it's episode thirty nine yes it is welcome we are three and o that's our minnesota vikings you yes three and o is my kirk cousins jersey i had to get this out of the closet to wear today gotta show some lovey to my boy kirk i was a rookie fan but adam how we doing man it feels good to be three and o even though those wins were ugly as hell defense man defense wins championships that's what the company always yeah told us growing up defense wins championships man i'll tell you the watching that game was was difficult it was it was difficult they they are not good on offense and that's usually what makes games just got even better by getting rid of jj mccarthy thank you fancy football gods he's gone he's gone this is a great day i was excited to talk about that yeah it was funny because they the there was somebody who posted like the the giants trading for jj mccarthy and then watching case keenum explode on monday night football and then like the the meme is like bradley cooper in that scene in the hangover he's like oh my god we we totally fucked up oh that's true yeah they coulda got keenum for probably a seventh rounder so oh not even that they would've been a cat a can of pepsi keenum i i we all keenum's got a soft spot for vikings fans for what he did in minneapolis miracle so i was i was rooting for them obviously you know can't root for the bears but it was cool to see him do what he did last night so awesome awesome we have a special guest that's gonna join us here in a moment i'm gonna talk deep dive into the panini redemption saga kevin give me a thumbs up if you're ready to rock here he looks so confused he looks so lost wait one second second we'll we'll jump in i'll add him when he gives me a thumbs up and then let's i just wanna get into the opening pyro because we've i mean like this panini stuff has has gone deep and and wide so i wanna make sure that we have a lot of time to talk about it and kevin's a great person to have on so let's get into the opening pyro here basically whenever there is a wrestling tragedy and i i it happens frequently unfortunately so i think it's something that i just wanted to mention upfront like pac and and neville ben whatever you wanna call him was really came into prominence when i wasn't watching wrestling like i it was you know early nxt days nxt championship and then like he's on aew which i don't pay attention to and don't like so i don't really have a lot of context or connection to him very much but others do so you know tragic to see that he had passed away so young and you know it's just unfortunate yeah i used to watch him a lot when he was neville on wwe and his matches man what he could do in that ring was like you've never seen somebody else do what he could do at the level very sad tragic news i mean it sounds like everything i'm hearing that he was a phenomenal person a lot of respect that he had within the wrestling world and outside of it so it is sad only forty years old i i guess they still don't know the cause of death but it it's sad man it sucks to see we lost him and we lost with the butcher what a month ago or so i i think so i am not as yeah i know you're not big in awb i mean like yeah it's it's been it's been tragic man it just it hits home with a guy it's still honestly in their prime of wrestling is is gone so okay so moving on to the actual wrestling here smackdown i i just i i really can't bring myself to sit through it these days it's it's just not very good but i did see the match with punk and gunther and and the way that that all went down with the triple threat for money in the bank somehow punk pinned gunther to get into money in the bank and i i don't really see a reason for punk to be in this match i think he's a huge injury risk in that respect given his age but who knows man like gotta have some star power in that pinning gunther after having him beat aj styles and john cena and taking l's like i'm just not for it man like you got it you've built a monster like you gotta keep going with it is it just one of those things where gunther is cursed and speeding cena is that what we're looking at because it's i mean nothing should go his way i think kevin is ready to go to hop on in let's bring him in double thumbs up let's do this leroy jacobs style i like it i like it so kevin from new york roadshow yeah welcome to the to back welcome back to the podcast this time i actually get to be on when you when you join so that's awesome but we're gonna talk through some wrestling we're gonna talk some through some wrestling stuff here and then we'll get into the stuff but glad to have you on i i did not think that that punk was gonna be the victor in this match i thought it who was the third person does anybody remember who the third person was in this match finn balor wasn't it finn balor i thought finn was gonna be the one yeah we are all it's always everybody thinks finn's gonna be the one and then just never giving finn a chance finn makes the most sense out of all of them yeah now let's just not have finn in it again so i i mean like yeah this this money in the bank stuff like other like braun never hold a a title yet trick obviously never held a a a world title yet jovan and penta both looking for their first world title punk obviously has won many the follow-up match is gonna be cody versus kayo versus gargano for the last spot so that's a toss-up i would hope that they put ko in the match he always does crazy stuff in ladder matches but gargano would be somebody i would be interested in seeing in a match like this given his history in nxt and and on the main roster so i mean it's interesting right i mean yeah i i guess cody's never really had to be in one or unless modern day maybe he was one back in the day i don't know if he ever was but i get with you what you're saying i guess the question becomes i'm gonna ask you kevin and you adam i know who adam's favorite is right now in the men's kevin who's your favorite in the men's to win right now i i think i have the answer of what my heart wants and what i think is the most logical booking decision i think in my heart i wanna see a little trick willie action i'd love to see trick and what he can do from a promo standpoint with the briefcase carrying that right like how like the lemon pepper briefcase that would then get discontinued on the website no i i think i think penta given how great that roman match was just makes sense to continue on that momentum but of course you know punk being in the match sort of leaves that shadow of a doubt that wwe defaults to we need to sell tickets punk's gonna sell the most tickets let's give it to him as we're about to run on a tour of trying to sell out arenas so i always have that that little bit of fear anytime a main event level veteran is put into a match like this but yeah i'd love to see either trick or or penta take it home from a collecting perspective i think there are like anybody but punk winning the briefcase is a huge deal for their cards and like especially somebody like jevon or trick like really would see some major spikes penta i think is going to win and people have already started pricing that in a little bit on some of the cards i've seen sell so like i don't think there's gonna be as much of a spike there but i don't think this does anything for punk collecting wise he's already accomplished everything he's well established it's like shohei ohtani winning another mvp like it's just assumed but i i i cody and randy is still going so i'd like if they put cody in this match like you gotta assume he's not winning you gotta assume he's like something's gonna happen that he's not gonna win this match like randy's gonna cause interference with it or something to cause him to lose i don't think throwing gargano in this match i mean again from a standpoint of what he could do in the ring but i think kevin owens is a more logical thing to put in here to give another oh this guy could win i think we're all in agreement jovan's not ready i don't think any of us are thinking jovan's gonna win this he's gonna be phenomenal in the match probably steal the match from what he could do but i don't think he's got a chance i think anybody else even if you throw ko in has a logical chance to win or you could say breaker could be ready it could be time you know i i like trick a lot i love to see trick do it i think i think he's ready but who knows what like kevin said best are we are we in the point where we're just trying to sell tickets right now it's a great question they also just quickly touch on some raw stuff they did book bronson reed versus obafemi haas versus haas big meaty men slapping meat i love it gonna be an awesome match can't wait to see bronson reed back in the ring i i mean the dude really put in work while he was gone yeah and oba like and that's the thing like oba could have been just this guy who comes in and just beats the crap out of people and that's the only aspect of this game but i really like him on the mic i really like him in the ring he's got like the complete package so i'm i don't know what's i i is this gonna be another non finish is it gonna be like who knows because i don't think he can beat bronson in his return but i don't think oba should lose either and i think but as i mentioned last time when they were doing this future of wwe match like if they're really invested in the vision like and they really wanna see them succeed do you have to give them a w at some point right kevin you wanna take it yeah let's let's jump in there i mean there's i feel like there's always it's like with so many people like we just sort of alluded to with finn balor it's like the always the bridesmaid never the bride where you're like oh if he's in this match it's gonna be great you know we can plug him into to anything and it'll be great it could be a program that you know doesn't need a title and it's it's interesting that i feel like with with bron breakker specifically like you he sorta has never had that main event push yet somehow everybody in the industry sorta regards him as this guy who has right like there's there's no like prospecting with him right it's like yeah this guy is the man this guy you know and so i i don't i don't know like he's in a weird spot where i feel like it's not that wwe doesn't know what to do with him but it's just one of those things that it feels like i don't think they think they need to give him the push that he actually does need right because look he was supposed to be the guy right and then oba got the push and not to say that he didn't deserve it right but like you know the the push that looked like it was immediately coming for breaker just sort of got shifted to the back burner and they put him in you know something to do vision vortex yeah right and so for that i just sort of as much as i'd love to say like his day is coming his day is coming like he might just be one of those guys that like by circumstance of timing and by circumstance of everybody else around him right like i would bet that when they brought trick up they never thought trick was gonna get the reception that he got right like true and now you have you know even from a different standpoint but just when you're looking to break down like television time right like now you gotta get danhausen on tv right because who would have thought that he was gonna be you know what he is and so but he doesn't need to wrestle i think it's a little bit different you can put him in seconds it still takes up tv time yeah where if you're trying to develop right because now like you have all these good individuals in the vision who in theory to be doing something great on their own that are sort of lumped together in it's it's almost back to like when judgment day started and it's like we have all these guys who are main caliber guys who we just don't really have anything for but we don't want them sitting in catering and i feel like that's what we're really running into with with breaker where like you know what's next for him it and it it does feel like he goes into matches now and he goes into feuds and i'm writing him as off him off as having lost it before it happens yeah and i don't think bronson reed in this match really has to like he's not being presented as the leader of the group and he's not being like presented he's basically being presented the way before he went on the shelf and like again i just don't know what they they've booked themselves into a weird spot with this match because bronson literally just came back and oba is like on a roll and needs the and they didn't have a finish in the last match so you can't like do two matches in a row where there's no finish like i i just i don't know it's weird you can't have him you know basically in brock lesnar's career twice last match and then go on to these other matches where they can't be completed and he's losing to bronson reed no offense but you cannot have him do that so bronson's not on his level no he's not that's my point being is you cannot have him do what he did and then have like okay we can get around this last match understandable but you gotta have him start winning again i think they're just trying to bite their time to win they can finally get him in the main made events maybe with roman next year or whatever they're just trying to fill the gaps right now going up against the nfl season right now and just try to salvage to the roads wrestlemania which kicks off for royal rumble so we gotta got some of the harder months to get through we all know how life gets different this time of year especially for wrestling the storyline isn't as good it's just typical i mean heck raw's coming here on monday and my wife keeps asking are we going i'm like i don't think so i don't think i wanna pay the money to go plus i gotta take all three kids on a school night downtown and drive home and deal with that mess on tuesday morning of getting them up i think i'd rather just watch the luxury of my home and put them to bed at nine o'clock i agree i agree last thing we'll touch on from raw they did set up a title contenders match for the women becky versus liv on monday i doubt that match goes to a finish because that means one of them's left off of money in the bank because neither of them are in the final match so i'm guessing like good they they're gonna put two major stars roman's back on raw next week as well like it's gonna be a big raw and i i'm excited for it i'm excited for becky and liv to finally get a match because liv quote unquote retired her before she came back and they really haven't paid that off with the match so this is good but yeah i don't think that's going to a finish either so again like there's a lot of nonfinishes we're expecting here in the next few weeks but the the the men women's money in the bank match is shaping up to be solruka lola vice jc jane roxanne perez last legend and then a one of tiffy candice lerae or tatum paxley this one is a little bit harder to call because i would love to see tiffy in another ladder match she does great but tatum paxley i i don't know if you can you can push her out the door here yeah i think she's getting a lot of push right now i think tiffany's already obviously had that moment again as much as tiffany would be a phenomenal in this match they are pushing tatum right now so it gets me to my next question is let's just say tatum or tiffany's in i'm still going with roxanne perez here i think roxanne perez is my favorite to win i think it's time for her to go on a bigger better things kevin watches nxt she was so dominant in nxt i i so i just as much as i like her i don't think she's ready i don't think lola jc would actually be a perfect person to carry that briefcase she would be perfect for that role as the heel that she is but i don't think it's time last legend no i don't like that they keep putting last legend in these positions when she's like clearly not over but you gotta have the big one in there to just kinda manhandle throw things you know around so yeah i'm gonna stick with roxy i i think i'd be actually thoroughly disappointed if she didn't win but what are you guys' thoughts on this one go ahead kevin i would love to see jc win just because of what would happen with that briefcase yeah and you know she has atomic heat to begin with yeah and it it's sort of to me like you know when chelsea green got the rocket strapped to her right like it sort of seems like a very similar thing where this is like a very easy way to just take somebody who is over and just have a built in story line for however long you wanna do it right like and i also think that in booking like you need to look at like she could cash in and lose i think if rox if roxy cashed in she would not be able to lose right she would have to win and so when you if you go the round of her you're committing to within a year you're putting the belt on which i don't think is the wrong decision at all i just you know the the the doubt of there potentially being a failed cash in with a with a hated heel character i feel like just plays out a little bit better on tv with the brief i agree with that that's a that's a very solid take and i i love roxanne perez she can go and she's great she's like if you take her away from judgment day i think she will thrive but you have to take her away from judgment day and if you're gonna put the belt back on liv morgan fine you can tell that story i think that's a drawn out story you can tell with roxy with the briefcase and liv with the title but then you gotta put the title back on liv morgan and that just never works and it's just like i yeah i don't know i would much rather see you know them present like tiffy's not gonna win her second briefcase before somebody else wins their first it's just not gonna happen candice lerae maybe they they signed her and johnny gargano back to contracts i don't know if theirs were coming up and now she's gonna be in this match who knows but i i like there's there's not a like jc jane to your point kevin i think is a solid take like she could cash in and fail and i think that that's an interesting tale to tell especially if it's against chelsea green which would be really really interesting given that rhea won't be back for a while okay really good stuff from a collecting perspective just to touch on this tatum paxley's cards have gone up a ton since her call up we're talking ten fifteen percent jumps we've seen a lot more people coming out of the woodworks looking to buy her cards i'd love to see her in this match and she'll get a chance to sign or shine but i'm not like a i'm not like sold on tatum as like i didn't i'm not i have i've watched nxt in the past just not recently when she's sort of come to prominence but i think of all these people like obviously lola vice has signed a lot sol ruka has signed a ton jc signed literally thousands of autographs since twenty twenty two and it's not even it it's not no shock that her cards are stagnant being the atomic eel that she is roxanne perez has kind of gone on this roller coaster where it's like her cards are either exceptionally expensive at the top end high end super high desirable stuff but then sort of like tailing off at the in the bottom sort of rung of the ladder very similar to a lot of the women who have signed a ton and roxanne has definitely done so in the last few years so i'm curious how that all plays out alright i'm gonna move on to this panini saga here and kevin i wanted to have kevin on because he's he's such a good person to have on when talking about like strategic stuff like this because in honesty both of you guys run card shops kevin runs new york roadshow ryan with rbi crew seven you guys have both done a ton of ripping of panini products you had probably just as many redemptions as i did pending if not quite a few more and you are very much tied into the the pulse of the hobby in terms of people coming into your store and stuff so having you both on from that perspective is great i'll i'll try and and also the collector perspective because you both have huge pcs i do as well but we all have problems here is what you're saying we got we got problems so i think like if you've been on social media for the last couple of weeks and by the time that this airs it will have likely been about two weeks since this whole saga started go back one episode in the archives for book to last we talk about like sort of the background here but literally all of facebook all of instagram all of twitter all at once was literally did i get cooked chat in every way shape and form people were posting the cards that they had what they got replaced what i wanna do is do a deep dive into this we promised this last week and we're all all three of us are insanely familiar with how this all went down so i wanna take some time to go through it and buckle up this is gonna be a lot like we're really gonna spend time on this there isn't anything where else we're covering there's not much card market news to go through on the high spots today so like there this is really what's been dominating the conversation and i have had no less than two twenty or thirty people reach out to me and i i even asked for people to reach out so they wouldn't undersell some of the stuff that were was coming into their possession but there are tons of questions and so just initially kevin from your perspective when you saw this was going down and you had i'm sure just as many questions as everybody else like what was going through your head i mean i i think it was interesting because everybody sort of saw the writing on the wall happening as panini was losing the license and you know you started seeing a lot more redemptions and you started seeing certain people where redemptions a lot more but i don't think anybody sort of thought of the like finality of like oh shoot there's gonna come a time when they're gonna need to get this done and and there's gonna need to be a solution and so sort of you know immediately when when all this broke and and we got the news you know that panini was going to be closing basically every single wwe redemption you know my initial thought just from a standpoint of the uniqueness of wrestling cards was oh crap we're in for just an absolute storm and sure enough and and i have told you guys for the past two weeks my favorite thing to do is go on facebook and watch people have this you know oh my god i can't believe they did this or oh my god i can't believe this is all i got or on the flip side oh my god i had this and look what they replaced it with right and so like i think the one thing that sort of stuck out to me at the start of this was like panini was going to have a very challenging time on their hands because i feel like more so with wrestling cards than any sports cards people collect their people right yeah and like if you're buying becky lynch redemptions or if you're buying roman redemptions or triple h redemptions or whoever it was right like you're buying that because it's your person right like and sports it it it it is not that as much now it is to a degree but right like and so now i think the thing that nobody sort of thought about and we haven't really seen play out yet is like i don't think the panini you know redemption team and like i don't think they're avid followers of the wwe program and so like if you are a becky fan you might hate charlotte flair and then when you're a replacement for your becky and charlotte flair you're like yeah suspended because like i don't wanna show right like and and so i think that they had very tricky waters to navigate during the closeout process but i mean what what what what was your guys' initial you know take well i i think the biggest thing that i've been telling people have reached out to me is guys they're handling the best they can they could easily say here's panini points tough shit hope all smiles impacts yeah you know for yeah something like that where they're hey we're trying they're you could see them trying and i know people are upset but this was deeper than what they realized this was a relationship that was tarnished almost from the start and you could see the writing on the wall like you mentioned that these redemptions continue to grow with certain names obviously hulk hogan passed away i think they got most of that stuff done and they had it roman was a tricky one and there's more to that obviously but give them credit where credit is due i they could easily brush this underwater or just say we're gonna send you we've got panini baseball let's send some panini baseball they're trying what they can and i respect that but from the wrestling collector standpoint like you alluded to i had several seth rollins several randy ortons blah blah blah however randy ortons got fulfilled all that that's different but if you're buying redemptions because you collect somebody that's the issue where most people in other sports are ripping and redeeming and they got in a break or they hit in a box where we like to rip but we also like to collect so the biggest one that never got fulfilled for me was the one zero one evolution which was triple h batista triple and randy orton one zero one triple auto obviously they couldn't do flare and then neil had the stephanie triple h seth rollins triple immaculate auto that's unfortunate we didn't get those but at the end of the day there's more to it than than we people even us realize but more or less anybody else realizes yeah so i think you bring up a really good point there there's just not much information out there and there won't be and like you can speculate we can speculate yeah and so what we're gonna talk about today is mostly three people with a lot of experience in the industry a lot of experience talking with panini i have had preestablished relationships because you guys run shops you have pre established relationships as well so like we we are a little bit more clued in than the average collector i've i've had lucas on my podcast before lucas kinzer i've i've worked with all sorts of people from dj to kevin to everybody at panini like they're great people to work with on wwe they put in a hell of an effort over the three years that they had it but we knew this situation was gonna come but the other thing is like facebook is a terrible source for information like and and kevin mentioned kevin loves it he's here for it it's been my favorite thing and it's it's yeah it yes it's everybody thinks that they're singular and look i don't wanna discredit anybody's individual card journey or card experience right but like your one rikishi out of ninety nine redemption like it ranks unfortunately it ranks so low on yes in the grand scheme of things now to you it is the most important card in the world in that moment and i respect that to a degree but also there's level there's levels there's you're gonna get something and you know to your guys' point like the fact that you didn't just get points you know they tried they tried but yeah facebook is facebook is a blast i love it yeah i know and and like i've been i've been arguing with people i because i it's it's entertainment right it's it's social media is meant for entertainment and and going on and sort of educating the population is doing you're throwing you know drops of rain into an ocean and it's just like you know maybe it'll change one person's mind you do fight the good fight though you really i really do really do i really try because i always feel like there's groups that i'm not even a member of but like because we're friends on facebook it shows i live vicariously through you in these fights i i don't have the time to get into these battles i hate seeing people like go on and just make the most ridiculous assumptions and it's just like you know even people who are informed have come to ryan and i and saying like where did all these flawless cards come from like oh is it we'll get there we're gonna talk about it but i think like the the idea that people are getting their information on this from facebook is is not a good source it's not a good source to go on twitter and listen to the guy who's shouting at the rooftops that he got upset that his replacement wasn't as good as he thought like we're trying to provide this as a service for people but recognize as kevin said everybody wants their cards few got the cards they actually redeemed no one including all of us are a hundred percent satisfied like i was taken care of because of a lot of different reasons for my becky cards i got a few of them back others were replaced but i'm still not a hundred percent satisfied because i i didn't get a many of the cards i was very excited for so there's gonna be a lot of anger there's gonna be a lot of dissatisfaction panini recognized that but guys like the license is over like they can't go creating more cards they can't go finding more product what they had is what they had and they did the most of it like i've never seen this happen in any sport across the history of the hobby nothing like this has ever been attempted before and they had to get massive amounts of approval over a long period of time from wwe panini brass like everybody had to weigh in on this because legally there's no precedent for this so like when a license ends you're not supposed to do anything except forgive people the cards they were promised that's literally it if they have a redemption and you get it back you can send it out but outside of that you're not supposed to do anything so i think like there's a lot of gray area here that had to be navigated by a team and i think they did a tremendous job as kevin said not only did we get replacements for cards that really they have no licenses left they have no nfl they have no nba like they have some but like we got wrestling cards back which is ridiculous in its own right but i think overall like panini needs to have a ton of credit come their way for making this happen especially with what some people were able to get in return for their overall sort of account status last thing i'm gonna say there are people with six figures worth of cards outstanding like i've talked to a few of them i had mid five figures like there's a ton of value here that is unrealized and sat for three four years at some point that is a massive massive problem i was talking with my dad and i said to him like this money was on in limbo like it was either something or nothing and there was a very large chance it was nothing to see that we got something is at least giving me closure on the fact that i don't have to wonder what's gonna happen with this five figures worth of money right so that's that's a big deal but i think as we get into this like there's a couple of parts here number one like let's talk about what happened there were thousands and thousands and thousands of outstanding redemptions they reached an agreement with roman reigns to sign at least as many as he could of the cards that he had outstanding so if you had roman reigns redemptions from immaculate prism select impeccable you name it he signed some of them i don't think he signed all of them elite ryan you had an elite passing the torch yeah elite pass torch with taker and then his impeccables did not get done either kevin what else do you know i feel like almost everything else no it was it was mainly like it was the passing torch and the impeccables and then and then elite because he didn't he had the was it the inscription not the inscription the signature set i think that didn't get that got replaced as well right so roman got most of his sign a lot of the one on ones i don't think got signed because i talked to people waiting on one of ones that didn't get them so something happened there but regardless most people got a package full of roman or multiple packages full of roman reigns cards they have all been dumped on ebay we'll talk about that later on here no other wwe wrestlers look to have been signing for panini so they closed out literally all other outstanding redemptions i had eighty plus tickets close out ryan how many tickets did you have that you got closed out seventy something or give or take i think given their seventy three yeah yeah i was i was in the in the sixties i believe it was so lots of outstanding cards and i can i can say with some level of certainty and we won't give an exact number but it was over twenty thousand redemptions that were the scale is huge yeah it was bigger than i thought oh my gosh it was over twenty thousand i was told from from a good authority so again your rikishi number to ninety nine wait wait what about my bob backlund in ninety nine what about that one so that's a lot yep yeah and go ahead ryan no i was gonna say i mean at least i i wanna say something about the romans because outside the roman the other big name out there was triple h and we knew that was pretty much dead in the water from the start as of twenty twenty two yeah as of like twenty two all he signed was stickers if i'm correct he never had a single on card with panini nope so he was redemptions for a lot of stuff at twenty two but obviously fast forward to the other years no but i wanna say i'm glad they got the romans done because this could have been even worse and this could have been a nightmare getting roma done was the most valuable name out there the biggest name that there ideally is for the industry especially now so getting that done changes the landscape if this was not done who knows the pitchforks might be at panini right now and that wasn't really on panini so i mean thank you panini and thank you roman for getting this done at least because it's gonna have been a lot worse roman i believe signed over fifteen hundred cards so like there's quite a bit and and we and i we mentioned this at the national because i i had a conversation with their team at the national they they told me out of nowhere that he had signed and i'm like what wait what like this actually happened and he's like yes it's done and i i remember telling jamieson and jamieson was like this is insane i don't believe it this is absolutely crazy yeah like i'll leave it when i see it and but like people people are getting these packages back they got and like there's a whole bunch of slides here that i'll get to but like the understanding here is roman stuff is exceptionally valuable brett talked about this on one of his shows he just purchased the twenty twenty two jumbo patch autograph of roman reigns for like thirty grand so like roman's value in panini stuff is exceptional it's to ryan's sort of comment here like this is a big deal and i'm very happy for people who were waiting and waiting and waiting all other outstanding redemptions have been closed out there's a bunch of cody rhodes there was a bunch of randy orton becky lynch like you name it we're talking twenty thousand as kevin said redemption is huge scale so let's talk about what they had available to give as replacements based on what we've seen people get in we've seen people receive one white boxes which i'll explain what they are in a second two they've had hits from product that panini had on hand some really unfortunate people got did get end up getting points for really low level redemptions and some opted to take cards from other sports earlier on in the process so there were people who cashed out early who got cards from other sports now those people are complaining by the way they are but i mean like i'd say you know when i had a conversation with with a few people and they're like i'm so upset i took that payout i'm like no you absolutely made the right choice like if you were a collector of other sports and you had an opportunity to to take your money out of limbo with a one and a thousand shot that this actually gets done like you made the right choice i don't think anybody should be unhappy with the fact that given the circumstances and information that was available they probably made the right choice at that point now fomo yes i'm sorry you are watching this like it's that meme of like you know at spongebob and and and patrick being excited and squidward and behind the blinds being mad like that's that's what it is for those people and i feel bad for them but i think like going back to like what what this is all about like these are very limited replacements like there are not many cards that they had for white boxes we'll talk about what white boxes actually are in a minute the products that they had on hand very limited actually are in a minute the products that they had on hand very limited like they had some you know qc products they had you know a closet full of stuff that they actually opened and ripped and it's not like they're holding all of these hits back like they have to keep boxes on hand because people get damaged cards they get damaged boxes they get missing cards and that has to be replaced with sealed wax they have to keep it for a period of time per the license the public licensing agreement was made available during the lawsuit so like we know all these things happen so if people are complaining about like what they got there was a very limited pool of of opportunity here kevin anything you wanna add there no i mean on on this i think to your point right like for people who took the the other sports cards right like the for the most part the only way i would be upset would be if i was sitting on a ton of romans right because even then there are people who had non roman stuff who you know again if you are you collecting for value or are you collecting for you know your your passion of collecting right because if you were collecting for value and in the summer you got to pay out of you know josh allen you're looking to be in great shape right now right yeah exactly right but if if you're collecting for roman is your guy and you wanna collect romans then yeah of course you're this is a tough one upset but you know it is what it is anything ryan from your side no i mean like it's yeah i like ceramic he turned in his years ago i don't know maybe a year ago and then now he completely has the fomo and he's like i should've waited i didn't get really taken care of there and i told these guys over and over just be patient hold out hold out hold out hold out but some people hey it's about getting hey i wanna get some monetary back now i don't wanna wait i could use the money for this or that i get it so i mean you had to make a decision and luckily i have a friend that kept telling me wait wait wait and and i'm i mean we're not everybody's gonna be happy because we've wanted those cards made like obviously there's becky's that you wanted to be i was waiting i was waiting until the very end yeah because like those cards were more important to me than any monetary value that was put into it so it's different for me but for others maybe not so much right no yeah good point alright i just wanna go through the timeline really fast here wwe started their license with panini in twenty twenty two by the time that and we mentioned this last week by the time that was live we already knew that fanatics was taking back over like panini was dead in the water from day one so through the lawsuit they ended the license a year early so they were supposed to start the license with new tops era on one one twenty six the beginning of this year it got pushed forward a year as a result of the settlement clearly so we've saw that all in the licensing documents that were revealed but panini started working with wwe to to fill these outstanding redemptions as soon as that license was over and i think working is a is a loose term because there may have been some legal action involved from what i've heard there's a lot of contentious behavior here because you're you have two sides that have already sued each other so like there's already a strained relationship and i think the solution work likely began middle of twenty twenty five given the scale of how much this is and from what i was told at the national like they did not have approval on this until recently and it had to go to wwe it had to go to panini brass like it had to go all over the place to get approved and i know that they've like even their customer service agents are telling this to people when they're calling in so like this is not secret information like we're not revealing anything that isn't public facing at this point and i think panini doesn't have any reason to hide anything like they're not under any circumstances where this needs to be kept quiet it was approved sometime in twenty twenty six but the relationship as of right now is gone like there there already was a very small relationship just to finish this now let's put it let's put the funeral in place because this relationship is dead i put a eulogy on main event this week just talking about the error and all they've accomplished but the card started shipping out on on september twenty second by the time you listen to this i would guess most of those are already enhanced so that's that's the timeline when you hear this ryan like i'm sure you can recognize just from your own logistics of holiday mania how much it takes to get twenty thousand redemptions out the door ups probably looked at them sideways like they had three heads and they were all on backwards yeah i i can only fathom i mean everybody they're trying to ship out i mean kevin you might know better but i mean is it just pure pure chaos are you hearing anything about how this is like you know a collector breaking for them are you airing on saturday yes okay so by the time by the time this airs i have been told that everything would have been chipped yeah unless unless they unless they meet some some issues between us filming and that but shoot i mean i think the the craziest thing from a logistical standpoint and just to point out and i think it's kinda funny is like i have been getting packages every day but it's like two cards in this one two cards in this one and i'm like you guys are overnighting these packages like it can't be yeah wouldn't it it can't be cheap and so you know i would hate to see their their logistics you know their their bill this month for what's getting mailed out but yeah i think i think it's just you know we we've seen a swift action where i don't think in the history of you know me being in this industry and and seeing redemptions as a whole like i don't think we've ever seen something move this swiftly towards a complete resolution never never so yeah it it really is un unprecedented put put this in perspective i was just hearing about your packs i had twelve overnight packages in one day right all had well i think one had two cards in it maybe but they could've just put them all in one box in one box save money but right and and that's i mean i you know i i don't know what the process is there but i think it's funny when you know my wife is is working from home today and tomorrow and i was like listen don't be surprised if we have seven deliveries that you have to sign for kevin what is wrong with you it's all like what did you buy kevin i said no i promise i bought things in twenty twenty two like it's not yeah it's like i don't have this not this first yesterday buy now goes to the shop you know nothing about it this is stuff when i did it we didn't have the shop location back then and and that's just that's so crazy about it is is like yeah this is this is really you know i'm saying this purely based on speculation but yeah it really seems like none of these guys and we know panini and fanatics don't like each other right like that is overwhelmingly obvious but it almost seems like with the wwe situation more so than any of the other licenses like it truly is playing out like an episode of monday night raw yes right like it it almost it fits it fits really well where it's like who's doing back backdoor deals and who's doing x y and z and did hulk hogan sign on card autographs for topps while panini still had the license because he died like there's so many like questions that you can ask in the process always default to like the the monday night raw storyline too like they're always like oh like they they they kept this back like how could that happen like but like right it's it's it's nefarious circumstances and they're gonna blow up someone's limo and whatever you know it's just it's i'm gonna threaten a flash action lawsuit because this is the first time a card company has ever done something wrong like that's that's what it feels like and it's and again it's it's everybody sort of in their own my stuff is the most important bubble which which makes my doomscrolling facebook so much fun yes so i think the average cost and this is what i had gotten information that's different than yours i'm glad it was only twenty k because i was originally given a larger number than that but the average cost of an outstanding redemption i think is around fifty bucks to a hundred bucks but some of these like when they went into the system were you know three hundred dollar cards now they're ten thousand dollar cards like there are circumstances for like obafemi especially like his cards for flawless he and and three count and a few other redemptions that he had like those cards have gone up a huge amount of money in value but i think like you know you you when you go into some of these redemptions like these one of one roman reigns that are outstanding or i have multiple one of one becky lynch's like those cards are five to ten thousand dollar cards and like in some cases and brett just bought one i i mentioned earlier but like these cards have increased exceptionally in value since twenty twenty four so you had many parties not just the three of us because we weren't even high on the list ryan was but like we weren't even high on the list for like the the top accounts that are outstanding but i think like there are people out there that definitely had huge amounts of money in limbo here and so that means priority is likely gonna be required in managing the people who had the highest dollar value outstanding and making sure that those people at least were taken care of to a degree where a lawsuit isn't gonna come their way if they get screwed over but also that like money drives every industry related output here and people's place in line are are is it can be based when you're further down in the line like it could be random luck whether you got something awesome or something quite stupid like that happens and i think if you are you know somebody who spent a lot of money on this panini took care of you seemingly a little bit differently than if you were a rikishi out of ninety nine like you mentioned so people just don't wanna think about that because it's all you know what happens to me and my cards and whatever but recognize like just the level of scale here is insane right so i'm just like i wanna put that out there because i think that's worth saying agreed i concur a hundred percent a hundred percent accurate okay so let's go on to part two which are what are the questions and i think the main question that people had were coming from two areas number one what is in these white boxes so just to give everybody an understanding of how a signing process works when there is a high value card with multiple signers on it or even one signer on it they don't just send one card they send multiple cards in some cases if the serial is out of two sometimes they'll send three or four just to make sure that if anything is smeared or damaged in transit they can stamp a serial number on these overs and they will get basically a replacement card available so that they don't have to put the damaged ones in packs now when they verify that the actual cards in are in the product and that they're good and they're gonna they're gonna be fine then they take the other cards and they put them in these white boxes let me reinforce this with people these are not sealed products they know exactly what are in these boxes okay they're just they're just there and they wanna make we're we're we're degenerate gamblers and we love opening wax so they give us an experience of opening a box but they know exactly what is in every single one of them and sometimes it's printed on the back of the box so i think people have to understand these are not cards that were meant to be in products every quote unquote one of one in these boxes was not meant to be packed out unless there was a damage to the original card secondly some of these are labeled as quote unquote one of ones but there may be multiples of them so just keep that in mind even though something is labeled a one of one it is one of a kind because you have it it is not necessarily one of one any adam to touch to touch on that one they are technically all unique in the fact that it could be the same white box but they're using the different foil right so the platinum one of one foil is stamped to one of one white box one of one you might also see the green foil of the same card stamped to one of one so they there there there are not two platinum foil one of one white boxes every single one in panini keeps a database on what cards they're using to avoid duplication but there will only be you know one of a specific like foil type or card type so it it will be a card that is you could be unique to the market even though there are all of the parallels might have played out over the course of a white box yeah so like in more importantly like i've seen cards come back from manufacturers like i've been sitting in the office when those boxes have been opened and not all of them come back in great condition so like if there is significant damage and they try and i mean there's millions of cards that process through panini and tops and everything like that we're talking seven eight figures worth of like autographs over a year long period like these cards can't all be checked but they have to have some replacement so some sealed product is kept some are you know they have these overs that are signed but i saw an entire box of panini cards sent to tops like by accident by andrew luck back in the day and those were exceptionally valuable cards some of them were tom brady cards even but so like crazy shit happens but should like what is typically ryan you've you've dealt i'm sure getting these in hand what are the value of these cards versus an actual like pack pulled one i mean a lot of times i think it goes with the type of parallel it is i think if you do get the platinum i think that holds more value than like a red or a basic one but they're not gonna be anywhere near what a regular one zero one i kinda compare them and contrast it pretty close to a standard value of what it would do with the twenty five version maybe a little bit kicker it kinda depends on who it is i was lucky enough to get only one i got one but i was one that i was happy to replace in my collection which was the hogan iron chic dual immaculate auto which were numbered at twenty five when they did those i sold mine years ago at the national in cleveland regretted it got this one in i had to lose not one but two passing the torch roman takers but at the end of the day i think the value was there and i compare it to a twenty five version however i thought these autographs are better than the twenty five think maybe that these were maybe signed earlier by both in the run of however they make and extras that they make because of that so i kinda compare it to maybe a little bit better but it also depends on the parallel also hey is there an inscription on there there's a yeah like jameson guy yeah jameson and all that hulk hogan jeez that thing is beautiful i've already on him three times if you want something for me i want something from you that's what i want jameson so so i mean kevin give me your thoughts because you've probably dealt with a good amount of white and black boxes over the years what what do you what do you think well how do you value yours based on whenever you go to value these so white boxes look i'll i'll be straightforward with you all like they're a blessing and a curse right they're a blessing because you're getting a cool card right most of the time they're not giving out you know crappy white boxes it's the nicer cards so awesome yes but the issue is and this is where my sports side ties in a little bit more and make like all of the you know the sheep boys or the roller boys at card shows who are trying to buy cards and trying to buy off comps and everything like this they nobody i shouldn't say nobody those kind of people don't want these cards and so white boxes you know to me more so lineup as they are collectors cards and there is a value but it's not one of those where you know there's gonna be people knocking down the door to get that copy right and so what i've usually done when i've gotten white boxes that i don't particularly wanna keep is you know just let the market dictate and i know that's scary for some people but most of the time when i get white boxes i run them at auction and sort of let let the market go where it but ryan i i did agree with you know with your multiplier of sort of look at the one you have and go based on that the numbered version a little bit less but you know some people really care about the platinum foil some people don't care at all you know and i don't know it's tricky and it'll be interesting to see with these because there there were quite a few yeah there were a ton and the the other interesting thing is when you look at like some of the most critical you know wwe panini on card sets those number sets in immaculate right yep now how do you feel if like oh it was one that was number two two and oh but now there's two more because there's white boxes right like does does the fact that it's a white box even matter there because you know there are four becky lynch collectors and it's only number to two and now these other two people are fighting out you know for one yeah and they republic and so it it's sort of but then the the the mindset of a wwe collector brings us into a really unique situation here that had this you know been the nba license or the nfl license playing out this way i i don't think we we sort of are asking the same thing yeah and i think people are gonna be more satisfied in wwe than they would be in other sports because it could have been something a lot worse but and it could have been another person because panini obviously looked at my account and saw that all of my pending redemptions were for one person and sent me two white boxes with becky lynch cards in there that i was greatly appreciative of so i think like those types of situations were able to happen and i think kevin's point from before about everybody has their person really sort of played out here let's talk briefly about the flawless cards because this like we're this is major speculation so just a a caveat here like panini obviously has to keep some product back of every print run topps does it upper deck does it like they've done it since you name it in the licensing document it calls out like damage replacements and qc stuff because panini has to have agreement from their licensors that they're gonna hold product back and not sell it and i think like there's a whole like slew of questions that popped up logo diamonds did go out like multiple people posted on facebook that they got flawless logo diamonds one of one cards that everybody has been chasing and people are like where did these cards come from have they been holding it this whole time no what ended up happening likely was they had unopened cases of flawless whether that was twenty or a hundred or two hundred we're not sure but they kept back a portion of the print run just in case somebody was shipped a box they're all hand packed with maybe the two diamond cards and no autograph or who knows what was in that smaller box maybe one of the cards fell out as it was being put in who knows they have to replace that sometimes with either live cards or actual sealed product and so they have to keep it on on hand and that they had prism they had select retail i mean a lot of stuff was like tiger stripes kabooms downtowns you name it three count like all of this stuff was sitting in a warehouse somewhere unable to be sold because they don't have a license unable to be done anything with because they haven't had agreement on how to process these things so i think they opened it and i think they opened it and just decided we're gonna use these cards to make people whole which i think is not just a best case scenario i think that that is above a best case scenario in a lot of cases but it did pull some cards that i think people were chasing and i think that i mean i got the one of one flawless becky lynch that obviously i bought into quite a few breaks chasing that card and like it wasn't it was in a case that was sealed at panini so i mean like people are upset about that but guys it's part of the way the hobby works you need to have this stuff ready to go and it's part of the license so panini can't sell this product like they're not they if they had a choice trust me they would wanna get every last case on the market and hit those revenue targets and and exceed them so that they can report back to their licensors and say hey look we sold everything but because they have to keep this portion back like yes it it presents a unique situation for collectors who want the cards in those boxes but also i've seen them pull you know product kits out of a qc they they put them back in packs like they will go and back to the pack out facility which is done by a third party and they'll put those cards back into packs so i think like certain situations dictate certain circumstances this is one that they just flawless came out literally the day after their license ended so like they really had a really unique situation here and i don't think people really understand this because there was a lot of questions and a lot of anger online about where these flawless cards were coming from any commentary from ryan kevin kevin all legal person is right i mean look we're we're all we're all guessing but like it's it's almost like knowing everything that we know right like it's awesome that people got wwe and panini's greatest product ever made as their replacement yes for cards that were not even that set right and like had had they turned around and been replacing everything with you know revolution you know it's damned if you do damned if you don't right because if it's like oh look we have all these revolution on card autos that are unnumbered that we could just replace stuff with i i don't know how it plays out we will likely you know never know how it plays out because i think once panini closes the door with these redemptions wwe is gonna be a a you know banned word in their facility but like but like yeah they were between a rock and a hard place and i think to your point right everybody saw the language in their agreements that they had to hold product back right like and i think you know it's always like looking at it from both ends like if you're a collector now and that logo gems hit the market because it was you know given out as a replacement like now you have a chance to own that card it might have just sat in a it might have just sat in a factory forever right and so like look i my favorite wwe story is like i entered thirty something breaks looking for that bloodline booklet you know before having to finally buy one because i never hit it like it's weird that somebody would go into the mindset of like i entered all these breaks chasing the you know blank logo gem and you know it was in like the likelihood of you hitting it was one in the case run anyway correct product run anyway and so like yes it sucks that it wasn't there right and it it didn't get it got packed out it didn't get shipped out i think that's the biggest difference it got packed out they did not purposely hold stuff back and say we're not gonna put these big chase cards in a problem yeah it wasn't like on purpose yeah right it's it's it's no we have a facility that has i don't know five thousand cases right unfortunately that logo gems was in case number four thousand nine hundred and ninety seven that was against the back wall and never got you know shipped out but but it may not have been opened either like you ship it out to people there are people that are holding cases of wall so like just ryan jamieson all the guys we always talk about in this podcast not as many as i should i ripped too many but yeah so they they have positions in product like people it's it's like pokemon like the sealed market in wwe has become very volatile because people are holding product breakers want this stuff everybody wants this stuff i want this stuff it's like so there's this demand and panini is in like you said rocking a hard place so i think there's gonna be a lot of anger on this no one is ever gonna be able to to put their personal situation aside to say yes this is what happened but that's why we wanna get on this podcast we're being very positive about this because i think we recognize that this could have been a lot worse like so much worse and like we're looking at it from the perspective of that there are gonna be other podcasts and other people who are very upset about this and they have every right to be like those viewpoints are valid i think we always wanna focus on the why as much as the how on this podcast because it provides perspective that people are usually not privy to right ryan yeah i mean go back to this talking about this volus let's talk about this is dried up you the singles were basically dried up at this point the product's been out for almost two years mhmm and you just can't find this stuff anymore so to get this back on the market to get these guards out i love it i think it's awesome that's how it played out they could have just said no we're gonna hold it or hey somebody could have been scandalous and grabbed some cases took it out and sold it kinda deal but they're getting this back into the hobby great point where it matters the most important thing of this is we we love everything that panini did for wrestling and i love what topps is doing but the fact that kevin said wwe will never mention panini again is sad because this is the official end it is over unless hell freezes over like triple h and c and punk coming back together i don't forever see a future of panini and wwe ever again which is unfortunate because we saw some incredible cards some incredible things come out of it oie greatest arguably the greatest wrestling card product in all time and flawless but hey it's back on the market now we're all my i'm sure kevin adam mine several people search engines are w w b flaws right now immaculate romans you're watching this stuff because you're looking to see if anything resurfaces or sorry surfaces for the first time and i think it's great i at the end of the day i i love flawless i hoard a lot of it you guys know that i've hoarded it for years i've ripped a lot of it so it's awesome to see more of it and i hope more people reach out to us because like hey i got my stuff filled here's flawless here yeah i got some flawless coming to my store hit me up i wanna buy as much as this floss as i can because in a year from now you ain't gonna find it again it may be six months from now you're not gonna yeah we'll talk about that here but one thing i did you did just mention that i i just popped into my head now and then we'll move on a lot of people didn't get to be in these breaks like they were expensive like buying into flawless breaks were not cheap and there are people who had chronicles redemptions replaced with flawless cards so you may not have had you may not have had an opportunity to get into a flawless break now you have a flawless card in your collection we'll get into what that means here in a minute with the values and stuff go ahead light bulb in my head remember there's no redemptions in flawless so you never had a flawless redemption you never had a flawless so you're getting flawless card for right sticker chronicles yeah basically crazy yeah that's a huge w and i think like most people are not thinking about it like that because they wanted their sticker auto triple h from chronicles out of ninety nine but getting it replaced with something like stone cold steve austin or whatever from the best wwe product of the era is insane right so alright last thing what if collectors are not happy and we're gonna go through this really quickly because i think we've addressed the rest of this like i've had people call in who were unhappy i i've talked to a few of my friends who were unhappy and called in this is final so they've received all the same message from puneet no one is getting anything different if you call in and you say i'm not happy sorry like they they are not gonna change anything there's too much logistics involved with getting this out i've not seen anybody make any headway this is final it is what it is and as as good or bad as that might be so just i don't think that there's much recourse people have for what they got unfortunately will venting on social media accomplish anything i think is the real question that most people are dealing with now kevin says bring it on keep it coming he wants to be a presenter david please keep doing it please he's skipping watching raw and smackdown right now just to watch facebook correct and my wife like i'll be laying in bed my wife will be like what are you giggling at and i'm just like oh this guy who has two seven dollar redemptions who's mad that he got a flaw a flawless solruka like i'm just she's like you're crazy but no it's it's venting on so look at the end of the day whatever you have to do to bring yourself to terms with the fact that you get what you get and you don't get upset like it's it's whatever you gotta do to do that go ahead and if that means going on lesson we learned very young in life right and if that means going on facebook and and asking the chat if you got cooked or if that means you know going on facebook and saying that you talk to your friend at you know steve moe and harry's law firm and you think a class action is in order here but if if you write like whatever you need to do to to bring yourself closure on this like because again as as we've all sort of drilled down it's closure ladies and gentlemen like there is there is nothing else coming of this yeah and we're making light of this situation but there were people who posted some of the dumbest things i think i've ever seen and like there were some dumb things posted in twenty twenty two when prism was eleven hundred dollars a box there's some dumber things this week but there are other people who legitimately have a gripe right like they they did have cards and and they didn't get what they needed and now those people we understand and we we feel bad for but if you're like they deserve they deserve to feel angry and and they're gonna be angry and panini recognizes that because you can't make everybody happy but the people who are you know that kevin's referring to they're all over the place too yes no they're yeah there there are a ton of people who who you know who i've seen and it did look like they got the short end of the stick or like you know like and again like it's if you're not an autograph collector or if you're an autograph collector and you get a downtown instead of getting an autograph right like there's there's it's impossible to make somebody to make everybody happy i should say and like perfect segue perfect segue here hello because let's let's talk about what you do with the cards that you get and you have the cards in hand now what do you do is it and i and these are these are two people who on this podcast and me i don't this is not my area because i hoard becky lynch like this doesn't really apply to me but like is it a good is it a good idea to sell what you've got now number one number two like should people recognize the brand hierarchy of chronicles versus flawless like we were just talking about like how are you approaching this and we'll start with ryan because you are a flawless hoarder you just said like is it a good idea to sell what you have right this second i mean it depends on your financial position where you're at if you're hey i i really could use the money right now then yes you know selling it could be a priority however if you have an immaculate championship glory acetate roman reigns you probably should be holding it regardless of what that one one two twenty five hundred i'm assuming we're talking about shield it was a shield okay it was a shield okay gotcha so but still i mean these are cards that everybody's more than twenty five people are gonna want one of these cards let's be honest there's people holding these sets and they're they're out now and then they're never gonna surface again after this so i think you gotta pick and choose like you said chronicles sell roman reigns right now i mean the all these romans are on card i i mean i'm all about holding every roman right now because but i'm in a different position where i want them at my booth in the national if i elect to sell right now so i think you gotta take the purchase perspective of where they're at as in their life or the collectability but i'm more of a sit back and hold now if i got like a downtown yeah i'm gonna sell it downtown if i get a kaboom i ain't selling a kaboom you know these are just me food for thoughts how i think in my head when we buy on a regular basis what do i wanna hold what do i wanna sell i have to make these decisions every day so you're at a crossroad right now and it depends where you're at financially and what you wanna do kevin yeah i mean to to ryan's point one of one of the things that i stress sort of you know as as being in front of the shop every day but also being just an avid collector of way too many different things and people ask me you know what are you buying what are you selling and i say you know my advice is catered towards me because i know everything about my financial situation and i know everything about what my goals are for collecting now for a lot of people you're gonna see these big numbers on these romans and you're gonna say oh shoot that's appealing right and if you need to sell because you have to pay rent or you have to pay your mortgage or like that should always always always take priority over cards right right absolutely but the one thing that i like to tell people is if you are in a position where you are using this cards for fund month or for fun money or if cards are funding cards right the thing you need to ask yourself is if you sell a roman for two thousand dollars like what are you doing with it right and if you're putting it towards an eighty two all star hogan like cool that's an awesome idea right like that's probably a a sound decision right like or a flare right but if you're if you're putting it towards you know are we talking about adam is adam selling this roman to buy i'll go get it exactly today possibly but like but if if you're like oh i wanna sell all my romans to buy tatum paxley like okay cool that might not be the best idea if you're a tatum fan sure or if you gotta go join a bunch of breaks with that money and get a bunch of universe based cards in the process i mean so right and yeah so yeah that's it it really all depends on your financial situation i think like look at the card and say you know if i don't have this card anymore will i lose sleep tonight or if i wanted this card six months from now will i be able to get it right and if you have a roman out of ten with a nasty patch like the answer is no because ryan or myself or any of the other you know big guys you know jamieson whoever else you wanna say like they'll buy it and it won't go anywhere or the next time you see it it'll be ten x what you sold it for right yeah but i think i think there's a there's a there's a really really key point there for sure yeah good good call i mean think about kevin and i as we have businesses that could do these type of things this is not our personal money when it comes to these type of decisions this is business type decisions that we have to make so our funding is a little bit different now the collecting side kevin collects a lot of everything a lot on right every every time i talk to kevin i find out something new he collects so yeah about a five thousand dollars latam card two nights ago like i was just every time i talk i'm like what i'm like man you're you're a true hobbyist i love it so i think like i'll i'll say this it is really hard to hold on to money in this hobby especially with how expensive things are today flawless to this point has been a game of supply and demand there's been a ton of demand and it grows because people like us talk about it all the time like ryan and i talk about it on this podcast a lot and now there's a flood of it right so the supply and demand for a short period of time is gonna be lopsided that will not be the case long term these cards have lives of ten fifteen years of wrestling careers and post careers where the rock is fifty five and sixty and still coming back like guys it really depends on what you wanna do if you're spending this money to go buy into brakes like that is a to ryan's point like really evaluate if that's really the direction you wanna go because you're trying to pull cards like this not like you have them in hand just put them in a box put them in a safe give them to somebody and forget about them and ten years from now it's likely they're gonna be worth more is it guaranteed no one thing i wanna remind people if you're listening and you've got some roman redemptions in just remember roman did not have any autographs and flaws so the immaculate autos are probably are his best cards his best cards and they are the closest thing to flawless immaculate is just a step under my opinion so really consider that when you think about all these false cards are doing these crazy numbers now let's compare and contrast immaculate to that because we did not get grace with roman and false because flawless does not do redemptions so therefore there were no becky autos and there were no roman autos so think about that so i think like keep in mind the supply and demand is gonna be out of whack for probably four to six months if not maybe a little bit longer depending on how the market performs but the demand for this product will be historic so just you look at what exquisite does for basketball now like that hasn't been on the market since two thousand nine ten like those cards are grails at this point i don't think that flaw flawless wrestling is probably not gonna reach that level like don't kid yourself but like there's a significant portfolio of flawless cards that are probably gonna be worth significantly more five to ten years from now if you don't wanna wait that long which is understandable i'm not going to because i have other things i need to do with the money like like alexa bliss who else is this basement hopefully i have to i have to do my i have to do my basement yeah so i think like there's a lot of stuff here that you can be invested in other places maybe you wanna buy some stocks maybe you wanna make alternate investments diversify your portfolio fine we're not investment advisers but we are wwe card experts in that respect to a point where at least i'm not the smartest wrestling guy on the planet but i can i am i've had an enormous amount of experience in looking at the market and the data behind flawless and other legacy sets like immaculate like impeccable so on and so forth those cards do rarely find a lack of demand what they do find is a heavy lack of supply so just keep that in mind right now is not representative because there's about to be a hundred prism roman reigns on card autographs on ebay that will not be on ebay you know six months from now and i'll give you this example before we move on because i gotta i i wanna finish this and we're already an hour and sixteen minutes in wait we didn't get this in an hour again no so you knew that going in so don't give it to me this i was gonna ask for it i was like i kevin's a good one there's no way we're doing this in an hour no absolutely not i did my but i walked before we're good i'm good yeah so i would say like you're about to see a flood of these cards and the value is gonna dip buying is a good idea if you're a a an investor but i think like there's so many reasons why the supply and demand of this is gonna change and if you look at the way flawless flooded the market in twenty twenty four because people were ripping cases and just dumping the cards on ebay that's happening right now look at what has happened in those two years it's only taken two years and it's just gone completely up the other end of it i wanna go through some quick sales and then we'll end it some early sales on this immaculate stuff is surprising a past and present roman reigns gold autograph is going for sixteen hundred bucks these are very popular cards i was not shocked there was a a a championship glory that sold for twenty five hundred but it had like a hundred shield bids on it so i'm not even gonna talk about that people are using that as a comp don't use that as a comp but like this is a crazy card i have a a number of these beckys and they're they're becoming some of the top sets in immaculate agreed yeah hundred percent they keep every time i look one up like a bailey used to be thirty bucks i think she's a hundred and something bucks now you know it's yeah crazy to see what these have done but again to this like i said to roman there's no flawless autos the gold ice roman reigns to five this is the retail parallel that came out of the mega boxes for select in twenty twenty four sold for one thousand twenty five dollars on card this is absolutely gorgeous i think the gold ice is one of the nicest perils the image is incredible that image that image is a top tier card image ever yeah love that so again there's a lot of these select cards he signed a ton of them there were ninety nine forty nine ten five all the way down he signed all of his auto relics for select they're all on card they all look gorgeous and so i think there's a reason to buy these just because they look so fucking cool alright the immaculates the jumbo patch autographs this is one out of twenty five sold for eight hundred dollars i think that's low for the long term here but i've seen a few of them sell at this price there was one that sold at like nine twenty five then it went to eight hundred then you know know there are a couple of sales in between this is depending on the relic because it all depends on the relic even though they're not worn they're not worn mhmm they they they just look cool with bloodline everything or logos or acknowledge me or you name it i think it's this is just a really cool car great image they did a really good job with these yeah last one i think is this the last one oh no i've got a few more the immaculate marks of greatness this is another one of those sets that's on the come up there's a number of people that are collecting this set because the images are all awesome i think this is probably one of the lower quality roman images because it's not like the way that the other ones are kinda zoomed in there's it's a whole thing but this one the red one out of twenty five sold for seven hundred dollars so these are twenty five cards out of twenty five selling for like seven hundred dollars i think that's again low long term short term they're probably gonna dip and fluctuate a little bit i'm curious do you like have you guys seen the other ones from these sets like they've been going up a little bit as well yeah i think the charlotte's two fifty three i mean they're all going up it all depends obviously the image too i do like this image i know it's not much of roman i like the the haman in the background so yeah yeah i i i really like this image i thought it was really cool with getting now if it would've just been a roman like that i probably would be like okay that's not cool but just hayman back there holding those two belts just legendary yeah it it captures it captures the you know the the spectacle of the entrance i do like this one yep anytime when you can kinda put this to an era because i'm just episode of of the thousand day celebration or whatever i think is this photo okay prism has been fluctuating all over the place the golds were signed so like he he doesn't have on card gold those were sticker autos that were sent out or were in the product i can't remember but the reds and maybe the blues i can't remember were signed reds are selling about two fifty to two hundred dollars but this i i'm not a fan of the the twenty thirteen autograph design as a whole but the image on this card is awesome and they're on card i think honestly i'd at at two hundred and fifty bucks a card i would be buying as many of these that hit the market this that's a clean card clean autograph i i i would have thought that that was a tough one for for a sticker set too that was supposed to be stick everybody else this is the only on card yeah the only on card i think that needs to be taken into consideration too there there were no on card prism autographs the entire run so all three years all sticker it's that way in a lot of sports so on card prism autographs rarely exist this is a huge deal i think kobe had a few of them and a few others i'm gonna go with roman hate stickers and probably just said if i'm doing this i'm gonna sign these cards as quick as i can i mean six are kinda pain in the butt you know let's be honest oh they're very tiny and actually yes the long slowest so if he could just go in because these guys wanna fly and if they're doing that they're try you know they're trying to stay on it you know they're just flying cena you've seen his videos yeah he does not like signing small things no he likes big markers so i think that this is a john cena royal rumble autograph out of ten it's sold like it's one of the replacement cards because it's sold like you can tell but and if you see it one with the panini customer service sticker on top it's part of this replacement stuff usually flawless is gonna have a lot of cards with those stickers on them be careful because they are easily removed and you can still monkey with the cards but just remember this one is a john cena royal rumble autographs gold sold for a thousand dollars this used to be a four hundred dollar card bingo i was gonna see a three to five hundred dollar card all day used to and i used to open cases to get pissed when we got a john cena because i'm like it's like three to five hundred dollars we need to get in happens man barely he barely covered the cost of his spot in the break like he was like three hundred dollars per break spot and like if you hit him you were like alright well i know he hits the most but it's barely covering you know what i paid for a break i mean i i like the fact that orton was either a box topper or inside i love that because he was both he was the only guy yeah because like it was cena hogan taker centimeters punk stone cold and then was that in hogan right those are the box toppers with the order right they were very limited yeah it was either you would get one of those cody cody was cody right cody for your autos and that was it so obviously at the time like punk was probably one you didn't really want and then cena was but now we're talking punk is still low punk is still a two hundred and fifty dollar card yeah but i think over time the demand and the supply once he retires like because punk is at the tail end of his career not the beginning there's three of the ladies at the beginning i know right to be honest so last one here hogan a thousand dollars for a summer slam autograph out of twenty these are the blue ones great photo i mean like again steve pellegrino who picked all the photos for this man he did such a good job during the entire run of panini shout out to him i call him out as much as possible he works for topps now so he's working in on a whole bunch of stuff for topps and hopefully the photo quality will improve as a result of his employment there but this hogan man like there there are not many on card hogan autographs that will come up at a low price anymore thinking that this is a flawless autograph out of twenty for a thousand bucks ten years from now it seems like oh why is nobody just scooping these up and to the fact of the matter is a lot of people are so if you have or you were given a stone cold a hogan you know an undertaker like the goat market is exploding and i think those are the cards that people are dying for none of the star swatches have really sold recently those were heavy replacements as well but people are buying them before they're hitting ebay because people are chasing those cards like nobody's business says the man in the middle here and i think like those star swatches are incredible cards like all of flawless is incredible panini did a tremendous job and the fact they're giving these out as replacements like we said this is your one chance to get them this is the only two people that got any flawlessness from me that for when we ripped and it was jamieson because he had a couple one on ones of orton and seth i needed and steve mach needed a ria so i made sure he got it so besides that kept them all okay so we've got we're about ninety minutes in no way believe it or not ninety minutes thank you kevin thank you so much for joining us here it was wonderful to have your perspective as always i love talking to you about wrestling cards if you're not familiar with roadshow cards go on their website roadshow cards dot com visit new york roadshow if you're in the nyc area it's a it's a great shop kevin's a great guy to work with anywhere else you wanna pimp here kevin for your social media or anything else you wanna call out no i mean roadshow cards is basically on every social media platform loop whatnot you know fanatics collect all those everything we're at all the major shows come say hi sell me wrestling cards i promise i don't bite but yeah no this was this was just abs this was absolutely a blast and you know i'm gonna i'm gonna go scroll the facebook comments and there you go can we can we address the elephant in the room kevin where is your minnesota vikings jersey yes i didn't i didn't get the memo guys i have a randy moss jersey at home oh man i should've told you to get a memo that it was minnesota vikings tuesday well we're well when they win if i they win i got a text the game second game was over and i was watching okay wear your jersey from adam i was like well no shit i've gotta wear my jersey like i've gotta bring it in fair i i wear them on sundays it's like another excuse to bring it to work and wear it again you weren't on earlier i got my kirk cousins on who's also three and o love that what a world that we live inside note to go off on a tangent where jameis winston marcus mariota and kirk cousins are all winning and case keenum and case keenum are all i feel good we turned i didn't want them to win yeah so i think just to wrap put a bow on this awesome to have this discussion hopefully this gave people a ton of context and information but man all of us love the topps era but panini is just right now on a different level i think it will be for a long time topps has a lot of time to make up for it and they likely will but seeing the end of this is sad as ryan said and it was good to at least get some of this out but guys like when you are on facebook and you are venting on social media like recognize that there's a lot of why to that how and i just i hope that this was at least contextual and understanding there next week we'll we'll sort of circle back to our normal format and do it the the way we've usually done it but format wow yeah of course but it was great talking with you guys ryan anything you wanna do to close this out just from a panini no man i wanna say thank you again to kevin for coming on man kevin has been a great friend to both of us for many years i got to actually see him two or three weeks ago in dallas me too yeah i i got to see him in badatics and nashville it's always good to have kevin on he is full of knowledge and he has more issues than adam and i combined with collecting right i find out every time how much has been owed thank you kevin for taking time out of your busy day coming on this hour and a half long podcast today i knew it would be so thank you buddy i appreciate it absolutely alright and with that we will see you next week guys thanks again gulp see you later