple of things. Like, data by far is going to be the king as it always is and has always been. You know, at the end of the day, people are just generally, unless they're creative and they're doing art or music, You know, they're pulling data and they're doing something with that and they're whether they're looking up the value of a card or they're looking up the checklist. So, you know, how we can work with those customers to to use their data to create a better experience for their user or come up with something net new that no one's done before. That to me is one of the things that, like, AI unlocks, for, for the industry.

And so when I'm looking across the board and saying, okay. What can we do and how we how can we do it in a way that is, you know, faster and better than we did before and our competitors can do, especially in the hobby? Because I feel like our leg up is not our is well, we're amazing at tech, but we know the hobby. Right? Like, you don't have to tell us why cards matter, why grading matters, or, like, you know, what is what's the difference between BGS nine five and PSA 10.

We have that experience, and and and that's the thing that kinda differentiates us in the hobby. But then when you take a look and say, okay. Well, what what can these technical approaches, tools, whether it's AI, when did not use AI? Right? Like, when it's just you just need to create a product that's a website and some, you know, forms over data, as they say.

You know, we're we're constantly looking at that. And I have some some pretty good friends, Ed Snyder, who was on this podcast with us a few episodes ago. You know, him and I look at it all the time because he's a he's a navigator collector. He's a geek. He's a nerd.

He's building stuff. You know, what can we do that would be cool and interesting and fun and we would use? And then work backwards into, like, what would our clients do. So sorry. That's a long winded answer, but we're we're vibing and ripping today.

We are. You mentioned the podcast, the AI daily brief, which I gotta subscribe to that. But I think about a month, Brett. $3 for Merkel free. Like, now we go.

Daniel's not listening, but we'll have to send him a link and be like, look. If you got new collector subscribers from Stack and Slabs That's right. Referral traffic, baby. Referral traffic. Let's go.

So you're listening to it be and you're getting enabled and educated on the latest and greatest. I think about AI, my own application to it, which I I it saves me so much time, energy, and resources as a one person business. I couldn't imagine life without it. But in order for me to get up to speed with it, I needed to get my hands dirty. I needed to figure out the different use cases, how to eliminate steps in my workflow, how I presented it with the right datasets in order to get what I want in the back end.

And but that was time. But because I was a believer that if I spent the time understanding how these tools work, it would help on the other side, you know, save me a bunch of time. So I'm a believer. I think when I hear individuals talk right now about AI, especially in the hobby, and this has happened to me. I've been on-site with other individuals, and they've asked me, do you use AI?

And you get that connection point where it's like you're on the same page. You're both, like, have spent that time, and you, like, start sharing stories and you pick up certain things. And then on the other side, there's individuals who, you know, treat, ChatGPT as, like, just another form of Google where it's just, like, they're there's they're not enabled on, like, how you can really use it to transform what you're doing. So my question is is, like, the enablement piece. I feel like there's still so much opportunity whether it's on the business side, getting businesses to understand and get them enabled on AI and how it can help them.

And on the collector side, it's like, how how do you think about the enablement piece, whether it's on a business or a collector side and getting people up to speed on, like, what's what's even possible? Yeah. I mean, so that's something I think about a lot, honestly. Like and I don't have, like, a specific answer on the enablement for the hobby. I think that this is a this is a personally interesting thing for me when I'm sitting here.

I actually talk about it with my son probably more than anybody and, like, saying, hey. You know, I'm in the hobby shop and, like, how are you tracking, like, your sales? And or I'll talk to the owner of those Continental Cards where he works here in Ashburn, Virginia. That's you know, what what is how are you managing, like, the the customer engagement? Are you doing anything, like you know, there's all kinds of tools and stuff out there already, but, like, where is there an opportunity to to build something and and and do it in a way that's, you know, cost effective and and easy for them to use or make an experience better?

Because, like, there's I look at it like there's we kinda categorize in my world, like, AI three different buckets. There's there's what I call build AI, which is, like, we're using AI to build software. So both AgenTic, which is the idea of, like, you ask it to do something, it goes off and does it, and you continue with whatever you're doing. And then maybe it's multi AgenTic, which is you tell it to do something, and then it goes asks a bunch of other AI agents to do it, and then you go do something. Or augmented, which I discussed when I said an engineer has uses Cloud Code or some of these other tools, and and they're just, like, kinda coding with, like, a junior developer sitting next to them.

And then there is AI solutions or solution AI, which is a product that somebody has that uses AI as part of the solution itself. So, like, I use a financial platform that has an AI built in, which is using, like, one of the main frontier model companies. I think it's probably Claude, or if I could if I had to guess, maybe it's, Chad GPT's models. But it was, like, really I started using it, and I'm in this space. And I, like it was essentially, like, a ChatGPT over my personal finance data, which is all categorized and clean.

And all of a sudden, I'm it, like, it unlocks, like, magic. I was like I'm like, this is how it should be. Like, this was, like, really very impactful. It mattered. It made it easy for me to to you know, rather than, as you mentioned, like, Google search something, like, know, go to Wells Fargo and I have to, like, search for a transaction.

It doesn't do anything but find a transaction where this was, like, doing, you know, like, a deeper dive and, oh, by the way, would you like me to, like, pull a table together that shows you you're spending on blah blah blah? I'm like, yes. Maybe I would. I didn't even think about that. And then the third is efficiency AI, which is what you just described, which is how the enablement factor, like, how people are using it kind of in the way that I just described on the financial platform package.

In the hobby, like, that to me is, like, there's the there's the consumer side of it where it's like you're creating things that are are better, you know, kind of correlated to, like, the fan experience of a of a sports league or the collector's experience in the hobby versus an a company who's using it to make them more efficient, like a DC sports 87 using, you know, using Haystack for scanning or something. So that being said, like, there is this in The United States so fun fact that I heard on a recent episode of, AI Daily Brief that in a recent survey that The US, when it comes to people who use AI and consider it something that they do on a daily basis, we are, by a a pretty far margin, the lowest, population when it comes to AI usage in, like, in our daily life, which some will argue is a good thing. But when you look to other developing, or other to, to developing nations, it's, like, super high because you you know, there's a economic situation or a geopolitical that makes it, you know, it creates an open stores and opportunities to use technology in a way than to get to data, news, and information that they didn't have before as opposed to The United States and some of the other the other countries where they have a bigger economy and more access to to resources, we just are way down.

But The US is, like, way down on that list, if not, I think at the bottom. And that's shocking to me. Right? Like, that's just it's like, how what? Like, how can we do this and use these tools in a way that is good for for humans?

And, you know, that's that's really what it comes down to. If AI isn't if AI isn't being used to improve human life and, like, a human experience, then, like, what is what's the point? Like, that's we should be using these tools and technology to improve human life. And that's where the big debate goes into of, like, you know, good or evil, bad or good. You know?

Like so that's that's a whole another episode, Brett. Yeah. I'm I I'm assuming the reason maybe why our adoption is so low is too many people getting consumed by the Terminator series when that was out in the box office attraction. Right? I mean, it's not the only reason.

I mean, there's, like, serious there's serious ethical questions that go into and and concerns when it comes to AI, like power consumption and, you know, the environmental impact of what's required. I mean, you're talking gigawatt stations. I know that I think I just heard that Meta's not Meta's x, their what do they call it? Oh my god. I can't remember.

The name of their their data center for training models just came online, and it's, like, over half a billion, GPUs and consumes a full gigawatt of power. It's more more power. It consumes more power on a daily basis than what's needed for San Francisco. Like so the city of San Francisco. So which is mind boggling.

Right? You know? But at the same time, it's like we've been through this over the years within other, you know, industrial revolutions. But what it takes to cool that, what it takes to to power that, the amount of energy required, and how that gets generated. And so, like, there's a lot of questions about that.

And then the point you made, the concern about what happens you know, what about the economy or the economic impact for both job loss and job creation, like, which because one, over the years over the decades and centuries, frankly, like, technology and innovation has always upended industry, like, whether it was the loom or, you know, the assembly line or what have you. Like, there's been destructive innovations that have also ended up being highly creative and and developed entire industries. So, that's what everyone's kinda thinking about and trying to sort out and figure out what but the the thing the number one thing if people take anything away from the AI discussion in general is the speed at which this innovation is happening is the thing that is the most scary and, frankly, probably the most, opportunistic this, view you can have. It's just happening so fast and so quickly, especially in software engineering, that it's it's the economic and the impact for both humans and for economies and for, industry is is not even known yet because it's it's almost like it's so it's happened so fast. It's almost too late for some of these things to unravel.

It's a very it's a very, feels like it's, predetermined. Right? Like, this is this is going to happen. And by far, I think the opinion, at least for most people who are paying attention to the the Levels AI, like, this isn't something that's going like, a lot of people have this feeling of, like, well, if I just wait it out, like, life will go back to the way it was before. Like, that is not going to happen.

Like, that is definitely not going to happen. So you need to really take a look if you're in this industry, specifically in software engineering. You really need to take the look at, like, what is your strategy? What are you going to do? How are you going to adapt?

Whether you're a, you know, a senior looking to go into computer science or you're a junior level developer who's trying to figure out what what to learn next, or you're a senior level engineer who's all of a sudden has all of their skills being wrapped up into, you know, into a context window with an agent running, and you're you're worried about what's gonna happen you to you next. But you can't just stand there and, like, ignore what's happening in this, in this technology space, or you or I don't know what's gonna happen to that person or that business. Has there been any examples that stand out to you where you've just been casually enjoying, like, taking your CEO hat off and putting your collector hat on? Go going through go going through your, like, process as a collector, has you have you seen anything AI driven that a company in the hobby is starting to do that got your attention where you looked at it and you said, okay. This is this is exactly where we're heading, and this company is just a a little bit ahead of the curve right now.

Well, I mean, that's that's a that's an easy one. I mean, I think, like, Tori and DC Sports eighty seven, what they're doing with their ingestion platforms and Haystack, like, I I've said for probably many times on this podcast and before, that was a that was a the the idea of being able to take a picture and identifying a sports card so you can either categorize it or comp it is, like, the holy grail of, like, use cases. Now the what I think the problem is that and I think Haystack and the other people in that that space got it right, which is a lot of people were focused on the, like, hey. The casual user walking around, you know, having having the scanner in their pocket, and they look at their show or the national wherever. And that's how that's the best use case, like, because the tangible market's so big.

And I'm like, now that you see it, I always thought that was ridiculous. I'm like, that like, you can search the data much faster than you can take a picture and wait to see. Connectivity was always an issue. Like, I just never thought that that was, like, the right way to it. And there's some good examples.

I actually think eBay's eBay's tool is actually pretty good, although it's still not perfect. But if you look at it for, like, the business, you know, b to b and the products that, specifically Haystack, what they've done and how efficient and effective their platform is, and they're still growing and they're getting a lot of, you know, feedback working with somebody like DC in the in the, the volume that they're doing, that to me is like that's life changing. Right? And, I mean, well, not life changing. That's the wrong word.

That is that has an incredible impact, and will help Tory and DC Sports and Zach and and the team over there, you know, exponentially over the next, you know, few years. I mean, they're gonna see, I think, big returns on their investment there. That's that's the biggest one that stands out to me. The rest are kinda like I don't know. Everyone's been trying over the the years to use AI for grading.

I still don't know. I don't think peep like, people complain about, like, the quality of grading with humans in the loop there, but then they can't they don't wanna trust it to AI because they also know, like, well, if I have, you know, if I have something that's so good at identifying, like, issues on a card, know, can see every micro dot on a Chrome, you know, on a prism high value football or basketball card. And instead of a nine or 10, it gets a eight or a seven because it had the human eye just couldn't see it. Like, I don't know. Like, people are like, they want it they want it one way, but they they they're kinda like they don't.

Right? Like, they're like, I don't know, man. I don't I don't trust the computer to it's like, no. You do. That's the problem.

Like, it's gonna it's gonna see everything. And they're like, they work really like, TAG had this, like, great demo at at the the national, like, couple years ago where they were, you know, the reverse negative imaging on the cards. And I remember thinking, I'm like, I don't want that. Like, they let a human look at it and be, like, subjective and, like, if it's gonna get what it's gonna get, but I think it's probably not realistic given the value of, you know, what some of these cards sell for now. So We've we've covered a lot of ground impromptu on AI, and, you know, this could be the start of a a whole series of conversations on AI because I feel like we're just scratching the surface.

But for this conversation specifically, like, what is a what is a primary point that you wanna leave anybody listening with, whether it's, you know, a collector or someone running a hobby business, just casual listener? Like, what point about AI do do you think is the most important to understand right now as we close out this chat? I mean, I think that the most important point is that to remember that it's just a tool, right, and that it's not perfect and that it's it makes mistakes. And, like, that little disclaimer at the bottom of every major platform, whether it's Chatuchiki or Gemini, or Claude, like, says, you know, AI does make mistakes. Like, it's not programmed.

I don't remember exactly what it says. But, like, like, keep that in mind. Right? I mean, I think you can use it. It it can change the way that you live and work in many positive ways.

I think there are dangers and risks to AI being used in in a many in many circumstances. I mean, you've heard the stories of, like, when when people have leaned into AI, to use as, like, almost like therapists and things like that for, like, serious issues. There were risks, and and, frankly, like, that's that's scary. However, I was, we sponsored the AI house at CES this year, as a as a first time sponsor, and it was incredible all day sessions talking about the impacts, the use cases of AI in society. And there was this panel specifically about the the, effective AI on positive human, experiences.

And one of the panelists, they were going around the room or across the panel. It was, like, four or five people and had said, like, why I would never use AI for medical advice. I wouldn't do that. I'd worry about it telling me something wrong or what have you. And the next panelist who I had a chance to actually sit next to at dinner, he said, I absolutely would use AI for medical advice.

He's like, it is it is trained on all of the data, all of the books. Right? And now if it was a serious medical condition, obviously, I would see a doctor, but I would use it to help me understand and diagnose things. But I don't want AI to recommend my music. And I thought, like, that was like I was like, that's true.

Right? Like, one is, like, a taste in a very personal thing. I mean, I see your albums in the background. They're like you know, you're like, you know you're listening and you're Don't tell me what to listen to. Don't tell me what to listen to, but you should absolutely it can help me manage my sugar.

Right? Like Yes. Yeah. Because I told him this whole story where, like, I have a monitor. I have a glucose monitor, so I don't mind sharing this.

Like, I have a glucose monitor. I'm type two diabetic. So I look at my sugar constantly, and I'm a data nerd. So I started to, like, snapshot literally snapshot my screenshot, drop it into ChatGPT and say, why does it spike in the middle of the night? And then, like, it's trained on medical data in there.

And, actually, if you're not really paying attention, maybe you heard that ChatGPT and some of the other major for Frontier tools have are starting to put out health specific instances of of their tools. So you can ask and it's, you know, data sandbox, more secure. It's different. It's from what they're saying. Anyways, right, I am not using that right now.

This is straight up just like good old I think I'm actually using Gemini. But I tell it and I share it, and then I tell it about, like, what I'm eating, And and it it is accurate because I can measure the results. Like, it's like, if you eat proteins first, order matters. Like, do this. Take go for a walk.

It's better than, frankly, than any pure medical advice I have from my general practitioner doctor, who she's fine, but, like, this level of if I went to a die diabetes management professional, I'd probably get the same thing, but I I didn't need to. And I could measure the results on it, and it was crazy. And I'll give you one last little quick anecdote on that. I was flying to Vegas, and I was sitting next to a pilot from United. And he'd never used ChatGPT ever in his life.

And I he saw the glucose monitor on my arm, and I showed him, like, oh, look at this what I do. And he's like, oh, it's like and it does that? I'm like, yeah. Like, screenshot. I read the read the data, and he's like, that's crazy.

And I'm like, let me blow your mind. So I had some I had the tray of food in front of me, and I'm like, watch this. I took a picture of the food, uploaded in ChatGPT, and said, tell me what I should do with this food. I didn't tell what food it was. I didn't tell where I did say I was on a United flight, and this was a United meal.

And it identified everything in the picture and said, you know, eat that meat first. There's there was a fruit cup that had, like, berries and strawberries and, like like, four different things. It identified all four of them and said, eat the berries. Don't eat that pineapple, and do it in this order. And then here's what will happen to your continuous glucose monitor readings.

And I showed him, and he was like, that's insane. I'm like, it's crazy that it can do all that. And I'm on Wi Fi in an airplane. Right? And so I fell asleep, and he hits my arm because I said, we'll we'll look at it in about an hour.

And I've and I and he's like, hey, man. It's been an hour. We looked, and it was like we went back and compared, and it was within, like, you know, 5% of the numbers of where it needed to be. And I screenshot and upload again. I said, here is the results.

And I was like, oh, that's really great. Like, looks like we were dead on. I mean, like, that's the kind of thing where it's like, that has a really positive impact, at least for me in my life. So I don't have to go to the doctor and make an appointments. I can use data that I'm collecting that's my own, my body, and I can make health decisions that will hopefully, you know, reduce my risk of, like, heart disease and and things like that or stroke.

You couldn't do that literally a year ago. Like, think about that. Like, that that that's the kind of thing where I if you apply the same idea to the hobby, right, and maybe it's not food and maybe it's cards and maybe it's collections and and maybe it's values or it's, you know, pulling data to aggregating a better experience at a at a shop that's selling Pokemon for little kids. I mean, there's all kinds of little ideas. You gotta add on that the tools to actually create those for nondevelopers, people who just like to do things and are willing to try.

I mean, I think you can it's gonna be amazing. And, like, that's that to me is, where the fun happens, and I hope, you know, we start to see that in the next, I don't know, six months a year. Mean, that's what we're gonna be doing. We're gonna be doing me and Ed, we're gonna be coding up some some things. I know he's already working on stuff, but, you know, we'll we'll we'll build some cool stuff.

If you are in the space and you're curious about AI, there is someone who's certainly excited to speak with you, Scott. Like I mentioned right before we hop on There's a show? Yeah. Right when we hopped on, we just said, Scott was like, I wanna talk about AI. So here you have it.

So maybe this is the first of a few chats around AI, but I I think there was a ton of value offered. And, Scott, how how do you think we I think we did pretty pretty good for no notes. Yeah. No. Like, it's shocker that I'm in this is, like, a passion area for me.

I think we did well. I think you asked great questions, and I hope the I hope the listeners get a nugget out of it and, you know, maybe, you know, go go a little bit deeper, play with the tools that are out there, build something, you know, just find something that they're that that they wanna do that they couldn't have done before and just try it. That's all that's what you gotta do. We'll be exploring AI more on build for the hobby. It it saves me time.

Right? I'm I don't need to format anything, and we can just get get in and go. So appreciate everyone for tuning in and checking it out, and we'll be back again next month. Alright. Thanks, Brett.